Solutions for a more equal electronic music scene and business
This is a modal window.
The media could not be loaded, either because the server or network failed or because the format is not supported.
Formal Metadata
| Title |
| |
| Title of Series | ||
| Number of Parts | 234 | |
| Author | ||
| License | CC Attribution - ShareAlike 3.0 Germany: You are free to use, adapt and copy, distribute and transmit the work or content in adapted or unchanged form for any legal purpose as long as the work is attributed to the author in the manner specified by the author or licensor and the work or content is shared also in adapted form only under the conditions of this | |
| Identifiers | 10.5446/33060 (DOI) | |
| Publisher | ||
| Release Date | ||
| Language |
Content Metadata
| Subject Area | ||
| Genre | ||
| Abstract |
|
re:publica 201790 / 234
1
5
7
10
12
13
18
19
20
22
31
32
37
42
43
44
48
51
65
72
74
78
79
88
89
101
104
106
107
108
109
115
127
138
142
150
152
156
159
160
166
167
172
175
181
183
185
186
188
191
197
201
204
206
208
210
213
214
215
217
220
221
223
224
226
234
00:00
DemosceneText editorText editorMusical ensembleLevel (video gaming)Computer animationJSONXMLUMLLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
00:49
Cellular automatonContext awarenessBitFlow separationTelecommunicationPersonal digital assistantTheoryDifferent (Kate Ryan album)Perspective (visual)DigitizingForcing (mathematics)Musical ensembleInformation technology consultingMereologyOnline chatView (database)Shared memoryText editorContent (media)GenderFormal languageUser-generated contentRow (database)Core dumpLecture/Conference
03:17
GenderData conversionMusical ensembleStatisticsAreaIdentifiabilityDisk read-and-write headFlow separationInstance (computer science)Field (computer science)Drill commandsRight angleTelecommunicationLatent heatEvent horizonTerm (mathematics)Finite-state machineHeegaard splittingLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
05:06
Latent heatSeries (mathematics)Event horizonMusical ensembleCovering spaceTelecommunicationInstance (computer science)PolygonPole (complex analysis)Position operatorVideo gameLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
06:31
Series (mathematics)TwitterState observerWordMusical ensembleMultiplication signStatisticsTelecommunicationPerspective (visual)Representation (politics)Heegaard splittingParity (mathematics)NumberBitSummierbarkeitDemosceneEqualiser (mathematics)Term (mathematics)Event horizonMeeting/InterviewLecture/Conference
08:00
Position operatorMusical ensembleTerm (mathematics)SoftwareDifferent (Kate Ryan album)Physical systemNumberPressureMetric systemLecture/Conference
08:45
WordPoint (geometry)NumberInstance (computer science)DemosceneSoftwareText editorContext awarenessEvent horizonGoodness of fitLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
10:12
Perspective (visual)Rule of inferenceType theorySource code
10:55
Decision theoryContext awarenessEvent horizonTwitterWritingNumberStrategy gameSpectrum (functional analysis)Content (media)BitMultiplication signMusical ensembleCore dumpProjective planeMereologyPressureComplex (psychology)Covering space1 (number)Term (mathematics)Digital photographyWordFocus (optics)Instance (computer science)Lecture/Conference
14:22
Lattice (order)Event horizonMereologyMultiplication signPerspective (visual)Group actionEndliche ModelltheorieComputer programmingFocus (optics)WordBijectionMoment (mathematics)Musical ensembleData structureStatisticsForcing (mathematics)Workstation <Musikinstrument>Right angleProcess (computing)Lecture/Conference
16:24
WordMusical ensembleProduct (business)Strategy gameLevel (video gaming)Labour Party (Malta)NumberPosition operatorGateway (telecommunications)Touch typingLine (geometry)Power (physics)Wage labourMarginal distributionLecture/Conference
19:22
Elektronisches MarketingContext awarenessConnected spaceMenu (computing)Lecture/Conference
20:22
Cycle (graph theory)NumberMultiplication signFigurate numberData conversion
21:08
Strategy gameEvent horizonData conversionProduct (business)InformationVideo gameBitTerm (mathematics)Group actionConnected spaceMultiplication signWordMiniDiscNegative numberMeeting/InterviewLecture/Conference
22:47
Musical ensembleComputing platformResultantComputer configurationTrailPhysical systemProduct (business)Event horizonMeeting/Interview
23:34
Event horizonSpacetimeMusical ensembleBitData miningFamilyMultiplication signTelecommunicationCausality
24:58
Musical ensembleModal logicOrder (biology)SpacetimeFood energyText editorCASE <Informatik>Sheaf (mathematics)Computer-assisted translationMeeting/InterviewLecture/Conference
25:42
Event horizonInstance (computer science)Content (media)SpacetimeProfil (magazine)Context awarenessCycle (graph theory)Data conversionComputing platformNegative numberLine (geometry)Multiplication signNetwork topologyGroup actionRight angleLecture/Conference
27:12
Right angleCircleSinc functionMultiplication signDemosceneProcess (computing)Point (geometry)CASE <Informatik>Formal languageBitLecture/Conference
28:25
System administratorForm (programming)Internet forumBitMusical ensemblePhysical systemMathematicsLecture/Conference
29:27
Power (physics)Position operatorMetropolitan area networkHypermediaMultiplication signStandard deviationRootMeeting/Interview
30:13
Text editorData conversionPoint (geometry)Macro (computer science)Instance (computer science)Goodness of fitMereologyClassical physicsRight angleConfidence intervalMusical ensembleLink (knot theory)SoftwareTelecommunicationComputer configurationInteractive televisionComputer programmingProcess (computing)Lecture/Conference
32:34
Data structureMultiplication signProcess (computing)Distribution (mathematics)Confidence intervalAcoustic shadowSet (mathematics)Meeting/Interview
34:16
SoftwarePhysical lawPressureWaveFacebookGroup actionPhysical systemMusical ensemblePeer-to-peerOnline helpLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
35:16
ResultantProcess (computing)SoftwareComputing platformMultiplication signMusical ensembleStreaming mediaScaling (geometry)BitInstance (computer science)Perspective (visual)Formal languageMathematicsRoboticsGenderProjective planeSoftware developerException handlingNeuroinformatikRight angleDirection (geometry)Computer programmingDigitizingLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
38:45
NeuroinformatikMusical ensemblePerspective (visual)Lecture/Conference
39:37
Event horizonMereologyProcess (computing)Data conversionACIDInstance (computer science)Focus (optics)Confidence intervalInequality (mathematics)BitLaptopMeeting/InterviewLecture/Conference
41:45
Office suiteMusical ensemblePhysical systemMedical imagingProcess (computing)Position operatorPersonal digital assistantLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
42:52
Musical ensembleOrder (biology)MereologyText editorFormal languageCASE <Informatik>Vector spaceLecture/Conference
44:00
MereologyMultiplication signHydraulic jumpDisk read-and-write headProcess (computing)Right angleGodLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
45:17
Strategy gamePower (physics)Row (database)Musical ensembleEvent horizonStatisticsElement (mathematics)Meeting/Interview
46:05
Forcing (mathematics)Strategy gameDemosceneTerm (mathematics)ArmEvent horizonBookmark (World Wide Web)WordDirection (geometry)Right angleNumberGroup actionFacebookMereologyMetropolitan area networkFocus (optics)Service (economics)Lecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
47:41
TrailRight angleNumberShift operatorWritingMultiplication signQuicksortPoint (geometry)Digital Equipment CorporationLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
48:39
Set (mathematics)WordEvent horizonEqualiser (mathematics)Profil (magazine)Level (video gaming)Moment (mathematics)Multiplication signMereologyLecture/Conference
49:43
Point (geometry)Perspective (visual)MathematicsLecture/Conference
50:42
Projective planeCircleTrailMusical ensembleTelecommunicationMultiplication signReading (process)Different (Kate Ryan album)Group actionTerm (mathematics)Meeting/Interview
52:43
HypermediaGame controllerMultiplication signBitLaptopStatisticsVapor barrierPressureMoment (mathematics)Perspective (visual)Traffic reportingData structureMusical ensembleProduct (business)Dependent and independent variablesTerm (mathematics)AreaCASE <Informatik>Digital electronicsMP3Lecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
55:30
Musical ensembleTelecommunicationDemosceneNumberMultiplication signWebsiteWordShared memoryLecture/Conference
56:50
HypermediaSelf-organizationRight angleProcess (computing)Multiplication signBitLecture/ConferenceMeeting/InterviewComputer animation
Transcript: English(auto-generated)
00:17
Thank you very much for coming to join us for this discussion.
00:21
My name is Christine, as you've just heard. I'm a music journalist and editor and copywriter and strategist within the marketing sphere, within the music industry. I've worked in music for almost 15 years now, and I'd love to bring out the rest of the panellists from behind the stage to join me.
00:54
So I think it's a good place to start. If each of you could introduce yourselves a little bit of context
01:01
as to how you're involved in the music industry, in particular the electronic music industry, and then we can take it from there. So hey everyone, I'm Anita Iori. I'm a research assistant at the Berlin University of the Arts, and I'm just currently finishing my PhD on electronic dance music
01:22
and the discourse community of electronic dance music. It's a linguistic perspective where one can already see the differences in the communication behaviour among female and male participants, because mainly I'm doing research on user-generated content online,
01:43
and then how we use language actually online and talk about music, so that's mainly my topic. It's not the gender perspective, but that's how I approach it, and maybe I can add some words about that later and also about this educational part. I don't know, should I say anything else? Or it's fine in the beginning.
02:02
Yeah, it's good? Hello, I'm Thomas Voorheijer. I'm the German editor and chief of Vamp. That's the electronic music and club culture channel of WISE, and I've been a music journalist and editor for a few years by now.
02:24
Hi everyone, my name is Dizi Fach. I run a small label called Snow White Records. I'm also on the VOT, the vice-chairwoman of VOT. VOT is the Association of Independent Smaller Music Companies in Germany,
02:40
and we have a market share of 40%, and I'm curious to the talk today. Hi, my name is Camille. I'm a digital consultant and I run my own communication agency. I'm also a freelance writer and a DJ. I DJ under the name Berlin Disaster, and I've been organizing some workshops for women and LGBT people
03:06
to learn how to DJ, and also organizing several parties with all female lineups. So I guess the main core purpose of this discussion
03:23
is to look at actionable solutions to address this gender disparity and not to focus so much on the disparity itself, but I think before we launch into that conversation it would be good to start with just some basic statistics so we have an idea of what we're actually talking about.
03:41
So these are just some basic statistics that I pulled about the music industry and then some kind of more specific instances within electronic music. So to start with, generally speaking in terms of workforce, women comprise 30% of the music industry workforce. Women make up 59% of entry-level business roles within the music industry,
04:04
but only 30% of senior executive roles, and within that split men are over-represented in areas of A&R, label heads, etc., whereas women are over-represented in the fields of PR and marketing, etc.
04:20
In 2010, this is a UK statistic, 47% of women in music earned under £10,000 a year compared with 35% of men, and that gap really hasn't changed very much since then. From the UK Performing Rights Society, which is like a kind of collection society that represents writers and producers,
04:41
only 14% of their members are women, and in the music industry overall, less than 5% of recognised producers identify as being women. So that's overall, but also if we kind of drill down into electronic music, I thought there'd be a few interesting instances to put forth to the panel. In 2016, a popular event and label brand called Deckmantle from Amsterdam,
05:08
they announced an event called Deckmantle Selectors, and they have a main event called Deckmantle, but this specific boutique event was more about kind of bringing together the crème de la crème
05:20
of technical and musical DJs, people who really define DJing as an art, and they were heavily criticised because of the almost 80 artists that they booked, only seven were female. Also in 2016, DJ Mag, which is a very popular kind of more mainstream electronic music publication,
05:41
they put out their 25th anniversary edition, which had 25 pioneers of electronic music on the cover, and none of them were women. Also from DJ Mag, they publish a very highly publicised Top 100 poll each year, and they've had instances over the last, let's say 15 years,
06:00
where there have been no women represented at all, and those positions are voted by the public. Looking at Resident Advisor as well, their Top 100 DJ poll, which is publicly voted, featured seven women last year, and their Top 50 Live Acts poll featured no women.
06:22
One other interesting thing that's happened in the last few months is there is a British DJ by the name of Jack Master, who has quite a big following, and he posted a series of really widely shared tweets about his personal observations with regards to sexism within the music industry,
06:40
but I thought his wording was really interesting, and I'm just quoting him here, tonight was the first time that the plight and or prejudice surrounding females in the music industry truly hit home and resonated with me. I just thought that was an interesting way of framing his perspective. And the last statistic is there was a Nielsen poll in 2014,
07:02
and of all electronic music listeners, 45% are female and 55% are male. So I just wanted to put all of those statistics out to all of you and also to the panel so we can start addressing this idea of how to reflect that kind of split
07:21
when it comes to listenership, how it can be better reflected within the music industry for the creators and also for the people who work in the business. So I'd love to just open it up with putting to all of you, what is your idea of equality within this electronic music scene? Is it just about a 50-50 split? Is it about kind of a numbers parity with numbers
07:42
or is it something that goes a little bit deeper than that? I'd love to know. Well, obviously it starts with equality in terms of representation. So I think that today there should not be an event that doesn't feature female artists
08:00
to study on the artistic side of it. But then it also needs to mean that there are enough women working within the music industry and as you mentioned before, so in leading positions and not only as interns or PR and marketing positions.
08:24
I think in Berlin we are quite spoiled with these numbers and we are with those ratas because we have here in Berlin female pressure and all those networks and thousands of other things, female gadak and so on. So there are a lot of different network systems
08:41
and I think Berlin is quite good at those ratas and we are getting to this 50-50% or maybe even higher. But the rest of the world is just terrible to hear those numbers that are like this. I still have the hope that it will get to this point but maybe later on we can talk about this female rata
09:02
and all those things too, that's what can also help about that. I would just add that to make the scene more diverse and even in Berlin you have many clubs for instance who run nights where it's only one white male DJ after another
09:23
and you have eight of them booked, where people like me, editors and bookers and promoters are held accountable for what they're actually putting out. Yeah, I think your Anita has right in Berlin
09:40
there's a lot of happening there, you've got networks and I think it's really important that DJs who are already in the scene support the new DJs and I think it's good that the networks are happening but it's all about creating awareness. So I think the people who are booking events
10:05
have to book female DJs more often. I guess my question to something like that is how do you see it being enforced or how do you see people being held accountable
10:23
for not kind of complying because obviously it's not a rule, it's something that people are aware of but I feel like from the perspective of a club owner or it's really easy to fall back on this excuse of like well I don't want to book somebody because they don't deserve it
10:40
or I want to book this person because they've been booked before and they're going to bring people in. I mean I don't know, do any of you have any ideas about how to overcome those types of clapbacks which are in some way validated but yeah how to kind of get people over that hurdle of not enforcing things that they might want to support
11:04
but making kind of commercial decisions if you know what I mean. I would say it's a lot about raising awareness. Something I do for example very often is just like sharing ideal lineups that I would do. Like I do it on Twitter very often of only female acts
11:21
who have a very large following which might like show to some people that they are actually very successful female artists that they could book that would bring people and it's also about not like being uncompromising when booking events. I would say like I'm launching a new female focus party
11:42
actually next week that is focusing on tropical music and I have a lot of male contacts that are already asking me to play the next ones but even if I love them very much I've just decided that I will keep booking only women because that's these kind of events that might like make numbers a little bit better.
12:06
Yeah and another kind of thing what could help is the female quota. There's a lot of discussions now that is going on because of that and I'm also a little bit of critical about that because I'm hearing it continuously from my friends
12:20
who are female DJs and producers who say that I don't want to be the part of the female quota. I don't want to be the 30 percent because I'm just invited to a club or to a place because I'm a female and I have to be but it can be also a temporary solution still though that we push it somehow above
12:42
and then we reach those numbers and after a while maybe in 10 years or 15 years it's going to be completely normal that 50-50 percent of the lineup is female or male so that can be one of that. Maybe you have some words to that? Yeah and I think Thomas like when we spoke last week I think you had some really interesting strategies
13:03
that you already have in place in terms of including diverse voices when it comes to creating content because it definitely does have an impact I think if it's just white dudes you know. Yeah people like me and the situation is that the core team I work with
13:25
is like yeah guys like me in that sense and that kind of leads to me thinking like I think we need to have a diverse coverage because a diverse coverage is more engaging and I think like is a better solution at all
13:42
and a more just one and that's why I'm like like you mentioned female pressure earlier you know doing the numbers of like festival lineups who's playing where and like I did the same or like I regularly do the same thing for my own work looking like who me and my team cover
14:04
looking into who I'm sending out to do photography to do the writing and trying to balance that and also holding the festivals accountable or like the nights so there's sometimes nights with male only booking for instance
14:21
or even like and we think okay so like there's some really great DJs in there which we would love to support so we like write something about the event or the festival but at the same time we mentioned that hey that's a good booking here but it's not a diverse booking that's like a sad thing about it
14:43
and that often leads to people saying well actually we thought about this in the beginning but we didn't enforce it once we were like programming it and I think that's like at least tiny part you can do like not only just having this as a topic but also like as a really like problematization
15:02
which then leads to action I also think I always look at everything from the music industry perspective and I think it's that you also have to have role models so if you're a young woman and you go to a club and then you see somebody DJing there, female DJ
15:22
so this helps you to get yourself together and try to be a DJ too so at the VOT, the Association of Independent Companies we had this mentor program but this is really an industry focus
15:41
so where women, experienced women in the industry meet mentees like young people young women who are just entering the business and they got matched and over six months they had like a one-to-one meetings and like monthly meetings with all of them and I think it's about like
16:01
I know this is a word it's always going together with feminism like empowering but I think it is we have to empower each other to break all the structures which hold the young women back at the moment I think it's also closely connected to the education generally
16:23
that there's like also statistics existing about it that women are more comfortable with female lecturers and this is exactly the same thing what you mentioned that if there are some music production courses DJing courses and so on what you also do maybe you can also say some words about that
16:43
from female artists or from female DJs I think it's very important to have then also women can ask questions in an intimate atmosphere that they don't feel shy or they don't feel pressed down by male and I'm not generalizing here that all male are doing the same thing
17:01
but still that it's another atmosphere for the whole lecturing thing I think it's really interesting that you're talking about creating very distinct pathways
17:21
to allow young women to have access to people with knowledge or people who can provide them with employment et cetera, et cetera and I think it's definitely a strategy that is logical and I think quite powerful because it does empower but I'm also interested because I think sometimes with these discussions
17:41
a lot of the onus is put on the people who may have already been kind of how can I put it a lot of the labour like the actual labour and the emotional labour is kind of placed on the shoulders of women to help other women do you think that there are any strategies that people can implement widely
18:03
for example I know of a couple of male artists who won't be booked on particular lineups or particular festivals if there aren't a certain proportion of women there did any of you have any other ideas about how people who aren't women
18:20
or who aren't marginalised folks can support in a way that's impactful? Yeah exactly I think you mentioned it last week when we were coming here that there are a lot of DJs or male DJs who don't go to festivals or where it's at least I don't know 30% of the lineup is female
18:41
or female DJs or producers so I think it's kind of on this micro level it works like this really in the lowest level that you as a person as an activist you do something against this whole terrible numbers and this can be also one of them so I know a lot of people who do that
19:00
or male DJs and producers but maybe there are other examples I don't know Well I think it's also up to people in this gateway positions to kind of stand up to each other
19:21
and use this backdoor chat or the backstage chat to make each other accountable as I already said and I think people should commit and sometimes you can do that through creating a campaign online
19:41
and writing articles but this has already been done and I think the topic is out there and people are aware of it but many are not aware of it why they write about it or represent this idea that they don't really apply it as strictly to themselves
20:01
and when you spot something like that and you have a connection to someone like a professional one or however you should talk to them about it you shouldn't just wait for a female or whoever else artist to stand up and make people aware of that
20:24
I think I totally agree it's also about sharing good experiences so if you heard something about that a woman is featured it's about talking about it because it's an ongoing topic
20:42
Just to kind of cycle back to our introduction there is a lot of talk and buzz around this phrase techno feminism which is something that I'm personally I can't quite figure out how I feel about it because I do believe it is a conversation
21:01
that's gaining critical mass which is really important but at the same time it seems to be kind of co-opted by either by individuals or by commercial entities or by event promoters to be this kind of by-product or kind of marketing niche by which to sell their artists or to sell their events
21:21
or to sell their products I'm just curious is this something that you are all aware of like individually and do you have any feelings about how sometimes these strategies or these conversations might not have the purest intent I suppose I have to say it's the first time that I've heard about techno feminism
21:42
and I didn't know that there's like this that it's used as a marketing tool which is really bad in a way because first off feminism is sometimes some people unfortunately have this negative connection to this word and then like I don't know
22:02
I think it shouldn't be used as a tool I mean I think the phrase became popular it's the name of a party put on by a collective called Discwoman in New York and it's just I guess it's just a phrase that kind of tapped into the zeitgeist and that was easily easy to hashtag and it's just kind of like
22:20
taken on a bit of a life of its own but yeah I just was curious to know if you're aware of this term right now Smirnoff is doing a lot of actions to promote female producers and female DJs and to me it might be a marketing tool
22:41
but in the end it does have a real impact which cannot really be undermined they had an event this week earlier last week in London where female producers were invited to talk about music production learn about it play their tracks on the fabric sound system
23:00
a lot of my contacts were going and I think it's still providing a platform and many opportunities for women because if it's a large international brand that does something like this it still shows that it's an issue that needs to be dealt with and even if it's for marketing purposes in the end the result is the same people are still going to be
23:21
hearing more about the issues about sexism in the music industry and people are going to see actual options to try to put an end to it anybody else? and I wanted to kind of ask specifically about
23:40
the spaces in which electronic music is consumed like primarily clubs or festivals that kind of thing for example a friend of mine who runs a party here in Berlin called Room for Resistance they have a designated person who they kind of have a bit of a meet-up before the actual event with kind of friends and family
24:01
and say this is the designated person if you're being harassed or if someone's making you feel uncomfortable just go to them because the promoters themselves are kind of running around and generally don't have the time or the resources to be able to manage that situation so they've implemented this kind of one designated person to kind of allow people to feel
24:22
more at home is this something that you guys think is necessary because I feel like in the club space and in the event space there is this idea that electronic music is this like utopia where people come together and we're all as one but the same issues that affect society
24:42
outside of the club affect it inside the club so I don't know how do you feel about situations where behavior and how people are kind of interacting with each other and particularly interacting with women is it something that you think is necessary do you think it's too much like what's your feeling about it I would say it's necessary
25:01
because in order for people to want to join the music industry be it as an artist or as someone that works for music-related businesses if they don't feel safe in the first space they're going to see that is music-related which is a club how are they going to want to join the industry afterwards
25:27
I would like to add that the same applies to online like when you're a promoter or like an editor in this case you also like think you have to commit to the idea that you kind of have to be this like person in the comment section yourself
25:41
you know you have to at least look at it see what's going on there because often you will find male harassment in there for instance when you write about certain DJs and then you either have to interact there or support the voices who are already standing up there
26:00
and it's also like you shouldn't leave your event or your content you're putting out just on its own and think well I'm done let's go home you know you should like yeah stick to it I'd like to kind of direct a question towards you Thomas specifically about online spaces
26:20
and online content because I feel like as there's more and more awareness about discrimination and people becoming marginalized that a lot of these conversations are being taken online and there seems to be these this cycle of somebody does and says something inappropriate there is this huge kind of flare of
26:42
negative attention towards them either they'll delete their profile or they'll kind of put out a half thought apology things like that I mean I don't know I'd just be interested to know your take as somebody who's kind of managing like an online platform this kind of culture of calling out people do you think it's effective
27:01
when it comes to issues like this which is so deeply ingrained in society like what's your take on it actually it's for all of the panelists but yeah we just actually did that with Johannes Heyer who's a quite well connected and well established techno DJ
27:20
from the Frankfurt scene and use sexist language to like describe the right and the wrong techno in his eyes and since nobody was like interacting there or like was calling him out for it and no other outlet did it we did it in the end and then it kind of like sparked a discussion
27:43
he didn't delete his profile but at the same time like I don't really think like he did get the point these things are more like processes I would say I guess well it would be interesting
28:01
to hear the other participants experience in that I mean it definitely like often creates a case where like which makes like certain things visible and it feels a bit like you have to like make every mistake visible at least once so that everybody understands and then like five years later
28:21
the same circle repeats again maybe but yeah maybe it's not the best solution at all those forums which I was analyzing they don't have those administrators or those who stop them so they are there they are accessible online and there are sexist comments still online
28:43
and everybody can read them until today and I try to I don't want to name those forums but I try to write them to that hey guys I know that 98% of the forum users are male but these comments are just not okay
29:00
never got back an answer so I have exactly the opposite so when it's like online and yeah everybody can still read them so I have a bad experience on that I still think that like it's the same as having quotas it's not an ideal solution
29:20
but calling out people is also yeah it's not ideal but it's still a way to make things change a little bit quicker than they would without what I find for example like find it super important and interesting that a lot of people that are in positions of power use their voice to actually call out sexist things
29:42
one person who does it a lot is Michel Stanger from Boiler Room he's like constantly calling out people on social media but he's a person that is so influential that I think that without him like being a straight man and actually like taking position for women all the time
30:00
is something that might help as like other straight men will identify with him and think okay if he finds this inappropriate then probably I should think the same yeah I think that's a it's a good point he's really consistent about kind of taking no bullshit when it comes to those kinds of things
30:22
but I'd also like to kind of maybe ask all of your thoughts about what women or people who aren't even women actually can do in these instances because I feel like with these conversations we're talking about macro problems and micro instances either something that's kind of
30:40
like a larger conversation or when it comes down to one-to-one interactions and I think that as a woman who has worked in the music industry for a lot of years there have certainly been instances where in conversation or you know when I'm kind of not prepared or when I'm on my own something will be said to me
31:00
and not always having the foresight that classic situation of thinking of the comeback an hour later but I feel like now that this is an issue that's been so heavily identified within the music industry and within the electronic music industry like what would be your advice for particularly young people
31:20
who are in the industry or wanting to get into the industry who are dealing with these roadblocks like what should they say what should they do how should they contend with it I think like it's not the easiest way but of course like saying something and not just taking it in is super important um if you are someone who is new to the industry
31:40
who is young and who doesn't feel like you have the who don't feel like you have the confidence to do to say something I think it's really important that you speak about it maybe to someone else that you know might stand up for you and it doesn't have to be like right in the minute it might be like a week after but just messaging someone and telling them about what happened
32:01
if it's someone that they have a link to could help I mean definitely seeking support from someone more confident or powerful is definitely an option or any kind of networks for example I don't know if you do that also at the mentoring program
32:21
it's the part of it yeah I think this is if you're new to a company and you're like you're afraid of you probably doing everything right and you don't want to lose your job I think it's the smartest way to find a mentor a female woman who's working in the company and which you can ask
32:43
because sometimes it's not easy now I'm doing this for a long time now but I do remember that when you are starting a job and everything is new to you and you want to do everything right just find somebody you can trust it doesn't have to be a woman in the end
33:01
if you find somebody I mean this if you find somebody who can help you that's brilliant I remember when I was working for a label called KITIO like 15 years ago and I did this is a funny story but in the end it's not funny so I had to go to this distribution convention
33:22
and distribution is mainly by there's a lot of men in there a middle-aged white man and so I was entering the room and I said yeah hi my name is Deasy and they said oh yeah nice we have can I get a coffee from you so and I was like what
33:41
I'm going to here to present the new releases and I was shocked now I can laugh about it but at that time I would have wished that I have the confidence to say no I'm not bringing you the coffee I'm here to present the releases and sometimes it's just about jumping over your shadow and just to say no
34:01
I'm here for this I'm here because I'm this is my job this is what I'm this is my work and I'm not here because I look like you have these old-fashioned structures where do you think I'm bringing the coffee to you? Yeah I think it like
34:21
there's a lot of networks also that are made for women in a way in the music industry we mentioned female pressure before for example in mint there's also another Facebook group that is called sister and this I've seen it repeatedly being used by by young DJs or producers
34:40
who are saying so I've been put in this situation it sucks I don't know what to do or like this promoter refuses to pay me what can I do? and the group has like almost 1000 members and the thing is like whatever bad situation you're going to find yourself in there's a really high chance that someone else has experienced it has experienced it before
35:01
and that you can receive actionable solutions from your peers pretty much so I think it's really important to rely on on networks and try to join them to find help yeah absolutely and other networks like She Said So which is another awesome online platform
35:20
which has a kind of stream about letting women know about jobs that are going in the music industry I think they're a really fantastic resource for any women who are looking to continue being employed or to enter the music industry but I wanted to ask specifically Anita because I think
35:41
when we're discussing this issue of course we're coming at it from the end point where these disparities are occurring and you know women are feeling like discouraged and insulted etc etc but of course when it comes to music
36:00
these kinds of things are kind of set in stone really early on even when it comes to the development of acoustic or digital instrumentation the language used to describe music and to describe instruments that's some of the work that you've done actually everything starts right from the beginning that's how you said
36:20
because society really puts you into these gender roles right from the beginning when you are in the kindergarten and you are a girl you have to play with the dolls you have to play with the Barbies but the boys can play with the matchboxes they can build up robots they can do the gadgets
36:41
and all those things to play with but you as a girl you will be always just the smart the kind one many times there are a lot of exceptions and there are a lot of new streams and educational streams who try to really stop this whole gender perspectives and all those things what starts right from the beginning
37:00
in the kindergarten but that's how it starts this whole kind of relationship with technology generally for you to also for the female and male the boys and for the girls and later on it goes further of course because then the boys get more confident
37:21
with using any kind of technology computers and some programming and then it's like also like getting to the two directions right from the beginning and that's how what we should also change but it's gonna be the long long scale change because what we can do now is like all those things what we just pointed out here
37:41
but for like from the 10, 20, 30, 100 years that's the goal actually to change it completely because then also like in the kindergarten doesn't matter if you are a girl or you are a boy you can play with those different gadgets and why not and so on so that should be changed and we hope
38:00
I'm curious to know from any of you actually have you had any instances let me backtrack a little bit I think these kinds of discussions are really super important and valuable but sometimes I worry that it becomes a bit of an echo chamber like we're all kind of confirming each other's perspectives but when it comes to engaging with people
38:22
who inherently believe that women aren't as smart or as technical or as musical or as good have you had any instances of having to contend with somebody or to argue with somebody or try to kind of change their perspective on women and their role in music
38:42
have any of you had that kind of instance I'd love to hear about it I don't have that much experience with that luckily so I had just the basic like not on making music but more like on a computer basic set like you don't know that you don't know how it works so just like give me that
39:01
and then I know how it works so please give me back I can do that I can handle it it happens of course like every day to you but one should just I don't know handle these kind of situations but with music making I don't have experience so maybe like maybe you lucky one
39:21
or even from a DJ perspective perhaps of yeah I guess yeah but can you repeat the question sure sorry it was a long-winded question but I was saying that these kind of conversations are really important
39:40
but where our opinion on the matter is all pretty well aligned I think we all hold the same kinds of opinions but particularly for someone who works as a DJ and doing events I would imagine that you have to deal with bookers or deal with sound engineers or deal with club owners that kind of thing who just don't think that you're able to do your job as well
40:02
like how has that affected you how have you contended with that have you have you kind of felt like you were in a place to be able to challenge somebody yeah well personally speaking like all of my bad experiences have been with sound engineers because as we said like in Berlin I primarily play in Berlin
40:24
and we're quite spoiled I mean I've never in Berlin played a party where I was the only female DJing for example and I've always been booked by people who actually organize like female focus or queer events who really want me to be there in a way
40:41
sound engineers on the other hand have often implied that I didn't know how to use the equipment especially like on instances where I've had to play with a laptop and not with CDJs because they just assume I didn't know how to plug it in but this is something that can be at the beginning I must say I didn't know
41:01
how to plug in my equipment but because I was not interested in it and after a while I decided to actually learn how to do it just to make sure no one could tell me anything and that I would be prepared for any situation but yeah very often I just show up at the DJ booth and people just ask me what I'm doing there and like joke about the fact that I want to play and I'm like well actually
41:21
I'm on in a minute like it's my turn to play so yeah but I guess like if you have the knowledge like if you have enough knowledge about what you're doing which most people actually have with it comes like more confidence and then you're able to deal with these situations and just like brush them off a little bit more or like come up with good comebacks
41:42
I guess Yeah I've also noticed that when I meet people music industry people and they have their own company they are sometimes not aware that they only have like or 90 percent men in their office
42:00
so when I talk to them they're like why do you only have like men in the office they're like oh yeah shit I haven't been aware of this fact so they start to think but then the other problem occurs that when you for example like in PR companies like doing PR for labels for bands
42:21
when young women enter the job they always or like it's unfortunately it's still happening they apply for an assistant job rather than being a junior so it's about encouraging people who have a company
42:42
to encourage if young women are applying not only giving them the assistant job but support them to have a junior position In electronic music you often experience that successful female DJs like people say
43:01
well actually like they are boring DJs and they're just there because you know they're the person who they are or that when there's a young rising female producer people would say well she's not producing her stuff herself and that even like women can say that about other women too and like you're aware to challenge that
43:22
you're also like as an editor there to challenge your own writers and yourself on the language you use I remember one case where we were like my back then like another editor where I used to work was writing about female hairdresser rock
43:42
because in German like language is heavily gendered and then it was like me and another editor were like told him well you know that doesn't make sense he wouldn't do that with anything else you know you wouldn't say like this is a male painter rock or whatever
44:01
and at the same time like when you get asked for recommendations like put yourself like a stoplight in your head you know who am I recommending like when you leave the job who are you recommending you know just like like even if you don't like represent it yourself through existence and like make room for somebody behind you at least
44:20
yeah I have to add when it comes to recommendation recommendations I've always noticed so if they're like men they are easy to they support so they support each other and they they recommend a job to one of their buddies while women are always really careful
44:41
recommending other women I don't know why that is and shouldn't be like this because but I could imagine that women feel responsible if the person she has recommended is not doing the job right then she's like oh my god I recommended this person and this woman and she's not doing the job right
45:00
but I think women has to be have to be become more easy in that so they have to recommend other DJs or other people in the industry other women in the industry and not thinking of what is happening if it doesn't work out in the what they the job they're doing interesting um
45:20
I wanted to like put forward another idea as a strategy particularly going back to that statistic of women account for 45% of the kind of listenership or purchasing power when it comes to electronic music and I think sometimes these strategies can also maybe not be as effective
45:41
because they're not it's either kind of collectives which are separated geographically but I kind of am interested in this idea of women having a strategy that's based in economics like not purchasing music from a record label
46:01
that only releases male artists or not buying tickets to an event where there are none or like less than a small percent of the artists who are performing are women etc etc like what what do you guys think about that do you think that that could potentially be a strategy to force people's hand to recognize that women are important
46:22
in terms of being creators but also just being stakeholders in the scene as a whole I also I think sorry I think like more than not purchasing tickets to events when there's only men playing etc I don't see it as a really sustainable strategy
46:42
because if someone's favorite DJ is coming to town and it happens to be a man and then they wouldn't go I don't really see it happening however what I think would be more useful in a way is to actually go when there's a woman playing and go to female focus parties and to actually spread the word about about events
47:01
where women are playing and instead of having like a negative way of acting just like being positive and pushing forward the things that are already going in the right direction because if clubs the only book male DJs realize that like there's a party the same night with only women playing and that people are actually more excited about this they might actually end up
47:21
changing the behavior anybody else what I noticed in the recent month is that how important Spotify plays actually and especially this streaming service has become like many festivals are looking into these numbers first not even the Facebook numbers but the Spotify numbers
47:42
and so one thing everybody can do is you know like put the right songs and tracks in your mixtape maybe do a private session if you want to listen to your male producer you know like maybe not log out or something yeah just like we'll shift the numbers from that side because that's something
48:01
really like consumers can do and I agree it's better than like negative whatever yeah I think we're gonna have time for some questions but before we wrapped up I just wanted to ask all of the panelists what do you hope for the future what do you see for the future
48:21
do you feel optimistic about us getting to a point or getting closer and closer towards equality? I'm pretty optimistic especially because well now like it's sort of like the good side of the bad thing in a way but more and more
48:40
like female focused events are getting a lot of publicity a lot of press a lot of clubs are booking more women even if they just do it to not get called out or to actually get praise but I feel just the fact that people don't want to be called out and are trying to keep a low profile means that there might be more equality in the very near future actually
49:00
and I also feel like very optimistic about how much women help each other I feel like over the past few years they have like women in general have stopped being wanting like stop letting themselves be victimized and have decided to just like create networks and link up with people to actually show that they're more powerful than men
49:21
and that they can do the same things It's exciting times at the moment there's a lot of on all social levels there's something happening for women so I think we just be part of the movement spread the word and hopefully in I don't know 100 years as you said
49:41
they won't believe us oh we're along that then but that nobody believes that we at some point had this discussion because then it's like then we are living in an ideal world hopefully Just wanted to add some also some negative words
50:00
so that we are not only like very optimistic but yeah so we are talking about this typical European and American perspective again here that here there are a lot of discussions that are going on especially in Berlin but what's going on in the rest of the world first of all we don't know or I don't know we don't talk about that and there I can imagine
50:22
that it won't change in the next 10, 15, 20 I don't know 50 years but the hope is also there but yeah I really wanted to point out that always this thing that we are always in this European-American perspective so we should not forget about the rest of the world so what's going on there
50:40
yeah yeah the thing is like I feel like European or American women are still getting more aware of like what happens in the rest of the world the Black Madonna for example worked in this created like this mentoring project in Southeast Asia I think also have a producer friend
51:01
who's called Mina who is a white woman from London but who produces like African inspired music like lots of Kuduro for example but what she does is like she goes to Africa like to a different country every time she's been to Ghana for example and she goes tries to bring some equipment and then also has workshops
51:21
and tries to like teach young women there how to DJ and try to really like give back considering that she's taking something from them with the music she plays but she really makes a really conscious effort to give back to these people she has Black women singing on her tracks and then she which helps like bring them to Europe for dates and really like launch their careers so there's still a way to like
51:42
I'm still hopeful that people are just gonna help each other and also not only like within the circle we need definitely more of those projects okay I think we're gonna open it up to questions we have a microphone that will come around
52:01
hello thanks for the lovely talk it was really informative we just said with 45% of listeners or buyers being female I just had to thought about a vinyl resurgence with female DJs probably playing a lot of vinyls as well do you think that there's a chance in there
52:20
for young girls to discover vinyls with like electronic DJs or do you think it's like such a niche that it's like just off track thanks well personally so you're asking if the resurgence of vinyl will benefit young women is that what you mean I think it's a little bit complicated
52:41
because when you're talking about people who are DJing and then people who are DJing with vinyl I think you're also talking about a certain economic band of people who can afford to buy vinyl and I think when it comes to disseminating the technology a lot of it would have to do with digital DJing
53:03
particularly for people who aren't living in big cities or in rural areas or in like quite disadvantaged areas I think it would be fantastic but in terms of increasing the access that women have to learning how to DJ or being able to DJ out
53:21
I think the digital technology is probably going to be more of a more of a practical way for that to happen yeah does anybody else yeah and during the workshops I've been organizing the last one was hosted at Native Instruments and we could have just decided to
53:40
only let people learn with controllers but I really wanted to have them learn how to DJ with CDJs because even though very few people have CDJs at home to practice all it takes to get started is buying two USB sticks and headphones so I think that helps to lower the barrier of entry
54:00
as you said that vinyl having vinyl is not as easy as owning turntables etc is really way more complicated than just having like some mp3s on your laptop and two USB sticks
54:22
yeah thank you as well for the different perspectives on these kinds of solutions that we have I think you have numbered quite a lot of them and I see there's a lot of talk about building your own structures but it's also much about what resonates with a kind of self-accountability and I guess my question is for Thomas
54:43
because you have given such a special report on how you hold yourself and your team responsible or accountable for diverse media production and being a white male I would guess that this maybe was not always the case
55:02
so maybe you can tell us a little bit about how you managed to implement or develop this kind of self-accountability for you and your team very briefly the whole idea came with the female pressure statistics and I saw them being shared through other publications
55:22
not only the publication I was working on and that led to especially one very good publication like producing like they didn't coin it female issue but they did one special issue where they only like featured female producers and female artists in it and the next issue then like only featured male in it
55:44
somehow because there was the leftovers from the month before I think and then the issue afterwards you know it didn't like really I mean it's the same with DJ MEC which he coined out early they also like have one female issue every year and then like they do the 25 male faces of the electronic music scene
56:01
you know and the other 100 and I saw that and I well I was confused and then I thought okay maybe like maybe that's the same with me you know maybe with the site I'm running and then I like pulled the numbers for half a year and put them out online
56:21
and yeah I mean it turned out that our numbers were slightly better but not like significantly and since then it's like something I always like have in mind and like look for at least once a month yeah and then discuss with my people when you say you put it online did you publish it or? I did publish it back then yeah I don't do it now
56:42
but like I can share these numbers whoever requests them yeah but yeah I think we're actually out of time now yeah we're down to one minute so I'd love to say thank you to our panelists to Desi, Thomas, Anita and Camille and also a bit of a shout out to GMM
57:05
which is the organization that allowed us to participate in this talk today and thanks to all of you for sticking around and to Lorenz Grunewald who just asked us because he helped us a lot in the organization so thank you so much also Lorenz
57:20
thanks to you for hosting