AV-Portal 3.23.3 (4dfb8a34932102951b25870966c61d06d6b97156)

Digital Capitalism and Universal Basic Income

Video in TIB AV-Portal: Digital Capitalism and Universal Basic Income

Formal Metadata

Digital Capitalism and Universal Basic Income
Title of Series
CC Attribution - ShareAlike 3.0 Germany:
You are free to use, adapt and copy, distribute and transmit the work or content in adapted or unchanged form for any legal purpose as long as the work is attributed to the author in the manner specified by the author or licensor and the work or content is shared also in adapted form only under the conditions of this license.
Release Date

Content Metadata

Subject Area
The idea of a universal basic income (UBI) is moving beyond its "leftist utopia" status: According to Deutsche Telekom CEO Florian Höttges, digitalization will make the middle class of knowledge workers unemployed and UBI seems to be the only 'show in town' capable to save us. In his international bestseller "Post- Capitalism" Paul Mason even suggests that basic income will be the social welfare system of the 21st century. But there is also reason for doubt: Isn't the UBI a neoliberal strategy to make us all poorer in the end?
Process (computing) Hypermedia Computer animation Meeting/Interview Hypothesis Physical system
Rekursiv aufzählbare Menge Arm Meeting/Interview Universe (mathematics) Rule of inference
Addition Software engineering Meeting/Interview Expert system Authorization User-generated content Power (physics)
Meeting/Interview Ubiquitous computing output Right angle Freeware
Point (geometry) Service (economics) Open source Divisor State of matter Weight Simulated annealing Plot (narrative) Arithmetic mean Word Meeting/Interview Order (biology) Universe (mathematics)
Building Open source Meeting/Interview Term (mathematics) Universe (mathematics) Projective plane Table (information) Proper map
Point (geometry) Game controller Real number Multiplication sign System administrator Projective plane Instance (computer science) Number Voting Meeting/Interview Ubiquitous computing Order (biology) Universe (mathematics) Video game Software testing Right angle Data structure Data conversion Physical system
Revision control Goodness of fit Meeting/Interview Projective plane Content (media) Right angle Bit Mereology Number
Wage labour Compass (drafting) Weight Multiplication sign Bit Open set Streaming media Category of being Estimator Casting (performing arts) Process (computing) Bit rate Meeting/Interview Resultant
Dependent and independent variables Shift operator Service (economics) Meeting/Interview View (database) output Right angle Quicksort Perspective (visual) Flux Computer programming Vector potential
Point (geometry) Wage labour State of matter Multiplication sign Modal logic Perspective (visual) Power (physics) Meeting/Interview Order (biology) Universe (mathematics) Dispersion (chemistry) Freezing Position operator Physical system
Process (computing) Meeting/Interview Auditory masking Modal logic Digitizing Data conversion Physical system
Group action Software engineering Service (economics) View (database) Digitizing 1 (number) Maxima and minima Line (geometry) Process (computing) Voting Meeting/Interview Natural number Hypermedia Office suite Social class
Torus Digital filter Forcing (mathematics) Sheaf (mathematics) Perspective (visual) Web 2.0 Process (computing) Bit rate Commitment scheme Meeting/Interview Data acquisition Authorization Figurate number Physical system
Dependent and independent variables Wage labour Key (cryptography) Meeting/Interview Endliche Modelltheorie Measurement
Different (Kate Ryan album) Projective plane Sound effect Bit Right angle Parameter (computer programming) Mereology Machine vision Condition number
Game controller Wage labour Modal logic Multiplication sign Mass Mereology Inequality (mathematics) Rule of inference Product (business) Element (mathematics) Mechanism design Different (Kate Ryan album) Robotics Software testing Information security Position operator Physical system Boss Corporation Electronic mailing list Bit Arithmetic mean Process (computing) Personal digital assistant Universe (mathematics) Self-organization Pattern language Right angle Object (grammar) Family
Digital Revolution Robotics 1 (number) Right angle Machine vision Hand fan Physical system Element (mathematics)
Kernel (computing) Execution unit Core dump 1 (number) Right angle Hydraulic jump Physical system
Turing test Addition Randomization Service (economics) Constraint (mathematics) Expression Flow separation Exploit (computer security) 2 (number) Product (business) Ubiquitous computing Term (mathematics) Order (biology) Right angle Information security Condition number
Arithmetic mean Service (economics) Negative number Energy level Client (computing) Mereology Mathematical optimization Physical system
Process (computing) Divisor Meeting/Interview Order (biology) Planning Quicksort Number
Point (geometry) Wage labour Multiplication sign Software developer Forcing (mathematics) Moment (mathematics) Insertion loss Machine vision Neuroinformatik Number Product (business) Revision control Mathematics Process (computing) Bit rate Meeting/Interview Endliche Modelltheorie Data conversion Data structure Family God
Dependent and independent variables Building Multiplication sign Neighbourhood (graph theory) Interactive television 1 (number) Sound effect Parameter (computer programming) Mechanism design Meeting/Interview Ubiquitous computing String (computer science) Phase transition Video game Game theory Information security Macro (computer science) Condition number
Inheritance (object-oriented programming) Meeting/Interview State of matter Multiplication sign Sound effect Bit Data structure Family Event horizon Physical system Social class
Point (geometry) Context awareness Perfect group Concentric Multiplication sign Control flow Analytic set Digital signal Library catalog Instance (computer science) Measurement Power (physics) Inference Heegaard splitting Meeting/Interview Factory (trading post) Energy level Software framework Quicksort Routing
Point (geometry) Dependent and independent variables Service (economics) Multiplication sign Letterpress printing Sound effect Mereology Flow separation Perspective (visual) Goodness of fit Arithmetic mean Meeting/Interview Logic Term (mathematics) Universe (mathematics)
Point (geometry) View (database) Set (mathematics) Numbering scheme Online help Parameter (computer programming) Computer programming Mechanism design Roundness (object) Meeting/Interview Term (mathematics) Software testing Data structure Information security Metropolitan area network Focus (optics) Theory of relativity Inheritance (object-oriented programming) Projective plane Sound effect Process (computing) Logic Personal digital assistant Internet service provider Video game Right angle Quicksort Family Row (database)
Point (geometry) Existence Focus (optics) Open source Multiplication sign Parameter (computer programming) Mereology Flow separation Process (computing) Meeting/Interview Ubiquitous computing Robotics Order (biology) Video game Condition number
Point (geometry) Dynamical system Service (economics) State of matter Multiplication sign Direction (geometry) 1 (number) Power (physics) Hypothesis Meeting/Interview Ideal (ethics) Energy level Data structure Position operator Physical system Programming paradigm Shift operator Key (cryptography) Projective plane Moment (mathematics) Sound effect Software maintenance System call Order (biology) Quicksort Game theory
Point (geometry) Covering space Dependent and independent variables State of matter Survival analysis Online help Cartesian coordinate system Mathematics Strategy game Meeting/Interview Different (Kate Ryan album) Order (biology) Energy level Directed graph Physical system
Point (geometry) Meeting/Interview Universe (mathematics)
the and the and the and the
world the and the what who
Friedrich the you for the introduction and welcome to our session from my side within and I will be your house today um and yeah I thesis is so you many people say or think are universal basic income will be the social welfare system of the 21st century and that it kind of will be a lifesaver for all of us who will probably use their jobs due to digitalization some but we kind of want to ask is and maybe also on basically the neoliberal idea that will make us all per in the end and I want to
start with AD short show of hands all you had the chance like this with set a couple months ago to vote of 4 of universal basic income bidding schools as combined come on rule would vote in favor would say yes we want to have you all in it of that but that's good and on would
say no and good so we have about
98 per cent and I would say it in favor I want to ask you
and maybe some undecided that's true I'll ask this question again at the end of the power and we'll see maybe if this has changed from arm with me on the stage here there's Dimitri kind the some he's off the of the total Communist
Manifesto critical thinker and software engineer engineer based surveillance and he's much more money tried to shore and we have me at 7 that she's all sociologistic an armed campaign of
all the and NGO may contain come here and will and we have to mow
down he's author and expert for additional capitalism and he had 1st idea actually to initiate this panel with the uh with all of us here at the end ah yeah keep out looking for his book that will come out in this fall about
user-generated capitalism I'm how will this whole power work on my will give
each palace now 5 minutes to shortly introduce there idea to give
us an input I'm and after these 15 minutes I will try to open this the immediately up for a discussion here in the audience that you involved on OK
so Dimitri you can take the money hello from and unusually on it was a great question it was really used to see how
many people are for her I UBI and the people are against it like to ask a follow-up question how many people therefore I'm free public health care thank you how many how many people think that everybody's a right to a home so this quite quite a lot of people now on how about if I if a universal basic income came at the expense of free public health care had instead of free public health care which is the support of the people
so almost nobody's so that really is the question is what is the incoming meaning
of universal basic income words are coming from so I think the question of if it's a neoliberal idea is is not really a question I think that's a factor that is a new liberal ideas and most most fundamental has been supported by all kinds of people for a Joseph boys and she was committed outside and and other people but but not really from the point you've economists if you look at if you look at its economic history it's history in economic thought it so it's so I'm not looking at random people that may have opinions about it it is clear the new liberal idea supported by the weights of the Friedmann developed as a guarantee annealing coming in and in some of his books and he's very clear about the purpose of it his purpose of it is to eliminate the rag bag as he puts it of public services that other state currently provides i in order to privatize in order to t find and privatized this is the main this is the main purpose of of of of of freedom proposal and the reason why a lot of new liberal economists supported supported today so they are coming after your health care they are coming after your apartment support that is the purpose is to capitalism has a problem called poverty I guess maybe some of you have already noticed that and
and and and poverty is the proper capitalism as such because for capitalism sexual motivation to lower your wages so actually like poverty poverty is a
problem for them because it creates a political lobbies died because it creates the ability to to build campaigns in politics and poverty allows for people to create movements around poverty and this is what they need to undermine this it would be to stop so they want something that sounds like a solution for poverty but actually isn't right so that's why it's in your liberal trap universal basic income is meant to get you to believe that this is the solution when in fact with the what they really wanted do is defined and privatize public institutions
and they're very clear about this they write about this and if you look at the exact actual projects there on the table from the Atlantic Canada and they're always coast exactly those terms there's always expressed as being I
funded by savings in otherwise public spending and this is this is great for some people and very appealing for some people if you're kind of on you know our idea on our able bodied professional our that's you know have a lot of social capital a very comfortable life then this might actually working out quite well for you but if your summary with disabilities if you're somebody was having other career trouble and then and you hear somebody lucky depending on social infrastructure and this could be a very very young very poor deal I imagine for instance if you're disabled person if you're disabled person and everybody has the same universal basic income because the concept of universality means no testing which means everybody is the same in the eyes of universal basic income um then that you're going have to choose between perhaps getting the special medical equipment that you need for your house and without other things that you could spend on like education or or or or perhaps nutrition should you have to make trade-offs right and unlike actual institutions like housing because institutions like public health care institutions funding projects really easy to cancel the stroke of a pen you can you can just simply pass a lot to reduce the number in the funding in the funding system where as and when you have established institutions these are much harder to dismantle because they have an administration they have they have a constituency that will support that will support on this is exactly what we want to do that so in order to privatize hospitals in order to extend the privatization of real estate in order to attack when controls and other supports for housing they want to create they wanna create a system where instead of any government involvement in any of that they simply give you money and when they give you money this means that the provisioning of social structure the provisioning which required the money is still delivered by the market so it's still a capitalist provisioning so this is the main point is that the use of the capitalist in charge of the provisioning of health care of housing of education of child care of senior care of all the other things in our community and so people say they support you UBI what they really mean is they want people to have houses we wanted to have education they want people to have health care and so we need to support these things directly we need the support basic outcomes not basic incomes lead to support the right to housing the right to health the right to education and to not get distracted by new liberal attempts to switch the conversation to a market based system and I guess that's probably a pretty good summary of the critique will have more time to discuss and agree with the audience so I'll leave it at that for now so you think review through
the few known pass them on to me the thank you at 1st of all I would like to say I am an advocate for the basic income but and knowledge coming up in health care and and
ends at 9 1 tank on look you know also the main content from will version and we don't have a fixed concepts of what basic income is we're allowed 1 thousand euros a month but everything else is an apt to a political debate so what we do with health care what we do with education what we do that with the right to housing is not something that we figured out that we want to be part of political negotiations than those make but we still have to do so I'm going to tell you about the the project we're doing which I think I think we have yeah been loving very loud for the last 2 and a half years and and
I will tell you how and why and the basic income as being the guy as a solution to a a lot like a really high number of social problems with a thing In that sense of the little bit like exercise or good diet
that helps with about everything and the name of few things we have a mental health crisis we have disengaged employees throughout our economy and we have we're facing climate change we don't have enough people who take care of other people all or young people like the whole cast sector and this completely underdeveloped and as well and these are the problems with facing today and they are more to come I mean we had ripple because so you all know all a little bit about what's going to happen and but especially the labor market will change completely and like the most optimistic estimations that will have an unemployment rate of 12 % and the most pessimistic and think that will be about 50 % and so they're more problems to come but an but people are right to have a lot of open questions about the idea of basic and some people ask you know where people get lazy what would happen to our jobs what will happen to our health care and and can we trust each other which is very difficult for a lot of people to do and how will the labor market develop etc cetera so what we're doing at 1 promise to just tried out and we do that a crowdfunding basic and found a whenever we have from the 12 thousand euros we wrestled amount to random person and and of them a basic income for years and we've done that 85 times so far ants the result every year they that there really simple but they also really incredible because almost all of the basic income recipients tell us that they sleep so that they're more relaxed at the health improved and that they get more creative a lot of them they finally find the courage to realize some of their you know all those streams they develop more compassion for themselves and for their fellow human beings and they developed a bigger interest in politics and society and what's really interesting is that a lot of these when as they only realize home arts existential feel they once they have the basic income and how much it weight them down so my question is like I ask my fellow of we could all drop the weight of the existential FIA what this lake what kind of potential those
would be for our society in face of all the problems they just names and yes and I
really excited to the Gustav potential with you and to a lot of out loud some all you
hear and then the last of the 3 inputs will be diagonal them how the rising uh this a little bit up and you're
talking me but also about some uh further away uh when it comes to a basic income what do these 3 gentlemen have in common that they all educated some sort of a basic income uh on the left we have Milton Friedman spearhead of Chicago Boys he stands for the perspective of a new liberal rights as uh outlined by to in this talk small government abolition of social services in a shift the 2 of the responsibility to what's to the individual and that's the program in his view of basic income becomes a privately managed investment with every single person has to manage an amount of money given to them in the middle you find users boys uh German fluxes happening in performance artist and was known to have promoted a basic income and from a leftist perspective according to him
everybody is entitled to basic credit from the state which guarantees participation and satisfaction of needs the left and I would like to include myself at this point like uh about this concept of the that's it's Freeze people there was the potential to free people from the positions of derogatory social welfare systems and the necessity to sell once labor power on the market in order to survive resulting in free time to do meaningful things that mirror pretty much to go on a dispersant perspective if I might say and the 3rd and this role that even mass the founder and CEO of Tesla Motors business magnate inventor the
engineer and on an investor he stands for a whole new rationale when it comes to basic income the 3rd way if you want to the just so you could say he just said recently and I quote there's a pretty good chance and we end up with a universal basic income or something like that but you to automation and he continues if the chance to Robert automation keeps up millions
of humans could lose their jobs by the middle of this century former US President Barack Obama agrees with mask on the threat of automation and the necessity of a
system uh like basic income in a conversation with wire editor-in-chief um Scott damage at MIT Media Lab director Joe Obama predicted quote we will be debating the issue for the next 10 or 20 years and court same in Germany the in the next 2 thousand 16 experience the late 2000 15 . come see also impact is on the left was the 1st captain of industry to speak out in favor of basic income naming it I quote a good idea as a consequence of digitization and automation and
later on 2016 joking has are in the middle CEO of Siemens 1 of the front-runners in industry 4 . 0 technologies says it's coming let's hear this justification Jack wrote not everyone can become a software engineer the the and IT continues foreseeably some will follow astern simply because they are not able to and keep up with the speed that society has taken on quote it so according to K as a basic income is not some liberating extra money for the creative class and it's solutions for a future army of not software engineers meaning although still working the old industry in um services and offices and whose jobs will be abolished but it to capture this talks about suspended but they're not gang to lecture media like to uh call them the social group a and that is talking about the losers of digitization uh the ones that receive it would remain on the line because they do not come along with 21st century natural economy and they are to be fobbed off with a minimum to survive they become sidelined from the economy of began in Kansas view is I think it is and uh basically uh they become sidelined from the economy and and a smart society of the future while you might say
desperately voting for tram and i've date and voting themselves into bankruptcy so there is this Costa
rejoicing that all those lives just figures uh backing animosity tori utopian social welfare system rather not in the perspective of a use uh industry leaders basic income is a flat rate for the poor UBI it will become the hearts here of the coming decades feel sections however because when to the work the web has become superfluous apparently capitalism known needs to force people into work because there will be no jobs for them to be forced into last but not least on the left uh Finnish Road operate on author of the just recent uh you published best-selling book utopia for realists says referring to an IQ income and I
think I have to raise my fists where Quantico to the coat this and where was let's give everybody a basic income venture capital for the people that's what you would commitments
as an so let me finish um capitalism apparently is about that to enter a new stage in which less and less direct labor is exploited it finds new ways for capital to reproduce itself and serves basic income as a pocket money for the pariahs of the new of this new model and be firm creative micro money if all this the creative self capitalists and that would be us thank you
few no it's OK if you have on the stage a direct response to that the measure you know and and and of course and if there's questions from the audience you can know already given years sigh and home you know we will pass the michaelson to you when there's of key that there and Jenny also with mikes so let's get the discussion going from the so far take well
yeah I guess so income I think is I but did all of this this in our project and I think we need to to speak about this experience a little bit of a different way because of economic think we can we can we can determine the macroeconomic effects of something for a small experiment 85 people so the interesting part there was mentioned is that you know things like basic you know the the income does make people lazy and I think this is uh that this has been a key argument on the right for a long time that that if we make the conditions are working editions less harsh the people work so become of the become more lazy and I think that I think that projects like my like my middle-income work approaches to address that artistically however politically and economically while we're here in Germany in the home of the great Social Democratic party with
once great and and I think I think we had around a much greater vision at 1
time for how we can emancipate humanity to not be changed to the the labor of capitalism that we had before and just simply giving people money I was not exactly it so I think when you look at what we think that what we look at you I'm asking what you are Muskens concerned is he really concerned about people not having jobs or he concerned that he will be the 1 that owns the robots right so it's a solution really being aimed at the well-being of the people or a solution aimed at a society in which he can maintain his position as being a capitalist that owns a massive production organization and that all the robots right whatever we on the robots and what we could plan things differently what if we can realize the dreams of Kolakowski anuria speedy people of making society of opened storehouse for all where people can have access to the necessities they need not simply money that to negotiate markets to buy and so I think that's the that's the key difference on the my mind income part I think an important part there is that give the money people don't become lazy they just to other things they do things for the community for their families for themselves for acoustic reasons and that's a good thing and that's what the left has been argued for a long time against the kind of agonism of the right the claims that if you make things better for workers will become lazy and less productive so you need like you know strict our bosses to like to like to swept them into working right but this idea of a 3rd way I think whenever you're the 3rd way it should raise raise suspicion because it's usually missing something and what's missing here is that capitalism has a particular mechanic and the black elements that everybody on that list is a non-economist or very right wing and and you know people like the 1 last 1 to perpetuate the system of economic of capitalism they wanna keep the system going and this is what they're worried about the worried about losing control of the robot with about losing control of the system and not be with the solute products so rather than having y than having you fight for outcomes outcomes like education like housing like health care like food security they want you to fight for an income so you can give that income to them on the market and capitalism has certain rules there is a prices system which means prices come from the availability of money right I mean even Friedman would agree with that was monitors and so the idea of giving you more money just means that the prices for necessities will rise so not only is a new liberal idea whose primary objective is to take away your health care take away your housing and privatize things but even if you were to active and even if they it would just simply caused prices to rise and you have a news Europe so what previously cost a certain amount of money which is simply cost a bit more and people who were poor before would still be poor people were rich before was still be rich less think a simple example say have a say of a community with the 100 houses right and the poor people have worst houses and the rich people have the best houses if you give everybody in the community of thousand euros a month what's going to happen the poor people will still have the worst houses and the rich people will still have the best houses the idea that you can have this kind of universal basic income you can fix social inequality without any means testing without actually looking at the case of the people is a very fantasy idea and once again patterns are more about its mean for this
if and I would just like to point out that the idea of basic encompass not the idea of a complete welfare 5th this
1 element of 11 of them and I'm not opposed to the idea that the people only the robots but I'm still a fan of the idea that I get like a certain amount of money and then I can decide what I want and what I want to spend it on and I think the complete whether them off the future would have a basic income but of course we need to make sure that everybody has like go home and access to health care I don't think that's a contradiction and I don't think well we debate basic income that's an even older system and I appreciate that all causes in on the question of interest of the capitalist and everything but it's like the what I feel is the right 1 that and the left ones that and they want that but I would like to remember everyone that it's also real people and that we need to defy what we want for the future at what we want from our weather system and then make it happen and this is my vision that that people remember that it's not some you no predetermined outcome of this digital revolution of basic income all the weather the we have now
few who just a quick reply them what
I like the most about basic income or whether it is an experiment of all religious social utopia is the aspect that detaches work from surviving and you mentioned Dimitri you do remember to register and uh speedier that Social Democrats and at the core values of social democracy and of the and and Protestant work ethic is that you have to work and you get you get a decent wage for that and if you don't work as long tradition and that Europe Europe Dabbler and you use something units unity decent today you being readmitted to hospital you know and and that this detachment to say OK and if you don't have to work still have the right to citizenship and to survive and to have your basic needs are covered I think they're still in the masturbatory kernel in this thing yeah
have the system now we want to also like give you all the chance to late jump
in because you know we still have 30 minutes and on the other way you you have 30 seconds and then I already see that so many hands here so they will open has
that we here knows the expression rationale and
that and 3 bucks will get you a cup of coffee in Starbucks anyway it's very American expression so that that's that's and 3 bucks will get you a cup of coffee in Starbucks and so this is kind of how I feel about the UBI in addition to social services kind of thing so yes once we accomplish our housing security health security income security child security education security and all the other things were fighting for maybe we can also a basic income for some random pocket money for some chewing gum or something like that on who can be against that be a reason to vote against up with the idea of this is going to achieve any kind of social outnumber the idea that we can even achieve that is the question here is the question the question is not would be nice to get people money the question is how do we address the social concerns how would address people being on you know exploited by capitalist if we want to if we want to stop that exploitation we have together you know question kabbalism itself right so we can't we can't just we can't just use universal basic income to make people no longer tied to the to the need to contribute to the economy in order to consume from the economy if you wanna sever if you wanna sever consumption from production than several totally the not even based on a marketer a price then make the condition the housing and health reveals unconditional itself right you're only doing it half if you're saying that OK we're going to give you some money which led to spend on the market because they're still constraints it and the and and limited to a certain amount of consumption right and so in terms of this UBI + ture why not I mean like whatever as long as it got published of services 1st and as long as we understand the existing campaigns UBI are to privatize the social services and right now we're losing the fight to so anyway honesty looking at the social financing the fight for housing and health care and education that were winning that fight we can make additional demand for pocket money for gum cigarettes I think that's fictitious politics I think that's simply not looking at the political the political situation honestly and openly in understanding the scope of the fight we have ahead of us do you have these
please raise the end of the week in the that there so the yes is work yeah
OK just a quick question I'm pretty surprise that Milton Friedman was not good for basic income as a capitalist a new liberal I myself am a capitalists and I oppose the basic income fully I don't believe in the system like completed with the client and that prices will rise a packet of cheese will cost 150 will cost 1 thousand your 50 basically if for the basic income will come and the only solution for basic income would be universal 1 which you guys that also and also mentioned so this would be a solution but I don't really see the parts of Europe and parts of Asia and Africa due at the same level so we could actually come up with a solution where 1 thousand EUR here is you know the same value as 1 thousand here in Africa so I think that we have certain dangers in the future the optimization is gonna get rid of the service sector that basically uh freed many people but at the end of the day month and then understand this we don't really live in a capitalistic world unfortunately as I might say so I'm pretty surprised that the people don't even sell very left this idea of a basic income is accomplice ago even neoliberal ideas looking Friedman was not good for the negative income tax which is the mean of a basic income and then at the end of the day the last 10 years of his work even get rid of this idea said that you know he that we want to abolish welfare system by coming up with a negative income tax but it was not the for basic income should we collect maybe some
questions are remarks i and I have done yet for said
they I would have to disagree with you to meet you just because you know I I don't think it's a solution so the number of full proponent of basic income because the basic factors
that these jobs are going away so you have to do something that that is reality we can argue that economics and economic plans the reality is these jobs are these jobs are disappearing and so we need something to to deal with that and if you you read the and germ line they influence the future there's a giant sucking sound and it's all the money going up to the top so I think that the promise that's the reality and you do have to have some sort of basic income In order to deal with that and how you structure economically seems to me a
secondary issue the only this this whole idea of autumn on a
mission that unemployment is another like complicated popular topic of conversation on and but if you're gonna make those claims that this is the numbers to back it up because labor force respiration rate globally have not gone down either as technological point of productivity increases so we don't see it we don't see that a phenomenon of the theoretical phenomenon there's a change in the job structure for certain jobs are going where other jobs are coming the global labor force to call you pulp of global poetry in labor force is as big as it it as it has ever been in history and on the growing so this idea of unemployment I'd like to see some qualification for that certain kinds of jobs in certain kinds of places yes we don't have glass blowers anymore we may not have we may not have medics that look at your memorize anymore that may be done by our computer vision on jobs will change but the idea the overall number of jobs is going down that either the season data for having some kind of scope and for this discussion OK you know that the and you can google the data would the higher the to the and I would like to reply that I really sad about this because I had such an idealist and I consider myself you know I consider myself to be on the left side of things and I thought 0 my god basic income that can free us all and make a more creative than you know give us more time to get politically involved in everything and by now because of all these developments Fig while it's just in all the necessary like I don't know what else we're going to do and it's like that's why I think you know I'm not opposing you with an other version of utopia I just don't have the you talking I just think that the 1st stage uh for everyone who will be affected and by these developments and it's also 1st and the other people who already are affected by these developments because what we look at the numbers of mental health issues and this economy of so really really scary and when I see how many people hold on to a jobs that xt hurt them physically and mentally I I just think we really need the basic income so you know just like better research for all of the here we haven't seen minus any something is the is just just just 2 quick uh remarks and I think we uh that captures this changing its CTR is changing work like the work and that's that what for lifetime that supports a family wage and weakened by your as worker you folks and support family and uh etc. I think that's a that's a model of the of the past and captures this is itself developed a new model and I think I might like it or not I think kabbalism itself is developing a new model which consists in micro jobs the loss of a basic income so to say and and it is but but if capitalism succeeds in in freeing us from work so to say there will be a great achievement of counters that really embrace that and but of course that's not the end of its time in the air gap is creates all these possibilities that we even are freed from work uh potentially and that's that would be the ideal moment for us to take over and OK and then we have more legal that we have more
questions of of the quick response and then we have to leave you in the back there was direct on interact and OK they meet they can respond and then we have more his questions I I completely agree that some of that some people learn very bad situation that the economic conditions of our grading desperation
I and II disagrees with the new here I think I think this is the case for for a for a for a very long time and I think that and when you are when you when you say i that we need be which you really mean is these people need to have the ability to live stable the without the stresses and concerns not UBI specifically but the need to have these problems taken away and and the problems are really coming from you know the actual social infrastructure is not specifically a lack of UBI are its lack of housing market health care lack of like food security lack of lack of ability to have a secure life and UBI is not the only possible approach we can take to solve this and in fact as an approach it won't work because it depends on a market mechanism that will ensure that all games are lost prices I know this sounds like a very hard argument to understand when you think about a macro level you you you you understand that if you give everybody a thousand dollars just stick back to my very simple neighborhood example the 100 houses the poor the poorest people have for the worst ones the richest people have the best ones you give all of them a thousand dollars explain to me how this can increase the housing of the of the poor you take a thousand dollars from the people and the good houses I believe no 1 of the also the 1 thousand this is quite so but why why leave the capitalists in charge of the houses 1 I just wanna just take the money from the 4 0 4 from which we believe you need to we can get the chemical taxation itself which is a much more complicated and which work on the discussion but what I just built the house is given to be given to the people why depend on the market mechanism I try to inject income and you know I can and try to push on a string as a condom and economist trying to use monetary are means to great economic outcomes right the metaphor of pushing on a string i think illustrates that really well you're trying to create an effect on here but instead of pulling from this side you're pushing from this side dramatically this throw more money into the into the market and leave the market alone as it is that that will have the outcome you want 1 just achieve the outcome you want by simply 1 housing build housing a phase however you know
I can think but it from because there's the little bit attached to the idea of a market and I think I really think it's easier to introduce the universal basic income and as opposed to like abolishing the market is the events of that with careful about the way the way I know yeah big there yeah I can't that's not really late so I say something incredibly stupid please forgive me but I'm very muted PPI idea I'd like to spread it and like to think it's a good idea I am in Germany this is done when it comes to paying for parents and then taking care of the children and the system was supposed to support the lowest income families that they could take better care of their children spend more time with from work take better care of the children in the backfiring effects of it was that the state has spent a huge amount of money on the middle class family that then takes a three-month sabbatical off and goes traveling around the world which is fantastic for then bytes the lower income families are investing the money that the given on diapers and still struggling to make ends meet it seems kind of like there could have been more effective ways to invest that money and I kind of see that same frustrating structure being replicable if it came CBI would my missing what you're referring to the can
Germany OK on the was this is
it's you have the idea because we have so many people in their hands of the yeah over the so intended to yeah yeah on the other further the the would not work and if but well I have 2 points to make and the first one would be and that uh the problem lies in the way the UBI is promoted because you take an idea and you remove all the political frameworks it may be embedded in that makes it much smaller and allows everyone to sort of you will get in on the matter but it also gets the people in that we might use the UBI well for political purposes that like country to amend furry purposes and so while this might be some sort of backlash of bold marketing idea of the UPI that you take something you make it so small that it seems the perfect fantasy for everything and uh in the end the question we ought to ask is what will it solving the and come and if you embed the UPI analytical framework such as is done by DM for instance of and then you have a much broader catalog of measures to embed so this would be the 1st point and for the 2nd point is that an route relying on power because basically when you take the BI you create 1 huge level so for all the measures related to well a redistribution of health care housing and whatever and so you just give 1 big layer to the leaders in charge and then that makes it much easier to change because that's just 1 inevitable then the wall a whole catalog of measures so this would be a question that sort of rather toys to the wall the way you BIC implemented because this could be well solved by simply splitting up the UBI inferences thousands of various basic measures of which would remove the whole lever aspect but nevertheless this is a point to consider because you give Apollo concentration that has never been seen before to a leader in charge and I wouldn't say that democracy is a stable as it is as we've seen with drum or at the break it's this would be something to take into account the thank you thank you from the place and manner half of course and more questions I I saw before it but is Jenny the the hello I'm elected just come introduces the method by them produce Bergman is actually Austin but the taught in Ann Arbor for a long time and he them basically to I think a lead and is not very well known in the whole context he basically took all the unemployed people
from the Ford factories in Detroit and to help them to to work through their free time and to develop things that they wanted to do with their time and then basically produce is like an early precursor of of the maker movement if you want to do to produce their own things in their own stuff and have them 1 so what he would do it with their basic and universal
income and he would that you said that he he thought it would be much better to actually have like a 3rd of the time devoted for public things like helping the elderly you know things you mentioned earlier and and then having uh 3rd for the time for them for personal purposes in the 1st 3rd 3 times as 0 that's the concept that's not very much talked about in in the whole debate around universal basic income and I'm I think it's really worth some talking about his ideas did you develop that stuff in the sixties and seventies way ahead of everybody else so if you want to print of Bergman a good reference point
thinking on OK we have direct response to the idea of having a reply to the 1st on the to the 1st term a the new set of at the 1st person and we like to we like to think of money as a means to access things uh like you I get thousand euros OK that gives me access to a lot of things and but I think this perspective has to be turned around because money in the 1st place is a means to separate the stuff that's already there uh 1 example there is a housing and I'm with the 2 medium in many in this part we we agree there and there is food and it's a it's a social services there is a lot of good stuff out there and then everything gets a price tag uh and that separates things from us like we don't people can access them directly anymore but the virus-mediated which is money that's it the basic effect is there 2 separate to to uh to uh to narrow the from the access to to those goods so and and that the earth and another problem money is this money has to turn its own logic into investment and if you have them and everyone everyone who has 1 of 5 thousand euros on on his or her checking account starts to the nervous at this money has to work for me after invested to do something with it just can't have just leave it to rot and logic and it's it's stronger than the than than we are so I think we're to turn to this around and ask OK how can we access directly uh to the things we need
OK you wait for them I please because we can't really you it I was in the yeah not yet I others or sorry did I understand correctly then logically we need to have no money whatsoever we just need direct access to them Social Security's and not to invest money in anything I'd I I don't understand the logic behind how that changes how middle income families have a high luxury that they can be using while very low income families will continue to struggle with their investments that was like I think I
think actually starting with the original concept so virtual point you made at the beginning of this round of comments I think this is very illustrative right when you have an income support mechanism that income support mechanism creates like market outcomes that reflect the existing the existing structure of of a market so in your example and if you got money was instead of instead of instead of directed as a as a funding solution was an infrastructure solutions provided infrastructure to support war low-income parents in terms of in terms of the actual infrastructure they need from availability to and I don't wanna speak to what those people need but you know you mentioned diverse although diapers perhaps childcare an hour for working mothers and so there is a there is you can you can find the actual programs but the that will help these people and will also help middle-income people of course or even income schemes and was income schemes funding schemes always have and the same kind of market effect as as a variable structure exists amplified right that is that that the that has requested you want be more specific it's more like his work focus on what you're after trying to achieve right so if you want educate children provide education for children don't give parents money that they will give the capitalist to provide the education of children because you you want to have a social outcome that you wanna have so Focus on the Outcomes and of course and it's it's very easy to take any arguments are you know to to absurdum that construct an argument ad absurdum is always quite easy so it's always easy to imagine what are we talking about an economy of no money at all right and you know if you look at the if you look at the rise of the socialist the uh the the the concept of a society as an open storehouse for all this there is a good concept that is a leading constant but nobody should suggest a imagine that we can just simply get there to get there is a political question which brings us to the 2nd comment there but do young and I'm out of here sort of get a Cervantes I mean who here I think of him as somebody who can legitimately change Europe the so there was less of it we have to we can have more questions or and but I really like this so what with the lady bring bring up with overlap up with this idea of comparing it to the the anything we have in Germany which is what we call in in in German molded people make it so it's something fake and like I think it was in the beginning it was never meant to actually provide people with 1 thousand I attended euros if you if you look at it Europe only eligible for that if you if you really earn a lot of money and I think what we can't really take from this discussion or maybe or scissors learning is that you know you need to be honest and what you really really I'm asking for when you ask for a universal basic income I I really like the approach that mirror in their own mind 1 income that they actually do it and give it to people and actually in your case you do it on top on the top of false having a job or whatever off on top of having the you know maybe hard-sphere or you don't like asking questions to understand it correctly so uh and that people actually work with it and create the life's around this for 1 year so I think I mean to have this kind of a practical so I know you didn't have before 90 people it's not so much but in the end it's of if you really thing of like what will future look like we have to have also these these tests ground you know I think from your handicap catalyst point of view it's and the criticism always comes easy set sort of you know what I mean make it said tied-triphone because the prejudice but as we have the standard it's 1 of our project that this is not a social as but let's think more of prices we have I have no I promise to this man you're in the front row and then is is that ok so I relation have
different opinions around the table and like the discussion and although I am for the UVI relaxing of the Rios Dimitri here and that an opposing opposing opinion there is someone to as discussed this with but then there are 2 major you wanna say something about like the way in which you make your argument just thing was not quite fair I you introduce the URI UBI as new liberal idea and you mentioned a lot of several times as a new new liberal idea and I think you you say that in order to discredit it because like not is nobody wants to be called a neoliberal including me but I think we're all of us including you we also smarter than that just because maybe originally meant treatments introduced this and he was in the as I I don't care whether he came up with the idea 1st whether he was in the order of the process like we we can we we can discuss this thing apart from that and then also your some later we always some talk about they like the the people that support the reaI and I think without that he also mean like the new new literalists and then you set um they are afraid that we will take away their robots that kind of thing but we just so that uh 98 % of the people here are full you realize if you talk about them you mean 98 % of the people in this room and do you really think we are all afraid for our so i mean of few I I I don't want either what I wanna speak for other people in this room like that can speak for themselves when I say it's a new liberal idea I mean that's an existing community of people that
using this idea and we need to confront them whichever whichever way whichever part of the camp you wanna put yourself in the this is the actual political movement that's actually currently pushing through social welfare retrenchment all over the world and is actually happening in real life right now but the focus knows that free welcomes experience Greece and and so this is what I mean I mean this is an actual political tendency that we need to confront right now and these are the ideas and purpose of that tendency I don't necessarily mean anybody supports them is part of that same thing I don't even think the necessary just because and somebody from the new liberal School of Economics says something it's wrong new liberal School of Economics also occasionally that's correct things that capture the agree the 2 plus 2 equals 4 so we call that a neoliberal agree idea just because Milton Friedman also says that at the point the point is the point is is that is that this is an actual existing political tendencies that is actually like currently I'm like lowering working conditions more in social conditions in the whole world right now we need to be confronted and so what I'm trying to tell you is this is the way that this and it's community this tendency is thinking and you can read their own literature as well and this is where and this is what I mean so we can speak to everybody that might support UBI is a new liberal I mean at the exact same thing existing neoliberal poker tendency things this way here and I was yet we have so this will question here and then of the person or you have a might and you can start working and and just a short question
um you so we have to focus directly on outcomes and I'm not going to give funding to fulfill the outcomes of people and I think what if you don't know what the outcomes should be effective we have cultural explosion much more subcultures uh the and the evolving and I I don't think it's possible to so and find out which all kinds you want to to have so give the people money then they can decide for themselves which outcome they want to have and work here maintenance food it has I also like that they do so much because and I think you have an open what is is a storehouse of the the nite idea but I think and in this call it's like those sold the same social democratic philosophy
with the now that the states while the people that govern that they know best what people need and that we know all came diagnose I good example I think everybody knew that was when they have children but still what with the way we've been thing on the market over the last decades that wouldn't have been possible without the market dynamic and I appreciate that I just don't like the side effects and I think UBA I could really help with them and carry and don't ones people deciding and what we need and yeah and what I would say and in the SOS whether the we see the same thing they say OK that we only offer you the 7th this which we think an I useful so if the unemployed that's not useful to pay your money and if you have children yeah that's useful and we think you need this amount of money to raise the child if you study we think you need this amount of money and through the child and I think they're like 150 of these soldiers over them and they're all designed and some industries and everything and I think to simplify that and to give the people more power now with money and the market I think that's just the most realistic scenario and then we can talk about it all other utopias so users on an injustice Georgia involvement and I think maybe we have to we all have to mature uh at this uh at this moment where we are now because I think will that we're living in a paradigm shift basic income the key is becoming these these days a project uh from from the ones in power and we are and that the situation we had before where basic income wasn't not interesting idea and and often and and masturbatory idea to fight existing social service systems and uh old structures etc. maybe this sweet times is gone now this uh this will be my my thesis there is a year the basic income project from the from the ones of power and we have to react on that do we the a company that say OK this is the right direction but we fight for a leftist sort of more of a democratic or an alternative and try to make the best out of out of it or do we oppose it entirely and and I think that would be the uh the debate it's that maybe it would be necessary rather than being a you again sigh you in favor of basic yeah that's a good point and connect can add something we only have to work with its level would you do game because you can go to as you know the I always the same you know move they can I then at that that's that something that really worries me about those and communist position because I think instead of and In order for got thing what we can do now always utopia as best I I wish the left would just you know get into the debate over what kind of basic income we need because it gives us the poses because of not perfect not ideal not just in now it is users have those effected don't want you leave the idea exactly to the neoliberal and that we need people who have their hearts in the right place we need people want social justice to claim the concept and they than the ideal of a new whether it around the concept for all of us the point made a have fries how far ahead of your question I just wanted to say I don't you think that's the the whole discussion on a universal basic
income has just a huge elephant general if we are not mentioning that axis because taxation may be the single most important issue here and if we want to do in the universal basic income without dismantling the whole system uh helping people who need help most we will need huge amounts of money much more than we can and will then we get in different states from taxes right now and then the question is can we allow corporations to pay just make up but being got that means that starts uh less than 1 % of can we allow will to be as energy state as survival again competent combining and the sink like DE taxation in uh strategy the most important thing in order not to lock people eat that kind or what situation with that make universal basic income and know it but I agree
funding is a big topic but 1 minute we can cover tax economics we could talk after and I just wanna respond this final comments because there's a typical actually right wing talking point that it's the right wing this being practical that's making realistic solutions while the left wing is being idealist and like and like wanting scary big changes when actually reality is the basic income as being betrayed is not a realistic solution but what is a realistic solution is defending housing defending health care and this is what the left is actually doing right now in the streets every day not like pretending that we can solve problems with some magical money from various thank you OK
I don't think it possible for me to to wrap this up I mean what I take from this discussion is that the whole or debate about UBI about universal basic income kinds of kind of the you know it's growing up is uh you know leaving behind the infancy and we really need to have are hard to hard to ticks discussion about it and I am a
young and pretty overwhelmed by all these different points there that came up in this discussion I maybe your 2 and if you want to follow up we published our free text on a billion as at the in German by these 3 people and we
have a very very lively discussions are on these texts there are it's in German but astill please go there and join the discussion and thank you all for being here things and things are clear burn or cross at