The Grammar of Money in Social Change


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The Grammar of Money in Social Change
What's broken and how we might fix it
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Kang, Mike
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Money is a language of power. It translates between forms of value and transforms power into outcomes. The "grammar" of money determines how people can express their values and use their power. It can thus either enable or prevent change. This session explores the current "grammar" of money in social change, particularly where powerful interests currently prevent systemic change, and evolve new ways to "speak the language of money"- including leveraging innovation in digital society.
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and top and if you don't take him he was like and
the types of that would object to if yeah so well thank you
for the introduction like Stephanie said my name is mike and I'll explain what I mean by money as a language
that later on it will hopefully make sense and if if it doesn't then we can try that try to elaborate on puzzled visible and dishonest alternation other than the amount of and the flood of college students orders of the canvas open sophisticated so I I'll try I want include the German speakers here but it's much easier for me if we speak in english so sorry so yeah the grammar of money
in a social change so I run a company called evolve on purpose and what I do is I help people organizations who are committed to solving a systemic problem so
addressing complex systemic challenges but find strategies to do so so users don't have any answers for them but I bring them to processes through coaching of writing strategic facilitation to help people who are tackling these really tough challenges of figure out how to find the rungs on the ladder
to to make progress so I work on a lot of different issues from rural water in Africa to have in designing a process to help cyclists and drivers are build more trusting relationships in Canada so lots of different things and for how many years I've been obsessed with the question of money and how do you bring money into systemic change so systemic challenges that have their
roots in power structures the assumptions that we make the the systems that we have set up about how we interact and who has power all of this type of stuff but it's very hard to address these types of issues you often need to do a lot of experimentation you don't necessarily know where you're going when you start if you're trying to convene
a project around this type of issue and the question of who pays for systemic change is 1 that keeps coming up again and again everyone I work with has always asking this question so whose job is it to save the oceans that those organizations that try to do that but whose whose wallet pays for it it's a it's a big challenge so when you're looking at something very complex for example addressing addiction in Canada's indigenous communities also very
complex you need to experiment you to explore you to build relationships to really address it in a robust way who pays for that but there's some money for it but in the grand scheme of things if you look at how big these challenges are and how many how many there are whose
job is to pay is the question that I've been carrying around for years and at some point last year I met someone
who was also asking this question and there many people asking this question but this fellow search Ferrando was asking it in a similar way to to what I was doing and he was trying to figure out how to actually innovate on this problem so Serratula had a
background in finance and he switched his career into of becoming a social change activist and he helped organize the occupy movement of so he made a pretty big change and he and I were working on a prototype ideas said in Vancouver for a new financial instrument that would basically allow early-stage experimental social change ventures to enter a cooperative have the funded as a collective and have that money allocation governed by the co-op as opposed to by the donors is so instead of competing over the same resources they would come together and have a cooperative governing model for the resources that that I didn't get very far because unfortunately suppression worry
passed away which was a bit of a shock he was a friend of mine and I decided that because this is a question of interest to me and it's in the interests all my clients and collaborators I would keep going with the research engagement work that we started even though the book our our project is not going to go anywhere anymore
because we lost a rash so I've been speaking to lots of people about this issue people in my network my clients so a a lot of research on this question of how to bring money into
systemic change and I have learned some things which I will share and I have a whole bunch of things that I don't know which also share so hopefully we can we can learn something more together so so Russian I were
both very passionate about pie charts so I decided to include 3 pie charts here and the first 1
talks about the capital that we have in the world for doing things and what's priorities are so the spider contains no real numbers is
just to make a point the basically to look at all the capital that gets invested in initiatives in ventures the most of it is motivated by it prioritizes the financial return a minority of it broke has a social
or environmental change return and then you have things that are mixed so social enterprise investing a lot of things the government does so there's a lot of money out there most of it is mostly interested in in
financial return so that's that's the 1st thing the 2nd thing that I want to 2nd propositional make is
that of the challenges that we face I that that humanity faces the social environment the challenges most of them are complex and systemic and a minority of them are not complex and not systemic the so things like climate change water stress uh inequality
the challenges faced by displaced peoples in conflict zones and at the end of the end in disaster zones on sustainable food systems that a kind of German journalism in the post fact you know Donald Trump world we have now these are all
issues that have isolated causes and connected causes there there are many different ways of making sense of the issue even though all of us are probably on pretty close on the political spectrum we would probably disagree about what the decline of
journalism for example so these are very complex issues and there about systemic structures and I would say that most of the issues that the people that I work with concern themselves with so things like poverty and inequality are complex and systemic and a small number of them are are simple Our work orders complicated in so as the character of our
challenges and then we can look at the the character of the resources that we currently have to adjust those challenge and most of those resources our focus on funding answers so most of the
resources that we have to invest in social environmental problems and I say this is a very general terms but this is different every context but I think it is a general truth as well
most of it was designed systems that were there to find answers so you have a challenge Europe community is is hungry give them food or teach them to farm people are poor teach them entrepreneurship skills of your community has an addiction problem is set up a treatment center most of our our institutions of money were designed to find answers a small number of a small amount of this resources is
designed to find questions so instead of saying I will set up a treatment center because my community suffers from addiction the question would be how can I relieve my community from predictions about so most of the resources that we have is based on finding answers and for and for the the the small amount that is based on funding questions on a lot of it is
academic so if you did do research on the question how could you would that address addiction in a in a community there will probably be resources for the academic side of that but if you want to learn by
doing and actually experiment and learn in that context about how to do that is minimal resources for that so this is the general ideas I have about about money
and I'll get to the language than in a minute so when I talk about a challenge being
complex what exactly do I mean by that well I'm borrowing some language from a friend the collaborative my name's i.e. a son who basically
identifies complex challenges having 3 properties the 1st is that is emergent the properties of the challenge the shape and structure how it behaves arise from the interactions of many different parts and that causes it to be unpredictable and have unclear causality so you don't know for example going back to the diction example you don't know at the beginning that what you
do you will have a certain effect if you know the treatment center had a certain effect in 1 community you don't necessarily know that will have the same effect in a different community because of the
emergent properties of different different people different contexts different time the other property is that the dynamic they're constantly changing and the shape of the challenge is always transforming and new information is constantly being produced about about the challenge and the 3rd
property is that the adapted to the people who experience these challenges are always changing their behavior based on new information everyone is involved with is constantly changing the behavior and creates a feedback loop because but the adaptive behavior
changes how people behave but which then creates new emergent properties which then again but again the the dynamism so this is the cycle of complexity they basically it so the consequence of of this
but if you believe this thinking about about what complex challenges look like is that every situation is essentially new just because you know something about how I would dress addiction in this community doesn't necessarily mean you know very much about how to address it this different community or even at different points in time
what might have worked 5 years ago might not work anymore because everything is always changing so this is sort of a radical proposition from and this is overstating it I think it's not that everything is always knew where you know there are things that that we know that
state true forever but but I think my my bias is sort of to say that every time you have a new social environment to challenge you almost have to start from scratch and try and terms of thinking about how to solve it because it's every context so different for every other context yeah but so the proposition that
and the reason that the the funding questions versus senses things matters is because since every situation is essentially new strategies to address complex and systemic challenges have to be oriented around questions so if you want to address addiction the community you need to come in
asking the question how do I address addictions community not giving the answer and a builder treatments the
questions is also have to be answered through experimentation so you don't necessarily know through academic research what will work in the community you will learn something about that but the most robust way to do it is through experiments and people in the private sector of known this for a long time right that's why venture capitalists expect that 90 per cent of what they invest in will fail so the people in the social sector to be held to a different standard if you're doing something for
addressing addiction community you better get it right the 1st time otherwise and I can get funding next time but if you're out of a private venture that's a different story but you have to experiment and his experiments have to be conducted with the people who experience the challenge so not just a group of experts talk about addiction this community but the committee members themselves participating in that are in
that experimentation so you we need to orient our strategies for for addressing
complex challenges around questions but most of all resources are focused on funding prepackaged answers implemented by others that's that's what most of our funding institutions were designed to do yeah but and this has started to change the way that we talk about about social challenges is indeed changing so that most people in this room
probably know about the rapid rise in the last things that call themselves labs may collapse FabLab social let's change labs there are thousands of them now around the world were is there were a
handful of them but only 10 years ago and I calls this the social as revolution but there's lots of different names for it and a lot of these labs all our of basically just using the word lab because both were allowed to use trendy and it's fashionable but there's also some really wonderful work being
done where people or Ted tried to tackle the challenges to a questions focused process from but my concern basically and kind of that the topic that I'm that I'm focused on here is that even the the water language starting to move towards this complexity focused world we talk about experimentation and emergence and a collective action and that a stakeholder issues this sort of stuff or systems of
money are lagging behind so we so we we use the word Lavena's lots of things the father's labs even the really great labs that are out there that really all our focused on questions don't have term funding they don't they often don't know what the sustainable business models are going to be if 1 exists we have this systemic challenge I think around money where our systems of giving basically are as systems of investing in social and environmental challenges have not gone through a revolution even
if our thinking about what how those challenges need to be solved is starting to go through that revolution so this this sort of lag is the the challenge them focused on here and this is where the idea of money as a
language hopefully becomes useful so 1 of the things that i've i've of come to realize in in my work with different planes working on complex issues is
that some is that language money is a language that is spoken between people so money in language have a lot of things in common the both arbitrary social constructs so this what is this a remote you what
was called a remote this thing is only call the remote because you and I both agree year that's what it's called but and this was this 2 euros only has value because we all agreed that it has value it's an arbitrary social construct
on the way that we use money and the way we use language both coevolve with our values as well so it's it's it was a time when it was OK to use racial slurs or to to use and demeaning terms to talk about homosexuals but values
change people change our language changes as well the way that we can talk about certain things so what we consider acceptable changes money also called also the values so things like whether it's acceptable for a nonprofit organization to drop profit of whether charitable donations are tax deductible and these types of things also change the we think bribery is OK and whether we
think campaign contributions in elections should have limits or whether they should be
unlimited the rules that we assign to money change with the value it's just the way that do the same with the rules that we assign to our language and the values and finally
the 3rd thing they have in common is that of the way that we use money influences the relationships in the same way that the way we use language does so I could speak to you very rudely or very abruptly or very arrogantly and you and I would have a different relationship than if I spoke to you with warmth and love and caring on on the money side I could choose to tap like it used to over
my clients I could choose to underreport my income and to the government there's this choices that I make that that I know about our spend money have this in common with them with the choices that we make a well around language and the
reason that I think this is a useful way of looking at money is that we can start to then learn from social movements who have
focused on language in learning about how we have to change our systems of money so social movements like the LGBT QAI movement of black lives matter even the tea party which is a social movement but in a direction that I don't agree with but it is a social movement and how it's structured all of these things focus a
lot of energy on changing how we talk about issues of good example from the the right of access to the conservative end of the spectrum is how I used to be be called United States tax reduction and household tax relief and even the Democrats in the states use these words tax relief
and when you call a tax relief your implying that there is a burden that needs to be relieved of that taxation is something that happens to you that is bad and that becomes part of our our psyche right with the way that we speak about things come becomes part of how we see the world social movements understand this which is why for example and at the transgender rights movement focuses on pronouns but do I say he or she or can I see there and they have them and in in English-speaking countries anyway this pronoun thing is quite important so social
movements know a lot about the fact that are spoken language influences our society because it shapes our systems of power and the question that I'm interested in is how is our money language of shape our systems of power how the assumptions that are made about how money should be used when it can be used for and what do we expect that we're entitled to when we spend money on something shape the systems that we have that address the challenges
that we that we face so this
might be a little confusing but I hope it
will become clear in a moment and have an initial couple of videos that will hopefully clarify some of this but I wanted everyone to do a quick reflection actually um meaning for time
all and I'd like you to think about a time that you got money you therefore of a project or from your parents from a friend or maybe investment from uh from of a grantor on investor or something like that and it may be and getting that money made you feel creative and and power I'd also like you to think
of a time when getting that money made you feel constrained and Libertad ended up and and to us to a certain behavior that you do the necessary no you wanted to to do just
curious can anyone think do you do you raise your hand if you have examples of either of those things that you can think of yeah 1 OK
well the so an example for me is when I when when I was used to be the country director of engineers love waters in Malawi and at some point the
week of my program got money from GIZ and that was uh extremely empowering because the relationship that I had with GIZ that that my team ever GIZ was 1 where they really valued the experimentation that what they were doing and the only outputs that they were expecting from us was really good learning and and your documentation about how we spend it
on but what I received money from UNICEF's in the same program it made me feel nervous because it made me feel like I I was locked in my program was locked into doing something and if we learn later on that what we want to do was actually totally different because we we got new information or things changed or want to to adapt we wouldn't be able to do that so this the kind of thing that I'm that I'm
talking about anyway um under show a couple of videos here and and then and then sort of uses examples to illustrate what the power of the speaking a different money language can can be so this first
one is from a social lab in Chicago called the growth 3 5 4 7 and this is allowed that brought together different community members in
Chicago and community foundations and the different stakeholders in the community to basically look at the question of how can we empower youth in Chicago to build resilient livelihoods and this is a variable 1 of the prototypes that emerge from that from that lab this is
sound it and then following that with the new 1 and 2 years later but people don't know what the fall all and that you to an more to this game called basketball did he learn what I'm seeing move the black people that could take time that we were not aware of the game of basketball and because coming from that reality and on the left you can do it on floor and recreational activity we played baseball 1 being return problems with our teams of this is to preserve its around we came under the premise that young people don't have a sense of history knowledge here too
that is rich in our to culture that is
rich in Brownsville things that runs builders verbs
have young people are doing these are
all stakeholders in force for a variety of bronze so rating there's versus well
initialy rethinking and something
around science technology engineering arts and or scheme but we landed in this
rapid prototyping kind notion
around the film and digital media through video and film and photography and oral storytelling and
so we thought that we can use those methods to bring all of these concepts together there's this connecting generations we do a
lot don't know and this is where you can use
the all all all it all all and then there
was 1 and then there's the set reading a
text to the business what he types to tackle some of the hottest human problems can you hear in what kind of personality that leads what they doing right
now to actually pick up something else to follow the 3rd group that we have to prove that the root of the group who had the lab if you're asking have questions that out daily actions make me line is if you're thinking about a global problems are affecting small communities you in want talk so we are what we bring people want you to get to kick-start tech projects with the social and we not some acknowledging like takes missing services that have young women in rural communities and complex with the technology like the checking it a music that that have really the idea emerged using has huge potential but facing complex social problems young people across the then tell us that they would have a cell the big issue is
the thing we ran like layers of finally collision cost based in Wellington and we're looking for 20 of the protease mornings who want to have a meaningful impact in the world and are women to work collaboratively to the world lapses is fully funded we will call and wars and accommodation . and terms in the 1st thing you find team of working with a new define change in 1 way or the last period you meet developing your ideas and
prioritized and giving them a god seeing what the feedback and then iterating the each of the land
with team Plan and whatever structure makes it so this is way you might be
carried in maybe my company then what he believed that be in charge of I take care of the the labs funded by the Ministry for Social Development brought you points form and you find the out and leaving the team
with the plan of what you want to bring up to the well
and what that ring and
the time lag stuff like that makes the heart he did the website if
so I had a 3rd example as well as show Biden for time but it was a an open innovation Hub that was convened by WWF Switzerland so and the the question that
I'm interested in the money thing is what that these have in common the 2 things you just saw like I said the 1st 1 that was not the entire nation that was only 1 protect that emerged from the broader allowed there were 4 other 4 types of those is still being being developed and there were a wide diversity of things from restorative justice to that of art and
culture and to music recording studio so that was just 1 of the prototypes so for both of the things that you saw there then a few things in common but was that
they created spaces that allowed for different types of prototypes so experiments with with many different things bound by a common purpose on the that a clear process and powerful story telling so they didn't have a specific plan at the beginning but they had a very clear process in mind about what they want to go through that was going to
lead to these things they create a space for learning through experimentation involving people experience the challenge and the most of the or in a very important thing I think was that the money language spoken between those who were funding the lab and those who were in thing it were speaking was speaking the language
of complexity it was the questions that were funded not answers so with lifehack the question that was at the beginning was something along the lines of how can we help how can we support that with the use of New Zealand to to be leaders in mental health and well being in Chicago that with the the
growth of 1 that you saw the first one and the question was even more afraid than that to begin with it was but basically what can we do with use in Chicago and then through part of the process after that was already money being spent to go through a process of design and and thinking
so it focused on but how can we say something like how can we empower used to build resilient language in Chicago something along those lines so they they started with questions and the questions were there with the funders the the people who were who were investing in these these things were when they were speaking about budgets and when they were talking about how money was going to be spent it was all very strategic and it was all the service
of answering the question through experimentation as it was not as much about exactly what the line atoms are going to be in your in your budget so the refunding questions versus finding answers so what's the difference between finding answers and funding questions while funding answers tends to avoid complexity and that is the the question is when it comes down to
money in interaction or about what's the plan what product will be delivered who will do what when and with what cost how will I be recognized and it is this nonprofit or for-profit but basically
separating uh we invest in charities forces we invest in social enterprises yeah the and they're often about investing in single projects that a well-defined with rigid budgets that don't that don't flex
I the focus on delivery of a product and the idea of overhead so funding administration and salaries net and the thing is seen as bad
funding questions instead instead of avoiding complexity it accepts comes but city as the as a natural part of the world it an even make a judgment as to whether it's good or bad it's just it just is it's like there or gravity is just part of part of life
and the questions that come up when you talk about money when you're when your focus of funding questions around was the process which division who were you how do you hope to create value and how can I help you and user tend to be focused on ecosystems of interventions
recognizing that answering a question like how we engage youth to build resilient livelihoods in in in Chicago is not going to be just about 1 thing it's gonna be about multiple experiments of the budgets are adapted you might have
an overall amount that you have agreed is going to be the cap about how much will be spent but the exact line items where the standard on all of them flip chart markers for no fuel for your motorbike or whatever of those things don't matter as much there a lot more flexibility in there focused on creating value and understand
that overhead is of a normal part of doing meaningful work so this is sort of what I mean by the language of of of money now the the doubly doubly at examples also interesting use a video on it but the open innovation lab also start with a questionnaire also engage multiple stakeholders to experiment but
but the reason that that lab was people they get funded it was not because the the WWF happen to have a great relationship with a specific donor but because ww Switzerland gets more than half its money from private donors who have very high trust with the organization so basically they say do whatever you want WWF I trust you as long as you're working on conservation and essentially that creates a source of revenue that also
speaks the language of complexity as long as that's what WWF is speaking so it's the money is there and is not as a single person defining what what its priorities are but the flexibility is there an important thing to recognize also about both these examples is that it wasn't just about the
funders saying hey here's money I wanna innovate with it it was about a two-way relationship and this is like the I think the language frame is interesting it's not just about once this not just 1 sided it's about the discussion that exists
between the leader of the change and the founder of the change in the because both of them are asking these types of questions and they're both going back and forth and having empathy with each other's perspectives so and I would say that this sort of money language that is
focused on questions rather than answers is the exception and not the norm so I basically have to about propositions about what I think needs to change and if so 1 of of the 1st revolution that we need is that we a whole lot
more money available I think for solving the systemic challenges we face but you know climate change is a is a great example the amount of money that's available currently being deployed on that is probably not enough in even the last available as of the best example but gender but generally I think as a
society we need to be more willing to spend money to solve problems that's that's the that's the 1st revolution the 2nd 1 is that we need to have more money go to funding questions that them we need more money in
our systems that are able to speak the language of funding questions rather than only finding answers so this 1st revolution is pretty hard I don't really know how you of how you change the human condition to make people more willing to invest in things that are so that are important for the whole world
not just for themselves but the the next question is what what about the 2nd revolution how can we change our systems of mind to go from funding questions to finding this funny answers to funding questions Our and water so I don't know I don't know what the what the
Revolution looks like or how to create it but I think it might have some ingredients which then in the 20 minutes we have left there we can have some discussion about what this might look like so on I mean 1 thing is that I think we need more funders investor to speak the language of complexity so not just with the
words but also with the way they spend their money and I have an example here 1 of the initiatives I've worked on called the energy circle is a i a an emergent initiatives in Canada focused on empowering Canada's indigenous leaders
to lead the renewable energy development in their own communities but right now there's a lot of renewable energy development happening in indigenous Canadian communities but most of its being owned and led by up by companies that are not indigenous uh there are some of the more oil companies a lot of them are and GeoServer large companies based in big cities that mostly have white people
honestly running around so how do you actually get this renewable energy transition were lot these depend on diesel right now up to be led by indigenous people themselves and this is a topic of great interest to a lot of people I spoke to 1 foundation about this I'm in Vancouver who is speaking the language of complexity with the words they were saying yeah we 1 experiment 1 focus on relationships we wanna learn and adapt and where you end up a year from now does not have to be we need to end up today and that's the that's the types of things that they would say but as soon as it came down to actually talking about money so you will you invest in this Everything came right back to finding answers OK well what exactly do you wanna do you have when will it happen when would the results be who will do what when so the experimental complex sort of
about values disappears as soon as the the money got involved and this is pretty common so I think we need more funders investors that are willing to to speak the language of complexity yeah I am I think the other thing is for people who were trying
to lead these types of things community organizers of people which I convened labs were who were who were aiming to to to support their communities to innovate for themselves and provide resources for them need to be explicit and show leadership to their to their funders of the potential funders and there's a few ways to do that on instead of writing proposals for specific plans for projects you can write proposals that talk about processes the people your engage
and the challenge statements so instead of saying I'm going to build a treatment center you can say I'm going to I'm going to experiment on the question how can we address addiction in our community there's also ways of innovating on accountability 1 of the big reasons why but donors and investors or so obsessed with the
specific plan is because they wanna be able to hold you accountable but there are other ways that you can be held accountable other than adhering to a specific plan you can for example talk about it and you can you can for example basically track how you pivoted and why change direction and then have agree on accountability process that makes
that very clear instead of necessarily are going to specific plan and the specific line item in the budget of and sharing
stories about change and talking about how that changed you'd you'd be experimental as opposed to plant but it is very helpful if you can provide funders with scenarios so maybe you say I'm starting this year and I don't know where I'm going to be 5 years from
now but you can maybe give 3 or 4 scenarios about where you might be just to give your your funder a potential investor in idea of the type of evolution that you envision out without constraining yourself to do just 1 thing and
then finally I I think a big part of speaking the language of of our of funding questions rather than answers comes down to the trust that you have between out the person investing and the person who's getting the money and lot of that trust is about on and devising with the study of each other's constituencies so if you come into a funding relationship and you acknowledge that your challenge challenges that you would have a
certain group of people that you think about when you think about what's important with the project and the founder has a border and they have a family at home and they have people that they're thinking about and actually acknowledge the tension there why they might have
inconsistent might might they might have different values and priorities and actually talk about that and use it as a source of creativity as opposed to just pretending that everyone's on the same page so a lot of the groups that I work with succeeded at really innovating
around questions have mobilized their own economic power of course not everyone can do this but not everyone has economic power to mobilize but I'm different groups that have the for-profit parts of what they do for example consulting for instance they can use the profits of that to invest in their own their own work in this is basically would WWF has done and in that they have economic power that they have this discretionary flexible funding from the public I take advantage of place-based bias so what I mean by this is you often find that place-based foundations select Chicago Community Trust for example I are much more willing to innovate so the government of New Zealand was also very willing to innovate because some
Mr. it's a small country and they happen to acknowledge that they that they have very specific issues and that they don't know how to address and that's easier to find people who have that type of willingness to take risks if the scope is
small so if you're working in Chicago find don't go to the federal government would look for Community Foundation in Chicago of course there aren't enough of these which is why I think we need this revolution there are enough of these place-based space foundations and sources of revenue the went to innovate in this way but where they are it's an important to take advantage of them and I don't know if part of the solution to this challenge crowdfunding is it possible to create a crowdfunding platform that is designed around funding questions in experimentation as opposed to finding answers and start some good is a interesting platform for for this potentially I don't know what what impact it will end up having this is potentially a solution but I don't really know and I'm
not Republic of so people here probably know a lot more about the blockchain than I do but I keep hearing about how the blockchain is the transform money I don't totally understand how I mean I've read all of this the literature on it but I don't really get what's actually going to happen and so maybe this solution in blockchain here maybe somehow we have money and that's what changes how it behaves in weight values but and but I don't know and we have great 15 minutes for discussion on I don't know know the answers here all I basically can tell you is what I've
experienced and what the people that I work with worry about and why their lives were difficult other the professionalized difficult so I've come here hoping to about maybe generate some learning from the group and get some discussion going hoping that with the framing that provided you'll be able to to share some
ideas about how this how this all these challenges so discussion thank you for listening fj
and I'm like can can I live and work in some African and that the question relates it to the the the rigid nature of obtaining funding from an elephant sort of obtaining of unified units of analysis is a major funder releases a call for proposals and you also too small and you're bidding for that's you really have to follow the criteria that sets set out by the proposal but even if you agree that you wanna change it and change to the nature discussion of how would you advise on making this change happen and advertising that change and then being able to successfully obtain funding and through the in a more open transparent and not so rigid process and the I mean that's the that's the real trick right the on the so this is kind of what I mean when I say that most of our funding institutions are designed around funding
answers relevant questions like that very rigid structure is designed to minimize risk and to maximize true pre-defined knowledge about what what will happen right and what the risks are on so I think it's that's really the challenge of it I think it is that the fact that you got this very rigid budget that says do this and that and that and this is exactly what I mean when we need to change our language of money basically I think that you know that call from posals needs to look different that's the world that I want however does not the world that we have on and it would be good but the sum of the clients I work with have just had the challenge of 1 of the things that we found is you can do is kind of trick the system into working for you by but basically being very tactical about where your specific and where you're very so you can be very specific about certain things in the proposal for example about an I about things you can be specific about what you're going what your core
team is about what the 1st thing is that you're going to do with them when they ask for your what's your plan you can actually put in the plant section a process and a series of engagements that you're going to do with people and then vats the plan even those not a plan as a process but you've called a processor plan just to fit their language so speaking a language that they want and and hoping that you get a good Grand Officer of but I I don't think it's possible to have to solve that problem completely unless the the character of the funding in the values and form the funding change I have ever it from the Philippines all move pages I have a question later on because at context like this unusually this source of finance can either be then that store which are interested in it turns out by the donor is the development donors may be more interested in results so either way I think this is no i think on in that respect this actually is the root of this thing lady and find the answer is C. so as he mentioned when and can here is that usually people et al and those that are looking for funding for questions are of data in their language to fit this language have you have a hat ever had on concrete experience of the other way around of these investors actually being recruited into funding actively recruited into funding more questions like practical examples they may not necessarily be there yet but are there any like button groups of people or initial steps that are actively seeking to change the investors mine yeah so there is a there are things that have to to to get back to you on the specifics but I
have come across things like this and so there mean but the thing is there are there again there are exceptions so this is a so cap group of social capital are a group is convening a lab around this very question actually or this is more like a series of workshops on around basically how we make own social informed investing the norm rather than the exception are in the global financial markets but so they're trying to change and that is it's it's still going to be mostly about finding answers so it's it's really it's really more about the 1st revolution the 1 about the amount of money that goes into social things rather than the type of money on with any that basically foundations themselves they're reading on it so the computer Chicago Community Trust actually had very interesting sort of mission statement where they say on we are in our we we aim to provide that the consistency of of service that is expected also having the boldness and courage to innovate given the times we live in or something like that so basically they're very much interested in finding questions and they're already doing that even before the growth thing came along on and and they sort of set an example for other foundations the on as but as far as I know is there any initiative that's out there trying to basically shift social investing from finding answers to funding questions on add a greater proportion of questions I don't think so that's part of why Russian I were working on it because eventually we're hoping to convene a larger scale effort around that that idea but if there is anyone knows about it please tell me because I would love to know those people other thoughts doesn't doesn't necessarily just used to be questions for me either like
comments reflections from anything that you've got on your mind I would love to to hear that is yeah I think a share because I went with communities in that flavor of the river and the Amazon region so when I apply for funding when I do not know what the needs are usually it's it they need what are you doing so I had have to give up all the this structures so usually I do the things that brought the types of things that that the grants is asking here but at the end I save some money because I have to do all the research of what's happening behind break what are the needs because of the influence of the companies in in this region is is huge and the cultures that is has been lasts from so and I agree I think it's funny it's too difficult to see where to find ways but also that is that spiral that is from New Zealand and they do this work where they have a budget that is 1st social good so the all the money profit that they received from this competitive they put in a fund and then decide where to go the mining that says it's growing and and I appreciate now yeah the and but hello my question is how do you show that the impact of the value the benefits such initiatives generate the benefits which obviously go beyond the financial are there any models for this like what is for measuring the impact of such activity yeah yeah there are lots actually there's a lot of a lot of
work on on that being done on evaluating complex interventions basically and so there's the the at the 5 capitals framework is 1 that was used in Chicago actually in this is integrated reporting and have uh model I wish I had report I could show you on but basically they said OK where where the results are defined in terms of 5 different types
of capital financial capital human capital natural capital social capital and physical capital a yes yes so those are those of the 5 and that of course not creating any natural capital because you not you know making new for a certain recurring financial capital you social capital is recruiting new relationships that new trust New capacity um or human capital capacity in the system so basically you can so uh there I think a big driving force behind this is the need to produce things the numbers people love numbers they wanna know how many how much and I don't know you know if there's any way beyond that in the human mind I think
stories help but at the end the day you still wanna know how much like was this story happened once or 10 thousand times the you still wanna know right so the capital's framework helps you do that's what they did with Roman Chicago was basically just come up with a general points system where they said OK if 2 people participated in a workshop on we're going to give that interaction 10 points if they could put collaborated on a prototype will give that interaction 100 points and they of course the points you know with what they mean right but they tried to find a way of kind of bridging this gap between this very emergent space in this very rigid 1 on and I think a pretty good job it helps to they had a great relationship with the funder who is willing to think outside the box kind of of but there's also tons of other work on this idea of a but I can give you my card I could share some resources with you is old field of people trying to figure out this this question and
you the I so my question was when someone is trying to receive funding how can the fund there the big between several candidates me you said the beginning that's uh for complex problems each time usage we have to start from scratch so it's unnecessary possible to extrapolates from past experience of from the candidate so was what you were talking about earlier no could that help in this respect or do we need to do some research to figure out the there are particular characteristics of the organization that would make it more capable to override the takin systemic problems that's a very good question I because reminds me of the of the reason why the the Gr ee uh like the standardized testing for entrance into the American universities is always there because you know everyone knows this of these tesseract really stupid and they don't tell you anything about how smart the person is we still use them because they need something like they need something to compare people against right so I yeah that's a really good question I mean I think have opinion about that I think there are characteristics you can identify around how well network your
organization is what kind of a track record has of having an innovative your your change directions that kind of stuff but I think there is that that would be a good topic for research and development actually is like what you know if they're certain criteria that are being used right now that funders used to decide whether you're worthy of whether this is a good investment water the what are the different ones so water what are the new ones that we know that we need and there's going to be things about yet capacity to have to change and the networks and teams and leadership and that kind of stuff but actually defining that clearly would be helpful they they also and
and it but it so I just wanted to make them a remark on this because the discussion on the simplex method to how artists work actually because very often it's always about the the forces of the work and about suppose coming up with something new war against that you have to try to convince someone else give you funding to try to make something new and how does that come along and I'm I suppose I mean I could also give the example of like the Picasso who and those who ask them to do a portrait of of them and for I think it was 3 months so this be working on it and it turns out that he actually did work on it and in on the day when the time came in the set down and then he did the quantity did that for the amount of the so maybe there might be some correlation between the solvent might be interesting to see where those might I not say the right thing but that's a bit of a story to tell by the way if you're sitting down to find the indirect all that we got a focus on questions and answers the answers will come we have to start with the question of and all of the castle story and
then the money will flow ensures that this might thank you for sharing while a broad
and yet deep topic they're interesting things you I think he was share
clients and everyone was questions with finite here outside will have a 15 minute break and then we keep on going that you're everybody about
on crime I'm willing


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