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Future of Work: How can Germany be a leader in the Digital Economy?

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and the and of and and but
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few uh good afternoon everyone for those of you who have been in here in this room for the
past all we just had a very hot and lively debate on the future of work but the labor ministry and 11 is the uh and the and others and and the session we going to talk about the future of work as well but more from our that's a comparative perspective so we're going to look at what's going on in the US what's going on in Germany and trying to answer the question how can Germany actually be a leader in the digital age and so on when you look at this at this debate in Germany you Betty defined 2 strands of debate on the 1 side you find those saying that you bear and all these platforms they basically evil and so we have to hinder them to our disseminate even further within our economy and on the other side you have this star the bubble talking about IP and why and Europe is not producing the world's next Facebook or Google but I think that's basically the more important question we have to ask is how do we basically implement these new business models that are on developing into our set up of a social market economy and this is the debate we're going to have now we don't have uh 3 speakers and we're going to have Steven Hill and we don't have an Alex and we're going to have and Anchor hustle and I would like to invite them on the state so Stephen I get out of it he's going to stage schools the fact into the just
some brief words of off introduction just take a seat take anything from movement the OK so now we have the Stephen just published a book in
English it's called the start of it is you want on the internet economy land attached any of the set of illusion how the Internet economies ruining our welfare states and Stephen was a host bring Fellow at American Academy in Berlin uh last year is a political scientist the training is now a political journalists and adviser he's a columnist for the is not for uh decides and and he's a very interesting person to talk to when you're interested in what's actually going on the secondary what's known in Germany and how the the to relate to each other and what can 2 sites so to say learn from each other and that we have on costs horses a professor of public policy at the medicine of governance here in Germany and the she's the i think Adamic director of the as which is an independent think tank of funded by the inspectors to don't and have and analogous she's the founder and CEO of what victory of forgery is a personal and shopping our platform men writes that she was part of the rocket Internet ecosystem so to say and um my idea is that we get to it like this we're going to have a very brief introduction by Steven I'm laying out what his book and this book with this book is basically about and then we're going to have a response by anchor and by on and then I come up with a couple of comments and a couple of questions from my side and they would like like to open up to the floor and we're going to have a debate on all of us together so the question is how can Germany and be a leader in the digital age and Steven how can generally be a leader yeah OK here I would be given specific instructions on how to hold the microphone so if on how could you review digitally well you know I I was uh the book came out of being here Jeremy for about half year after year last year talking many many people I kept hearing you know where the German Facebook's The German apples and Google's of you Germany needs to be more innovative Germany's to be more like Silicon Valley and as someone who lives in Silicon Valley my reaction was kind of wild are you sure about that I realize that not everybody really knows what the fullness of Silicon Valley is the pros and cons the certainly some good things there are a lot of
downsides as well so I you know I need for example 7 10 starts in Silicon Valley fail 9 and 10 never make any profit but there's just a lot of money so it's basically a casino where a lot of money being thrown around to find that Facebook or that that on the number or whatever are actually risk is as profitable rules 3 billion dollars last year on trying to find that rare company that actually makes it through and I can every placed in Germany really afford to have such an imprecise on policy
of promoting business development were 710 10 failing I'm not sure that's the best use I going to that might work quite well why talk about what what history have that would really be allowed strengths and 1 other thing the jury has is quite remarkable and I think is underappreciated sometimes because you know as Germans you stages like America's we creature we have that is going on is the middle stuff the middle stand at you know it actually creates 60 % of the jobs in might Mittelstand might I hope you can understand my terrible German Mittelstand and it's the small medium enterprises in Germany is is is millions of them they create 60 thousand jobs they
are they are but 56 per cent of economic output a huge amount export industry of Germany and this trade surpluses from the Millstone stuff and and so you to be but yet the middle stands Chollet challenge because I had this digital area is coming and how the upgrade how they innovate well is the way to create a hybrid between the start up world and the Middle Stone the cultures are actually 2 quite different in certain ways but I believe it's possible like that
in my book i go into some of what I think needs have that could occur as important because you know you can you have become like Silicon Valley no it really cannot injury really needs to find its own path its own way in that regard it could have a vibrant start-up community of Berlin has surpassed London Paris and Stockholm than others as a leading start up city in in Germany in in Europe and yet but that's just the beginning there's not enough in middle stage funding is let's start up funding including from the government not a lot of middle state funding for the start ups on and but in addition to reason why 710 Silicon Valley starts fails because a certain point you realize that is just no customers they care enough about this product or service being produced at the price point you have to produce it to be profitable and you see that same thing in Germany a lot of companies of failed because of a lack of good ideas it's hard to find that the idea that scales and becomes in becomes important so it it crane is hybridization between the start-up world and on the and of the in the middle star on it at what I call is your procedures on rocket middle stuff how to create a hybrid between something like rock unit which is good execution good scaling that's a good innovation and rocketed creates you know copycats of Amazon and spur of scales them in different ways around the world and sells it back to Amazon and make their money 100 days and then on but this is not exactly innovation new product the service but it is execution it is scaling up that's what I did the middle son is good as well so I think this kind of merger could be but that's all I want to talk about this is what I want to talk about the that was surprising in looking at your reverses United States like here all again a lot he was in all other things like digital economy over a
RBN be yeah that's happening here a little bit but it's not happening as much as in the United States and the more I looked into that I actually found not only is it not true but that government of the statisticians and the way you track these things is actually not doesn't appear to be as accurate as you as you think and there's actually happening more than you realize but also at the outset that the if there's 1 main message in my book it's that Germany needs to figure out if you play a leadership role in the world and figuring out how do you make part time jobs into good jobs that's really the goal that we have not because if you
look at the trend in labor market with its United States Europe Germany what we see is in the 2008 2009 collapse in the 2010 eurozone crisis we lost a lot of permanent full-time jobs In fact Germany has fewer permanent full-time jobs as a percentage of the work the number of jobs Germany today they had in 2000 Germany has been better than so many other countries in Europe in the United creating some middle wage jobs but still not nearly enough that it did did the hit against the jobs has come in the middle wage jobs but would even within German goes in wage jobs are more part-time temp jobs soul of self-employed I you know the subcontracting inverted frog I think in my german but cut types of jobs this is the trend in the labor markets and yet the policies seem to be designed around properly full-time jobs device book in other things have been put out there and so for more more workers they are dealing with you know they don't have enough work that some workers like the flexibility but unfortunately they also the the security and it's kind of interesting when you're young you 25 26 the flexibility seems great you have enough money to 0 for your red you have you have enough but but you know to to go to the coffee shop you have enough to have some beers at nite with your mates are all these sorts of things that you get into your thirties you get older you want more income you want more security stability of some people try to say that the you know the millennials
as the caller some new post-capitalist generation that are you know they're they're they're cool with having flexibility in this type of digital economy and you know going from job to job where you know you could describe every young generation the post world war 2 error
that way reality is as you get older you want more stability more security more income but the jobs that are gonna provide that are disappearing and that's the that's the challenge and what's debut in place with by these precarious jobs part-time 10 of contract job so as self-employed so the question to me is how do you take those jobs and turn them into good jobs because you know the the the the post world war 2 social contract with the United States URI is predicated around the type of worker who has a single employer and had at you know got their their wage there the hours they're and their job security and the Social Security benefits through that employer that's which disappeared and I don't see it coming back here we have really talk about the impact of automation of robots and all these sorts of things how that's coming faster so that's that have even greater impact so how do you know make it so that you more more workers are working from multiple employers today not 1 employer and yet by doing that they don't have the social security and some of this is that the of labor protections that we used to have with the old social contract how would make it possible for them to have both of flexibility and security that's the challenge so what I propose in this book is about the creation what I call a portable universal a safety net which is what we call here Social Security whatever you wanna call welfare system and what that means that every
worker would have assigned to her him an individual security account at every business that higher that worker would pay something into this account of up to a certain amount of above the wage that would be prorated to the number of hours of that worker works for that business so let's say a worker works 10 hours a week for certain business that business would pay about a quarter of what a full-time 40 hour week worker would get from a regularly employed full-time job and if that worker had to employers gave that each 10 hours a week they would get 25 % of that need for each 1 of them they got 5 hours a week in a prorated amount and the amount is that great you works out to about 2 3 euros of more per hour and that would allow that worker to have by health care you have the employers have of health care they still to pay their have employers have of pension but you know in worker compositional other workers working in this flexible precarious of of of freelance jobs don't have any kind of access
the injured worker compensation all these sorts of things so it would basically allow these workers to work from multiple businesses and still preserve the security to go with the flexibility and here's the other thing is right now you know for businesses let's say I'm in business and you're in business in Europe is raw competing against each other and you're hiring freelancers and contractors nonhierarchic point of full-time workers you're saving about 20 to 25 % on your labor costs compared to me that puts pressure on me to do what you're doing this last like the steroids of of the economy and it's like you know the toward a France as much as as as more more by art taking steroids and doing the juice than those who are doing it feel the pressure will I guess I have to do it as well to compete well by making it so that every employer is going to have to pay for that Social Security regardless of how that worker works it takes away their incentive to hire the part to begin with that the employer might figure well at a higher to a 3 part time is not as high 1 person full-time because I can build a better relationship because it's not see me anything in labor cost so all of these types of things I go into my book I have just been wrap up by saying that but I think that
you know me Isis's face we elected Donald Trump right so in many ways the leadership on these sorts of issues even the United States is suffering from them as much in some cases worse there is I think of the United States it's going to come from places like Germany and this reason her journey to do it because you know when you look at the Germany actually has up about 50 % more part-time in temp workers as a percentage of your labor force that we have in the United States you have 2 3 times more workers making minimum wage then we have here the United States so it's not just a question is that you know that's a neoliberal America and and you know reason like that as I kept hearing more and more in
factory is more like this and you realize and you're not counting actually for reasons I go into my book I have to do the household survey and all these sort of things like going to drink unit is interest that kind of nitty-gritty detail but just know that you're not Chinese is 1 study found that that is actually 90 % more of these so-called independent workers in germany than what official government sources say 90 % more so we introduce new world of of labor Digital Economy and really have to figure out the way forward to preserve so you don't have good part time jobs as well as good full-time jobs to create both look and flexibility as well as security thank you
like um in the book they like 2 2 major arguments what was being when 1 is that innovativeness is the region problem that like a couple of things to work on but that's basically doable and then the 2nd argument
is that the Greek economy is already Germany we just don't see the numbers and perhaps
as a social scientist can comment on this this is like to the case on but because the economy is already here and Germany is becoming a freelance nation and then we have to adapt our system of social security and welfare labor market regulation to this kind of new reality we have to let's say softly update our German model so we have to say so
as you have already discovered this is a very complex book because it ranges from Silicon Valley and the way the big economy works to the term the weight economy and that's not an obvious connection and I think we should make this obvious connection because they the the way it's set up this book and it's a really interesting book by the way it's set up is to say that Silicon Valley and the
indicate economy produces a low-wage economy in Silicon Valley in California and that makes it unsustainable so we do see a lot of social problems we see no wages homelessness we see also kinds of social problems in California as a result of the become economy and that is the result because you have a winner-takes-all economy you have some people very few people get very rich will drive up prices and you have a lot of people who will be very low wages and who cannot afford the rent that is the the the argument and then he moves on to comparing that to Germany and he sees the German economy works very differently and that is where the middle son comes in it says there's a lot of innovation in the middle sound in the middest and is the backbone of the German economy but at the same time we have the same social phenomena if we look at it socially if we compare our labor markets California to Germany of which to compare the low-wage economies social problems we see that we have similar figures and similar numbers when it comes to social problems and then there there's the question why is that if we don't have the big economy why do we have a similar degree of of of low wages and and low-wage economy so that is what I take from the book and that makes it interesting because you know
you do have very 2 very different economies but you have to similarities and when it comes to the wages for me when I look at it and I share a not of the analysis which is made their share a lot of these assumptions I wouldn't say that the peak economy has arrived to Germany in a very similar way I think a very different big economy a part of the of the Greek economy has arrived to Germany and the other part which is the reason for all know wages and social problems have nothing to do with the cake economy the reason why Germany has a lot of social problems and the big low-wage sector which is you know above average in the EU and which is sent to some extent bigger
given in the United States is nothing to do with technology and has nothing to do with the cake economy but it is to do with policies and policies which were enacted about 15 years ago when the labor market was deregulated when I'm not of different ways of hiring people were introduced into the economy but that has very little to do with the cake Economy and Technology 1 aspect I would like to make now on on this relationship is really that I would like to see on the causality the other way round because Steven says in a look at the big economy and look at the many problems it creates I would say look at the low-wage economy and look at the social problems we have in the economy and look at all the problems that will create fall
ask coping with technology and for coping with digitalization I would say that the main problem which we have is that we now have already a polarized labor market and this polarization which has to do with wages but also with skills makes it increasingly difficult for us to cope with the generic to digitalization
and if we want to benefit from it we have to make sure that we have to stop polarization of skills because we need well trained people and we need well paid people who can deal with technology thanks and Stephen already addressed
the the rocket way to run companies on is there also a rocket way to envision
society because of and understanding right you get from founder of an internet company rest of that company delivering clothing to young man ordering this clothing wire the apps spot us so it's not necessarily obvious where's the link to how do you organize a buffer state so do you think about these issues do you think there is some kind of responsibility of of how running this business models of how the start-up ecosystem in Germany is developing with regards to where we stand as a society when it comes to labor and social issues so what
what was the role of the span of the 4 questions of 0 that's a good question to me a United me understand and I see myself actually being more in the representative of the start of world and that the business side of things here and amend them maybe maybe a few things on this I mean having rocketed and the U US is seen very negatively and sends self just reducing copycats and I mean I'm not working for rocket
anymore I used to work there for 2 years and so I need to say that it there was a very good school for me to go through this action learning the execution side of things but there was a well something that I was actually missing and that's why I then decided to farm owned company not within the ecosystem but to do it completely online on my own together was my cofounder and and the thing that was missing was a certain like culture working culture that I want to see in my own my own company and and I mean by now about vitreous 5 years so we have and 300 employees and of course base as well as a big responsibility that I feel and that I half from my team and and for my business than that I take very very serious say i.e. it and I I do think it's it's so you can you can learn a lot from working in like different environments and it took a lot from my working experience for for rocket but I think so form for me the way was to really combine this was was my own view on the world and my own view on culture and then and working responsibility that I have formed from a team there do you think that that the
way to go forward Stephen is proposing to kind to combine the best of 2 worlds right so the German
Mittelstand which comes to work practices we've just been talking about with the knowledge of this dynamism of the start of the right to think that that that that the way to combine the 2 and this this the way to go forward for German
I mean and I have from my perspective must say I have high respect our in front of them at the standards and friend of someone like who was who was running a business that might be 100 years old and later founded by the grandfather sense on into force and we're now with lobster dread the size that we could frequently asked I you research done now and every time I get this question I said 0 my god no we're not and and the reason why it another there's are where my is there in the in and this is but but but the reason why I don't see us as much as stamps and I don't want to be modest and
and but I think it's it's it's a question of mind set to actually that is dividing the start ups from the meta stand and the the Mittelstand is is thinking about how to preserve the things that has been found in the past by their grandfathers versus the mind set of the start up is hard to disrupt too hard to innovate and how to like drastically think different from them and then I walk all over all fathers and forefathers say and and this is for me the big difference it's not in a number of employees which is defining the movement spanned versus start up a some it's a question of mind set and to be honest if we can recombine to mind mind-sets within 1 company it I'm skeptical thank
you thank you for your time talking about the lowest quality jobs and quality jobs and companies like and as for example when talk to Laura no love cannot come right like the big companies also in Germany providing was kind of
I caring services at home she's basically arguing that we are going to produce the high-quality jobs of the
future right and you as the labor market and social policy expert do you think there's
anything to this argument when they stand on a produces had set of companies are going to produce the high-quality jobs of the future in yes why not
only that there's no I don't I don't think there's any reason why a start up company on in high tech companies shouldn't uh produce high-quality don't I would expect them to to produce high-quality jobs and I don't think that is really because issues that the title of the book of the that sort of a generally ruining the welfare state where the stamped up so it is not a paper so now we're talking about a radical innovations I think that that is the aspect if you have radically innovation and if you have business models of companies that produce an alternative to existing businesses and can drive out other businesses out in out from the market then obviously you eradicate and a number of jobs so if will comes to Germany and is successful here it would have an impact on on taxi and and you know transport businesses and then you you get a radical innovation because you have a completely new business model which you used to have transport services and there you have it you know you have online integrate jobs but also you destruct jobs but whether these new jobs are better than the old jobs so was that it depends entirely on the line of business you in any it depends entirely on what you employ people for I don't know if you know what just after us but I can imagine it is not just in low
quality or unskilled labor and it is rather high quality because you have to you and you know I actually do not know what stuff so I I really don't know but that there is no assumption you know there's no pre assumption that startups lead to peddle or west of the so you would call for differentiation the best work through to stop connected belongs go start pressure that the logistics for a little bit about how this title came about which I think is publishing it on but here's here's on what some of the dangers on there's a company
based in Silicon Valley called of work they have 250 regular employees and they use technology to oversee what 10 million freelancers all over the world and those freelancers are are doing things like or computer programmers software designers translators graphic designers their architects the engineers and is a huge number of occupations and industries on this platform of looking for work and our you know the it's basically labor auction you can go there hire someone and they on the job and you can see the it's going lower and lower you'll see a German worker on they're saying I'd like to make 6 euros an hour for this job you could see a US workers say I'd like to make 7 dollars an hour for his job and his workers from Thailand India the Philippines and I'll take 2 euros an hour for this job and those workers are highly trained have access to technology a copies like out theory and where it's can hire them wherever they are and they produce the product the uploaded to Dropbox
e-mail light on the internet would however they want deliver the product as it used to be outsourced jobs you had to take you to move a plan to another country and that was expensive so it was it was a barrier to doing that now you can outsource jobs just by having a Website you can you can and that's what happened 10 million freelancers on this platform of of work now I are some of the German of researchers in you know Governor fission of others how many German workers are on on the platform up work they say I don't know we don't know we have no idea counting and and so it to be about 20 minutes to 1 the up work website use some filters and find out there's about 18 thousand 800 German workers on this 1 platform to be 20 minutes at the fact that German our research is don't know that that didn't do that 20 minute job shows you that if they don't think it's important but there's no emphasis on it and you know so they just in bottle that 1 platform in your dozens of these platforms
now how many of these workers are there because you know if they're being hired by my employer United States or in India or Russia or wherever you can be sure that that employer is not telling the German government had hired this German and I maybe 5 thousand euros last year working for me they're not telling the during the German government about this the worker probably is needed right of and so the digit government is not really counting these workers and it's not that they don't know how the disfluent I'm trying and yet there is some orientation are trying to the labor unions ED Mattel they're trying to counties workers and some of the studies that are done estimated that there's about a million to 2 million of these sorts of click workers as they're called in Germany so just using conservative numbers if there is no 1 and a half million of these workers but that's about 4 billion euros in income that's not the tract a stopping tax for income purposes that's about 670 million euros that's not going into the health care fund just using conservative numbers so this is serious money and this is just you know it's growing to beginning of what these technologies go to do how these countries the hiring workers to replace permit full-time workers were already seen those trends in the labor markets fewer per full-time jobs today the new worked in 2 thousand more part-time temporary work of your soul self-employed all these sorts of things so I if if enough workers working its way and you're not getting the revenue that's going to undermine the taxes you need for health care for transportation for education for all the social order needs that exist here in Germany and the fact that it cannot be counted as a mention even for 1 of the ways they are other studies because the way the German system works in the US as you would use a household survey some literally calls up people says you know what kind or how you work your 1 job 2 jobs but they only stop at 2
jobs they don't ask you have 3rd 4th jobs in ASR very much about the 2nd job is still using the assumption of permit full-time jobs the old post war to model to get that information about the 1st job but there's a lot of evidence that more workers are working his way and they don't self-report accurately they don't necessarily tell you that they have a 3rd and 4th job unless you really get that information out of them and so other independent researchers have been tracking Germany US and other places of finding that the number of independent workers they're working separate from this permit full-time core employment is in German
90 % higher than what official or government sources say so you know this is a numbers game going on here do we really do we have the methodology to count the ways that people are work on could you think we do and curious I'm on the methodology
and you know that there is more research on counting people welcome platform on people of workers and as you mentioned that I have been I facts to recruit these workers to give them a platform to unionize them attention and I don't think that they that people under this may be of phenomenon we don't think so I think there's an awareness of that and is monitoring going
on on you know how do they develop what is the impact of you know how many people out there and also policy you know the proposal already if you read the bicycle by the government they deal with these issues and they deal with you know how should we ensure freelancers what kind of pension insurance should they have what kind of access to health insurance etc. I had so in in that sense I know I don't think that you know that there's a serious underestimation of the problem going on I think it is it in IIT has come to germany later than the yes so this is a recent phenomenon to impede people stop looking into it and in our research is more recent than in other places but it's not that you know people go is not blind to the phenomenon him and I would say that at all the thicker the question as you said is you know how important do we say this phenomenon is if we have a know 2
million freelance workers in what was self-employed and do not have any increase themselves on a business people but 3 nonsense so in these 2 million people some of them might be ensured through their spouses through their families have other
waves of insurances attention so some of them are really are out in the open you know there are under insured you know they will you know probably will not make a living in the long run they will probably end up as you know pull freelancers and output maybe in 10 years time with this 3 9 that they will still be free Sesame there would be old-age poverty coming from that and then the question is you know these maybe it's some in many as 1 million people so do we design do we need to reform all insurance system to take care of these 1 million people I would say yes you and there's a discussion on you know about this there is a discussion how can we integrate people into pension insurance of course we could but we also know that if they were integrated as everyone else the insurance contributions would be so high that it would deter people to declare their work you know we know that we drive people out of declaring the world because have insurance is incredibly expensive and pension insurance is incredibly it's in constraints so we need to lower
contributions how can we do that can we ask the government to step in and coming out as the government to
make contributions as they do all businesses they can we tax businesses economy there's a discussion among platforms that path from a company's not saying we want to be taxed because we want to give insurances far freelancers but at the moment we cannot do so because if we do so in our
competitors would drive us out of the market because they you know they don't pay insurances so I think this is an ongoing policy debate but I wouldn't be as pessimistic and as negative as you that we will not find the answers when and what left have the gun may
I think that our professor this I think you will but uh the trends or or art are going in a different direction if you have a voice book is predicated for most part on full-time jobs and get the
few peripheral charge of jury now was 2 thousand so let let's leave the technical
argument here I would like to open up to 3 you add 2 2 rounds of of questions please do ask questions please be brief please feel free to address some people on the stage
and and let's do questions in rounds of free so 2 rounds of 3 questions right so all these regions that people like microphones in the middle and on the left side raise your hands if you have any questions and then come to me OK
or to my colleague here so please go there please to approach the people holding the microphone OK the so thank you very much more interesting speech and I have a question because I agree with this hassle and I disagree with Mr. Hill of bits and because you describe a lot of major
economic trends in Germany and and I would fully agree to say that when we look at the technical labor market then we see those trends strengthening someone will freelances but but the way he described it gave me the impression that you describe the major economic trends from the labor market in Germany and therefore I actually fully have to disagree because and we have a lot of part-time jobs in Germany but that is mainly a female probe problems so the structures we have in Germany lead to the consequence that 60 % of the people working in part-time women and not man and and we also have at the moment 1 . 1 million jobs cannot be filled so we have a huge demand for people working and we also have a war on germany that then tries to prohibit free gives workers because you said that's and that if you would have a company you advantages employed freelance people's so it would be cheaper for you because you men then you would save the cost of which costs which is not true because we have a law that prohibits you Iet's you have so-called as shines action is tied so these are all things that are that are in very that makes the view on how Germany in the labor market works very differently from the point of view described
so my question is 1st and was
was his description only based on the technical labor market all that while the digital labor market and 2nd of all we talked a lot about labor policy but I think in order to strengthen the digital economy their labor policies only just 1 way and there are many other keys and we need to start so what are your ideas on different topics the labor market policy OK but that's a good thing watch thank you my
name Cyrus want 1 thing I realized is that in services which is about to sort of power and that's the labor community or labor shift and that digital digitization starting some trancelike scan and go like you go into a supermarket and then it's going to scan on your own you shop the items and then you go
to a electronical the cashier and he's making all the and and let's say a buyout or shopping for you and there's only 1 person was guiding you or to persons of free persons and the other 24 were at the beginning that have gone perhaps inside of a shot in the supermarket but normally they would be there after a while so what is happening that these 2 people OK I want to search
through this quickly the 1st question on the part of the county was about of
women in the labor force and its earlier right of women and young people are more impacted by these trends that I was looking at the economy as a whole not just the digital economy of the numbers are from the the German economy as a whole but I don't see that the fact is happening to women should be any reason to somehow idea is seem to be you suggested that it's not as big a deal because the women and maybe that was your attention that's what kind what I was hearing and and factually what you said was more of an argument for why Germany should have something like a portable safety net so that all these women who were working in these part time jobs maybe some of them have access to health care to their husbands but is that really the basis you wanted to continue that women with part-time jobs only get access to the safety net and support system through the husband I think that what you wanna have is of something like God but here's the fight priority to try out my German less so the cost of those indicted consists of not thank you what set up the alpha freelancers for 4 people or journalists and artists and musicians you have that in and also there's a certain class
Cacioppo workers that have access to the employers paying a certain amount into for these workers to have a so secured of so I I'm saying we should have a car as cough for all that that that's what you really should look into his car I score for all to make sure that no worker gets put into a precarious situation whatever the situation is focused on tonight I completely agree in the cask have but I think that the problem is is when you talk about full-time and part-time employment and many say part-time employment is the problem we had for a very long time it is very strong
focus unit on is a conservative country and in particular the role of women in the labor market is it is often shaped by very conservative views but we used to have a system where it was clear that you know yet the full time working men in the past and Working woman and it and this was for a very long time you know you know how conservative system so we we don't do not really see that as as a great flow model we want people to have jobs that they can live of these jobs but at we're at the point where I where I would disagree is to say you know and therefore we ve got part time jobs as problematic potentials are problematic if you have the floor so that the whole length of the knife
and if they do not reduce the income that you can live off these jobs here but to say that everyone needs to work full time it will go to work full time and have full-time wages is not the answer because it is really it
stresses out societies if we say you know we have a role model of society where everyone works full-time from the age of 21 to the age of 67 or something that would not be the ideal that society which we are aspiring to but what we need is to have a much more flexible perspective on what the people you know you worked part time work full time and you move from 1 stage to the to the other depending on your living arrangements but at during the entire time you need to have an insurance system that provides you with some benefits it it next year you know once you retire you have a pension that you can live off and why you did Wilkin and should in way either through unemployment and health insurance that you do not run the risk to really go bankrupt if something happens I think that is the the the kind of model we need and the gate economy
on the path from economy is only 1 part of it and it it it it is a small part of this in this bigger picture this I agree completely we've even traditional economy you have a lot of part time in Tampa jobs in the goal should neutrinos full-time jobs because as I said the full
time jobs are disappearing and it's I don't see the going to come back the goal should be to figure out how to make those part-time and temporary jobs into good jobs where they're fully supported and you know let them have the flexibility and the security boats instead of 1 or the other which is how it is for many workers now and by doing that you really will unleash the you know the genius of German workers if they won't be stuck in a full
time job they don't like it because it provides know retirement in the security that they want to go by a freelancer job they will have will be free to go to where they need you and I and really you know fulfill their potential similar threats bring bring an and again because the lady the left to ask what she's quite good but obviously he's she stated that the question we're talking what is obviously about latent social issues but also what other the other issues right so so what are the issues is that about and then bring it back to labor and social issues and was interesting in German is that you have some kind of basic agreement between let's
say the capital and the labor side that it's in the common interests of society to have high quality jobs right and you saying that in your business model this part of the set of words which is interested in high-quality jobs and then as as anchors that we have to differentiate what there's some kind of sort of business models that are based of based on churning high-quality jobs into low quality jobs and then there's a bit of months like yours so do we actually need some kind of let's say social movement within the sort of scene say that we actually standing in for this kind of model of a society which is based upon high-quality jobs and shouldn't you start ups so to say distance themselves more from those actually employing a model which is based upon low-quality
jobs but 1st of all the labor and and not not labor and social issues again so I actually agree with anchor that part time jobs is not a problem but rather the solution and I must say like from our site for example we have quite some workers who are working part time to add some at some point in their career had the wish to have
1 or 2 days off per week and doing other things taking care either of their children are doing some more creative things I things that they they always wanted to do and we're completely open for all kind of election frac flexible working models and I think by coming back as well to the man woman question and while there's so many women among them the part uh that man jobs are a is is acting as a single word needs to change and what is acceptance rather our problem is that at least in germany I don't know how it is in the US it is actually not possible to be part time and still be a leader so still lead a team you and this is something that we need to rethink completely in society because I actually think that part-time workers can be leading a team perfectly so as because they're not there all the time they need to build up a great team and they need to be very precise in what they want they need to have a very motivated team and so on and so forth so great circumstance actually to being a good leader and still working part time but this is very very rare and I think we need to see this 1 coming actually over the next years to to solve this and 2 as well I'm souls that the female the ratio and the topic here that are
like I could do you think this could be some kind of a stunned or fall time so so to say that the US people of of of Germany which could be a place where it can actually combine on work life
balance all this kind of most you've just been talking about with a very dynamic flourishing innovatory of our technology-based because system so could this be like what makes Germany special as opposed to the US for example if you mean
that the walking pattern Workington arrangement of yeah that kind of talent coming to Germany starting to start up your site to work for start up in Germany
this will mean that you can have both right you can have the Scandinavia way of living and the Silicon Valley and style of a lot of other OK between them between now and in Scandinavia and Silicon Valley in Germany is a a submodular model and the 3rd 1 is actually conservative if you say Scandinavian Scandinavian is a social democratic way of life and then you have the and sex may overlap but you know I wouldn't be
too over optimistic about you know the part time full time men and women situation because it is an expression of a conservative lifestyle and we still do have a you know the conservative traditional role
for women who work part time so I'm not absolutely you know over-enthusiastic about it but I would agree that when we
want to find to to achieve gender equality we need to be much more flexible in the way we work and we need to be much more flexible and open to what's the inner part time leadership and pi pastime roles which can achieve go up to the top I I completely agree with that and we need to be more flexible about and so on so the question is that they not do we have in our something to offer here I think what we do have to work with what we can offer is actually a better working time arrangements in common you know we have 1 of the lowest of working hours per year in Germany is if you look at the statistics of the OECD integer it working hours in Germany have relatively short and that is not just to do with part-time but it is sort of a full-time workers work relatively shorter working hours in our in in many other
areas and that by definition you could say you know that enables much more work that balance and if you have to live in a society where working hours are extremely long and you often has to do with the big economy of has to do with the lantern etc. where he find overly long of working hours so the picture would be makes silence at the the the the question over here and hello my name is on the internet and I'm a lawyer and I'm working on and a
PhD candidate and I'm working on legal standards for a crowd work and I thank you so much for your discussion and my question is so in Germany we have a strong connection between the social security and employees is strongly connected to this status so is it something we can
hold for the future and if not what is it that way of getting
things done it it it is
changing the terms of who is an employee or changing the terms of what is social security for the future and that's a very good question on the in we have a similar debates
United States about this discussion about changing the definition of what is an employee because it what I want you to find that way a whole bunch
of legal ramifications of take into effect and is a tokenizers not Cremophor categories employed because we have a regular employees we have independent contractors and is like your soul self-employed now's talk of creating a 3rd caracol depending contractors I'm not a big fan of this approach and because what what usually happens is like for Hoover this lawsuits against them because of the drivers AWACS your employee who receives no you're you're you're contract you the CEO of your own driving business and and so their response rate is so security labor protections is nothing and so on so you create another category but then the lawyers who just go to work at finding the loopholes in the new new category my approach is more or less create but as I said good jobs out of part time jobs have this have all types of jobs matter how you work if your group a driver who were still is responsible as is the driver for some degree of your social security costs at every business would have to be responsible for any employee or employer you they hire matter how many hours of what the conditions on and by doing that you get past the imposing a past the lawyers because no 1 is out is out of the system there's no in and out of the labor market insiders labor market outsiders everybody is covered to some extent that to me is the better way and the way for the future as we get more into the digital economy and more
into the automation algorithms robots things that are replacing humans and we have to be really clear in covering the people that you have jobs so that they are even more labor market outside is that they are now I think that's a real danger and another thing this is feasible set so you have to have some kind of like a pooled contributions to go to a freelance work but you have pull contributions yeah
how hard for me to say I mean I'm I'm uh so in a in a certain point and missing kind of in this whole discussion actually 2 views on this whole situation and the 1 is the view of the customer and the other 1 is the view of the employees who really wants to be flexible and to relieve maybe does not want to work full time and who wants to have to have a life and we we see so so many people's so highly valued the flexibility that that that we have that it's action not like this coming from like the evil companies were not offering full time secure jobs any more and more it would to requested from many many people today to have the flexibility to move around to be free to move to other cities and and so on and to force so and I mean of course as the company I'm very willing to take responsibilities for the people were working on enough in our company but I think you need to as well like not look from it so much from this past world but reducing what what what the workers want today on many of them
that they get to work with what you know that we're saying struck have creating a system where those workers can still be part time still have the flexibility go to another part of the country to work for the employer if they want but by doing that they're not missing
out on social security which some of the workers may idea how many of you if you have 300 boys how many of them are regularly employed workers how many of them the freelance what percentage roughly rosette top trade secret you can't tell it no it's not so I'd save at Paris's 300 people that we employ 100 50 hours a stylus so that other ones were and styling our customers in putting together outfits for our customers and and they are all fixed employed with in our company because we want to keep them long term in the company and we want to offer them a good and and and save jobs actually say another 150 or at that most of the others are just from the other departments and most of them are fixed employees so we only have a handful of freelancers and currently most of them and t and Moses a freelance that a working for us and I we would laugh I but on a fixed contract but they say 0 well know I I very much appreciate a reaction that flexible and maybe in 6 months of almost to Spain windows so so with so few of them that are freelancers like that if there was a requirement that you the employer OK you still have to pay something introduced this freelancers Social Security that it wouldn't be a big cost you it's it's something that could be doing that yeah absolutely I have 5 of course drawing do do you think Stevens model
of of portable of Social Security are that this is this feasible and
with this also be thinkable across the European Union of what I
and I think the question by the PhD student and you know do we actually start changing the definition of an employee or do we start changing our social security system that is the the crucial question because that is the way you have to take a decision either you declare many more freelancers as employees and that's dependent contractors but while you just declare Unite here in in such a
freelance relationship we treat you as employees and therefore we have put it all into all the social security systems which have much more costly than what that they had and now that would be 1 solution the other solution is really to open up social security assistance to people who are now freelance and we have to do either 1 or the other all we have to develop of and that is that the because the questions I would say
we have to do those we have to really change the way we look at employees and independent contractors and and define very clearly what the the uh
distinction is but we also have to do something about so the social security system and that is where the particle system comes in should we have individual accounts for people who have won a freelance work on some social security rights from being freelance and if they moved to another to another job or to another contract they can take their account with them I think that is in principle a good idea of the the big question is always how does that relate to existing social security accounts because you know you is that it just part of the old account is that a new account and who pays into that because very often in a freelance as an attractive because the treaty and they're cheap because they don't pay social security contributions of as appeared and someone needs to pay for that status so what we have to stop there what we represent the future of
work and making Germany leverages is later ProBic very much about labor and social policy thank you all for coming in thank you for your
the stage play here the 1st part of
the graph and you did
Gesetz <Physik>
Deskriptive Statistik
Translation <Mathematik>
Regulator <Mathematik>
Metropolitan area network
App <Programm>
Kategorie <Mathematik>
Güte der Anpassung
Kontextbezogenes System
Generator <Informatik>
Dienst <Informatik>
Rechter Winkel
Grundsätze ordnungsmäßiger Datenverarbeitung
Ordnung <Mathematik>
Orientierung <Mathematik>
Stabilitätstheorie <Logik>
Electronic Government
Klasse <Mathematik>
Automatische Handlungsplanung
Demoszene <Programmierung>
Fächer <Mathematik>
Endogene Variable
Äußere Algebra eines Moduls
Peripheres Gerät
Stochastische Abhängigkeit
Stochastische Abhängigkeit
Binder <Informatik>
Wort <Informatik>
Faktor <Algebra>
Inverter <Schaltung>
Gemeinsamer Speicher
Familie <Mathematik>
Arithmetischer Ausdruck
Arbeit <Physik>
Einheit <Mathematik>
Prozess <Informatik>
Schnitt <Graphentheorie>
Funktion <Mathematik>
Pen <Datentechnik>
Zentrische Streckung
Physikalischer Effekt
Ideal <Mathematik>
Algorithmische Programmiersprache
Arithmetisches Mittel
Twitter <Softwareplattform>
Geschlecht <Mathematik>
Ganze Zahl
Web Site
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Physikalische Theorie
Puffer <Netzplantechnik>
Logistische Verteilung
Mobiles Endgerät
Leistung <Physik>
Einfach zusammenhängender Raum
Diskretes System
Physikalisches System
Design by Contract
Innerer Punkt


Formale Metadaten

Titel Future of Work: How can Germany be a leader in the Digital Economy?
Serientitel re:publica 2017
Autor Hill, Steven
Hassel, Anke
Neufeind, Max
Alex, Anna-Katharina
Lizenz CC-Namensnennung - Weitergabe unter gleichen Bedingungen 3.0 Deutschland:
Sie dürfen das Werk bzw. den Inhalt zu jedem legalen Zweck nutzen, verändern und in unveränderter oder veränderter Form vervielfältigen, verbreiten und öffentlich zugänglich machen, sofern Sie den Namen des Autors/Rechteinhabers in der von ihm festgelegten Weise nennen und das Werk bzw. diesen Inhalt auch in veränderter Form nur unter den Bedingungen dieser Lizenz weitergeben.
DOI 10.5446/33119
Herausgeber re:publica
Erscheinungsjahr 2017
Sprache Englisch

Inhaltliche Metadaten

Fachgebiet Informatik
Abstract This is a panel and audience discussion on how Germany can be a leader in the Digital Economy. Rather than copying the Silicon Valley model, Germany can forge a new “Way of Innovation” that ensures that a more tech-driven economy doesn’t further enlarge the gap between “haves” and “have-nots.” The right policies will build on German strengths in a way that enhances the virtuous circles of social capitalism.

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