Copyright Untangled - Fixing copyright for the 21st Century
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Transcript: English(auto-generated)
00:23
We've got the lady to my left, which is Theresa Nober, legal expert on copyright, and we've got to her left, Delia Brown, national copyright director for Australian schools, and there
00:41
is Paul. He is director of Canisland, an Amsterdam-based think tank focusing on complex challenges in society require new forms of innovation. So, have fun!
01:02
Hello, everyone, and welcome to our session on copyright, and more particularly on copyright reform, because this is the common denominator that brings us all together. We are copy fighters, engaged for at least several years, some of us more on fighting for a better copyright system. Why do we want to talk about copyright today? I feel that maybe ten
01:23
years or five years ago this didn't require an explanation today. I think we are competing with many other issues that are of interest to people involved in digital rights, digital activism. Well, we need to do something with copyright because if copyright is the air we breathe, this air is very stale. The copyright system in Europe is a
01:42
20th-century system. This felt a bit strange, probably around 2001. By 2005, it felt outdated. This was a real problem by 2010, and we have 2017 now. We have 2017, and fortunately, the copyright reform is ongoing in Europe. This is the moment when we need to act, and this is also
02:02
the moment where right now there is sort of a balance that's unsure which way we will go to see whether this air will be freshened up or whether it will remain even more stale, whether copyright will become untangled or whether it will remain a big jumbled mess. We want to focus on a particular aspect of copyright, which is
02:21
education, culture, and heritage. So this is complementary to some other sessions that concern things like content filtering. The focus we have is public interest and exceptions to copyright in the name of disinterest. We will start with a presentation by Delia, who will present a broader global perspective and the things that are happening in Australia, just to have a
02:42
point of reference for what goes on here in Europe. So this is working, isn't it? So everyone, I'm Delia Brown. I'm the national copyright director for the Australian school sector. I'm a strange public servant that basically supports the education sector, providing advice, education, obviously
03:05
acting as an advocate for education reform in copyright in Australia. And so just up there is our kind of general website, which teachers use on a day-to-day basis to get the practical, what I can do with copyright is very, very positive. But on this website too, we'll
03:21
have links at the end of the presentation. There's lots of links to the current law reform activity going in Australia. Before I start even talking about copyright and education, how many here have children? Would you put up your hands? Who's got children? Okay, that's good, a few here. And how many, anyone here a teacher? Any teachers here? Like one
03:40
to a couple of teachers here? And how many goddamn lawyers are there here? The ones I know, it's okay. I'm a lawyer too, but I'm a very strange one. So education no longer kind of means this facing, in fact you're suffering from the 20th century education system now listening to me. But what it
04:02
means now is this. It's 3D printing, it's kind of the flipped classroom, it's augmented reality, it's virtual reality, it's also bring your own device, it's document cameras, it's interactive whiteboards. It's also things like Thingiverse, which is 3D
04:22
printing, YouTube, it is things like Google Classroom or it's also things like iTunes U or it's Mathletics. It's no longer textbooks. I don't get asked anymore about how much I can photocopy. I don't get asked anymore about the video recorder copying things from
04:40
a television, free to air television or radio. It's completely, completely different now. It is now the 21st century. And just what you see here is an infographic that we have on our website in Australia which explains why Australian schools need fair use. And up here it's showing you some of the things that we currently pay a
05:02
license fee for when used in the classroom. Like, and some of the things are a little bit weird. Like, I can write on a blackboard, but if I write on an interactive whiteboard, I have to pay a license fee. I can screen an artwork in a classroom, but I can't show a poem, that's going to have
05:20
to be a license fee. If I reproduce a Twitter feed, that can actually attract a license fee. If I print a Department of Health sheet on head lice, and those of you kids know that lice at some stage will take your children some time at primary school, making a copy, all those sort of things attract a license fee or an enumeration fee
05:41
under Australia's very complex compulsory licenses for education. So it's pretty inconsistent. Age of the photocopier and the video recorder, we've got the iPad, et cetera. And this is inconsistent, there's inconsistent rules, not just in Australia, but across all of the EU and many other countries. We seem to have a lot of
06:02
international treaties dealing with minimum enforcement and protection of copyright, but we don't have a treaty internationally that deals with minimum requirements for educational use, and that's something we should be thinking about. Also, STEM has become incredibly important to all countries around the world. At 75 of the fastest
06:21
growing population occupations will require STEM's skill set. So there's a worldwide drive, not just in Australia, but across Europe as well, and in America to try and improve or put STEM into the education system. Now, this is not happening just in the school. Now there's a demand to push by governments to make sure
06:40
that we're working with business and collaborating with business to put STEM in. So we're not just doing things inside a brick and mortar building, we're actually working virtually and across countries to do this sort of stuff as well. And we will talk about critical thinking, we're talking about problem solving, communication skills, we're talking about the fact that kids are using new equipment to explore new concepts, we've got new
07:02
assessment and data analytics which has been used to kind of assess kids' learning and teachers and the impact of these things. And many schools now, particularly in Australia, are working with specialists in business. And a couple of examples here is we've got some links here which you can look at later. We have kids who are actually working
07:20
like 40 schools in New South Wales, over 1,000 students are developing all these experiments to be tested in NASA. One other school has actually developed a moisturiser that's going to be tested on the astronauts in NASA. So this is what is happening actually now, right this minute. The future's here, it's not coming up, it's sticking in the face with us now.
07:41
And our problem in Australia, like probably in Europe, is we've got a very complex mix of compulsory statutory licenses administered by collective management organisations, you call them here, we call them Collecting Societies in Australia. And it's kind of like, it's problematic. And even with the exceptions we might have for free use, we don't have
08:01
corresponding provisions allowing us to circumvent things like technological protection measures. So, again, I showed you before, different rules depending on what you use, whether it's an artistic work or an audio-visual work or it's a YouTube video. And the other problem we have in Australia is that we pay,
08:20
schools pay millions of dollars each year to simply use freely available internet material that may be available online. And we're the only country in the world because of our statutory licensing that we are required legally to pay money to use stuff that's freely available on the internet. So here's some examples, displaying a Spanish
08:41
translation, using a translation app, taking a screenshot of course offerings on universities, telling students to print an information sheet on malaria, telling students to print a page from the RSPCA, which is the Royal Society Protection of Cruelty Animals website, displaying an image of a cat on
09:00
Petfinder, taking a screenshot of a website that shows different times around the world. You can see, and actually my favourite is printing a yellow raincoat from a Bunnings warehouse catalogue online. Now Bunnings is a warehouse that sells things like paint and garden utensils and umbrellas and sun umbrellas and
09:21
barbecue things. So we have to, you know, put a yellow raincoat into a PowerPoint and it attracts a licence fee. This is simply kind of ridiculous. And also we also pay for things called orphaned works. Now orphaned works are works, obviously a lot of works on the internet are actually orphaned works in the sense that you don't know who owns them.
09:41
You don't know who the owner is. You can't find it. And you can't locate that owner to ask for permission. You also cannot locate that owner to actually pay a licence fee. And because we've got statutory licence that covers some educational uses, and we're increasingly using the internet, that level of work
10:00
that's going up in our data sets from surveys is actually increasingly orphaned works. So obviously we think copyright law reform's the key to both innovation and education. And in Australia there's been three independent kind of government reviews. One was the Australian Law Reform Commission in 2013 and
10:22
2014, which was an 18 month inquiry looking at copyright and the digital economy, and there was over a sort of 109 consultations, 870 submissions, and they had 20 recommendations. And one of the recommendations we'll see in a minute, it's the biggest thing we had in 25 years, talked
10:41
about simplification of the statutory licences, which I won't bore you with, because it's boring, but also suggests that we go towards a flexible fair use exception to copyright. One flexible exception that could replace 30 existing exceptions, and outdated technical exceptions in our Copyright Act,
11:01
and also be a much easier exception for teachers and the ordinary person to understand. And it would help us not just promoting innovation, it would match consumer expectations, be more flexible, and protect markets for artists and creators as well. And if you think about the other countries that have a fair use style exception, it's the USA, it's Israel, it's
11:21
Singapore, it's South Korea, all these countries are doing very well in innovation. And I think the reason why that is is because fair use is like a secret source that helps innovation and education and the digital economy of these countries. We're also suggesting in our situation that we're not getting rid of collective licensing. We think fair use plus
11:41
collective licensing can coexist side by side. What fair use will do is mean that schools will stop wasting their education budgets paying for copying and communicating things of the internet or orphan works that really do not prejudice the interests of the copyright owner. So we won't pay for
12:00
tourism maps, or headlights information sheets, or a picture of a yellow raincoat in an online catalogue for a shop. It doesn't mean that everything's going to be free. One thing I always like reminding people is Australia's about a population of about maybe 24 million. We have
12:21
3.5 million school children. We have almost 10,000 schools. That's who I look after in Australia. Every year we spend at least $700 million buying content for education. On top of that we spend another $95 million paying collecting societies to use small bits of
12:41
material in our teaching. Now, the fair use will have some impact on the license fee of $95 million, but it will have zero impact on the $700 million that we spend each year. Three minutes. Three minutes, okay. We had the LRC recommendations and the report back in 2014 which we recommended fair use.
13:02
The government still wanted to have someone else talk about fair use, so we got the Productivity Commission. The Productivity Commission is a statutory authority set up in Australia which basically looks at the economic and social benefits of new legislation or policy. So it's an independent authority. That's what it does. Paul was worried about
13:21
productivity being something a bit more Orwellian but it's not that, not George Orwell. So they too supported the ALRC recommendations. They actually said, look, we need fair use. We need to expand safe harbors to include schools and TAFEs, universities. We need better governance arrangements for collecting societies.
13:41
Better make sure that you can't have contract or TPMs preventing you using exceptions. And that's kind of how we got there. Now, then we also had an Ernst Young report. Ernst Young, everyone knows, is like a major international consultancy company. They too had a look at the
14:01
recommendations by the ALRC. They were asked to do a cost benefit analysis on whether or not, what would happen if we introduced fair use in Australia. A couple of things they said in that. They said, look, it's actually going to have a positive impact on Australian economy, not a negative impact. The second
14:21
thing they said is like one of the major things we can see that's having a benefit for is it's going to actually maybe save perhaps the school sector 8 to 18 to 23 million dollars a year in licence fees, paying for stuff that shouldn't be paid for. And that would be something as savings to education budgets. And so that was
14:40
a kind of a good thing to do. So, again, we're still waiting for a decision from the Australian government. There has been obviously a scare campaign from the major rights holders saying this is the end of the world. So not making a decision at this stage is not bad because they haven't said
15:02
no yet, but we're still, I think we're going to have still a long, another two or three year fight before we get that. So at the end of this is just some links to stuff on our website talking about this in more detail, including recent reforms. Thanks very much.
15:25
Thank you, Delia. And as usual, I'm assuming these links will be findable on the internet if you want to pursue them. So I must admit always news from Delia is like a breath of fresh air and a sign that in some place around the world things are going well. Let's now see how things are going
15:41
in Europe. Tagasa works with Comunha, also works with Creative Commons in Portugal and is a legal expert at Comunha. Thank you, Alec. Is this working? Yeah. Okay, so as you know, we are currently discussing copyright reform in Europe and one of the things that are being discussed
16:00
is a new exception or limitation for educational purposes. So I would like to first just introduce you to the situation in Europe that we have right now. So we have one thing that's called
16:20
infosoc directive, which gives member states the possibility to implement certain exceptions and limitations, namely for educational purposes. So what we have in this directive is an optional prototype that member states can implement. It's a prototype that's open to all users, open to all
16:40
infosoc rights, all rights that member states have to implement, and to all types of words to the extent that is needed. The only limitation that this exception has is that you cannot make commercial purposes and you have to respect the three-step test. But apart from that, it's a great general exception that is flexible.
17:01
It's not fair use, but it's quite adequate to the needs of education and especially to the future needs or to the present needs of digital education because it's technological neutral. So we have this optional prototype. We could have made
17:21
this optional prototype mandatory, but instead, what the exception proposed was a mandatory exception of what's being discussed right now is a mandatory exception only for certain uses, so only for digitally supported education. This is
17:40
the exception that's being proposed in opposition to the prototype that we have right now doesn't cover all types of users. It only covers formal education, so educational establishments and there's different interpretations of what this can be, but we believe that certainly cannot be museums or institutions that have
18:02
their own educational programs, so only educational establishments. It applies to all types of works to the extent needed, but it's overrideable by licenses, so a member state can say, okay, I implement the mandatory exception, but I can decide if certain
18:20
types of works or even if the entire exception is subject to the existence of a license, so this means that if a publisher comes to a school, proposes a license, the license is available, the school can no longer rely on the exception. It has to buy the license if it wants to use the work that would otherwise be permitted to be
18:42
used under the exception. This proposal also has physical and technological barriers, so educational establishments can use the works under this exception in the premises of the school, so if you are a school organizing a conference outside of the premises of the school,
19:02
say in a museum, in a space that has more conditions, more facilities that have more conditions to all the conference, you cannot do it under the proposal. Also, if you want to use the work online, you can use it only through secure
19:20
electronic networks that are accessible by the students and the teaching staff of that establishment, so no parents assessing that, only school teaching staff and students and through secure networks. It's not clear to us what does this mean. Probably means that the schools have to have their own
19:42
platforms, so if you don't have money because where I came from, in Portugal, schools don't have that much money and most of them don't have money to have their own platforms, so they cannot make uses online, they cannot use email, they cannot use Dropbox, if they want to communicate the works through other means under this proposal.
20:02
So what we did, trying to demonstrate the fragmented landscape and how this landscape will continue to be fragmented even after this proposal was to analyse 15 educational uses in 15 countries and you can see the studies
20:21
was released and it's online and we also did some infographics which are quite cool to understand these issues a bit better and one of the things that we wanted to show is if you limit the users to educational establishments, so museums, heritage institutions, libraries, non-profit organisations, this conference
20:42
would not be possible under this succession, if I want to show a video, if I want to show an image, if I want to make any use of a copyrighted work, I would not be protected under this proposal because it's limited to educational establishments and we are not, this conference is not an educational establishment.
21:00
The same for museums and the situation is right here, nowadays we have more or less in the countries that we analyse we realise that more or less half of the countries don't have limitations on the type of users so this means that educational programmes run by these entities are possible while other countries
21:22
are less generous, so if we don't change this it will be it will continue to be like this, fragmented. We also analyse types of works, so what works can you use under the existing system and we realise of course that
21:41
some countries exclude the types of works that you can use for instance Denmark, Finland the Scandinavian countries don't allow you to use cinematographic works or dramatic works for educational purposes. Let me maybe make a disclaimer or clarification
22:01
we didn't study the licenses that might exist that schools might buy and therefore of course I think in some of these countries if you buy a license you can use so we were just looking into the law so under the law in the Scandinavian countries you cannot use dramatic works
22:20
you cannot perform a dramatic play in school and you cannot show a video even if it's online on a free publicly accessible website like YouTube. Textbooks for instance are excluded in Germany and for instance in France you exclude simply printed music, so you don't exclude musical works
22:41
but you exclude the use of printed sheets, printed scores which means that if you are in a music class and you want to teach your students how to play music using a printed score you will not be able to do it. Okay, I'm almost finishing. So that's a problem that the current system
23:01
probably will not the current proposal probably will not solve because although the proposal applies to all types of works it allows license to be to take precedence over the exception so it might exclude some works through licenses.
23:21
What else? Extent of works. One thing is you might not exclude certain types of works but if you only allow the use of parts of a work you will be excluding entire images, entire short works such as poems entire short videos like the three minutes, two minutes
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videos that are available online on YouTube and I've heard that some people might be considering introducing that possibility of limiting the extension of works that you can use under the current proposal which would be a shame because I think
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that's one of the few things that we want in the European Commission proposal was the possibility to use words to whatever extent that was needed so even if if you lose that then I think we'll lose most of the good things that we had achieved at this point. So one last, two last slides
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just to show you how having a proposal like the one that the Commission has on the table of an exception that only allows for certain uses so in this case digital uses excluding all non-digital uses how can this impact real life teaching?
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So this is, most probably most teachers don't use anymore in Europe, don't use DVDs in class, I don't know if they use or not but mostly they must use online videos if they do want to use DVDs in some countries they will they will be able to do it
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because public performances or screening of a movie in a class is not considered a public performance so it's excluded from the scope of protection of copyright so you don't have the exclusive right to prevent others from using, from screening DVDs in class but if you
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show that same video through an online platform the right involved is not the same right, it's not a public performance right but a public communication right, this is tricky but just to let you know that in some countries public performance and therefore screening of a video from a DVD would be possible and in those same countries
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for instance Netherlands and Italy if a teacher wants to show the video not from a DVD but from a YouTube channel you will not be able to do it, at least it's not clear from the law that you will be able to do it because that right is not excluded from the scope of protection of copyright, thank you
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Thank you very much Tagesa and now to add some variety we will sort of switch spheres of life and look a bit at culture and heritage to see whether the challenges are similar
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and what are the solutions Okay Hello, my name is Paul Keller I work for Kenisland in Amsterdam and I'm going to talk about advocacy work that we're doing for the cultural heritage sector, we're mainly working together with Comunya, with Europeana, their Europeana being the European platform for
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digitised cultural heritage from museums, archives libraries all across the European Union but today I want to talk about, or I want to start by talking about Norway We, this session that we, when we planned this we wanted to talk about how we need to fix copyright for the 21st century
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and I think it's essential that we're not only looking at what's wrong with copyright but that you have a vision what you actually want to achieve like this is not about copyright as it is, this is about what copyright needs to enable and copyright is currently, as we heard about education before us but also in the cultural heritage sector one of the things that makes the
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functioning of public institutions very different Norway, by accident is a country where they have thought and they have tried very hard what they can do by combining the power of the internet and the power of cultural heritage institutions and they have achieved a situation where in 2018 100% of all books
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ever published in Norway will be available online unfortunately only to internet users in Norway and they're probably not very interesting to most of us outside of Norway because there's very few Norwegian speakers outside of Norway but what this shows is if you have a vision and you want to accomplish something
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you can make something and obviously this is like this idea of the universal digital library where you have access to basically everything that human culture has produced that the internet, at least in theory, makes possible now this is in Norway and this is built on specifics of the Norwegian situation with very well functioning collecting societies
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this is only in the book sector where collective organization is relatively high but it shows how you can achieve something. Now if we contrast that with the situation in Europe in Europe, and this is a very rough estimate conducted by Europeana, we currently have 3% of the cultural heritage objects, think books
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paintings, archival matter, films things like that that are available online so this is 3% of what's in the collections of these institutions that is available online. This should probably also be 100% or in the direction of 100% especially if you think about things that for example
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museums on average have probably 90% of their collection in storage and maybe 10% or less actually available for you to see if you go into a museum with libraries and archives you can usually get access to everything by just asking to loan that out but obviously like having that available online has also huge
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advantages so how do we come there? The current European copyright framework foresees one exception to copyright that is relevant in this context and that is the exception for the use of purpose of research and private study and that allows libraries, archives and museums to make works that they have in their collections available
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on dedicated terminals that are located on the premises of the institution so you have to go there and then you have to use a dedicated terminal provided by the institution in order to look something up so this comes from about this time which is depicted here on this page that's the kind of thinking that's the kind of technological infrastructure
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that informs the copyright rules that we have at the moment in Europe obviously a lot of stuff has changed in the meanwhile my organization Kenesland has been involved in a large digitization project for the audio visual sector in the Netherlands that ran from 2007 to 2012 it was called Images for the future
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it cost about 110 million euros and it digitized basically a large swath of the audio visual heritage of the Netherlands so we turned stuff from film into these kind of things these are actually tape cassettes which go into a robot and store the high definition files and can be retrieved and there's obviously also there should obviously also
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be online versions but going back to the percentages we had this digitization project with public money of mainly public broadcast material and a mere 2% of the I have to look now 138, 932 hours of film and video material that were digitized
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are actually available online to the general public at this moment 98% of this stuff because of rights clearance questions is not available at the moment and that is at least from our perspective simply unacceptable because that really deals with stuff that has been digitized with public money, preserved with public money produced with public money
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kept in the archives with public money for very many years and this is even more astounding these things if you take into consideration that more than 95% if you go out and ask people who have works in the collection for example we've done this with a museum in Amsterdam and we actually wrote
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to artists who had works in the collection and said hey we've got a new website can we put that stuff online more than 95% give us permission to do that so the exception of the expectation of creators who have their works in archives or libraries or museums generally seems to be it's okay to make
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that available online, most of these people are actually happy that something is collected in the collection of a famous or not so famous museum or archive, like people are happy, like the street photographer from the 60s is generally extremely pleased to know that the municipal archive has his collection or her collection in
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in its like in the archive and they would love to make that available online on the platform of something like the municipal archive but this is not so easy because we've done this study with a 95% and there's a couple of other ones in there it's generally, it assumes that it's easy
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to go and talk to these people and ask them for permission, the big problem here is most of the works especially the older works which are contained in the collections of these institutions are produced by rights holders who have stopped actively managing their stuff who are very difficult to find, not necessarily impossible we have a solution for that, the orphan works directive but if it's just
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extremely difficult to find these people you can't ask for the permission and in that situation copyright, the general rule applies without permission you can't publish anything online this has resulted in a situation which we call the 20th century black hole, if you can see this here this is like a data analysis of the collection of Europeana and it shows
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like increased numbers of works from like, this is the year of creation so it starts with 1800 here on this side and you see a drop off starting about at 1900 and then really like it starts flatlining halfway through the 20th century that is exactly where copyright starts to apply for sure and that period before is where copyright
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probably applies, so the effect of copyright is a suppression of access to the cultural heritage which in Europe generally is preserved by public interest institutions who are funded with taxpayer money and we need to break out of that yeah, and I'm, that's gonna be fine so, um the good news here is that the
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European commission has actually in that proposal for a new directive on copyright in the digital single market that basically every speaker before me referred to has introduced a chapter on out of commerce works so that's basically those type of works where copyright still applies but they are not in commerce
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anymore, they are not actively managed anymore so the category of works which creates this 20th century black hole so they come up with a proposal of how to fix this but unfortunately they've come up with the Norwegian version basically they say you need to do this via extended collective licensing because look, extended collective
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licensing works because it works in Norway, now the Norwegians when they passed their laws they looked at their situation, they looked at the situation they had and they said in the book sector we can actually work with collecting societies because we have very good representation in the collecting society we can extend that representation and that allows them to achieve this 100%
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now Norway is a fairly atypical country for the European context they are crazy rich, they are very well organized and the relationships between users and the collecting society are friendly or very friendly most of the other European countries don't really meet any of these three conditions
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and this only works for the book sector for them, this is also not an answer for visual artworks or for archival material or the visual archive there is no collective representation there at all, so the commission looks at Norway and says this is the solution we want to work with licensing because we are opposed to exceptions and so they have drafted
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something which basically tries to impose that Norwegian mechanism on the entire European Union where the preconditions being a rich country having well functioning well representative collective management societies do not exist, so if the commissions proposal goes through we will have a solution on paper that will be useless in most of the sectors
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so in the audiovisual sector probably also in the visual arts sector for large parts and in many many countries where like the collective management system isn't as well developed in Europe, so what we are working to that's museums, archives, Europeana a number of organizations are advocating for to combine this
36:20
and I think I've heard that in both presentations before it needs to be a combination of extended collective licensing and an exception, so we really need the right to make this material available if licensing fails as a mechanism it's reasonable in the copyright context to say like the first attempt should be to license this material but we also really need a back
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up mechanism that gives the institutions who really want to make this material available a more leverage in making this available and that has to be a copyright exception. Thank you and I'm going to pass off to Alek I think
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I will now very quickly switch roles and also switch back to education I want to make one comment about what Teresa spoke about and what her research shows is to me, whenever I look at it it's just hard to understand why certain things can be done in some countries like very good places to do education without worrying about copyright
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or Estonia and Czech Republic and you know the sky doesn't fall there and in other countries you simply cannot and then the most common argument from publishers is local specificity and I just cannot imagine what's the local specificity say of France that limits educators to do certain things you can do you know 1000 kilometers further east
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but I wanted to add to this puzzle a slightly different perspective and I want to underline that this is a perspective that we try to keep in Comunya that is when we say copyright and education we look both at copyright and education but also education period and actually inspiration for that came from Delia when we started talking with her she showed us
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this list of important things in education when you think about copyright and copyright wasn't on this list the list as Delia showed was you know educational innovation use of technologies, media literacy and so on and then copyright becomes a means so this is a perspective that says you cannot limit yourself to copyright policy just to discussions like does the money go a bit
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more to the creators or to the users that's not the discussion we're having this is a discussion about good education and what we did at Comunya is we did a small study we treated as an exploratory study to understand how teachers understand copyright and function with copyright we did it in five countries in Germany, France, Estonia Poland and the Netherlands
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this was a qualitative study we interviewed 30 teachers which were very specific and exemplary we looked for people who are innovative teachers and in particular make use of a range of digital or media technologies and these creators, rebels, guardians and those users who are not really suspecting what's going on are the sort of four
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categories we identified we also got some pretty good quotes and this is maybe one of the stronger ones which says I would like for copyright not to play any role whatsoever in school and I like this quote because it reminds me of something I heard from Nili Cruz who was the previous commissioner on information society in the previous commission and she was once in
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Poland and she said I would like copyright to stay out of the classroom unfortunately that was what she said sort of freestyling it's not in the official version she published all her speeches online but people heard it and I think it's important to say this sometimes and it's also seen of course as very radical teachers are not really radical when they look at copyright
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they don't like part of it which is copyright law is a market mechanism that sort of pulls out funds from the educational system we got a lot of such responses but they also like copyright when it's seen as a element of creativity and not just by artists but by themselves these exemplary teachers for instance often write text books, educational resources
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and in that case they understand copyright pretty well and they treat it as a friend I want to underline it because we're not talking with you know a bunch of radicals of course they were unique we also talk with them how their peers are doing and I also want to underline in general it's a hard discussion you cannot really talk about
40:21
details of copyright law at this level very few educators can function we only found in once in a while you know the best sort of trainer on the copyright in Estonia obviously he was knowledgeable but they say that in general there are sort of two paths that lead teachers to understanding copyright one is dealing with technology the other is
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dealing with children with your students who come and you notice they're doing something weird on the internet or maybe they ask you questions whether you're legally playing a movie in class and you start saying oh I don't know and I think this is important because this sort of confirms also what Delia shows and is sort of an insight into how to build policy if we want good
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copyright it needs to sort of solve challenges created by modern technologies and be useful to the new generation you know to the young people so I really like this result that comes from the study another thing we try to do is sort of map how these teachers think about copyright and we created
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this simple scheme which you can see and basically it divides teachers based on how they use new technologies and how they respect or disregard copyright law so in one corner we have creators who make high use of technology but also respect copyright there are those authors of textbooks and on the opposite we have people who make very little
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use and disregard copyright basically they use stuff online they don't know what's going on they might be breaking the law there are also guardians who just pay a lot of attention to copyright out of fear and maybe the most interesting category the rebel who basically does things understanding that he's probably breaking the law because
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that's what education needs in her belief so it's a kind of educational social disobedience we can find a lot more about these sort of ideal types in our research we got some insights from educators what good copyright would be for them as I said these are not precise
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recommendations but it's very clear that they understand that the goal of copyright in education is not to generate high revenue and this is also something that we take from them and put into our work as Comunya is that we really need to talk a lot more about education and debates that often concern only copyright and also to create a safe space
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for educators this is a pretty cool graphic which got designed for us by Brian Mather a British sort of visual thinker which shows that today the exception is pretty narrow and you really need to extend it to encompass education because then educators can stop asking questions oh am I really doing this legally
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or need to stop spending time you know fearing something wrong is going on and being those copyright guardians that's not their role so thank you very much that's the end of our presentations we now have around 10 to 15 minutes for a Q&A session so maybe you have some questions and I will
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try to see your hands we do have a question up here in the front only one remark I would beg you not to forget adult education you're talking about schools universities but we are talking about lifelong learning so I'm working for an adult education
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center and we have the problem bigger problem is the schools that's a good comment do you want to address that because it's a very good point that is something we've also talked about in Australia why we were wanting a flexible fair use education because we don't want this exception
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being limited to education institutions but we want it to be more expensive just covering any anywhere that you're learning and that would be adult education or it could be industry as well and that's an argument we try to use in European debates you know we have in Europe a lifelong learning strategy there's all this debate which I think is also very
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present in Germany now with the industry 4.0 and the attached idea of educational 4.0 it's vocational training it's really modern vocational training it's training throughout your life and with copyright we have a lot that says well you can do it in the building of a school or university so it finishes at some point yeah I think it's about
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policy if you discriminate against entities and users you should limit an exception through the purpose of the use so this is for educational purposes for non-commercial educational purposes that should be it should not like it is nowadays with the directive that we have
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but yeah it's difficult to I think honestly I don't think we'll be able to to get adult learning in this reform I'm very skeptical about it probably institutions will be included but
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not much further yeah okay I have a question then for you Delia you talked about fair use around the world what are the chances for that happening in Europe maybe that's good to highlight simple answer don't even use the words
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use flexible flexible exception don't use the word fair which is what we have I know you don't like me to say the word infosoc but that's exactly what infosoc is what we have nowadays is a flexible exception and the countries that have implemented as it is they have
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quite flexible opportunities for teachers and educators and you can have it as you have nowadays you cannot have it under this proposal and I just also can I have a comment on Paul's presentation Paul because I was interested because you described having a
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a kind of a flexible exception that could be a catchall in case you can't get a license I have a I don't have the same view I think you need a flexible exception that exists whether or not a license is offered or not now the reason why I think that is because a lot of uses that everything is protected by copyright
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anything on the internet that's freely available is protected by copyright and there's also certain uses that are very very small or insubstantial that you should be able to use without having to go and get a license or pay a license fee under a collecting society so I have a slightly different view on that
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I'm not saying that in my view the proposal that's been made in Australia doesn't allow a free for all there's going to be many things that we do in education that may not fall under that exception such as putting something up on the cloud for permanent storage for students to access that would be something
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that may not be actually covered by a flexible fair use exception but forever and ever or more than like a substantial part of the work being reproduced to be made accessible to students that wouldn't be covered by an exception that would require a license I think
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so maybe one of my benefits of not being a lawyer is that I'm really not so much interested in the mechanisms you use to achieve something I don't care if it's a license or if it's an exception like that's the point I tried to make with this example of Norway I think the point is we as a society need to agree time and time again what kind of behaviors we want to enable, what kind of behaviors
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we want to give creators exclusive control and what times we don't and I do think for me personally, both of these things like the access to our cultural heritage but also the access or the use of stuff in educational contexts as wide as they may be are clearly social objectives or political objectives
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that governments and societies invest huge amounts of money in and then we run into this stupidity that is copyright law and that just because like well that doesn't fit into the framework that the lawyers have drawn up and that we were stupid enough to agree on in 1886 in a convention therefore
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all the money that you spend on the 120 million euros we spend on digitizing that thing do not result in any tangible benefit to the people who've actually paid the money, that's just copyright isn't a good in itself at least not in the areas where it competes
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with other social objectives I don't think it's only because I'm a lawyer but we do have to look into the details and to the mechanisms because the problem with the licenses and that's one of the main concerns and especially in countries that don't really have
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that much resources financial resources and schools that don't have financial resources is what I mentioned you know if you permit that the license will override an exception you will be forcing institutions that don't have the capacity to negotiate terms and
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conditions to accept whatever license is imposed on them because then the license is available and then you have to accept it otherwise you cannot use it under the exception and that's one of the main questions for education and one of the main problems that we have is that you will proportionate an expansion of licenses
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and in situations where the uses are fair I'm sorry to use the word fair but they are fair and they should not be even maybe remunerated I don't want to say obviously there's drawbacks to licensing but I think it is a bit in the copyright community
50:20
this religious discussion between licensing and exceptions and limitations as a mechanism for that there are areas where licensing works perfectly well take the radio system radio broadcasters can just play whatever music they want they have a collective licensing it just works so licensing as such is not a bad thing
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because there's the thing that actually many a creator earns substantial or insubstantial amounts of money from radio play and that's the other part that we need to keep in mind and I don't want to say like I don't care about the thing like I think we need to look at
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the objectives and then choose the mechanisms accordingly and that's why I think probably that's why I made the point yes licensing is a good thing in a rich country like Norway where everything is well organized licensing is a stupid terrible idea in a country like Malta for example because Malta doesn't even have a collecting society yet the European commission says
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to fix that problem in Malta we need to extend the mandate of Maltese collecting societies which do not even exist we need to look at the objectives that's the point I think there's room for flexible exception plus kind of collective licensing arrangements as well
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I think you need both and that's kind of the view that we've taken in the Australian education sector the one danger I just have to point out if you don't have some public interest uses that are permitted within reason in relation to education you'll have the result which happens in Australia
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where we have a statutory license scheme that's set out seriously in 35 pages of the copyright act 5 lawyers understand it which I'm one of them and what that was set up for was to react to the photocopier then the law was updated in 2000 and then
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we had the internet when they updated the law in 2000 even think about the internet they were thinking about ebooks not about the internet, the internet has changed absolutely everything so suddenly because of the extension of the compulsory license and statutory license we suddenly found ourselves paying for stuff that no one in their right mind would pay for
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at all which is freely available internet material and so teachers are required to fill out survey forms not all teachers but the schools that were selected each year and suddenly we find ourselves paying for things on Google images or Flickr which you can't find the owner for or you're paying pope.org which I don't
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think the pope of the catholic church put anything up on the internet on the off chance an Australian school might actually copy it for education and they can get a license fee so you've just got to say the blanket license approach is very dangerous if you don't have exceptions to balance it out and it can end up creating a market that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world except for Australia
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so that's just a, you know so licensing, often you get told, oh licensing is the best solution and I go, it's not the only solution, it's part of the solution okay this is the final call if you have a question speak up right now, oh great it worked
53:41
a question to Delia I'm dealing with these things a lot and I wondered you said you could imagine a fair use scheme combined with some kind of remuneration scheme by collecting societies and every time you, I come up with that idea and talk to European people they say, well how can you allocate
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the money then how do you pay it, for what do you pay it if you don't have fixed rules right, nowadays it's like you can make a copy for school education purposes whatever it is and then you pay a quarter of a hundredth of a cent or whatever and then you can allocate the money somehow, right
54:21
it works more or less good but if you have a lump sum rule like a basic open norm, like fair use then it's even harder to allocate the money which you're pulling well that actually is the collecting society's role to exclude those types of materials and what I would be able to do
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because I negotiate with the collecting societies on behalf of all the schools in Australia and all the TAFEs in Australia so it's a, you know they don't have to come to each school and get it for instance and that happens in the UK and that happens in Canada as well with their collecting societies but it is possible because the way that they get the information in Australia is the
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certain number of schools record what they copy for ten weeks at different times of the year or they record what they do online for four weeks at different times of the year. That data is what the collecting societies use to work out who gets what and how much they get it. They also are required under processing protocols with us to exclude things
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like Creative Commons licensed material or material that's owned by the government or material that's clearly says that you can use this for educational purposes so that is the collecting societies role is to actually make sure that they have the right pot of work that they are distributing on and that is what their role is. They're not just sitting there and just taking
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data and not looking at it and saying just pay money to willy nilly their role is to actually work that out and as a National Copyright Director I should be able to sit down with them and work out some parameters and guidelines about what's in or out. One minute. Talk about giving us a lot of time. Thank you. Okay, so
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then interrupt this discussion for the last element of our session which is a request for your help. The copyright reform will not happen based on the work of a small group of activists. We also need support of people like you showing that this is important and in particular there are other issues being raised in this reform. Sometimes
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education and heritage feels just a bit side lined. I hope we convince you that this is about the fundamentals of our society. So what can you do? We're running a campaign called Let's Make Copyright Right right now for education and you can get your smartphone handy telephony or whatever you have. Go to copyright EU side
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you can choose your language. We've got I think 15 of them covered and sign our petition. This is pure click activism but it really works because then we take your support and show it in Brussels and it really makes a difference so we'll be very grateful for your help and also for sharing our campaign. And with this
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we'll end and leave you with your phones and hopefully you're typing away now very quickly and diligently. Delia, did you sign the campaign? Great, thank you very much. And thank you very much to all of you for this session.