Good morning everyone. I'm really happy to be back here to Republica one more year and really

really well accompanied by my friends here. So let me introduce myself briefly. My name is Giorgia. I have been working with the cultural activism and tech politics field for a while in Brazil now. Also in Berlin I lived here for a while. And since last year together with

some friends we opened up an institute. The name is Procomo Institute which would be commons in English. And since the beginning when we created the institute we have been thinking I mean what does it mean to be an organization nowadays. We have seen a lot of things happening

especially speaking from my part of the world since some years now Brazil is in chaos and in 2013 I don't know if you maybe remember there's a lot of people in the streets and by that time we realized that we needed new institutions not only political but also

NGOs and mediations, different kinds of mediations. So we opened up this institute that we say that to promote the agenda of the common goods, the free culture and citizen innovation

and since the beginning we are seeking to achieve an institutional and organizational model that we consider is appropriate. We don't really have the answers but we have a lot of questions to share and one thing that we have been so our promise is the promise of organization of the world need to be reinvented or are being we be I believe they are being

but the changes are slow and we have been working with a lot of partners also from Latin America in Iberoamerica with this concept of institutions and institutions. There's not so much about it in Portuguese but Antonio La Fuente which is a

Spanish intellectual researcher he talks a lot about peer-to-peer and commons he talks about a lot of this that appears in Foucault and other philosophers but mostly it speaks about this

the idea that the technology brought some ruptures and the new technology of information especially the internet led us to mobile arrangements so that deny what existed before and do not confirm stable models. So we are trying to understand in our organization what is inside and what is outside how can we be more flexible and dynamic but at the same time still

be sustainable and long-term. So we take this experiment as a methodology so we work with labs so we have this lab in Santos which is in the bay area which is a space for free culture and

innovation and where art and culture and science all from a grassroots perspective happen really decentralized to the bachata sanchista which is like seven cities in the bay area one hour from sampalo and we also have this org.lab which

is like a pool of organizations that gather together every month to discuss about all these things we're discussing here as well. So what should be the new forms of organization? So I was just a quick intro because we have here three experimental models

people that have been working with this for a long time now with different experiments some of them really still going on some of them are left behind but I'm sure you have a lot of new questions to bring so I'll pass to Ella Cago who I've met my very first time in Berlin

and she runs supermarket I don't know if you know it but it's a really nice space that's now in Kreuzberg and she's also working with the Templehof the city of Berlin also she's going to tell us a bit about her experience and please welcome. Thank you

thanks for the invitation and I'm really glad to be here to participate in that panel can you give me that oh yeah okay wonderful yeah as Georgia said my name is Ella Cago I'm co-founder of Supermarkt and what we mostly do is to engage with topics such as

alternative economies the commons and collaborative work practices I would say so we run community meetups at Supermarkt we organize workshops and events and for instance we have a workshop coming up on Friday that is about post money utopias and how a money

free world might function and today I would like to talk a little bit about the commons and also our right to the to the commons and also I would like to remind us that the commons is actually something we need to take care for and not just look at it as an utopia from former

times so also I think we do have a shared responsibility to protect our commons and we need to educate ourselves and the people around us about the commons yeah as I said some

some might think you know this idea that there is something out there that belongs to everybody that is actually a common good is I mean how can that function in especially in today's time where mainly everything now tends to become privatized how can that work isn't this just an utopia but despite all this thinking I think no it's not because if you look back

in the history of mankind the idea of the commons is actually something that is ingrained in our common history and especially in the not so far away past if you look at a city like Boston for instance there was a public space called the commons where people could

graze their animals or plant fruits or go for fishing if there would be a lake so this whole idea that there is a part of land it was mostly land actually that is for free use for everyone is is not an utopia as I said it it was there and it's actually an integral part

of our lives so if we ask ourselves why we are sitting here today and discussing the commons again so what what actually happened and why is it so important for us today to really re-appropriate this this whole idea as something that belongs to us I think there are a number

of reasons and it's totally not possible to pin it all down to maybe two or three but if we might look at around the 18th century with the rise of the agricultural revolution ongoing industrialization and also the rise of colonization all of that led to an ongoing

enclosure of public property that gradually got privatized more and more and if you if you read some research about the common there's a really interesting essay by Vandana Shiva she's an

Indian researcher and she says that in her essay the enclosure of the commons she she says that actually the the enclosure of the land was only the starting point today we are experiencing

an enclosure of knowledge of social justice and also of biodiversity so the question is we we can do better can't we because I guess it is part of human life to really want to do something together but then again there is also interesting research around the topic

and if we look at for instance what Garrett Hardin published in 1968 his essay about the tragedy of the commons is all about a dilemma that occurs if people with only their best intentions get together and really want to do something good for everyone and want to use

maybe a communal land that they are still driven by their self-interest and it's almost inevitably that at some point what is going to happen that that this this natural resource will be depleted even though everyone knows that it's not for the best interest of everyone

involved but he argues in his research that is happening and we can't avoid it so I mean that's a very negative perspective I would say but I just I just want to share this image and it's going on around the internet you probably know it it's in case you can't read

it it's it's this traffic jam and you see all these people in the car and everyone is thinking the same it's like it's if these idiots would just take the bus I could be home by now so we are all part of the of a of a shared organism or of a situation that we all

help to bring about but maybe there's this lack of understanding that there is a shared responsibility it's not only us and we expect action from the people outside but there is something like a shared responsibility and maybe uh and I hope we can talk about that today

it's it's about relearning what the strategies can be and the question is if we if we look at this input are the comments actually doomed is this something that we we can't really do better and I've been looking lately a lot into the work of Eleanor Ostrom she's a political scientist

and also Nobel prize winner and she's maybe one of the people that um yeah that that worked mainly on the commons throughout her life and what I really what I really find interesting

about her is that she's seeking a way of administering or governing the commons in a way that is really inclusive so she really calls everyone into action and I especially like this sentence uh that's for her it's absolutely uh normal that the best that that's actually the

the people that can solve problems are the people that are living in the situation that are living on the spot and it's not so much about having bureaucrats and politicians to take care of them but maybe finding a way to rather collaborating and not being administered by by

others she also really encourages us to take a fresh perspective into these domains that are usually separated the markets the government policies and also collective action and she's constantly asking herself how can we how can we think this as a whole and how we can how we

can uh bring these separated domains together so uh she has proposed eight principles for managing a commons and maybe we can come back to that so uh it's I'm I'm not going through each of them but uh what she's proposing is that uh it's all about setting up rules it's all

about in involving different stakeholders so she really favors polycentric approaches that uh include different people from different positions and interests and so she she proposes um some

really feasible um solutions a lot of them very accessible low cost and very much centered towards the people and the way they think and act and finally uh I think it's impossible today

to discuss the commons uh outside of the digital realm because no matter if we take care of a common land or any other natural resource everything we do has a direct implication on intellectual property rights on the control about information flow the way we manage our

data or the way our data is being managed and all of that so that is another perspective I hope we can also look into our discussion so that's it from me thanks thank you Ella

so really nice um just quick comments so one is I really like that how the commons there's some really important woman talking about it so Eleanor Ostrom Vandana Shiva and Siva Federici so I really recommend you to read the woman's and um I think there's two

things about what Ella's brought it's one thing is how can we be how can we be prepared to relate with the public politic the public policy and policymakers in this perspective because like from our experience in the in the incentives where we are we are now we have been trying to we we made like 15 meetings maybe with them and uh all the time we went we actually we

weren't asking anything we were offering just saying what we were doing look at what's happening and they don't really know how to react to it because it's really um tough infrastructure like a white elephant so I think this is something we need to think also how can we change

the infrastructure the juridical bureaucratic one and I I can tell because I have been to the other side I was also government one time once in my life in the past so I know it's really hard to react and how to deal with the commons it's a we tend to you know everything is public

and state and then everything becomes really bureaucratic and the other thing is about the digital commons I think that we really need to take action because it's not Autopia it's happening right now and it's on our hands so I think it's different to think oh maybe we should just

everybody should live in the you know in the river by the earth no we we can take action right now what's happening and I think it's really practical and it's concrete so now we go to Ricardo Ruiz who is also from Brazil. So Ricardo is um working uh with a lot of things

he's he's a developer he's a researcher and um he's also part of this uh Afro-Brazilian religion which is Candomblé and uh which is a really really great commons

and uh he will tell us a bit also about all this mix of things that he's dealing with. Good morning thanks everyone. Thank you very much for your presentation because

I am sure that it's not new we we we are not able to build new organizations for the commons or to establish new concepts for the commons because those organizations and concepts they are old they've been traveling with us for 10,000 years and maybe for the last I don't know 1,000

we are trying to lose that so I think it's much more I look into the past than to discover what are the new forms of relations um and maybe this is the example

um just like Giorgio told I'm a software developer but I would focus more on my religion now that is a kind of animalistic religion that came from the Yoruba land during the slavery period in

Brazil that comprehends Nigeria, Benin, Togo, Ghana, these parts and it's basically in celebrating the powers of energy the energies of the nature so this religion it it was established in 1832

and it's been prohibited until 1954 it was illegal to be part of this religion in Brazil but at the same time those societies that were managed by old women it's a matriarchal religion

took part took care of this mythology and these institutions throughout the years even though it was a crime and even though it was illegal it's very based on community living

sharing resources sharing food celebrating energies and things like this so what I think is really special is that we are based in drums and we are basically in rituals and most of the rituals

are the same thing of many religions is the ritual to feed yourself and to feed your brothers and sisters and sons and whatever and this is good about your presentation the piece of land

that was for the common was the piece of land that you used to grow food because this is the main ritual of life to produce food to the others and for yourself so we have some issues to establish a new concept of life or new concept of organizations

this old organization should do what it has been doing during all the time that is to take care of each other and to take care of each other is to feed each other with information with food with love with whatever and maybe your question in the cards

is my same question is that are we prepared to re-establish old relationships again are we prepared to grow food together with Stephen are we prepared one minute that's fine

so now we're going to I love how you're all going in the time so we're going to have time

to discuss thank you for that and um so now we're going to Stephen Kovats who I have also known for a while and also collaborated and Stephen has an well he has been working with open culture for a while and now he has a rug agency and he does a lot of work in South Sudan

and other countries so please Stephen yeah thank you very much Georgia and also thank you for the invitation actually all of us are already part of a kind of a comments we're all members of the the global innovation gathering which is a network of about 180 people who are working

very hard on sharing knowledge and resources and the work that I'm showing today very briefly relies on that whole not on that very simple concept of necessity to to share knowledge in your introduction you mentioned the connection to to civil society

in the in the scenarios that we're working in this image here is in in South Sudan in Juba the capital we're trying to build or to support the building of organizations that are actually being developed to create civil society structures so South Sudan is I mean we hear a

lot of bad news coming from there and there is very little good news from there but there are people who are working really hard on trying to create civil society structures and none of this is possible without the ability to to share your knowledge to share your resources

and and to basically institutionalize some kind of idea of comments because the compartmentalization is also part of the conflict small tribes small militias small political identities who

are constantly in conflict with with one another so this particular organization here is called J-hub it's the the Juba open knowledge and innovation hub it started up about two years ago it has very little outside support and it relies entirely on basically the

so the intellectual strength of young people come together with the shared vision I don't have the little clicky thingy sorry and did I just turn it off oh I pressed the forward button all right so

one of the oops I'll keep it keep it in my hand because now I've got to juggle one one of the things that we developed with this J-hub group last year was this thing called the open learning guide so South Sudan people are learning what is it how to get online

it's all complicated it's very difficult very few resources so we made this thing just a poster very very simple thing that collected a whole range of open source and open knowledge resources

that these people have been working with but they can't necessarily just put the stuff online and say okay follow this link because half the time or most more than half the time they're not online so they decide okay well let's make a poster out of it this poster is now kind of all over the place in South Sudan and other places where people are learning

about IT and and stuff like that it's just a very simple thing that can move around and and share information and knowledge where we sometimes sort of take advantage of the thing the idea that well we can easily get the stuff online it's all online resources but somehow you

have to figure out what they are and where they are so a very simple mechanism of knowledge sharing that works really well there and then turn it around the right side this organization got together and created whoops created oh man it's not my day here

create a thing called the the peace hack camp basically bringing peace builders hacktivists civil society people together in an event and this global innovation gathering group provided the workshop leaders so a bunch of people from the east african region came to

juba to run workshops for this group and again it's a very simple straightforward notion but you have to have sort of like i guess the um the cultural understanding that this is just

a straightforward thing and it's somehow it's not always clear that one can just step forward to say yeah i will run a workshop in a crazy place like um juba just to support these guys coming along um and do that maybe without any kind of fee or

because i've i've got my regular work i can share my knowledge and go there and do that um with them and and they um with this peace hack camp that community in juba is able to extend their reach into a much much larger um network into uh into africa and

some of the members are also here at republica um one of the young people who who is here jake sana he was a member of that community in juba he went back to his hometown in yay he set up the community development center also small innovation hub two months later it was run over by the the military it was destroyed he was thrown into jail he's on the run now um and is

a refugee in um in uganda um they've kind of gone offline but they've gone back with their um their activities via facebook and have set up this thing now called the peace village

so um he came to uganda kind of with one of these things in his pocket so this little poster um which came out of a knowledge sharing initiative in the country got kicked out of is now being used as the basic basis for trainings of other young people in this refugee camp

in uganda and so that's kind of a very practical very cool kind of way to share your share your share your knowledge so um i just wanted to give that as a little bit of a practical example of how that kind of thing can work in really complicated scenarios there's also some information here if you guys want to take some to get some background thanks thank you

so i have a lot of questions but i think we could just open maybe for discussion first and then we can talk together so if does anybody want to make a question

no i know it's early good morning hi here i want to understand better what is supermarked here in berlin it's both a physical space and the platform so we are existing since six years

now and we are a group of people that just that have a great interest let's say in in the common and in digital culture alternative economies and we constantly invite thinkers and makers

that deal with these topics to come to our space to give presentations and to invite others that are also interested in in sharing these ideas every now and then we also do some research like we have for instance created a feasibility study on the collaborative economy here in berlin

and we do all sorts of events and networking things um thank you great presentation guys uh so my question is for ricardo um very interesting about that old religion and my

friends and i were discussing in kenya the other day and we were saying that is old people really have a lot of knowledge and they are in the village and we are in the city and we really have time to consult them so this knowledge is sort of just going to die with them and that's very sad so i was wondering in your case in brazil is there any effort to document this knowledge about this religion yes uh nice interesting one interesting point for

example we have many the spiritual forces of nature we call orisha so let's call it orisha i will be simple to discuss that we have some auditions and some traditions for

auditions that is not cultivated in africa anymore that we keep cultivating in brazil so the documentation until i would say even to the 70s almost everything was oral tradition and it was skipped into the house it's very hierarchical system with the the woman top and

things but it's very preserved into the world orality in in from the sixth middle of the sixth to the seventies it started documentation of the music of course so you have some good albums from this period that documented the the songs and the song sings the tradition of

the yoruba land so in a way you will document we we have 100 of the rituals are singing in yoruba so we have this this documented process in music and maybe for the last 15 years now 10 years with some incentives of minister of culture in brazil during the the

beginning of 2000 jiberto's huge administration these things um you can see many houses documenting that process into web blogs and pictures a lot of pictures and in my house for

example we we cultivated the the energy of technology so it's quite easy for us we have a radio we have uh we develop a game for children with the mythology we have some web blogs with developers so in the last 15 years i would say that people realize the importance to document

their histories and what i think is most important thing is that people are documenting it by themselves and this is what is great you have some universities you have but most of the documentation process have been made by the by the population thank you

thank you thank you for this inspiring uh presentations um in the beginning georgia said three questions which i would like to get some more concrete answers to like what is inside what is outside or i would say how to communicate successfully inside and towards the outside how

can we be flexible and dynamic but also sustainable and long-term and what will be the new forms of organization but really more concretely hands-on and i would add the questions how do you manage to make it economically sustainable do you have some experiences so ideally i would

love to get like the handbook of commons-based organizations is there something like this no but we should do it thank you yeah really nice thank you for giving it back the questions so i think i'll just start but then we can maybe answer all of us i was also wanted to hear your

opinion on that um so what we are doing uh at the institution i mean the people that are working with me we all had different kinds of organizations so we have been part of collectives self-governance anarchists and also we've been part of the government and so now we are experimenting another part of being and with the lab it's

interesting because with the lab that we have because it's decentralized we created like a problem for us because now we have this whole network of people doing really nice stuff from like science uh like creating um solar uh solar heater like really cheap for the villages of

the indigenous people and so we are creating prototypes of science innovation but also arts and cultural traditions so now we have this complex network and um and we now look at them

and say what should we do with that now what what's inside and outside of the organization who are we are we everybody how do we so and what we're doing now is really being really transparent and um making the most of the information flow so i think it's also something

about access to knowledge and transparency and also understanding that it's a process you know that that we should experiment and i think that the lab context is a nice context of where you can experiment and um and we we have a grant from an international foundation

so for our foundation and we talk a lot about with our grant maker uh graciela and about how can we also generate other discussions about impact measurement that is not only

tangible ones but that can also serve for her as a report i'm not saying that whoo give me some money i'm not gonna do anything i mean but how can we measure the commons generated so this is where we are now so i don't know what maybe ela yeah since you just asked

about the economic perspective which i think is as equally important as the governance uh perspective because things can only work if you think all these domains together as i also try to introduce a little bit with eleanor ostrom's work i think she has some really good input especially for those questions that you asked um i think it's interesting to look

at the uh the rising movement of platform cooperativism that is now really going on all over the world and um what does it mean so this platform cooperativism movement is mainly a counter movement to what's going on in terms of platform capitalism so that we have

we have these uh huge enterprises that dominate the markets uh extracting data from everyone etc etc and we are helping these organizations to grow bigger and bigger by by adding our our own um data by giving away our rights so platform cooperativism the whole idea is that people get

together that they um for instance uh create uh an alternative to uber let's say create their own driving service which is organized around a software where everyone has access to the profit goes to everyone because everyone owns owns the organization and um everyone basically has the

right of democratically controlling what is going on because there is no one and only owner there is a shared ownership structure and of course these organizations try to implement new forms of governance as well they still do have a lot of problems because not everything is

solved like all the questions you asked it's fair enough to ask that and we need we really need to challenge uh ourselves with regards to these questions but I also have the feeling that especially those platform co-ops they are slowly growing into the answers just by trying and testing and learning and iterating their model on and on and on and if you look

at how many local initiatives are now coming up in many different cities all over the world that are challenging the platform capitalistic approach of Airbnb for instance if you look at fair BNB in Amsterdam it's a whole new model where the city and uh people that

rent out their apartments and the organizers try to create a model that benefits value for everyone and not just the um the enterprise itself so I believe uh there's a lot going on which is really neat to see what is happening where and how can we really capture all the

learnings that are taking place right now and again educating people that there are alternatives out there. I just wanted to add to that that this this question about the inside and outside is probably one of the greatest challenges I think to a lot of these organizations like defining who is everybody right when you say you know everyone can do this everyone

can do that um for sure in these organizations that we're dealing with um they always struggle with well who who belongs to the J-Hub community and they know they keep trying to say well you know everybody but of course there's an automatic barrier and hierarchy

and trying to kind of jump over that um is something that the people let's say on the inside and on the outside are constantly trying to get their heads around and it does of course have to do with you know the more transparent the more open uh the more inclusive your events are the more you can you can build that uh community but it's it's

definitely a struggle moment that that struggle I think is one that's when the sustainability starts to work um in all the in all the initiatives that I've been involved in um it's those ones that are restricting um this this inside approach the more they're the least um sustainable as soon as they can get over that and really um

understand um the potential of the broader community the people you don't know of um then the sustainability starts to to function thank you for your question man uh I was

thinking about how can I answer this if this yes we are or maybe we aren't I was trying to answer yes we are so into this community I would say so it's uh eighteen years process what I will tell you now eighteen is not that much but it's not few we are it's

upper age so I I would say that it's around thirty people into this community we have we have a band that plays it will play in Berlin in June I'll send the link Coco

bigada it's nice it's it's nice band uh we have a restaurant and it's not a chronological process we have a restaurant that works on the weekends with traditional food from the religion that is very well known in Brazil this this kind of food uh we have the radio

but it's not a commercial radio so it doesn't count we educated our children we have the schools for the children from the neighborhood uh we have around seven thousand square meters of land now that we grow fruits especially fruits many kinds of fruits

especially the ones that we need most into rituals coconuts and mangoes and six thousand kilometers of food of fruits we are now starting to harvest water to start to grow

vegetables that is more difficult than normal fruits fruits is quite easy we are starting to think about animals okay we need to have some chickens to have some eggs to have some goats uh we start to think on solar panels because we need some robotic stuffs to make things easier so I don't know if we we are or we were weren't but we are trying because

we are trying to produce our food admit this makes a holy difference you you are just a slave because you need to eat man thank you yeah maybe one comment or challenge to

you particularly but to all the initiatives who have so long term experience in managing common oriented projects it would be terribly useful for other people who start to

engage in such initiatives who do not have the same amount of experience to hand them over something which makes it easier to get started um so something like Eleanor Ostrom did as a lifelong project in understanding what are the eight principles of the commons and now

you can read these eight principles and yes that's kind of easy to understand to get into and something like that for the more also practical pragmatic issues as much as the discourse behind it would be a dream project for me thank you yeah and and maybe just just to

add to that because it's actually it's a really um it's a very relevant thing I think there's a lot going on that is not labeled as commons but still belongs integrally to the commons like the digital rights movement is something that relates directly to the commons

because it is about our natural right to inhabit a space where we can express ourselves where we can um just exist not by being um a consumer but where we can just be there and meet others and somehow nourish also what we need as human beings so this goes both for

the digital and the non-digital sphere if you can separate them at all which I would doubt but anyways I think uh your your um maybe to to just think that a little bit further it would be really essential to get a better understanding of all those different civic right uh

activists out there of all these different movements that even though they use different terms and maybe different tactics but in the end they they can only grow really strong if they get together at some point and um and try to discover what they have in common actually and how they can create uh like a shared effort anybody else? Hi there thanks for the

presentation um in particular the South Sudan um case study um I imagine part of the

question is um but how have you been able to operate in this environment with or without their support and if they're not very supportive um how are you trying to get such to such support thanks well the government right um so in South Sudan to begin with there's a very

big question as to who is the government so right now nobody really really knows so it's a ghost and it's a ghost that the less you deal with it probably the better off you are um and

the the initiative uh this JHUB initiative actually started by a group of um young medical students um who just you know needed to be able to talk and share some ideas about tech that they weren't able to do in any other way um and ended up through a peer

to peer structure setting up what became um a completely independent media academy um with no support whatsoever just because they're operating in this kind of a vacuum um and so

they've gotten used to this necessity to um you know take things in your own hands and just do it because you can't rely on organized structures certainly not on on governments and stuff um they've also been doing this stuff without any kind of like external funding um there's certainly no GIZ things going on there in terms of innovation

in South Sudan um so um that's why I was you know trying to reinforce the notion that you know it is just it's the strength uh you know the intellectual strength of those individuals uh to sort of see beyond the challenges um it it seems somehow almost banal to

say that but it's it's a survival strategy as well um to create those uh structures and then when they get successful they're getting successful because um other people have taken note of what they're doing and then want to come and support them and work with

them so um getting out of the bubble and getting your message out um is is part of that process um and I suppose at some point maybe the government or others will kind of see this and hopefully think that that's actually quite a good thing um they might also feel threatened by it you know and these guys never really know are they doing something

good or is it what they're doing being threatening like the guys in Ye who got attacked by the government they were obviously being threatened or they were felt that they were a threat to the um to the authorities um so it's uh that's the daily challenge.

Anybody else? Hey um thank you you're doing such an amazing work um everybody um I have a proposal to the question of who's inside and who's outside there's a really cool

collective in Hamburg it's called premium they do beer and coke and they are they determine who they want to collaborate with not in terms of anything uh other than their

mindset and I think that's really interesting because they say okay we collaborate with everybody who has a collaborative mindset I think that's a really nice idea because um you can have an enterprise you can be in the government it doesn't matter if you have a mindset of okay if we work together everything works better then you can join the

team I think that's maybe a nice way of thinking about it um and I also have a question um I think why markets are constantly expanding is not that they're more efficient or they have better outcomes than commons I think it's the contrary but the thing is that they are a self-reinforcing system every market grows and always eats up

everything else that's why we don't have the commons in Boston anymore basically um so my question is how can we build a self-reinforcing system in commons how can we build commons that constantly grow that constantly are not isolated systems but um get bigger

and bigger over time my proposal is a global tip I'm doing a startup called Tip Me and we collect tips for an in fair trade products so everybody every time you buy a fair trade coffee you can tip the people that made it and support the democratic structure help

them to buy their own land where they're uh working on and and yeah build commons basically so uh I don't know you're you're the experts what do you think? Give the question and the answer. I love it yeah. That's the struggle that's that's that's the

struggle uh and maybe the way of thinking is what trap us so uh how can we make it a self growing and let's make it grow with tips for example uh but if you think that just 28 or 27

percent of the bb gpe yeah just this is is is really constructed money and most of part

is investment money you will never be able using the same tool and the coin is the same tool because you don't make money with work they make money with money so the struggle is to think how to get out of the struggle not to go into that not to fight against not

be bigger how can be different how was it different uh it works if you give tips if you give association if you collaborate it it does work but it's it's nothing if the weapon

always money they've got to work with the weapon so we have to find new weapons maybe for this struggle music is the weapon. Well yeah it's a it's a super interesting

question but I I think maybe it's it's also well the the problem is if you if you compare markets to commons right so there is maybe a disadvantage because the the market is usually or market outcome is measured by money and it's something very universal

something we all understand so each of us knows how the business plan thinking works so if you want to look at the benefits and values that are being created by a commons or by communal thinking by collaborative uh working and living then maybe we need to expand

our notion of of economics and values a little bit and need to to cherish a little bit more what it actually means to profit from a commons in a way that um is that that brings equally benefits to everyone involved maybe in times when everyone is very happy and things are

looking fine maybe then uh we don't we tend to not to cherish that so much because we take it for granted right so the commons only exist in my opinion or we only start caring about the commons when we when we realize that they are under threat and the commons

never exist outside of a context and they always need a perspective or a specific point in history to uh become relevant for people and I guess nowadays um the chances are much better that people try to come back to this tradition of the commons and also to that

they that they want to uh um be in in a position where they can where they can understand what the benefits are and even though the profit might not be as big but maybe um other values that they uh um start to get become more valuable to them and

so I think it's a very interesting transition point uh which we are facing right now and I would like to get back to that question maybe in five or ten years time maybe there's a wider

acceptance than what the commons I don't know. I see that actually a lot more pessimistically I think we're in real danger um I mean just you know the what we see the you know the political tendencies and things that we've been saying you know in in states and in Europe um where you know everything we thought is we

are being told is not um and I think there's a certain point when that kind of like psychological flip around um really has you know big effect on on society and we have um I think our our tools of opposition um which are there um somehow we're we're losing the

strength to to kind of fight back and and and reclaim or further develop not just the commons but also what you're saying about um you know digital uh digital rights as as a commons um we have a lot of work to do it's it's really tough um I feel nervous about

waiting for five years and see what we've got like we need we need real action um and we need action now. Yeah let me just add to that your question remind me yesterday I was with Mugete that is here and she does like natural products from Kenya um you can buy it for him later she's

also going to speak today about the politics of what's the name the politics of hair natural natural hair and there was this guy approached us yesterday he was trying to understand what do you do but what exactly is that you do and I was trying to explain

and she was trying to explain what she does and he he he said to us it seems that people are like going back to do what we used to do before right so like natural products or and etc and so he stayed like for like 10 minutes saying and I just said yeah what you're saying basically is that we fuck it up and now we're trying to go back right

and um I think despite I also have I agree with Stephen that we really need to act right now but I also think that um the working in this organization now that it's really localized in the territory where I am uh it's the first time because before I wasn't

the federal government and you can imagine working in the federal government in Brazil so you're talking about the continental country like everything you do is never enough and it's really like big and macro everything so now really looking at the territory I see that um micropolitics is really important you know and it's really important to look to your

side this is why also I brought this different experience because I think like Stephen works in a really more like a global thing and uh also Ella she's really well in network in Europe and etc and Ricardo brought the experience of you know a territory that is generating commons and uh I have been there and I have been to I mean not to sell to them though but

I have been working with him and I have been for example to to the Tejero which is the name and uh it's not for only for the community that they are doing that you know because I also I am also influenced by this just and and they also uh like mine batchy which is

like the the priests yeah like my batch is like she's the mother and she's a really political figure in Brazil she speaks out she writes articles so I don't know what makes me wake up every day is that I know that a lot of people are waking up every day and I'm believing

so but I don't know if we have to the opposition between commons and markets is the way because we're never going to have a chance the way it is now so but this is why I believe in this platform cooperativeness and all these alternatives that we're developing maybe not as

fast as we should so maybe we need more people doing it so maybe we should just do this guide and everybody should open an organization okay I have we have like to finish can he make that last question okay yes short question short answer please try to make it fast hello

very interesting conversation I got here very nice to listen to you my question is very clear and simple I could like visit your cooperative spiritual place in Brazil I just say one word I worked since four or five years in Peru I try to influence people they have like no technology at all little internet or little ideas about it and I find it like really interesting to see

some concepts that are already growing have some success so and I think that's the answer of another man's question is we are here to exchange that to learn and to take something out to bring it to another places that's exactly where we are here I guess and I would like happy if later on we can like exchange complication options yeah that's it thank you okay so I think

that's it you want to make some any final remarks no I thought that was you know good one that's what we're here for to exchange those ideas and so thank you Georgia for wrangling us into

this and for you guys to come and thank you for participating we're happy to share our information cheers