Hello everybody, I think I will put this headphone because there is a bit of interference with the other room

So it's a nice experiment for me Because I never spoken in this way, but so it's kind of interesting. We will have kind of telepathic Connection one with each other and I hope you can hear me well and of course I hope also that we will have a great interaction at the end of my talk because I

Mean for me is really important to know also your point of view and also what you think about all these subjects So first of all, I would like to introduce myself Of course, I've been already slightly deeply introduced by

the Republica team that actually I thanks for this invitation and I would like to say that I Am a kind of hybrid person because I'm coming from different backgrounds and from one side I've been working as part of the hacker Community in Italy and also being interested in the discovering gates in Berlin since 10 years

And I've been down these Bots working as a curator, but also as a researcher But at the same time for me being a researcher a curator Had always a specific meaning and this meaning was to try to investigate

Critically media practices and see in which way they could be connected at the same time with art but also Social politics and of course when I speak about politics, I'm not speaking about the usual party politics This is a tradition that we bring along with us

Coming from Italy but politics for us means also to have an attitude connected to Experiencing society and culture Critically and so this is a bit of what I've been Accompanying me in all these years and I've been recently published two books

So one books is called Disrupting business that are being co-edited together with Jeff Cox and another book is called network disruption and This is a bit of the book that I'm going to speak and present today and also something that you will freely download hopefully from the internet if you find this

Interesting so I will go on by Briefly tell you that so this is the main scheme. I'm referring to and we will go back to these later I'm just briefly Explaining that so I'm not somebody that is coming from a business school. So I'm not a business

Person, but I'm interested in Understanding what the business concept mean apply to arts and culture and so I Am referring specifically to the concept of Disruption innovation that has been developed by Clayton Christensen of the Harvard Business School in the 90s

And this concept meant To deal with the process that disrupt the markets in an expected way and also to generate a product that the market does not expect and so these Concept is something that I'm bringing directly to what I refer

with the arts and hacking so we will go back to this kind of scheme after The talk and so I started from the beginning. This is me in 1999 when I was Attending a hack meeting in Italy. There was really a great time

We in which we believed a lot about cyber utopia as the idea of the computer to the people and also fighting to Think about Technology as a tool to empowering society and politics and so in Italy This is really long tradition that of course

Comes also way before as a form of criticism related to art and culture and politics But in the 90s, we started really to develop something that was related To cyberpunk utopias and also to the idea of cyber rights as a tool for freedom

But then what happened? In 2001, maybe some of you have experienced What I also experienced that was many demonstration that happened from 2000 2001 starting in 1999 with Seattle demonstration related to the fight against power and

You know politics in the g8 context and this is an image that come from the Genoa g8 in 2001 and Unfortunately, I have to see that for me. This has been a really critical experience Even if I was not in Genoa as many people that actually was got really the worse. I was in Florence

Running with some people of the strano network Collective and independent radio and we were connecting directly with the radio gap That was the radio that was reporting what was happening. And so I assisted as many people live

When the police is looked inside the media center and was actually something that's was from one side Really making the movement reflect. What are we actually doing is really these the right Parts we are taking because the idea was really to be frontal have an antagonistic

approach And trying also to fight this enemy Trying to assault the red zone and these kind of things and to be sincere for me these these are really speaking personally was a sort of a failure because at the end we end up Doing the game of the police and so I was really

Wondering is this the right strategy that actually we should bring along or maybe there are different strategy that we could reflect upon and so from one side I think the Genoa 2001 was a big big blow for the movement but was also a starting point because there were many other groups that started independently after that time and

Also many other collectives that really resorts what they were doing and my special my particular experience Here, I think the pink color is not so strong but has been trying to Reflect on different kind of practices since I found the kind of new hope in the pink and the queer movements

trying to Reflect on strategy that are not just confrontational and oppositional but strategies that are really trying to be Transversal and fluid and also somehow to disrupt the system from within

Trying really to work with identity in a way that is critical and also questioning. What is identity? questioning the dialectic as a political struggle and Also, this is not Something completely new because in Italy there has been a long tradition Related to this kind of attitude that this kind of practice and so I always really like to bring in the context

I am the image of Luther Blissett. I don't know if You are really familiar with that but Luther Blissett has been a multiple name that people were starting to adopt around middle of the 90s and

The idea was that everybody could become Luther Blissett this image that is the portrait of Luther Blissett was Basically creating by morphing different other image and so is a fictional identity It's somebody that is that people could appropriate and also embody

to try to somehow disrupt the system from within and what many people were trying to do was really to Apply the idea of a fake plagiarism also Disruption inside the media system because often Luther Blissett was creating some

Pranks that were really directly going to interfere with what journalists were doing. What's politician were doing? Really try to demonstrate that actually media Are a construction and if you understand that if you understand the logic of them, then you can really try to Somehow detour the logic also coming back to

Kind of avant-garde the perspective and so at the same time there is also another part of history that I like To quote here because also Luther Blissett has not been the first there has been also other example before like the New East

Network and the research project that started in 1779 In Canada a Montreal and then also spreads all over Europe for example, so here in Berlin. There are been many new Easter really active and Neoesma was also something that was referring to the idea of creating a multiple identity and this was Montecansin and at the same

Time going in u.s. There have been another really interesting disruptive If you want movement or basic or better parody religion That was the Church of the subgenius

And so I have here also another icon that was familiar for many at the end of the 70s during the 80s That is Bob Dobbs. That is the also an icon Representing a way to disrupt the system and in this case also through rituals And as I say a part of the religion and so

I'm still back a bit on this story and we could say that also Many of these projects were interpreting networking as a collective participation That was coming from grassroots movements and I often show this image. That's is a image

Created by the postal artist Vittore Baroni The name is organic tree made in 1992 and it was ready speaking about the idea of networking As a practice that was involved in many postal artists around the world. They were exchanging

Materials postcards stamps and many other Do-it-yourself projects and this kind of tradition is also coming directly from other avant-garde like flukes oohs the situation is the futurism the

visual poetry But in that time in the 90s many people trying to create networking by using the media that at that time were Really Used as a tool of expression and also do it yourself and so for example, we have

Photocopiers computer phone fax video cassettes. I mean, I'm sure you remember that and happen then Something else that I will define my second big blow that is the coming of web tool and

I explained it why because from one side web 2.0 in 2004 change completely The idea of referring to networking. I mean many of new of you know and also There's been a really positive outcome of that because much more people know know how to deal with networking What networking is and we are we are all much more connected

But at the same time also we have to say that is a completely different idea of social networking in respect of what we were actually thinking about in the past and is an idea of social networking that is pretty Centralized because of course is mainly controlled by

Different companies and so I mean for some of all your view would be something great for other would be actually something to question Especially now trying to reflect on the discourse of surveillance and also privacy I think already now we are Experiencing something that actually many people coming from the hacker culture already knew long time ago

so has been not really a surprise for people active in the hacker culture to know that you are constantly surveilled and So what did I do? I Understand what is actually coming from this idea of networking

Really connected with business and the idea also of a centralization of network practices and in which way we can Really understand the networking as a disruptive business And so I went to San Francisco and to Silicon Valley I was doing a visiting scholarship at Stanford for some months and I met

Some men interesting people there, that's Actually told me that I mean this idea of you know hacking completely Disconnected from business is a bit of a utopia That's many European people have but is absolutely not what so many people in the u.s

Think when for example a lot of history of hacking has been completely Intervene with the one of business if we sink the how the Silicon Valley develop Even as the first BBS developed and so if you remember this the history of the home brew computer crab for example

so I met also Fred Turner there that so we had a lot of interesting conversation related to the shift between counterculture and cyber culture In California and so he actually explained me that so we are speaking more about a layering here

He's not an opposition, but he's a layering that means that many people are actually doing things that are not Contradicting themselves, but they do at the same time and the burning man is really an example of that I don't know if you ever been there is really big gathering of people once a year during

August in the desert of Nevada and so this for me has been a real interesting example because Fred was connected the burning man with Google in in his speech really reflecting on the fact that that's a Gathering like that. So it is actually really functional today to the ethos of Silicon Valley

Because there are many companies going there. It's actually a big business because You know, you have to pay kind of high tickets There are like 50,000 people even more now that go and each of them pay more than 100 Dollars tickets and so you can imagine that is a big business. Of course, there is a lot in infrastructure

But at the same time, you know It's also something that grew exponentially from the first experience that were pretty disruptive like the cacophony Society or the suicide club that are being really the one Establishing a bit the idea of burning man. And so what the Fred was telling me

By looking at burning man actually is an example that now business is really working with disruption because from one side Is empowering a community but from the other is completely, you know, creating a revenue from that and

so In that sense of burning man is a career example also I would say many people working on Google go there also many people working at the Silicon Valley because it's a moment of freedom That people can experience but also is a big moment of networking for Silicon Valley companies, so I develop something and going back to my

Scheme here, that's I call the art of disrupting business And so I say maybe wish it would change your structure which and also change the political perspective Because to be antagonistic or positional for me doesn't work anymore because we have been already

Understood that's a business are upper as Appropriated a lot rhetoric that was really pretty used by hackers in the 90s And so instead of being confrontational that is actually I think is something you just lose your battle

It's better start to be Disruptional and what I'm speaking about is a model in which from one side artists are trying to disrupt business by Working on the system from between and at the same time also business is creating disruption by creating

Also innovation. So this is my disruptive feedback loop That's I'm going also to explain now with the difference Example and involves Directly in different layers artists hair corruptive is entrepreneurs and also networkers So one example that I also like to bring is of course

Napster and I think Napster has been a great example of a disruptive innovation because in 1999 really introduced the idea of file sharing in a way that becomes kind of massive because the people really trying

interpret the music industry in a different way So I think that's a Napster that was also really accepted a lot from the hacker community at the beginning I think is really showing how this layer layer of Perturbance is actually working and then I don't know if Stalman would be happy that I say that but I think also

GNU Linux as an operative system has been really also a disruptive technology because Introduce in the market completely something that the market didn't expect and really disrupt What in the time was the windows and Apple?

business but how do we connect these with the artistic practices and in My book, I'm trying to analyze different Concept and also different case studies that are all working with the idea of disruption So from one side they are disrupting the business because they are interfering with that and from the other

I'm actually analyzing a project that create business by making disruption and So I can also give you a specific example then if you are interested you can easily download my book from the internet, but two

Example that always like us to bring The seppuku Artistic project and also Anna Damolo, so I start first with seppuku Seppuku was developed by the Italian collective Lelien's invisible

Especially Jonathan Quintini and Clementa Pestelli in collaboration with the design group of park of Yellowstone And was something that they launched in 2009 the first presented at the share festival in Italy and then also transmediale and Their idea was really to try to understand our Facebook work and especially what is behind the code

When you create your login inside the system And they were really working on this tension between the open and closed nature of social media and also trying to work on this unpredictable Consequence that are generated by disruptive use of it

so basically by doing your login you are going to inside the seppuku and You could create your virtual suicide. So seppuku is actually a Japanese Virtual suicide Actually physical suicide

That means you have to cut your belly and has been also used by the Luther Brissett project in 1999 when they declare the ends of the project so they took again this kind of practice and they say we should all create Our suicide in Facebook and this became really viral So there were many people that were doing that and was interesting because they were really using

And appropriating the code of the login of Facebook But at the same time when you were committing your suicide basically, you were canceling yourself from Facebook and Also, you were receiving a high score more suicide of people you were managing to

Create that were following you and the the question was really I'm actually really able to leave my virtual world with Facebook and At the end, of course Was kind of easy way Of trying to reflect on that in the sense that I think also this was intelligent from by their sides

Because they say okay, you can create your seppuku But then if you want to go back, you know, you can you just do login again? You are back in Facebook So for them was not really the problem the point of disrupting completely Facebook but they wanted to make people reflect on what to use Facebook means and

Also, what means to create friendship in Facebook how you can use the code of Facebook and Of course they receive from Facebook a sea sentences letter and The things went on for a kind of long time Another example that I like to bring you is the Anna Damolo

Project and so they were also coming from Italy and working especially in that time like 2008 2009 and Basically Anna Damolo is the acronym of Onda Anomalos that's in English could be translated with the anomalous wave and was a movement of different students that were protesting against

cuts of education research That's actually was a phenomenon that is still happening but became really Massified During that time so there were a lot of protests not only in Italy but also around Europe and the world and so

So they created somebody there was a fictional identity these Anna Damolo that you can see on the screen Anna Damolo Also is trying to reflect on what means the idea of creating a visual

character that could be used To become Viral and also could be appropriated by people not refusing the fact of being Facebook But really trying to understand how Facebook works and trying to turn it to your own advantage So they created something that was appropriated by a lot of students

We had both the graphic logo of Anna Damolo and also the different You know morphing image that created a real person that people use to turn Back their profile of Facebook into Anna Damolo and people were claiming Anna Damolo is the new ministry

Of Minister of Education University and research and we are occupying the ministry At the moment and so they created also the basement of the website And so we're allowing people to leave

different messages by using a telephone line that they also Build up and from these different messages of the experience of the people being Anna Damolo They created us a book that was published in 2009 So why I'm speaking about that because I think that some all these projects

really are Explaining as something Kind of specific so that is possible to disrupt system from the inside especially trying to Look for the holes and the vulnerability of these systems. So I'm here having a quote of a really interesting book from

Canadian researcher Richard Day that wrote this Book names Gramsci is dead and is writing there will be always holes even when there are no longer any margins and I think that is a bit the

Form of disrupting bees and I'm speaking about so really trying to reflect what are actually the holes that we could infiltrate and which sense what are the different experience a intervention that we could imagine by really understanding how technology work by Understanding what is the code behind the interface?

So when the anonymous came I was of course really happy because I think that's this was exactly showing That's a certain. I don't know if people were really familiar with Luther Blissett or Monte can seen and the newism but for me somehow these

different entity that you cannot even call a movement was Replicating some of this strategies by really reflecting On the vulnerability of system and also the discourse of anonymity That was a really important aspect of these previous

practices that I told you and then So the question for me becomes It's really important to be effective in politics in culture and also in the media struggle and I think that's Maybe we should also question what what is the

Effectiveness dialectic because I don't think this works anymore And this makes us really an easy target and I think we learn from Luther Blissett from newism And they all were saying is really hard to see and its roots and so by seeing questioning What is the truth then you have to really?

Try to create new formal strategies that could disrupt the system And I'm also bringing you another example This is a project. That's I was creating a trans Mediale 2013 and has been developed by the telecommunist and collective by and by Ramla bore Berlin and

also by a huge network of postal artists This was called octo p7c1 and was a pneumatic system That's we created by connecting different station inside the house the culture and the wealth

Was something that the column telecommunist and also call the official miscommunication platform of trans Mediale 2013 by following their idea of miscommunication and I think in this idea of Miscommunication in the fact that you can really question a system from the inside but also being playful and ironic

There is also the answer. I was looking for and this specific project. Maybe I just described you briefly was something like a reflection of a social network system, especially The idea was that there was a corporation octo that was trying to imagine a worldwide pneumatic

Post-system that was connecting different households and we were doing like the beta testing at trans Mediale by connecting the different rooms of The house their culture and their wealth and so was really a centralized system because there was a main station and different Peripatric station and you could the exchange the

capsules that were traveling inside the pipes By really, you know administrating this station But was also really if you want a quick system over Opposition project because was from one side dealing with closeness of system from one side with openness and

the idea of openness was related to the presence of the male artist because Vittore Baroni this postal artist that I mentioned before connected the collected a lot of presence of many postal artists around the world that actually sent to us a capsule and this capsule that could travel around the inside the

Pipes could be open and inside there were some instruction that the people the visitor could perform So was also an interesting interpretation of how to perform something that is traveling inside the closed system and I was also really happy when the last the cows computer club

There were some people that went on with this project and they created a new version of that that was completely open distributed and Also based on the do-it-yourself idea That they call side and stress probably if you have been at the CCC Congress you have seen that so I would like to finally to

Conclude with two examples. I mean one example that also sinker is really interesting in this kind of discussion on how to learn to be Pervasive and now to understand that Reality is made of different layers is the work of Trevor Paglin and we have been collaborating recently

in a panel after us Mediale that I was curating together with Jake Applebaum and also Laura Poitras and specifically in their discourse of art as evidence and also in the discourse of the the photos that Trevor does

Of drones there is the idea that actually art could become a tool for evidence But at the same time reality is not something that you just can't see from one perspective But there are really many perspective you can work with and this is actually a fault of drones

and you don't see them, but they are there and That is why I think the example of travel is really along this line Because he's really showing you that's maybe what you can do is try to reflect on the unproductivity of reality and Also on the fact that there are different layer of interpretation and this layer of interpretation

Interpretation are not so far away from you, you know, they are on the sky and if you have different eyes You can actually see them So how is possible to disrupt the system from within by understanding really how the system work? You can see what is around us with different eyes and also understanding that art could be a form of evidence

So this is my new project that I just tell you briefly because I mean I just launching it now Is a disruption network lab and I'm planning to be active in the next months hopefully years

at the Y art house in Berlin and Reflecting on really how to create a Curatorial program but also a hub of research and practice related to the idea of disruption that I'm speaking about How to create a coexistence of opposition and now actually to invite people that are really questioning the truth

Because I think that's you know truth is something that could be see from really different angles and There is always somebody that has actually more resources to flow to force the truth on you

This is also something the meet recliner always says by speaking on venture communism and so maybe instead of really trying to have a truth that is more truth of the truth of People that have power you should really question what the truth is and question by

Understanding how to create different layer of interpretation So I just conclude by saying that if you are interested in this subject You can go to that website where there are my different books and you can download them and Yeah, I enjoy and thanks a lot. And also I hope you have a really interesting questions

Yeah, thank you Tatiana. Are there any questions in the room?

Don't be shy. Yes Hi, thank you for your talk. You said that art alters businesses by interfering with them Can you can you just specify specify this a little bit more?

Is it is it like entering the DNA of businesses and and how do businesses react to them? I mean, I Think when I speak about that as I say I'm referring to the idea of Disruptive innovation, so the idea of introducing in the market something that the market doesn't expect and

If you go back on the history of art, especially the avant-garde this is exactly the strategy that the avant-garde were making really working with the unexpected with the unpredictable and try to disrupt the system from within and I think Also, we had had a really great Example during these days with the keynotes

Opening of the yes, man, because I think since many years now because they have been really active in the net art scene They have been questioning the discourse of business by Interfering with it because they really understand how it works

I mean they know how to infiltrate because they study the logic of it and at the same time they understands How to work with your identity with your perception of yourself In trying to enter the mechanism of business, so it's more like a strategy, you know I'm not I have not a recipe for the successful business here because as I say, I'm not a business person

But I think that business especially today Really show how to be pervasive and you know, I think even the social networks Companies and webto is really showing us how to do that

You mean trying to use something that is disrupting a market that we know But it's also something that business has been dying since down doing since many years if you think about you know the advertisements agency There have been a constantly cycle of a reappropriation also of the so-called

Counterculture in the 60s and so my point of view is, you know, this is nothing new Reappropriation is something that always happen but business change because now Is became a really flexible pervasive and is also actually working a lot with openness do-it-yourself

Social networking, so I'm telling the people doesn't make sense anymore just to be antagonistic Because you know, there have been somebody that have been faster than us So I think actually you should do the other way around trying to appropriate business So it's not some matter of language For example when I was speaking with a lot of activists at the beginning they really didn't like my work

you know because I was coming from a tradition of More antagonistic practices and they didn't like I use the word business I say why you have to use the word business to speak about Radical artistic practices. We don't like this word

And then I was saying actually that is why I'm using it because I think that we should start also appropriating The language that we are dealing with and so actually what is business and if you go into the etymology of the The world then you see that actually business has a really different connotation because business means being busy

Being somebody that is constantly trying to achieve something and that has to do with anxiety with Really, you know trying to do something all the time. So I was not immediately Something to do with economy. And so I think okay, maybe we can also start

Reflecting on this specific word and when with Jeff Cox with published this anthology They are really interesting contribution Like for example Franco Berardi beef or is saying I think I mean he really demonstrating how nasty could be the word business if you really bring it on yourself and

Trying to imagine that actually we are now working all the time because also when we use a social medium We are working, you know, because there is somebody that is making a profit from our relationship So there are really a lot of layers of interpretation and I'm also coming from more kind of situation is Situationistic approach in which I think that's not only media but also

Language is not neutral. So and I think business really Taught us that because all the at the first web to all convention. I went I remember there was one in 2004 year in Berlin And also there was Tim O'Reilly. They were really speaking about hacker culture. That was like what how is possible?

I mean for me was really something that was coming from another perspective because I was coming from Italy, you know And we always say that hacking was something else So that is why I say wait a second maybe have to start going back here and understand it that this kind of discourse is made of different layers and

Then trying to bring it back to the community and coming from and also trying to see if there could be people that could Be inspired by this way of seeing the reality, you know But there is also not something that I invented that is really as I say a long tradition of artistic Practices that are dealing with that

I just I am just advocating that there will be even more because I think that the idea of the truth as a unicorn realistic concept is actually really dangerous because you could be really attacked by somebody that claim that has a Bigger truth than yours and more powerful and there is always somebody that is more powerful than you

so I think instead of being in this dialectic maybe it's better to go outside of that and trying to enter the system of What you're trying to criticize from the inside?

Any other questions or additions inspirations? Yeah, thank you for the talk I was I was wondering if you feel that this strategy is more likely to be adopted in certain cultures or if you feel it's like a very You know if some cultures and scenes are more open to it like

Geographically, I don't know because I mean in my research. I was really trying to map different Prospective and then of course that there was a limit because I could not investigate You know too much and of course, I'm missing a lot of perspective coming more from Asia

other country the South's But I would say that so there is a really interesting dialectic between Like the history of net culture in Europe and what it was in u.s But still these things are speaking, you know, because I think they actually feed each other and I was also having an interesting

conversation with Jacob Obama about that because he was the one that Really suggests me the idea of the mutual feedback loop when in 2009 He was working. I mean it was part of the noise bridge collective of San Francisco And he was telling me that actually, you know

A lot of hackerspace is not noise bridge that was really particular because was more coming from kind of European tradition of you know anarchism and also politics Were actually in us supported by

Microsoft Google and initially I thought wow always possible hackers are actually Happy to get money from Microsoft and Google. Actually, I'm not here in this conventional support by Microsoft. So I don't know but You know, I think that's maybe we should go So beyond this way of thinking because maybe doesn't matter anymore, you know, and what they were telling me was

At least in this discussion You know, I mean many hackerspaces especially one in Mountain View that so You know, I don't know if still existing probably. Yes, it's called hacker dodge Oh, they were telling me but we don't have no problem to get this money

At least we can also be free to do what we want So there is a really different perspective there Instead I would say in outer space in Italy at least the one coming from more political tradition would have always Refused to have money from Microsoft to Google But personally I think that this way of antagonistic

perspective Doesn't bring anywhere So I think that instead we should more work on the interferences of these different cultures And that is why I'm questioning what is business disruption and actually seeing as I say paradoxically that we should learn from business in a way

Can be really effective and pervasive Yeah, thank you again Tatiana for this detailed input again Take the chance to to ask or to give us some more ideas about Hacktivism hacker culture

Thank you very much for your speech was really interesting What I miss is Who is the enemy? I assume you don't accept the word enemy because you're talking about disruption But what is then the final goal? Who who take advantage from this disruption and who?

Who is? affected by it Now as I say, I don't think we should think about in time of enemy anymore because this is again the way of working with politics and culture and technology that is completely Dialectic and I think this form of you know antagonism. I hope I demonstrate

Doesn't work anymore nowadays and so I don't know actually who could benefit of these I can see that there are many Artists that's already using the idea of disruption and it's actually something that's really proper of the hacker

Ethic because all the hackers have been always working by trying to disrupt the system from within Trying to opening up the system Trying to understand what is inside I mean the cause the the so-called hands-on perspective of hacker culture So, you know from one side is not something new

It's just something that I think maybe we should acknowledge and trying to also experience directly By embodying it and so so is a and there is a from one side an artistic Input that I'm giving but from the other side I can also tell you that a lot of business company are actually working with disruption already because is

Is a concept that comes from business is really I mean the basic of how many? Advertisement agency work or so startups So I'm also don't think I'm saying something new for many companies that are here and has been also recently

invited in Italy last year from to a To actually speak with people that are doing business I mean I was invited from the Omnicom Media Group that is an advertisement Company that is worldwide and there is a section of it in Italy and they were really interested in these things

They told me how we really want to know what do you think about business disruption? Can you tell us your point of view because we work on disruption by you know referring to products in fact the companies that were there where You know, there was the barilla the clinic I mean

Renoir really companies that are selling products and initially I was wondering okay. I don't know if What I'm actually bringing there is something that they will be really interested but then by having a dialogue with them I understood that it was the case because I could also see what was on the other side of the

Coin and also have a really interesting dialogue with people that are doing something Coming from a different perspective, but still we are speaking about similar concept So in that sense, I say we should work by bringing Oppositions together and trying to highlight coexistence of oppositions and then in that sense, I think

You know, of course then you decide what is your enemy is it more a personal? Interpretation of that so but I think that at the same time It's also something that's you know, it's more related to Your specific background but in the more bigger picture that I'm presenting

I'm also thinking that we should go beyond this antagonistic structure of Power contra power because I think was already demonstrated in many situation that then at the end you end up Doing the game of the people you want to oppose

So I think some other question or we go to get a coffee Okay, if there aren't any further questions I

Would like to thank you Tatiana again for her very inspiring Talk. Thank you