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Digital Music Infrastructures (Music Pool Berlin Community Evening)

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the arch and of the and here he and if you
go to the thank you I
hello everyone do that I welcomed the panellists 5th in Wednesday's I don't wanna be alone the yeah and that yeah OK the the the ground OK gets getting organized here and um . digital music infrastructures is the topic of
this conversation that I look forward to have great a group of people here on the panel and so yeah I I would like to go over the next hour um look with you into that digital environments the platforms and the facilities that we use as participants in music culture and so on In the description to this uh we wrote that you by infrastructure so we understand the very broad set of arrangements atom and I look forward to hearing what you understand exactly by the by infrastructures are how how you view um this so of for for me it could be the design of an interface to they overall business model of a platform that then shapes and how the services are delivered that's we're using for example and I think and what 1 thing that is so important to notes maybe is that to uh we um we're probably looking through and like independent cultural lens because we are all and the artists of culture producers who are may be working more with kind of underground so culture and society and so yeah over the next hour let's talk about how to do digital music infrastructures shape our practice what do we think about the status quo are the structure supportive to our own our maybe different visions of music culture and then I am also I'm interested to hear all in about all you're at a different initiatives that's you're you're involved with that we also spend some time talking about and serum I briefly introduced uh all of his so um you don't have to so your bios every time so we have in the middle Daniel scientists um into his cultural manager and curator and cofounder of the cream cake platform and label and serum the I think you work with a lots of artists who operates at outside of traditional music industry
structures also lots of young people and I've discovered lots of great artists through you work so that's great and then uh just right next to me over left his peter current and the users cements and creative technologist co-producer of the the of open-source synthesizer and
publisher of create digital music and you side with a focus on music technologies so how the news and you use a news site and old news on your side the 2nd element so yeah so you
think and write about so digital technologies in connection to music in almost every day so as mn and then on the very left uh maps drivers to uh is an artist's
um and it's you release music research and operates you collaborate with their Holly Herndon allied with the upon neighbor you're lecture and
NYU and say you'd developed saga a project that i'm gonna ask you more about later and you are an adviser to the Streaming Service resonates that we facts of those if you have year earlier that we thought about a little bit about that already today M. yeah welcome the Hey M and um yeah as an introduction i would like to hear from you on but not all of you when when I invited you to the panel
on a few respondents quite interested and enthusiastically about the topic saying 0 yeah this is really a good time like an important topic and I would like to know why why did you say
that do you what do we have for all microphones no here we have a lot of to to that I yeah I mean that this is funny because when you ask me and I wouldn't but I
think about music and to digital infrastructures we just founded the festival in Tokyo which is caught in fraud and so it is playing with this but this obvious idea of how you provide infrastructure for people who don't actually use the con the actual infrastructure who was traditionally based and so for us it is always this question of how we do things in general and how you do things you gonna establish own infrastructure so how do you operate your business how do you could write a program on how how do you and how do you support your artists and who is benefiting from this and so the screen cable 3 she is or was another project we do and and from now it's like a totally different um see which hasn't been on the main spotlight for years and we create this platform for them and to support them and establish for them of of sort of structure and the possibility
to perform and OK and but yeah so know on that are beyond that of a given feature trimming a deal with a lot of work and I think what is built is kind of like a
perfect case study in a way for a new form of independence and so when I think about infrastructure musically of Guinea of shared forever really cared about has been the independent musical infrastructure alone and 1 of the things I think is quite disappointing or urgent at this point is the need to kind of redefine what we understand to be independent in an era of platform capitalism in this era where you can listen to a punk record on the same pages every on record and the most people are experiencing these things in those ways and and of course there are independent initiatives happening but generally they tend to be yeah not necessarily in the same form that 1 would understand and music to be uh classically and so I think think it's like a really good example of that and yet so that's really the question for is like what is and what is being independent today mean beyond the kitsch of independence there were often sold in there
has also been subsumed into into you just general commercial discourse right so the mom or my my misery object as a story a lot of interesting ideas but I I mean I I guess I guess some it was to
follow up on on what but that's suggesting I think that's probably not cleared dividing point between independent and whatever non-independent artist a and I'm happy to be a non independent artists of someone's give me a big EDM field for of some sort of a but I I mean I think down they get the given as you talk to artists uh you who you with have traditionally thought of as kind of from commercially successful or a major labels of things that a lot of the things that they say a er are quite similar to things you hear from very independent very underground artists everybody's kind of contending with the same the calls for
communication and and I mean I I'm kind of interested by the thing that a lot of those a lot of people to is a problem right so people come from this kind of traditional industry model I think because it is based on this very particular form of scarcity and maybe a very particular form of control and and control distribution tendency the uh um this this growth in production of the growth in the number of people making music and
the the ease of kind of using technology to play music and they see is somehow a problem but me being biased and having always kind of made most of my
living off that the production side of things not just listening in distribution and I always come sort something as something positive but it seems like this the structures that we have for community for communication somehow don't match up with that reality so the reality people producing more diverse and kind of more music doesn't match up with an Internet distribution and communication methods there that the themselves becoming more scarce everything from media to harm to the mechanism mechanisms for kind of discovery and it thank you OK so I am that that's for for the start of my thing and like to go deeper into that you're different perspectives and over the course of the conversation I think before we go deeper into discussing the actual applications um I'd be interested also for to get everybody on the same page to quickly look at what do we understand by infrastructures
what our what are we actually talking about and I think like you you age from your perspectives imagine you're like on the lookout point overlooking like a city or something so this being you're infrastructures you work with like what what are the the building blocks that you see there
and what's maybe what are the things that you find that you like and what are the things you don't like when you look out the window the I dictate what stats and annular maybe from from your perspective maybe else of working with the kind of producers you work with and any I think infrastructure is definitely you can think about what how can you bring something from a to B. it is that the the
really like the traffic things so how how would you uh and started having like a very talented and emerging artist who was putting the sounds online on SoundCloud how would you give him a chance to and give to spread his music and find an audience and get get paid and make them and have a good experience and actually approach different types types of experiences solution to the Korea and so I think in in terms of that event we do event so when we create our music program and we just invite people who are just uploaded songs it doesn't matter if they are alleged usually they have a following fan base or whatever just invite them and they're really happy that they they would never think about that they can come to that in and clear show and so that sake the what like the 1st step of creating like this think very simple it's just 1 e-mail you know it takes me 5 minutes I'm hearing distract communion otherwise it while he's go to this around this this
2nd out of the director the esthetics tool to to this scene also in and while just and invite this person and and and then over time when you do promotion and when you are they building you events and
then you'd be talked to the artists and we we give them make more knowledge about glycolysis this work and and it all comes to make the the learning of of from step 1 to to a two-step B and then when we do the label it's the same as like an artist he put out some some stuff on some just asking him if she she wants to put out something with us and then it's always like very transparent and very fair um communication because I haven't done a tool you know so I'm I'm looking for some some music contracts from my friends and going through them my classic ones are still from independent music scene but then and in and out this is too much is too much so I'm mn of may making it down to the really is essential points for an you contract with the label you could provide and than having a scrap meeting with artists and then we go through each point and then it starts being open and fair from from scratch you know and
that's that's that's part of it you know and it and many a year from a lot of friends that they just got a contract per e-mail and ended in 1 assignment of it is no way to avoid this paragraph means or wise a 10 pages long and then they decided that the record sticks to came out and so this contractors do bonding for some reason you know so it didn't really help that that the cost of not signing and so we don't the beaches don't work like that in this very traditional way of think how this classic industries but what I really like is adapting it to like radio thing you know in learning at and then I'm saying the I can
do this by my own it doesn't really matter of having this this huge old-school structure and um just just adapted in a very professional way in and so from this here like what what you mentioned you you used just to build the kind of building blocks you have some clout you finally say the 1st point of that emerging for someone and then you have like that the label your label with a contract with terms of collaboration and this you mentioned festivals also not you mentioned that where you want it plays the artist something I mean area where the Dodgers would be playing just as a way
to look at what infrastructure make comprises the root it has since the date had the only give you 1 builds on link that that young and intuitive researchers quite easy right it's like how do you get this thing to people right and there's 2 lines of that in the 1 sense I had you get its people's years remotely and then there's had you get people in space which is not something that's
becoming increasingly difficult and expensive cities and so the 2 parallel things the latter 1 happens to represent this point time the closest thing to income that most musicians have them and principally from Iran's these issues if researchers saying what him it's kind of agency is 1 feel within the structures right so you bring up thank like for example Sakai provides a service it does a few things really really well the LIG to do only a few things and with that right and so these infrastructures where you have messiah of like the old distribution industry which in many cases was very limited you that passing physical things around
them it infrastructureless you to me to say why is it now that our level of engagement with this media when we receive it is actually
somehow less than it what's what you have fewer options to tailor or customize someone's experience of this music that that infrastructural right that's a design decision that's be made by an increasingly uh smaller and smaller pool of designers with these monopoly platforms are similar this what
used to be somewhat I mean can very much connected but somewhat disparate some live and recorded or distribution music infrastructure you start to see these 2 things blend into each other even more so that right where there are a few places for people to play right cities are getting more expensive so these kind of areas of congregation that 1 used to going to a place like London or New York or whatever that to make often to develop a culture on the ground that is becoming
increasingly difficult for people who don't have ended and the money on and so in order to participate within the light music in infrastructure here if you have a band where you going to rehearse so who gets to rehearse enough to be in a position to be supported by the festival networks which are now increasingly influenced more and more by the design decisions of the
distribution problems right so if you end up being honest Spotify playlist which I might
add requires a certain kind of music certain kinds of music thrive in players cultures were other kinds of music certainly don't thrive you have a better chance to participate in the light music structure right so these kind of
questions for me at a really pivotal because no right toward the world's uh playing music I'm very fortunate with my partner holy them and we go to these vessels it's very interesting to see over time and the like I get like DJ low overheads no 1 can rehearsed and it's that that that the joke for me is unit DJ culture is kind of like the ultimate compliment to the Silicon Valley Valley ideology that you make profit by curating the work of others you know and I know the Dakota Wesley has a wonderful venerated
history that the time interesting to be like all this works really well because it's seamlessly flows in the playlist it seamlessly flows and you see that is performing artist on stage the seamless transition from 1
artist to the next like you you move your record I another person bring their record bag where this kind seamless user experience of the festival environment and works in terms of generating money um and works for a certain agenda but the question is in the case of cream cake or just uses example could you hear them you waste to
sneak out what are the affordances of the infrastructure that time from an overtime wife year I see down the line is what comes to represent a monoculture culture and that has all the trappings all of but the abandon of yesteryear so we get to pretend that were raving and all this wonderful history as I will this stuff happened because people had space and the stuff happen because people had control over their own infrastructures which increasingly even within their communities of is a conversation of people put down this their old fashion in so what I'd like to know actually and I think we should reserve the right to be critical sigh client as much as we can celebrate the accomplishments of but that's that like the the social issues are of
pivotal importance and end up having esthetic ramifications horrid acidic ramifications for kids who am I teach students you've grown up with this I know nothing else you know that the idea to any a lot talking about an in researcher for me it's an esthetic issue actually and when you get down to it the the I I I can
probably problematized any better than the magister judges brought broaden it and say I uh another way to go in told
us that this evening but I think that sort of think about your musical experience and with a special kind of coming from a traditional musical background this extends from sort early music education and not even taught keyboard skills and things but to this sort of instrumental musical experiences and the experiences of playing music with other people and we used to have a culture where everybody was involved in or not every most everybody was involved in some kind of communal music practice so trying to then turned music in something that's in the hands of a few people is something radically different in the 2 i for some of us at dictionary of deeply disturbing how often people from Kunduz mainstream Ministry model repeat this idea of music-making is too easy too many people are making music you know so they're they're they're trying to prove protect some kind of very specific elite that they are not to be overly accusatory but to the data that that grew out of a very strange reality the birth of the recorded media we seem to be returning back to something where everybody is making music but but then the
question is is the value of that music playing B and measured based on this sort of strange remnants of of this old system grafted onto some kind of new Internet culture that's 1 of the little idea how deep cover this disturbing questions and some level I am but I would say you know at the same time we can also consider
some of those other infrastructure elements you know that if you look at the musical output of a country that has public music education but even in the even on the digital side of things it's very different than that from a country that doesn't I'm so part of what
seems to be tempering kind of access to the global music market is the not just unequal access to the data recording distribution side of things but also unequal access to to music education instrumental education and and differences there so I think is we kind wildly widened to and more global music community will be interesting to see kind how we contend with that and contend with different different music educational backgrounds you might and that's enough yes it so so
all of this all of us are just me all of us OK so good as a recorder have proven that and they so that's there were were all exciting each other and probably I think I have like like like injecting caffeine into 1 another so that slowdown we can slow down and let it flow down it's only a great to listen to the recording at low speed which has a sound later which was making to the sound much more authoritative and having the mean time that's it's also an
infrastructural questioned because and think so that everybody is you remember to do that I don't have a coffee just before got lots of status for alright so am
we've got an fast I drew a little picture of the the infrastructure uh map and I was like to and so we've looked into than a little bit of a mixture of what's in what's currently there with you take Spotify playlist 1st big festival searches SoundCloud here uh spaces to perform the control the uh that that we have uh over the outwards ends and From here I'd like to to draw up a bit more into this before we get into the the conversation and hopefully get it all together in the and but I liked it because all of you have some are the active
in some way or the other to come to make to make to be an an active active in this space and and to to maybe change some some of the things and I think from those things we can learn also what's Smedley In addition to what he said was maybe a problematic of what needs to be changed and some that so I would like to add this stuff and then we can do the over of the discussion and at Daniela you've already status to talk a little bit about what what you how you you operate with cream cake but maybe you could say that a good and elaborate a bit further on what you do so you you're trying really to be at you to build your own independent network
and and watch you talked about the label and that type of contracts and so on what's other points that you are not met when a change so with that you were doing differently than the others or some of the others the other so so who who does no cream cake is an immense serious it is uh it started as a clerk nite or a laker relay music nights we do shows at all warm and we do not show their kind but we also worked with Powell and cover you to have more like that and I can overlap of dif different interdisciplinary an art form so for instance we work with they perform performance art music and and visual art and and then we we build like installations around it and to check out different environments and how music and art comes together and so that that said for for the beginning right so we we we are booking artists we are try to pay them always as much as possible which is also really interesting because no 1 actually we knows that when you when you offer someone if she I'm also restricted in some ways of how much they can pay this person because of and trends and then there's like that of the rent maybe orders at a different infrastructure behind that tool you know so I think it is always problematic in terms of India why culture you start with the emerging artists and and they
are read newcomers in that way and then they they make a good record they might become a power more powerful and then we are not able to pay the fees anymore for instance because we've we've been we don't we don't have that money yet except when we are
applying for funding so for instance this Fiji festival it's much better because we got like funding from city text and the always get findings from music board and that really helps also to support artists in a much more sustainable way because if you are doing a cap nights you want to make a living from our team and also the artist and they play and once once a month they would never make a living from this you know they have to play a lake each weekend and then 4 times and then there is the cloud who can offer this kind of shows now but if
you're not really considering itself as they in a sec someone who plays club music vendors a taught at different infrastructure then you connect more maybe this new this new music venues or you you you go into a gallery context and then there's no and trends and then you don't get a fee and the sound system is duty
and it's on a hold stories so there needs to be a lack of fundamental funding for for this type of scene because it's so interdisciplinary that it is connecting on so many things and I think that is a guy it's a challenge for for us to open the stores also and and and really hard work to to really get more funding for for for the people behind behind the project and also for the artist you would like to support and in this that everyone needs to do this hard work until you might be not fixed so an independent music scene anymore because I've because you gonna be mainstream or even on the mainstream festival
but to that point is we and on way and I think this is it's is is also good because you we urine you just learn everything by yourself you know and you will make mistakes and you would experience so many different things which is really amazing because if you think about it before you would have done anything you which is have signed a contract and then you give someone else the power to make the decisions and searching for the fitting song or their life and really pushing the superstar of the pop star idea of that mainstream culture and that's really is
something will be never have looked for do
you find the dependency on funding problematic and being
independent like that definitely that there there
the funding is always that you write an application for a for a for a for a data festival you we do in a concept-based working you sit there 2 weeks writing and then it's all in the hands of of this you remember sake it's it's it's you don't you don't really know them they also set in a different age group sometimes and they don't really know the context of these people who make the decisions are
not the ones who are going going out of all going to explore subculture in that sense you know they're coming more from academic a background very intellectual background often very white men had academic music background and in its sake if they don't try to to to get into the context then we we have also like a problem you know so this is a challenging thing that you approach approach
different new things but you should never stopped I think that is at the core of but we always had we always kept on going and it's growing and they because burden is a wonderful in terms of like grant and and and and of and of fees and everything that the whole structure is still elect is such a wonderland Bob a place you know which is analysis to do this in in a certain extent you know and but did but otherwise it's not not gonna it's and it's not in them and there's no funding system in America in that in that sense you know the thing but it's interesting
because now we for a for info for instance
we get money from what comes in Tokyo and and we got another with that another fund but it's not it's not enough for for going abroad and work with
the go to Penny's collaborator on factors festival but we still wanna do it because it is if she a wonderful idea and now I'm applying for funding for the Norwegian government for the Finnish Institute of now you collecting money from all the types of European culture funds which is amazing that this infrastructure exists In in America for instance it's not bad you know and other countries and so you start trying to to to find money I mean but also interesting in in terms of ICT infrastructure because there's a kind of money in cooperation and in music for instance if you do if you decide to work with a corporation that is might help for low can be vector the the the point where money comes in
but then it's stake them we have and we grew up in in Europe and and in Germany for instance and I come from the museum background you never have sponsoring of global cooperation institutions you know that's not what what what will be having but the tendency for instance
if you look at the British system there is fundraisers there is a different
financial structure to words that the private people give you give you budget where should look at I mean there's a great variable in a pretend to the native instruments who are actually giving money but then they also brand there you're you're events of it's also like a question of the core of the co-operators structure and Jonas how how you could approach them or if you want to you know that's the decision making do you want to work on a cognitive level and who and what's the purpose for for the corporation so well beyond just I I I would say I I mean I have I was sort of laughing but the United States but I would say you know that that still counts as I think that's a cancers an infrastructure right so this adjusted discovered different infrastructure but and I think the
United States is really lacking in ideas like cultural diplomacy and had just a just a little bit about half of what seems to be getting worse fast but but that you know I think there are things that maybe you they still coming from states that I would take for granted that you're not existing here in this there's a culture of I think is a culture public giving sometimes 2nd thing that could be less problematic even in some of the other things that we've talked about but there is a
there is a culture of kind of how to fundraise with private partners and mother isn't good federal arts infrastructures sometimes is quite good local arts infrastructure so it's assets that you know the the the it's
it's a it's a complicated such situation in a in the US and I you know I would also say um it's it there certainly challenges to working with certain governments I want to release and I think at ethically as well and obviously that that will impact your agenda in the same way that working with certain corporations with and
that was that was a common of funding infrastructure question something yeah it's the and spacing on the name of but there's a great book University Santacruz published talking about the legacy of German arts funding for the American avant-garde like poster cycle war and
it's remarkable book and I need to if you're curious about it please get me after so that my phone and find it on the argument within that is that most of what we understand to be the American avant-garde your cages and so on so forth wouldn't really exist if it weren't for and the support of and particularly things like jazz music also that in the Swiss and the French and still to this day I do huge children in supporting the acid taking it will most of what we understand as music doesn't exist without taking that funding somehow you know it there's a there's a mythical period of time that suggests they could exist by itself but it it most likely did in most cases or at least for uh the people margins so we go down
other higher so try to see whether I use that is a good fit the least say is that we have very maybe we maybe reminded if it's so happens at the helm of OK so and this is how the world of the thing which is I just just to kind of
back this up for a 2nd i guess i because just personal at I have I'm terrible at solving most of the problems that we just described even for myself individually and when it comes to figuring out how financial infrastructure is meant to work figuring out sometimes how to get paid sometimes is not my strongest skill at nor his business planning but I would say maybe a kind of look at the larger picture here I I I think 1 fundamental question is what is what really is the value of music you know and what will the value of music be to of society and
whether digital tech them digital technologies involved because the sort of microprocessor Lightspeed communication revolution is involved in in everything right now but but that's not I think that's not the point so much is figuring out what this where this value years and I'm OK uneven OK with some of that value coming from something like I'm
advertising have no problem with the this sort of global capital system getting involved with music as long as we can make it work for ourselves I pay my bills based on advertising so I don't see advertising Web and on websites as being fundamentally evil as some people do because if I didn't I would also see paying my rent is somehow fundamentally evil and I doubt but that's because I've been able to kind take that system and make it work it seems that the but the just expecting the serve world to organize itself around music-making is I of wildly unrealistic and and the reason is that cultures tend to view musicians as dangerous a lot of the time and the monetization of music is something that often gets marginalized almost nearly all of the time so we really have to kind of figure out some way to go into the system that's geared against us because people are mistrust mistrust what music does for society because it seems to make people go
crazy and consume a lot of drugs and alcohol and have sex and that's not just that's not just a kind of like at Berlin club notion this is something you can see repeated in lots of text from centuries back from cultures all over the world you can kind of do and at the musical logical survey and find
that there many many times that musicians start to be distrusted or marginalized from
society and that that that the kind of the main Internet businesses right now
are also really not organizer and music and have not found a way to make much money off of music so even as the industry complains that Google and Microsoft and Apple are getting rich off music that's really not true
if nobody is making money of music on the Internet and then nobody has a row clear idea how to do that the problem is that started the cycle where they could put music further and further and further to the side so if if ah problems in a bit intractable tonight I think this is part of why you know because that we have to remember that the natural tendency of what we do is for things to get marginalized but that doesn't mean that that that the natural value of music is small I think that the actual by music to sigh society is really great and the promise that we've had a disconnect with how the cut businesses are built around it and the and the the way that the music is valuable and then on top of that we have the industry coming in and saying there too many musicians which to me is a bit like saying that there too many people good at math what we actually need as more people to be making music and people's musical skill level the be higher on the that we shouldn't let the kind of this economic disconnect become an excuse for saying that everybody making music as it is a bad idea maybe that's a good points and
2 starts talking about um the resonates I find I think just as an example it will I hope you don't mind that we've not talking only about digital infrastructures so far but the topic has broadened but I think it's a it's a really good yeah and I think it's good at it the M and because it it
all kind of connects together space money and so on and to the question of how can we um organize our independence but use conscious and M. so talking about financing how do you so you see you describe how you try to make this cut conscientious possible through finding ways to attach to finance and and
so you're an adviser to the streaming service that a newly building up and that does a few things differently to do you wanna distract tours of peer Harris you'd
started to resonate is in the room so and we have 20 minutes and yes there is a I guess to to bought shares of small description is a platform cooperative the nature of apart from cooperative is I guess if you're to boil it down you say think about platform that you use and then imagine if
that was owned by the people that use it is probably the easiest way to describe it so there's a platform cooperative alternative to Cuba for example where the prices are not determined from above by a few people you don't get to communicate with the determined by the
people use it by the drivers uses these a small projects right now but there increasing in number and scale them so resonate you could consider resonate them an equivalent to all right now you an
equivalent to say Spotify in the sense that everybody who participates in resonate both the audience and the artist's own a share in stake in resonate they collectively get to determine what features are added to the platform and because it is known built on the block chain which is something that many of you will probably toward you probably hear a lot in this at this conference that and there was a lot of cool
things that could be built on top of it and so speak going back to that on the idea of agency I was discussing before 1 could say that it starts at is a streaming service there's so many other applications that can be determined by the community in order to speculate on new revenue streams or speculate on just cool new interactions around music that actually take music beyond this stagnant waveform that's compressed shot around the world all of these things become
possible when we have collective ownership of that platform and try a convincing Spotify to make a change and you have to
contend with the shareholders get ultimately and tank-led at that point right so and to speak to it to b is
point I I agree with you on a level where say when it comes to advertising I would never judge someone for taking money I'm actually for my community generally like a bit more diplomatic the most people about things like RedBull or able to for example I think there's a place for that because in many cases they are
reinforcing or or filling a gap has been left so by this this kind decimation distinction lost in last 10 15 years I think it's a very complicated issue of that being said try E. imagining you know an apple commercial or any of the
digital infrastructures the monopolies that exist we the the kind of the will or the momentum of youth culture and subculture removed from them they'll start looking very dry and very kind of dusty and the opportunity to me is to say if we're the ones creating the value and in my mind the initiatives like yours in LA are creating the value because I've seen this multiple times what you're putting on that wall
through economic pressures and up like being grabbed by legacy labels which then in turn will influence the major labels which then in turn will influence what you hear on an advertisement in the middle of cultural you know what
you're doing is you're providing credible Valley because there's at and traditionally in and musicians have provided the only if we start to
acknowledge that Ali and take ownership over and this is that the funny thing is that we have more tools available to us now that the cost of doing this so much lower than ever work and the good will and the ability to find people to help
you build these things you know is is increased tenfold from when the original independent pioneers built the original independent is a constraint if we are to do that used to say that there is a financial incentive at the end of the deck of but I do know the companies do profit from music maybe not directly they take they take a loss on on right so in Apple paying will have a much for a Drake exclusive they take a loss on that but they but they they they benefit greatly from having that as part of the arsenal and they understand that that is a a huge part of the ecosystem is a huge part had they sold solar products in the 1st place right so that the speculative from Iran projects like resonate and other things like soccer which we don't need to go into but the other parties have been involved with and things the whole and I do this power practiced it's a stable what are the new kind of boundaries or frontiers for this kind of independence if we were to ferment a consciousness of a new form of independence what kind of parity we have and that the answer might be enough will but it's really worth asking that question because at this point in time you know it's cheaper to do it we can get in touch with as many people as possible and yet there's this this conversation seems to be somewhat lacking right and the answer might be that through blockchain system built here through a service like resonate musicians that may not end up selling their salsa but they might end up selling moments you know the light experience might expands indicate to 50 countries worldwide and you need the the song format itself what change amid the economic structures around music of have have modulated the song format for as long as we know right radio songs were were shortened in order to work better with radio advertising right there's all different kind of way the song can move that we might be able to monetize
but we don't have a fucking say it when it comes to working with Apple Spotify or these methods powerful monopolies so it's not for me down to the question policies were not to get any further unless we start taking that more control over this thing is a great for stock in doing found 1 thing what 0 1 service that I've been thinking about uh in context of this topic is banned come on
because I have I've I've always found in that band camp has kind of not super cool image but in a way it's like I think the only they really platform that is working profitable or that actually has music as a business model because there you you you can stream there after few streams you have to buy a which the song which makes sense so you can listen for free then you buy it is supported not as I kind of really I think is quite a good science can always wondering
why people are not using it more and and so on do people use it to be you also get the e-mail address also by by bright at a distance from the binary devices that I really like it to it's a good it's a good platform and it's also been around for a long time and they also take a cut I think it's a 15 per cent interest and you look
what's what's really funny is if you if you will have a someone online for 99 cents and then then can get a cut and then people to pay people gives a cut for the transition and then you look at your X sheet and then you have linked millions of little tiny numbers which adds up to 30 euros in the end so this administrative process of like how do think this is monetized also when you register your understood the mind and we do that game procedure and then they collect all the the tiny little coins together and then in the end is they come if if during its 6 really a lot of administrative work in this kind of old system so it is kind of trying to monetize some money with this kind of OK this is a one year old but
it takes power is infrastructure works is quite we had I think for instance we put out an appeal last Friday ages 4 euros for for tracks so each track worm born Europe we operators is through an aggregator of digital distribution company and it is on iTunes by an iTunes it's just to 99 because of the consumer buys it for the whole package as at the whole for tracks they give discount and they don't
even ask you know they don't see a few of you OK with this and now this disappears and 270 shops and it all has different prices and the only 1 who actually what I put everything correct and world featured always small and artist names how it's supposed to be written and in some platforms it's totally wrong and how would this this information come there you know and and and we like I'm not going to think about it I mean and and cooling and then I'm finding that the piece somewhere totally random in some communities and their reading it and they're talking about it and this is really interesting how how it how it goes everywhere and without the without you knowing and then use it is it will hard this is funny but it is small money in the end and and how it is working and also Spotify 5 this is also really interesting that they really began labels independently of the so the kool-aid now displayless and there's like walking clearly is there's a come 2 so it's it's so funny and then also the smaller artists retweet displayed as a missing I'm in the in the inner planets 9 I think it's really nice how they there grading the played standard makes you money then they put back a little like mainstream music than the more smaller artists and then they tried they artists also to get more of that make money from it and then say this is an interesting idea that playlist Spotify is the thing now and it's not caregiver getting you so much money that you want is a smaller label you you you won't benefit so much but there are people paying and people pre-ordering and it's really nice to know and this is that it's a good thing then how could
you make so them pay more and I think in the event situation it's we also restricted to 2 what surprise you know if you cannot it's
all it's also different access if you say piece page welfare like eating would be even better you know but it's a good different thing if you got every weekend page 18 years at the door you you you you don't have so much money and end of the day and then we can't anymore so it's it's sake uh how how where is this money come from the same comes from the consumer end we try to change the consumer behavior in the sense that they are giving more more music and more money to music um how how how we could do that but I also really like the the the resonate India because it's it's it's a good idea and how how you when you you sign up to and how the platform is talking to you is actually already many different you know if you fill come and you feel like like someone is is taking care and if you're really using a digital that music distribution or anything like you really think that you you talk on ICA and mobile line you know you waiting for for a 30 of 30 minutes no 1 is talking to you know 1 is if you if you yeah with the distribution of we don't have like a contract or anything like that but it's a like if you use a
decision aggregators and like taking yeah I think then you need to get a better deal with the digital distribution company then they take a cut then you might end up doing why no then you have to have more budget in into you music so and wondering wastes and some of the those like Spotify romance and also before this modifier players influences the festivals and so
with some of those players being so so that large and dominant already and what what do you think they alternative approaches coming up now like resonators so what what's that times even to for them to to come because of that network effects and everything that's in the favor of those who already have all the repertoire at this point we do
think about world I mean how you the source that is simmering this room for competition so I I I made them more hesitant to
just below find somebody like that some clever Spotify I mean I think this is the reality is a lot of people a lot of artists have gravitated to Spotify on SoundCloud and and Band Camp because for different reasons not because they were able to find some sort of traction their you know they were able to find some kind of solution there're will kind of get some of the music out so I I agree with all the criticisms that are here the book that you'll hear me gripe about them to but I m avidly some optimism so talking to people about some some of the positives from the services there should be room should be lots of room of this
is so much music being made in so much music being consumed there should be room out there for some new ideas now unless this is Silicon Valley problem unless there's a kind of a tiny number of tech companies to determine all the funding in the direction of all industry that that service and that's a good but I mean band gap is a good solution and then and then you know both of your images there are good are good examples to you in that you know we can talk about kind of solving affordable housing
globally and we can also talk about kind of like a fourier solving affordable housing in quite back you now have that we might have and that the impact of solving affordable housing and quite about is just is just as real maybe more real because we might like it somewhere and so will ban conferences became hugely hugely successful ended in a business that had never existed before which has people going in and buying independent video game soundtracks and so now there is a whole economy around and there's a whole a whole group of listeners in the music sounds kind of like nothing is ever really sounded before because this is a totally new culture that didn't exist before and and and there's a real healthy kind of little underground compositions market you so that you you got everything there so I think can you know as we continue to kind of focus on our own human scale and and can continue to do some of the things that we do what we may not solve the overarching problems part of the reason some of us are not necessarily
venture capital funders is that we may be better working on that scale under some exciting things happening there yeah disagree sorry you had that I made right I I agree at that isn't she mentioned in the video video game soundtracks right I have friends in the independent video game industry and they sell stuff you can make independent video games and live a healthy life and in fact in many ways culturally
because there's a lot of money involved in that and a lot of good will and again of fomented their sense of identity in opposition to a dominant industry a dominant kind of Don Dan industry they're there use cases all over the world right like you could look at different issues where people are paying for the stuff the thing that where I agree with you and I disagree with you simultaneously I agree with you on the DL because when you usually met network effects Popper monopolies and venture capital and the fact that the speed anyway Silicon Valley neutral so that music they see as the problem has been solved it in their mind also music is also that involves it's it's a wave file and then you abandon it looks like a band from the seventies this is I don't know if if we were to stop a bit more ambitious with us of saying will know you can have that if you want that representation of music by all mainstream that poodle playlists whatever we want to be something different there are markets at and so while I agree with you on the 1 hand I also demand we be more ambitious than because there's a there's also like a kind of diplomatic
acceptance of the current state of affairs the wall I think has rationale to it also think can also somewhat plicate a sense of urgency around this where for me it's not necessarily music will always exist and will always
have some degree of value for me my interest in music is it is it is relevant see them and when I see the way that these powerful monopolies represent music and you go the fossils and it's the same thing and the same thing in the it's the eighties now it's the nineties and sort of a a we just blissfully forget that we're living in this new technological age were anything could happen what I agree with you and I also think no if we were to stop being a bit more ambitious in a bit more insistent on this there's a market out there and and you can look at other markets to see good examples of yeah and so and so ultimately that that you can use for example the in the in the video
game market and where there are like huge amounts of money he amounts money transacted and this this is a cycle humble bundle for example that friend of mine had a game sold through where the icon of abolished the figures but an abstract and have money spent on bundled video games the guide through newsletter and there's a story behind that is an identity behind and I think there's so much good will within musical communities that we could from a similar sense of urgency but were not going to get there through kind of yeah satisfying diplomatically our relationships with Spotify assigned class where they have been on sale or other just kind of like relativizing so that there is there are opportunities that is all onset and and again to bring about fundamentally it's the static problem because music if you if you take away the relevant like that music's uh power to represent people on the margins to insert new things through these timeworn culture mechanisms integrator coat with this course if you remove that you've lost it that's that's what music is from a you know I I can listen to the 16 hundred people making to records a home I don't care units not coffee table music that lead to meet more than that and so if we if we start seeding this 2 players cultures that for example don't represent the labels and you know try
finding a warp records page on Spotify you'll find their playlists but try finding a page that's problematic for me and I think we could do about that did do you see any do you see it
uh we talked about resident you see any example where you would say all this is actually a good that is they with that shirt when I think I in the people you brought by bank and is a good honest services it's it's always colegas storefront right you go in there you pay money they take a cut you get money it's great for me my personal interests then again it's it represents music up until a certain point and I think we could do that I think the way the people interact around music no represents all these
wonderful opportunities from authorization and experimentation that what kind of stops short of bank and bank and is a place to listen to linear music and and transact as if you were buying a record 20 years ago it's at nite or community that's fine and that's great for certain expectation of so I like and company use it but I think we can think bigger and that's where the voting comes in and sort of or the what what else is there to that and
and the so OK we have 1 minutes who was friend I am half a year in the demand and as I discovered I just think this Spotify's run by some musicians they the musicians are happy with them they listener feedback from
musicians SoundCloud I think that the same is true the even people at iTunes were the same is true there are there's tons of problems with them with plenty to criticize and let's the precise but Facebook the problem is the problem as facebook facebook is now the become the gatekeeper were everybody sees the formation it's everybody's new dopamine dose for the day it's absolutely destroying the world and I think I can say that without fear of of offending anyone of facebook because it wouldn't even matter if I pissed off you know I wouldn't post-op apple or sell clutter Spotify might be worried about my future is a musician by can literally stand here and say like Facebook is Satan and it would never any impact on my music life because Facebook is totally uninterested in music and I think if we
tear down 1 thing let's turn down the Germany Facebook hours on all of our lives and the way that we would get music if you could find music on Facebook which have the time you can't and you know the fact that I I think I agree with but that that element Daniel to and everything that is also good because you mentioned on the on the Twitter once because when we are we facebook is actually really important to us because that's where we put our events that's where we are inviting our community and that's where the community sees the events and I
always think that we never got get this limit anymore the remote allowed to invite anymore friends because our percentage of attendances all is always right so I have been at this point so far but then other people saying like so sorry can you just sit because I'm not I I'm not allowed to to to to invite anyone else anymore and I think that is really it really crazy how this gatekeeping works and you mentioned underbidder ones that we that we've that we do not you may rounds and and really the
main reason we rewrite e-mails and and ask people to to come or if they would like to come in or in and then you need the man and the personal contact and in my people and as they go and that as the that type of connection now maybe as a as a closing uh um my thing is in good close threat I think at the end of matter and I found in in Europe uh profile link that you're means you have got a group together how to get away from Facebook events the that that that that we can use that maybe we can use this like as a closing to then yeah
exactly what is the goal of both those points of for me is a pure mentioned
that the dove mean thing that might be it might be my kind of uh analogy for face because it's it's like a ball or forever right it's like government spikes and they keep you in this 1 space and like I went to aboard so I could meet people and and
leave the bar fine like a better environment and and the thing is the network effect of Facebook dictates that you know people leave in the last the 1 thing they is they don't don't hear about that's unlike that's torture that's really wrong so if we were to try and build a an alternative a simple alternative to Facebook events the lie people to find out about things without having to go through Facebook and that could actually have a wonderful effective of weaning people of that thing and so yes so we we put uh group a 1st group together and we've actually written a grand a Grant for it to try and before there was interested in it were hoping to build it sometime this year was there was on some yet but it's the scalable gestures that could actually ultimately have a really big impact on and that's not even mentioned that the the dangers of of having particularly marginal communities grew communities political act like activist communities the danger of having all the information publicly available on advertising network which not adopted the glow or kind of play violin we lost a lot friends in the Oakland fire these families were being called by trolls on 4 chan because while they were looking for the missing people were posting public cell phone numbers 2 of their mothers and fathers onto a Facebook event page under an culture doesn't mean that right in whatever circumstances and after
after as a result of the tragedy there were other space is being shut down by the police because they had a paper trail from Facebook events to say will this person went a party that they also went party the space I guess the having underground parties that it's just bad it's bad vibes in election so so so that the really good it's it's a really good maybe place to store in winning people off this this number OK I think and the a effect thing of I think that the levels here thank
you and for the compensation and we didn't do uh Q and a with the audience but that's the you and I we can do if you have a bit of time over a drink because I have a bag of drink tickets here and effective ways you can do it collects from year and I think there's some from that they're sponsored by the donor music commission and the club commission very generous ends and the only thing is I don't know exactly where we are going with them so so there is that there is a networking area on which I haven't been to yeah that's um and I don't know think colleagues from my talk commission of music Commission actually know where to go up so that we can go over there together but I have some tickets yet ends the problem is has is over there and she has the other ones yeah he's living there so I get well thank you very much and you have let's continue over it
and the and if you need me
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Metadaten

Formale Metadaten

Titel Digital Music Infrastructures (Music Pool Berlin Community Evening)
Serientitel re:publica 2017
Anzahl der Teile 234
Autor Goetzke, Andrea
Kirn, Peter
Dryhurst, Mat
Seitz, Daniela
Eitel, Eric
Lizenz CC-Namensnennung - Weitergabe unter gleichen Bedingungen 3.0 Deutschland:
Sie dürfen das Werk bzw. den Inhalt zu jedem legalen Zweck nutzen, verändern und in unveränderter oder veränderter Form vervielfältigen, verbreiten und öffentlich zugänglich machen, sofern Sie den Namen des Autors/Rechteinhabers in der von ihm festgelegten Weise nennen und das Werk bzw. diesen Inhalt auch in veränderter Form nur unter den Bedingungen dieser Lizenz weitergeben.
DOI 10.5446/32972
Herausgeber re:publica
Erscheinungsjahr 2017
Sprache Englisch

Inhaltliche Metadaten

Fachgebiet Informatik
Abstract How do digital environments shape the way we experience music, and also how we live, produce, and survive as artists? What do we think about infrastructures as they currently exist, are they supportive to our (maybe different) visions of music culture, and what are our ideas for them in the future?

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