Yes, thank you very much I will ask especially two people about this and I want you to ask questions as well We've got an hour for this whole discussion and we will have a microphone in Somewhere there which you can use whenever you feel like it

for Especially for questions not so much comments, but rather questions and not so much Comments disguised as questions, but actually questions and So my left is Francesca Bria, who is the okay? Let me take out my note, so I get it correctly chief technology and digital innovation officer at the city of Barcelona and also

The EU coordinator for the descent project on direct democracy and digital currency Francesca is advising governments and companies around the world on Internet and innovation policies and to my far left. I should have put you the other way around

Left and far left know that let's see to my far left is Christian records the Berlin state secretary for digitization at the Senate Department for economy as an answer while tongue for Wirtschaft in a ghee and petri be The former executive board of Wikimedia and also former vice president corporate corporate

communications at the battle span foundations And also in charge of the and here we start the buzzwords smart city strategy of Berlin now We will talk about that and how to frame that bit differently in a minute

So maybe let's start with that a bit Now you've been in office for about a hundred days, I think and Now you're in charge of this smart city thing and so on and what does Berlin actually do to be smart and what makes Berlin smart?

All right, a lot of questions. Yes. I'm I started office December 9th to be really precise Yes, I'm permanent secretary At the Senate for economics energy and

Public enterprises, I would say I've never I've never looked up the official the official English translation and and yes, digitalization is an important part of it because as you all know digitalization goes goes through all the economic spheres and So part of my job is actually to look at at digitalization

To start a digital strategy dialogue here in in Berlin and do this together with other Stakeholders in the Senate and to be really precise smart city is something which is located at the zenat's Kanslei So we have to we have to find a good a good party do at this at this at this point

If we if we look at Barcelona at the moment Barcelona used to be a smart city if I recall correctly And is not really a smart city anymore. Does that mean it's a stupid city? What what is is Barcelona now? Right. So I think our job is to get rid of the buzzword immediately. So that's what we're gonna do

So I've been yeah I'm also kind of new in office. Actually, I've been nominated by our mayor at the Colau last June To be the digital commissioner meaning I'm in charge of defining the digital strategy information and technology policy and aligning different departments of a city all to define the future of

a city that's technologically but also that can serve the people and The main reason why they picked the only Italian in a catalogue government She's myself and they created the new role that didn't exist before so I'm now sitting in the government

While before the chief technology and innovation officer in Barcelona was a technical role So it would lead the technology company of the city, but it wasn't part of the government and why I'm also a woman Which is I think a very important thing in an industry and the sector that's very much male-dominated

The reason why I'm there was to completely redefine What is my city is and how we see that in Barcelona? And I think this is a lot to do with having a political conversation about what is my city is and how this should align with the policy of the city and in particular how

citizens should be at the core of shaping the digital and technology agenda of the city which which means also Rethinking technologies for the people and not just for a purpose of some kind of you know Economic planning or some corporate agenda, so I don't know if you're all familiar with the situation in Barcelona

But I think it's it's good to remind a little bit the novelty or the innovation that we having in the government in Barcelona so our mayor comes from popular movements She used she used to be an activist fighting against house eviction

So she used to be part of a of a big coalition in Barcelona that was Fighting this very criminal law that was evicting many many people in Barcelona didn't have a house She was elected into government after a long wave of mobilization

Which is named like the indignados movement or the 15m movement in Barcelona, which basically represent a big Social mobilization against austerity policy and against the corruption that there was in the in the political Elite I would say and so she is we are a radical new experiment a very new government

Where the majority of the people in power now in government are not professional politicians, so she's coming from the The citizen movement many people in charge in the government are like that like citizens that are in the institution to change Things me myself. I'm not a professional politician. So basically

just to Rethink that before they say the experts. I mean if you if you if you put it like that You also have to know See the novelty into the fact that we are actually has Citizens represented citizens in the institution and try to rethink the way that policy happens. So why all this

Introduction is big for because I think that the important thing about redefining this my city Agenda has been a really rethinking government so rethinking how government works rethinking the participation of citizens into the policy making process and then

thinking technology much more as a tool to implement the policies of the government and not basically a Technology driven policy where the government then ends up solving the problems of the technology instead of Instead of basically solving citizen problems. So we are very much now Aligning the technology to what citizen needs and and and start from there instead of starting from the technology first

And this is a big change. I mean, it sounds it sounds like a small thing But it's actually a very big change. And so the main difference I would frame it this way. There is no Digital revolution without a democratic revolution first, which means you really have to start work from the citizens what they need

and the other thing is You cannot go with the technology first. So although it is really important to think about infrastructure connectivity Sensor and data you cannot start with that. You cannot start rolling out that you have to start from

What what the city needs and this is exactly what we're doing And how does that look a bit more concretely? Like how would you actually get to know what citizens need and what do you do with that? Yeah Well, it's a very good question. I mean first of all our plan and

Moving away. I don't think we reject the idea of this smart city if for this my city mean we mean a Technological city we actually want to use technology to improve the the the city I think What we are talking about in our plan, which is the Barcelona digital city plan

we talk about tourists technological sovereignty, which is a concept that we're really pushing forward to understand this question of Popular sovereignty. So what we mean by that is not just a state sovereignty where you know The state just take decision on behalf of the citizens

Through a representative process that may be corrupted or not, but it's really experimenting ways by which Citizens through participation and civic engagement can really be part of indicating the way Where where the city is going so this has very practical aspect from some very radical

Participatory processes that we're running which involve a hybrid of online participation Digital democracy participation with an open-source platform that we built and offline participation with citizen assemblies and consultation We had more than 40,000 citizens that made proposals and ideas and participated into the shaping of the digital

strategy And of many key policies of the cities from urban planning to culture to mobility to Participatory budgeting so we have many different things that we're doing through this participatory

process where citizens are involved and it also means Basically it has it has a very practical approach of Thinking for instance, how do we get? The citizens to know how we're spending the budget. No, and this is a part of transparency agenda

That's very much also at the core of how can citizens be more Participating into this is first of all, they need to know what government does So this is not obvious to citizens because governments are pretty opaque Sometimes you know and this is I mean we're talking about citizens, but also for instance this crowd

I mean these stakeholders that are here that may Republican grade I think you should be the main people that should tell Christian what to do with the digital strategy I mean meaning we do not only mean citizens are affected by specific policy We also mean you know people that make technology build technology make innovation Happen have the talent and should be part of this process

In order to know what's happening. We need to be open and so we need to you know Explain how we're spending our budget Explain how procurement work So this is a very unsexy word procurement almost like taxation that you will debate in the next panel

But it's very important because a lot of what government does is spending citizen money to implement a policy and there is a way That you can make procurement much closer to people like you in this audience And this is what we're doing in Barcelona like putting closes in procurement contracts where we mandate that there is

Sustainability that there is labor standards that there is gender standards that there is innovation standards So that smaller companies that have the capacity to help the government can run these big contracts so that the smart city doesn't only become a tool for the big corporations that have the Ability to understand how government contracts work and then to run infrastructure large-scale infrastructure

To run it but in a way through procurement and to making this kind of regulation clear and transparent We can make possible for smaller companies that have you know free software open hardware open data I mean all the stuff that you do in here to come and work with the city to help us building a different smart city

So these are just some of the of the ways in which we actually implementing this Participatory approach to the smart city and a great moment to remind all of you if you want to ask a question You can just raise your hand and then someone with a microphone will come to you

Christian if we look at the smart city strategy of Berlin that was written by the previous government The 40 pages mainly contain links to technology and IT companies and if you look for actual links to Democratic ways of people deciding on it. You don't really find a lot of that

now in the coalition's attack and then the coalition contract I guess The coalition said that you want an update of that strategy. Can you say a bit about what that actually means? Yeah, we we are we are we are just starting this process I have to I have to say the current situation in

Berlin is is Actually when when when when I entered office It was for me like a puzzle. We have certain certain things in place We have we have we have a paper on a digital strategy We have the smart city strategy Which is in the introduction not too bad because it it is un buzzing the buzzword smart city

It bit because it's as well talking about what actually Berlin needs because we are talking about a city which is growing rapidly So we have to focus on issues like mobility energy and actually need Technology to to improve certain certain areas not for the sake of technology

So so the goal is now to bring this to bring this together when we talk about digitalization when we talk about smart city and and find a good way to to develop a midterm strategy

Actually for the next years and as you said this is this is what we what we agreed in the coalition agreement that we are That we are going to do this that we are going to do this on a participatory way So we want to want to talk about this We we want to discuss how to how to involve people in this and how to how to integrate the projects

Which are already labeled as smart city, which which are actually going on in the city There's lots of there's lots of thing going on and with all different stakeholders Trying to find very very very exciting new ways in mobility or in how to create my my local space

Differently we have network smart city next word So our task is now actually to bring this to bring this in a in a good way together And this is this is what we know what we know started to discuss actually It's not that I'm that I can sit here now with a with a with a long strategy paper

Which is already finished which? Actually wouldn't wouldn't wouldn't be possible because as I said, we we want to do this in a dialogue way And now you're working for a city, which is especially poor I'd say like money wise and with with all of these Innovations coming to smart city. There's always the big question of of who pays for it

Well, maybe maybe to Barcelona No, I think it's a great question, I mean first of all because it allow us to Also open up a little bit. What usually is the

technological debate about You know smart city, which I mean in a crowd like this one, it would be maybe more about You know concerns over privacy over information self-determination over surveillance like saying You know this my city can look like a big panopticon where you are monitoring citizens. You're aggregating this data the data get used

Intensively by few corporation, but the concern would be mainly about privacy and surveillance I think there is another very important part and the debate that we need to have which is about the democratization of the data intensive economy and that's where

I think not only we have to think about who is paying for this my city But what kind of economic models and mothers of the future which is also about the future of work? Because it all I mean the impact that this digital technologies are having on our life We will determine the future of the economy and the future of work and start

You know asking more and more questions about what is happening with the free stance Digital platforms that today dominate the market Which is very concentrated and sometimes look like a big oligarch police I mean the digital economy is very concentrated and that's cities what we can do to enable different economic

Models so different economic models for instance where data is not used as a commodity But data is used as a public resource as a common good Acknowledging that data belong to the citizens and it's you know, it should be protected with ethics and and and and All of that, but also what is this more mutualistic cooperative collaborative economic model that we can put in place

So in Barcelona for instance and this we open up and I'll get to who's paying for it because I know the question is also broader involves public private financing and all these different schemes but I think there is there is a

Something to say about for instance in Barcelona. We have had and it's in the paper So everybody probably saw it a few problems with platforms like Airbnb I mean uber is actually banned in in Spain for the moment So we didn't have issues but immediately I mean track taxi drivers are striking all the time that they hear the word uber and

I mean the question with Airbnb for us is very clear. I mean, Barcelona is a government that's trying to implement really Progressive social housing policies so to increase the number of social housing make it housing affordable We are strunging a lot to control the price of housing the price of rent, which is going up very much

I think Berlin has a similar problem and clearly these platforms like our B&B are having an impact which affects this kind of policies very much and And and and I mean they're taking out a lot of residential apartments into short-term rentals

We have problems because many of these corporations don't pay taxes locally. We have issues because Transparency of algorithms and you know, this is not there And so it's very hard for government to regulate something that you don't know so I think it's actually very urgent to have a Conversation about what data intensive economies we can

Put forward for the future, but also respecting labor standards I mean putting people not in kind of precarious situation and making sure that we're using Technology and data as a common good not only as something to be extracted by few corporations And actually there was the the first page of the economist of this of this week that reminding us which is talking about the new

Resource the new extractivism. It's not anymore about raw material it's about data and there are only few corporations that can extract this data and then through artificial intelligence investment mine this data and

Use it to improve the world So we're gonna rely on very few companies none of which is based in Europe And so it is a problem for us that can do this So I think I see this we can put forward alternatives and then finally I think on infrastructure and who can fund this I mean clearly you need the private sector on board I mean you need to collaborate with companies and you need to make a strategy

I think the important thing for cities is that you have a clear public return So, you know if there is investment and if public companies if private companies are investing and are doing their activities You have to make sure that there is a public return for the for the city and their citizens Which is paying taxes, of course and that that there is not disruptive models that really disrupt

Citizen lives like in the case of Airbnb for instance where there is an issue and On technology infrastructure for instance Barcelona is owning its own fiber network Like we are we have the property of fiber We have laid out over 300 kilometers of fiber. The city is very sensor eyes

We have open sensor network with open standards. I mean the platform for open Open sensor urban platform of Barcelona can be reused by Berlin and by other cities. It's open protocols is open standards We own the fiber and we are creating a data platform that based on open source on open standards and it's API

Are very well documented. I think this is a way to go for cities as well Which is about how can you manage urban technology infrastructure in a different way so that city retains some of the control And maybe maybe to say one or two words about Berlin it's it's then I don't see it anymore that that Berlin is not the

city of innovation and as well not not not not not the city on investments if you see this at the moment Berlin is outgrowing Germany by economic growth every every 20 20 hours. There's a start-up founded here in in in Berlin

Half of the venture capital which is which is spent in in Germany is invested here in Berlin Innovations, I don't know you using using IT technology is I think 12 percent points higher than in whole Germany You have all the conferences you have to you have the university. So and

Many many many many players want to want to invest in Berlin and want to want to want to create or Help help developing the city in a smart intelligent way further So there are many people starting projects in the city and all different all different scales

Okay, now we've got different questions, where's the microphone I can't see the microphone here Okay, so I've got one here and one over there. Thank you very much appreciate particularly the presentation by Barcelona Francisca and laying out your approach

democracy leads technology and making references very practical tool of participatory budgeting there's a very concrete way of doing that which is through crowd sourcing that different alternative Projects are being presented and then this is made the decision-making process for allocating resources

My question is how far are you willing to actually walk down this road it has risks involved because a small group can dominate and Minorities may not be adequately reflected But at the same time it would be a way to get out of just standard budgeting where you basically

Continue just what has been done before with little changes up and down You can do it directly directly, okay I think you need to experiment with different with different models. I mean first of all I want to go back to what I

said before Really, we are running I mean our main innovation in Barcelona is happening in how we are changing government itself I mean thinking that would just what you said how far you're willing to go. I mean we are I mean the the coalition governed in Barcelona is really coming from citizen movements

It's a very different way of thinking about government where it's citizen participation is the core and the main value of what we do And this is not just for technology It's for the key policies that we're running if it's affordable housing if it's a sustainable mobility if it's energy

Transition if it's you know urban planning. I mean for instance the main participation process was run I mean on the government agenda as I said before but the other one is on urban planning so Barcelona as a project is called superblocks which is very Actually a very innovative urban planning process where we are restricting traffic in the different areas of town

Creating blocks where cars cannot enter and this is also for I mean co2 emission to control pollution To create more pedestrian roads and green spaces and all of that. It's radically changing the city So we have done that it was implemented through a very large-scale Participatory processes where one part was budgeting

So one part was about putting a budget and get communities to choose and prioritize the way to spend the budget But other parts were just discussing, you know, how it should be done how it should be implemented where it should happen I mean you have many different things that you can discuss. I mean money and participatory budget is just a part of that

so I think you know in terms of where you're willing far you're willing to go I mean we are going pretty far in a way of involving the population in today's and the participatory approaches are not just Online where you see all the resulting minority of the population participating

I mean we are finding very different ways to involve in the citizens through assemblies through Consultation getting out in the street Going into the neighborhood level some of the participatory processes happen at neighborhood level Where you really go to people that they wouldn't usually participate in the process. So I mean this of course within the

Policy program for which we've been elected. So of course there is still a top-down approach Which is about defining the lines of the policies. That is the reason why we are there So you always have that kind of balance But I do think that the participatory Also budgeting processes that we're running are very successful because also citizens

I mean feel not only they're contributing ideas and and and and you know up or like giving some Comments to some policies, but they're also Contributing where the budget is allocated and then they can track and monitor how projects are implemented So, you know, it's it's enriching. I think the democratic process

Okay, I've got another one here and then in the back and then the third one here hi I was wondering how you define the limits of smart city

Especially since you brought up the super blocks concept So when you say smart city, is that a technological thing for you? Is it a general urban planning livability thing and I'd like to direct this question to both Barcelona and Berlin And secondarily, how do you publicize these efforts because I think I've literally heard more about Barcelona's efforts in this area Than anything from Berlin and I live in Berlin. So how do you make sure that it's it gets publicized?

And how do you get people involved? That's a good question It's No, it's it's it's it's part of the debate. We are we are we are we are now doing we have it

We have we have smart city defined in this strategy paper from 2015 really really really There is a definition. I can't I can't recall now now precisely but what we what what what what what we were agreeing on that we are looking into this and Actually actually asking is is this the definition from the definition in from the project which are which are which are outlines

So what we what we agreed in the coalition is to starter to start a process there and The the part about publicizing things in Berlin is something something where I'm still learning We are we are working many in in many ways in silos

And on a on a on a ground level in the in the in the certain districts of Berlin, but as well in the in the different houses of the Senate And trying to find because this is something you have to do talking about digital talking about smart city Trying to trying to find ways coming out of the silos. It starts with data. It's it goes farther with information

We do have a platform where you can participate in certain processes But no not all processes are documented they are not all processes are Handled there in a similar way. So to ask ourselves actually how to how to make this Better and that at that place. So from from a Berlin perspective

I can say and it's on the agenda and we are we are we are looking into that Yeah, I think I mean There are contexts where the term smart city keeps being used because basically, there is just a market that's created around it and you know

You have a lot of conferences that cause my city actually Barcelona still hosts one of the biggest of the smart city Expo that is gonna happen in November And that's the reason why you continue to use this wording I mean, we all know that the smart city was branded by big technology firms I mean Cisco EBM Siemens and so on that had the strategy that was very much technology led. Yes, and so

The the definition of smart city was I mean about big Urban redevelopment plans where technology was a big part of it and you have proprietary operating systems that run, you know different urban processes now, I think that we are at a point where

connectivity data sensor and AI it's pretty ubiquitous, so the city is Instrumented with all of this infrastructure in this technology And so it's very hard to disentangle what you do for instance in your energy strategy

Or what you do in your urban or mobility policy or how you're thinking about, you know Water management or waste management without thinking about technology and that's where I think it's a problem Where we are not able to link the technology with exactly how we are running our

Infrastructure and our public services the technology is a part of it So the conversation shouldn't just be focused on the technology It should be focused about what kind of system do we want for instance about you know energy? What is our energy system who is running the energy network? What is the business model? How are we providing the services to the citizens? How what is the management of it? Yes

Technology is a part of this so if you forget technology, then you end up in a place where the big technology firms are the ones setting the Strategy and not the city anymore. So I think that Technology can become I mean as I was saying before for instance

Running the technology infrastructure in a specific way making sure that you have a data strategy by which you know Ownership of data is guaranteed that you have ethics that you use encryption We're not for the rights of the citizens that you use the data to enhance the public services I mean all of this can really improve the way you run

you run your Your policies and so basically I think they cannot be a lot of what we do now. It's about data in Barcelona It's really about redefining who owns the data are at the citizen in charge I mean the citizens basically own all this data Do they know for what the data is used for and how we can use the data to really improve decision-making?

processes and to really improve public services and be and be sure that you know This strategy is shared because I think this is one of the core issue of the digital economy will be around this not democratization over data So when we talk about ownership of data

And we look at public data on well or processed by administrations I think one of the big challenges is that a lot of people working in the administration think that the data they work with is their data, right so Christiane I think that goes to you. Do you see a lot of challenges with that in Berlin with actually

still trying to Convince the the administration to open up Yeah, I would say that's that's that's the biggest the biggest part of this whole thing We we do have we do have open data here in in Berlin. We have an open data platform

I think we have 1,200 data sets on it which which which is which is not I don't know looking at the data potential of Berlin and What you what you could think when you would what you could do and think about about data is not it's not it's not a lot and and Yes, you do have technological problems you do have data silos

You don't have a have a have a common common technical open data strategy but the the major thing is is it's a culture like you described it and To make it normal to think how to how to actually make data usable Yeah, and publish data make it available

and not to protect it and a Big a big issue with this is of course you had a you had a you had a you had some years in in public administration Where where where the people working there were limited and limited and limited so public administration

Got smaller and smaller. So you haven't many so when you when you look at many processes we are we are we are we are we are still discussing how to make the process work itself and and Not to extend a certain a certain process, which is in the head of many many people something when you talk about open data I have to do something extra I have to take care

I don't have to take care that somebody is getting a certain license or that that that that I run a certain process I have to do something additional and actually I'm Talking about the value behind this not not not not just as a public good, but for the administration itself It's certainly a big big thing

We have to we have to do and I think I think we are we are we are not on such a bad way We just introduced a government law in in Berlin, which is which is rather good Which which incorporated open open data and and what we what we started in the first hundred days is actually to discuss the major fields of

open data for Berlin to actually get it into into a law and Discussing this means as well to talk about processes to talk about culture and how to actually implement this in in In Berlin because it's not just not just a legal framework you you need talking talking about open data

You gotta run to the corner over there Yeah, and and then over here. Yeah Awesome. Thank you all very much. Very informative. I wondered if you could talk a little bit about Current institutions and cities across the world. Do they have the tools at their disposal to be able to

create new offices or on the human resource level for for data protection Both Barcelona and Berlin are I think special in some the city culture But if this is any city a second tier city in a random country using the strategies that we're talking about now

Do City councils do state institutions that oversee city councils. Do you think the institutions currently have the capacity to absorb the oversight for Smart cities or do we need to reconceptualize? the way that also

protections built into institutions to ensure that even if the worst people Were to get hold of the system that it would still be safe to individuals Well, I think you know with the new data protection directive for instance in Barcelona We are already, you know started in process of making sure that we do

impact assessment With all the critical infrastructure that we run and you know, we do have competent people inside the administration But also you have to understand I mean see this really work as an ecosystem most of the time So if you do not have the competence inside

you always have an institution or a way to link to local academia or University research or expertise Locally that help the city to do the job I think when it comes to data protection actually usually cities are very well connected to the education officers and there is Expertise around the legal stuff now

I think the challenging thing there is to link the legal part and the jurisprudential part with the with the technology and the and the encryption technologies and all the real technology that Make sure that this is implemented right and all the processes and so we are for instance now working on that

We have a project that uses. I mean that looks at distributed data architecture looking at blockchain But also how to complement that with security and encryption and using attribute-based encryption when it's about Dealing with personal data and I think I mean Hopefully we're not the only one I mean we are really thinking about this kind of things right now and because we think this is very central to the to

The policies because everything is data intensive. So although you're not aware of it, you know city-run processes You can call it smart city or you can call it some something else Digitalization is happening. I mean we have lows. I don't know the case of Germany we have a national law where digitalization is basically, you know is rolling out at national level

The cities have to implement it. I mean this means introducing a payment system digital IDs You know making making sure that everything is kind of getting digitalized so at the core you need to sort out your data strategy making sure that you have the

Citizens right at the very core of what you do. Otherwise, I mean you're doing it worse than Yeah, then the companies but I think the capability has to be built also in the institution because I mean the institution can guarantee That citizens rights are respected. I mean this doesn't happen. I mean you may say there are big corporations have better engineers

Yes, that's true But they have less incentive to keep the citizens rights at the core what they do because they monetize the data So the institution can really not look at how do we build the citizen right at the core because we want to provide public services in in return

So there is an incentive there to do it to do it. Well And I can add from a Berlin perspective when when whenever a new project in Berlin is introduced like we are we are Currently currently expecting a project where you where you test automatic driving Around the brunt of a gate or and when we talk about an energy project

Which is called wind note that that data and data security is always one of the biggest issue Which is which is which is which is checked while while while looking at this at this project So this is this is always always an issue and if I may add I mean this this is not the only Capability you may lack in government for instance. I mean we have we are also migrating

We have a migration towards open-source open-source software in the city hall of Barcelona Because we think this is more effective is more efficient. It allows cities to reuse the applications They produce through use services It avoids lock-in it allows interoperability and all of that

And I mean the thing is they used you used to have better competence where the city were investing in this So if this is are investing in free and open-source software They invest also in the capabilities to run these processes if you externalize everything and you start using only Property system and you rely only a few providers then you lose your capability

So I think the entire digitalization strategies which should be about building this core capability Inside and then work with the ecosystem to make sure that your providers are partner and they are not Like you're not only, you know contract driven situation where the city is just in the hands of few providers

so it's really about changing this relationship with the providers and making sure the cities have the capability to run this kind of processes and You know, you don't depend on any provider in particular to run your services So this is actually an organizational issue, which is pretty complex

But this is what I think digitalization is about Thank you This really fits well, I think Because I just think that smart cities the whole approach is very business driven up to now

and if we have more democratic standards, I think that is really crucial and Is there a sort of best practice list we could exchange between? Barcelona and Berlin because I think that would be really nice to have To push the criteria for public good for public interest and talking about data ownership

I think we really should talk much more not only about public data by government and and what is have I don't administration But also about data traffic data data of nature and so on so on so that we do not

Privatize all these data but have a new approach of how to share this data and how to govern this data In a whole I think it's extremely interesting to to have a new approach of smart cities that enable citizens to

Use the tools of the digital tools. For example in Berlin. We just had Our data protection officer said well Teachers are not allowed to use whatsapp, but what is the other tool we use, you know, so so It's great to say this is against the law, but it would be better to have good tools

So if we have an exchange on this and say here is a good practice. Here are good tools Here is a good strategy for open innovation open standards for the government administration as well as other Institutions which are relevant in respect to public interest

I think this is so important about the smart city approach. Thank you Well, what what what what what we can say due to I'm currently a sponge and learning learn learning a lot We have met before and we agreed on sit down afterwards to exchange such lists Yeah, and I mean just to add on that I think

This best practice is not just you know as exchanging I mean, of course, we are planning to have this exchange but I think that certain practice leads to much more of the creation of this capacity for collaboration for instance now that we are Shifting to open source and we're starting to create a capacity in government

We also start publishing the the code on github and you know Communities like this one to contribute because I'm a big believer that you cannot do this kind of participatory agenda if you don't have this kind of people here with the technical capacity and the Innovation ideas to work with us. So we need to have the right infrastructure and the right tools for collaboration out there

Because so we can yes, of course target the citizen needs and work for citizens to address main problems and challenges But also, you know get the involvement of the community that you need in order to develop these tools because some of these tools are available

Some of these tools have to be built, you know, and so you need you need this talent coming together and work with the city To make this happen. And so I mean to be very aware of where I'm now working which is city government Sometimes it's the problem is in the city government, you know, not always but you know

It's like we don't have also the processes for being very collaborative in this way because it's it's a kind of a close Structure when it comes to collaboration So we need to experiment on the framework that made this collaboration Possible because we do really need to work as a community to build these tools that are needed

The woman there. Yeah, we had quite a lot of men asking questions already You will get your The lady from Barcelona, thank you for your

Presentation and I Wanted to ask you what do you do if you or how do you stimulate? Existing governments or our city councils to exceed, you know actively change and look outside for resources because you just

Explained for example, the technology is actually driving and policies these days for example, but they force us to rethink and How we work and how do you stimulate? existing government councils and so on and

to actively actively now change How you have been working in the past and actively look outside for? Contribution in your in your city because I think that is really there so much behind You know, they are driven by technology, but they haven't actually changed it and have not actively actively done something to actually

Not all cities but a lot of cities because their government departments and they're very No, not very flexible. So say to say to say the least And you I mean you are inside of these apparently you make these policies How do you stimulate your own government departments change? Yeah, I think this is really critical

I think I mean you cannot do it without the public workers And so we are really I mean a part of that kind of Digitalization strategy is really focused on getting the public workers on board and I always talk about We want to achieve I mean we have a grand vision yes, because we want this democratic city

We want to get there where we change the relationship of power and all of this, but actually what we are really Irreversible changes which means you know that you introduce small changes So they won't look like this kind of big vision

But they're practical and they're small and very hard to undo So I think this is what we are all working on that it's not easy to do these things in government because you're not prepared I think this is part of the democratic deficit that we have anyways, you know, I think when you ask me What do you do to stimulate the government? I mean what citizens do to stimulate the government

This is the question because you know, it will never change by itself because you know You have to have a pressure to change things and this pressure has to come From you know from from from the citizens, I do really think that and then once you are inside, of course You you start with this

question of culture Understanding the organizational problems never only with the technology because that's I think what we both are saying the technology is never the most important thing is always the organizational processes the culture the mindset the Capabilities and then you know the will of course the will the will has to be there and that's political

But but you this is this is nice what you say, but the technology is pushing Certain areas for example taxi drivers or creative people and they already suffer from the changes So they actually, you know in the government departments

They don't recognize that yet in the in the way they work and operate, you know And therefore the technology is actually pushing the change Absolutely, but I think what we're saying is it is a problem where you have a technology driven Disruption that doesn't really match what what what people need so you can have you know, really interesting

Technologies which are used by uber or B&B which is about platforms and now they operate and now you can use data but of course if you only use this to maximize the return of the company and then you don't take care of Labor standards you don't take care of what happens to the citizens. You don't take care, you know

This is not an innovation which is sustainable in time and that's why lots of people are pushing back So I think it's about understanding technology and understanding how you can use it to enhance the public good And this is all this conversation that we're having here And I mean already that we are talking about this and the conversation I can tell you is happening with many other cities

Maybe a question is why it is happening first with citizen with government because I can see that sometimes The cities are the most dynamic one that are taking on lots of tasks and initiatives About what government don't do and this is also through a minute with Barcelona. We've seen this recently migration policy

I mean the government has a terrible migration policy and we've been standing forward You know to say welcoming to the migrants and to give buildings of the city and to make you know Sure, that solidarity was there. We're doing that in providing basic services that the government doesn't provide anymore

I mean we are dealing with real needs and real services that people need and that's why I think there is a dynamism in cities That should be exploited and the technological conversation should be right at the core and some and most many times is not there And maybe maybe maybe to add this I I would just I would disagree that this debate is not going on

These issues are discussed and the pressure and and I would agree on this especially on cities is high We are we are growing. There's a there's under the microscope many many things on mobility on housing where we have to find an answer and how to how to how to how to how to play this into the

administration means to have it have a stand on this and to have a clear answer on which in which way you want certain Things because this is how I experience. I'm new in the administrative world I'm I'm learning now how to deal with with with the administration and it helps and To have a clear answer on certain things if you if you say I want to have things on a collaborative way

I'm I'm I want to have I want to have projects Implemented in a way that that we discuss about this and you can lift this and it's it is possible to change Administrations as well and to foster this or or to and to push certain certain certain debates Yeah, but it's a slow to change a culture and to change

Certain established process is a it's a very long way I think one more question because that wasn't The right last words, right? It's a long way. No. Okay. So let's have one more question from here and then

Thank you very much Not to be anonymous, my name is Norbert strides smart future initiative from Frankfurt and I would like to question the whole notion of Smartness and I think we should not have smartness as a goal, but we should have like a humane sociable cooperative city

For the citizens and so I think we should go away with the term smart city, and that's also the talk of The title of my talk I giving tomorrow at 1 45 on stage 5 Beyond smart cities towards humane sociable and cooperative cities

And I like to introduce one issue here, which hasn't been raised and I'm a pretty surprised here Because when you have a smart service being offered to the citizens There's always a trade-off between the type of data you're providing as a citizen and the type of smartness you get

And so I think we have to introduce much more the term privacy here, which I haven't heard from you You just talked about take data protection but data protection is something different as privacy because privacy is Where you decide what kind of data you're providing and so I'm wondering what especially like Berlin

if you have any plans to make privacy by design as part of citizen-centered design a goal for your Efforts and it could be also a USP for Berlin then or other cities also in Europe to say the services We are providing in our quote-unquote smart cities our privacy by design services. What do you think about this?

It can't be a USP if Frankfurt Frankfurt is already is already doing this and What we what we are going to do in a first step is actually to define open data First of all where we where we where we I agree sometimes we are talking about about privacy there

But actually to to answer the question first How how to move forward with with with with data in this in this in this city? Generally, it might be it might be that privacy is there is there an issue too? Can tell you now

Little bit disappointing, right? I mean I have like actually something a bit I think for me what you just as big controversial. I mean this would open a totally different conversation I think we have no time because I do think I mean of course privacy and security by design Should be embedded in the infrastructure in the way you design technology I agree, and this is also part of the protection regulation

I also think that the notion of privacy itself Should be expanded to understand the type of debate that we're having here because it's the individualistic notion of privacy Unfortunately Doesn't I mean doesn't enable us to limit some of the power for instance of the predatory platform that

Operate, you know today and this is because all this question of Collective rights, you know, and that's why sometimes data protection work better because there is the fundamental rights Approach which is there is because it recognized also some kind of collective rights that enable us to

Think about the democratization of the economy as well Which is part of the conversation that we never have because you know The risk is that we talk about privacy and security which will be offered as a service by the same corporations They're creating the problems that we need to To fight so, you know by itself. It doesn't it's not enough to prevent that we having this

superpower of the predatory Data driven platforms and we are seeing it now operating where the market will just give a Privacy and security solution if you're rich enough to afford it while we think it should be

Fundamental right and then we have to understand some new collective rights that are there around data And so also rethink the ownership of it for instance in Barcelona. We talk about data as a common I think the issue here. I think we're done with the time I'm sorry, but we're not done with the discussion. Of course only this panel

And and we will and I think it has just only begun especially in Berlin and if you're interested in Pushing this discussion a bit more if you're interested in this whole debate Please look up the new draft transparency law that the open knowledge foundation has published today

Which goes way beyond the scope of open data But actually open processes as well and central documents that have to be published by the city Look it up at open knowledge foundation or Berlin dots Transparent's gazettes dot ste and I want to thank very much our two discussants Francesca and

Christian for coming here and talking. Thank you