Data in international development: How even the best of intentions can pave the road to surveillance

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Data in international development: How even the best of intentions can pave the road to surveillance
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The use of technology in development and humanitarian work is seen as the solution to many of the world's most pressing issues around poverty reduction, allowing international organisations to deliver services efficiently where they are most needed. But increasingly, development projects in the "Information Communication Technology for Development (ICT4D) space may involve the indiscriminate collection of data, which can have all sorts of unintended consequences.
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is good son was a blow smoke from so we are here at stage 3 was also but session and this about dumb uh is about data international development and Tom how even the best of intentions can pave the road to variants and I'm the both from ladies over here at the house of man from UK and Don Mbeki's from New York and and I'm very happy to have them here on State 3 and so yeah I know I I I'm really looking forward to your previous session so and I think you also you dorsal OK the whole community 2nd that and then yeah mustard that of story K. 1 but can you think of yes yes and NIH right on detecting so we have an mining sorry we're going of not data in international development how even the best intentions can pave the road to surveillance and so I so we can get started with this we have premise and what information is a more effective tool in the hands of the strong than in the hands of the and so in this case of international development that's the the weak the Vogel communities that from the poorest regions of the world the strong being the rich countries in carrying out the international development and projects and so how we came to this I work in open development so that's kind of between the open movement and international development and what's the acknowledge Fundación developed initiatives and and earlier this year I went to and the interest of steering meeting of the what the global standard around a transparency called the International Aid Transparency Initiative and from 3 days I was amazed that and this is the these are the people who who to set the standard for how which government should be publishing then a data so how old they are giving money to poorer countries and of the whole 3 days those 1 panel on privacy and ethics and to the people about this while we talking about the kind of risks that could be coming from this the most people's response was that's that's not problem to deal with that's not what we should be talking about we should be having updates any controls all available for people to to deal with that was kind of slacked off in my head is the potential risks and my name is Becky and in my work I mostly focus on privacy issues as they relate to all of the other issues in the world which include development and recently I we notice that there's been a lot of great conversations and brainstorming within the development field on that has begun ask fundamental questions about the ethics of data collection and data which we all need for various purposes how can it be on its used how does that open up our roads to unintended consequences and for me this work becomes meaningful when we assess set within a an important area of work like this and so I guess we should start with this fundamental question which we often take for granted in this day and age we often assume that more information is better I on the other hand the data and information are not exactly the same thing I data is the wrong things that we collect through various devices and processes and information is meaningful things that we use to glean insights and do work and uh it seems like we should still ask the fundamental question wiry collecting data in the 1st place the and if we are talking about data collection maybe we should start by establishing this overall framework in which we can call them the data life cycle and the 1st part of the 1st part of his life cycle begins with collections so this is collection takes place in a number of various ways it can be because the researcher is out in the field of harm and they're during primary field work it can happen through the passive collection from devices of people who don't even know that is happening to them it happens there also sorts of different kinds of capacity-building worked out in the fields of processing refers to what happens to the data once it has been collected initially I'm and so this includes basically anything that happens from the point that this data enters a database but does it stay in the database does it get analyzed and correlated with other databases does this data then get passed on to 3rd parties and finally dissemination this is the sharing of the data so those 3rd parties how are they using the data and and as you open up this life cycle to further uses what could possibly happen down the line yes as so some of the ways in which data is collected in international development compute to deliver services more efficiently tonal communities you can see the screen for example refugee camps and their helps a lot to know how many people that what their needs are coming in and patterns that emerging around that and this is increasingly there are transparency accountability requirements and laws and regulations in donor countries and such as the transparency initiative I mentioned earlier and again increasingly big data that is becoming a buzzword within development and and those things uh such as resemble climate change analysis and various development issues they're trying to be addressed by analyzing huge amounts of data so long as we're coming through this life cycle of data and we ask words things currently being handled underground by various groups whether it's an geos on large aid agencies governments anyone who's working on the ground and we come to a
number of different questions from there and currently it seems like many recipients of aid projects and can often be pourtrayed as passive data of our subjects data subject as a term within the EU Framework for a data protection and it's sort of alludes to this relationship where and you become data through some process outside of yourself outside of your own agency perhaps and this can in some ways perpetuate the traditional relationship in 8 where you have a recipient and then the organization that is bestowing services upon the recipient of and so in all these situations consent there's no clear guidelines for what it means to say yes you can take this data you can take a picture of me you can report this fundamental information about me but in some cases data is implicit in some cases it's explicit in some to in some cases it's continued active consent in other cases there was no consent whatsoever but then it was applied somewhere down the line in a donor's report that they did in fact obtain consent all so privacy rights there is no universal framework yes the UN has a shrine enshrined privacy as a human right on the other hand the way that privacy is interpreted is highly contextual and varies from uh both by geography as well as other types of context that finally this is a bit more fundamental and so data and privacy are really difficult sets of issues to understand for anyone and I have if you look at the whole world there's still a fairly small privileged group that does have all of the knowledge and skills required to make an informed decision makers about data and so basically we would say that there is still a fairly broad lack of knowledge about how data and privacy work together and don't and so just to kind of that contextualize this event when we talk about international development with broadly talking about efforts made a little to alleviate poverty and and inequality and generally this is measured through economic indicators such as and GDP per head of a capital all social indicators such as inequalities so when we talking through all this this is an international development efforts that are in theory I have this primary aim but doesn't see sometimes they don't always do that for a
while and in in social development of been conventionally as in traditional in the way that development being carried out traditionally there's this kind of a quite strong hierarchy of edge get rich and countries will development act is coming to a community a Borel a kind community and they are the beneficiaries of a is very 1 way and the flow of resources of money of knowledge and as far as things have been going in this kind of relates to the the way the best most of what they data subjects in or any of the the the data subject also that H subject to the 8 beneficiary as we call it in international development and an example of this is a really good example of this can be seen from the project was carried out in 2 thousand 2 between 2002 and 2006 listening project and and it was it involved and of a grief if people traveling around the world to over 20 aid recipient countries just listening to people who had been on the receiving side of age and they weren't doing it with a motivating have to collect things to satisfy funders altered to measure impact or anything like that was just the 1st project for that kind of thing has happened and then they took to over 6 thousand people who use received international assistance and and 1 of the main things that they were the main themes I got from this book was that I am people's people telling stories of aid agencies against area as questions and then disappeared yeah this was clearly the aid beneficiaries becoming data subject and then we know they were trusting the people who came to the communities you in some cases promised that the projects would take place that the lighter get better in certain ways and then they dissipate or they came and they took fairy tales and then they saw the status on the front pages of international organizations reports a year later and then this is just just 1 example of and within international development and date is largely used within the ICT for Dean movement and international information and communication technologies for development and there's lots and lots lots of examples of this as just a few that mobile technologies banking and getting health advice from you know other countries from doctors that a faraway city mappings sending in an information about your community by text message to a class on a platform that you he for example and delivery of services by have by by metrics collects data collection that's 1 will be going into that will later on does mention ready be data analysis on and development issues the and
so big data as has already had mentioned it's very generalized it's there an imprecise term referring to large datasets and each science and and uh yeah so then in social development over the past 15 years has been largely framed around the Millennium Development Goals which are have 2015 as the target year so the moment of the people the talking about and the price trend that was going to happen place 2015 what would it will the new goals being and there's a there's recently been uh a UN panel that takes on the data revolution and that's what to talk about the past 2015 data which and so this term Big Data is sound something we probably heard a bit too many times at this point but if we were to try to give it a definition it's I basically the collection of lots and lots of sets of of data pieces that are then aggregated and correlated and often with the goal of a reading of particular patterns from this new amazing exciting amount of information that would have been possible in a different day and age without these technologies that we have now and so there's a lot of excitement in interest around this idea that we can now not only determine patterns based on what we have now and but actually make predictions and therefore this on this field of predictive analytics and and predictive analytics does definitely hold some interesting comments and there is a UN a UN I body that focuses on this issue it's for the UN Global Pulse and the idea is that if they can collect and use some of the data that they already have together they could not prevent certains crises in the future they could predict at all what the effects of the drought might be in a certain geographic area they can do pretty important work with this if they figure out how to glean insights from this new mass of data and so not just the UN is interested in this possibility there's lots of other agents in the field of and that are involved in taking this promise of more data and seeing what it can be applied to the contour is just 1 company for example and whose premise is that with the use of this aggregated and correlated data they can come build a more resilient and secure society this is something that they repeat many times and so 1 area for example that they're very active in is in human trafficking and we will talk more about human trafficking later and and if we're talking about principles that can carry across all of these projects do no harm is 1 that comes up over and over again it's this premise that not only is enough to think about how you can mitigate harms once you're out in the field and carrying out a program it's it requires you to think through all of this before you actually go out into the field so basically taking all the considerations of what it means to work with a marginalized populations that has a very vulnerable forms of data being and put 3 different systems and really asked them what it would require to use this data ethically and this goes beyond simple digital security were collection practices it's a bit larger than that of yeah and I already alluded to the problematic and nature of consent in all of this work but basically there are many different levels of consent and and I would argue that almost no 1 uses the Internet these days is ever really expressing substantive active consent we all know consent as a little check box that you like at the bottom of the service before you decide to use it and then from that point forward whatever happens your data you leave to the of words company were hopefully onto a body of law that will take that ends up uh make sure that it is being used appropriately but in any case and in many of these cases that we discussed there may be no notion of consent and all border it'll be implicit and so 1 area that is seen a lot of DTs 8 of the moment by matrix I that the and so by metrics are generally a technology that allows for greater precision in verification and was never before possible answers the premise and and we do that by collecting iris scans of conference and this is being used in many different parts of the world both in the global south and areas where development agencies are very active as well as a in the north and societies where we would think that's uh such invasive forms of identification on this and this is just an example and the UN UN H C is the UN body that deals with uh refugees and they're very very active on social media and so so this in in January I was a little bit shocked that they were using on 590 thousand refugees and that this is actually really have welcomed untreated and will be treated in Sec congratulations of that source and use neglected so much data on on refugees and it's true that in lots of cases it does and enable more efficient delivery of services and 1 of these cases is in enjoyed and so on when Syrian refugees initially crossed over to Jordan when they were crossing into refugee camps they were asked to give up their identity documents that paper documents to show that they had red registered in the camp and as the number of refugees continued and continued that the filing system in the refugee camp was completely overwhelmed in and and it meant that uh there were 180 thousand documents belonging to members of more than 76 thousand families and held at this refugee camp which is a huge number it took 15 staff members months months to make sure sorted through and accurately and not managed and then given back to the right people so now what they do is our when when Serena Fiji's get to the refugee camp that iris scans a take and and with that they are given access to future to water to free health care and they can even access and cash at cacheability ATM in the refugee camps data stand back iris scans and they get the cash that they are entitled to and and this is great because it avoids risk of theft of the documents that means if they left their houses and if they have to leave things in a hurry they don't have to rely on paper documents that could be lost it reduces fraud and they say it helped in a lot of ways and on the other hand of course a pretty interesting moment in this is that's and not only our the by metrics being used for our verification and identification in the camp but now and there's this great service available where there refugee kind of go and take out money which in a way it's empowering for that individual I'm on the other hand and an interesting transfer of data took place between the primary holder and now this bank and so you have now opened up a whole new road to a 3rd party consequences which are and are not written out anywhere and are not kept track of in any sort of accountable man and so lots of the refugees themselves all the stances for media being touted is seeing this as a as a very positive move their identifying the own identity with the fact that they are registered in a global body such as the UN and he's stand against you know I exist and which is a slightly worrying
the at so thereby by metrics example that was described now was simply using Iris's them as a form of identification verification that there actually a lot of new systems that are being experimented on constantly on which bring more and more and information into 1 place for this parametric form of identification and so increasingly what we're going to see is trying to store not just thumbprints for example and
but combining the prince of diarist combining it with and credit card information about them and so what we see on the right right now is uh something that's called a smart card and that is bringing together all these types of data into 1 place which and once again on this is framed as being added new enhanced and actually more secure therefore in some ways more enabling for people and in terms of how they are identified and how they make their way through societies the
and actually and what is really struck me about this new development is the way that it is framed on as being privacy and Privacy-Enhancing not just add a new form of securing but a way to get beyond and what is seen in some circles as this problematic 0 some debates this debate is so should our society have surveillance and data collection and its imagine that on 1 side you have people saying no we should have no surveillance and on the other side you have law-enforcement and government agencies say yes and actually we need all the surveillance you could possibly ever imagined and more in order to create a secure society but in order to deal with all of the threats that we face on an everyday level and so traditionally there has been this framework and called Privacy by Design which I many people are well not many but many more people are familiar with and other obscure frameworks for how to handle privacy within systems and Privacy by Design takes as its basis this idea that privacy needs to be built and from the beginning in a system that involves both people and technology and on and on the 1 hand privacy designed by design has been very valuable and has been there for 20 years as a reference point but now I'm in some cases by magic smart cards are said to be an In line with this framework because they are allowing and in a way that doesn't ask us to choose between either more surveillance requested and they say that with this system of enhanced verification and enhanced and collection of data we are also securing its and in a way that was impossible before and therefore we are protecting it therefore the data protection and that is enabled through this makes it I'm an adequate and ethical choice yeah the yes so and this is what I just described and this concept of getting beyond either more surveillance are less surveillance is called a full functionality so let's make everyone happy with 1 system and ends so there are a lot of important things that attempted with this and decision to try to bridge between the privacy camps and the national security con but on the other hand in my opinion there's an elephant in the room because get address which is how we actually the interface fish and if we're always arguing that the more protection around the data we keep and that's going to be great as long as we can protect and collect at the same time but on the other hand and that means were never talked about the fact that we shouldn't actually necessarily collected all of that to begin with so 1 area in which students could be seen as a leaf is half of the ICC fiddling with and that means that there's lots of and real-world examples around this and so yes and a research survey was done on mobile AIDS platform users which reported that some of this the 18 % of participants reported that someone else had inadvertently received their as mass containing AIDS or HIV information and this is just 1 example of how then there are examples where the government will come in and ask for uh this information and and they now have a perfect simple easy place to go together because another body either on mapping project were small and you know has collected or adding them and so the types of data they have collected in mobile ICT for being on you can include something directly from the user on and the the device the using so the file and the and act data of her and that I am the i where they you DID and information gathered about their behaviors such as Application Data Web browsing and etc. that are the the list goes on about what be like so 1 way in which uh mobile ICT spaces through participatory mapping and 1 example of this has been an through the platform UCT and lots of others but basically Crowdmap insignificant send and reports by SMS to essentialize platform and enables other people to see what's going on in the community and so the 1st major uses the utility and project for crisis mapping was in fact 2010 after the Haiti and wake and so this is kind of voluntary volunteer-driven effort to produce this map that showed what was going on where people were whether it would being found was happening the and it happened with and a group called missions for mission 4 6 3 6 which was set up as the number 466 is set up as an emergency number to text or and if you have if you want to stand in a report to and so they have received have over 10 thousand SMS is this message is just during the search response period of and trying to find people during the earthquake and and so there was an independent valuation that took place after the because it was really B and a really big deal in the Crab nothing in the world and so during and during the project during the as quick search itself the decision was taken after 24 hours of deliberations conservation lawyers whether or not to to publish the SMS is that received online so they had to be polite US Marines using it the sector your sexual state and announced that this was the the main platform through which he could get the information the other international organizations that were relying
upon this volunteer-driven collection of data and to the ways that we can consulted said that consent was implied to be the publishing of post personal identifying information to join the project itself and some the SMS is were published however after they were taking down I am and this is kind of yeah it was I think it's still a bit of a thorny issue as to whether it should have been or not but they couldn't be completely sure that there was a need and there wasn't any harm being done to the communities in question which is why down at 1 and the reason that I like the stories because as a result of that because they spent these 24 hours in a really crucial time-pressured environment considering what they should do and then they realize that there is a need for a code of conduct or said guy like guidelines to advise people and what they what they should do so for future for future reference so after this and the SMS code of conduct for the disaster responses from the as a result of that realizing that they have this stage making notes do it this is a crowd sourced and draw upon expertise from loads of platelets of experts and is now used quite widely within the nothing community and and iterated about them yeah as a result of of what happened in the the so now we get into a slightly different area and we chose to talk about human trafficking because this presents a really a kind of edge example where you deal with vulnerable populations that have very personal data but that can bring them into harm's way and and there are also people tend to be displaced and and may need a service at a certain time but would you want so some at some point after they've been displaced come where their original country of origin was and so the great challenge of human trafficking is to create a system that allows for people to receive care when they need it and thus requires women to be identified in certain ways but then also allows them to step out of that and not the stamped a certain way for the rest of their life as someone who was a victim of slavery some sort and so in this world and and euros and various intermediaries have been hard at work for the last 10 years trying to come up with a code that that makes sense for this field of work on these types of NGO stays the same challenges as anyone doing this type of work where they must report back to funders and government agencies who I want to see that progress has been made in addition to to those players alter the case will end up in court in around slavery and in that case and the local law-enforcement will want to get involved in order to bring the support you will need certain types of information so in this case and these are the people doing this worker faced with a difficult set of considerations where they want to provide care and represents the actual help but and on the other hand there still obligated to collect information they themselves are actually curious about how that information can be used to map trends around the world for example of and so what has happened is that these groups have been taking that they have been spending a very long period of time and can do no harm sort of brainstorm Privacy Impact Assessment before they begin any sort of care program and within that they hone in on the indicators and as this is called the development of the indicators are forms of information that they feel are most essential in order to track who their actually helping and I have to go outside I think have much smarter about the and this and this allowed to collect both there really it's really necessary information while I'm following the data minimization principles that often are missed in this field and the use of so I'm a lot of what has been used to help them come up with this framework and has been helped along by the EU Data Protection Directive and specifically around how sensitive data is handled over ethnicities and in most normal circumstances that's actually not OK to collect information about religious and philosophical beliefs and trade union membership of political opinions ethnic origin and this is all considered off-limits in that the standard practices within the EU Data Protection Directive of course some exceptions have been made on and this is that if the data subject has given their explicit consent that they understand what it means to have certain pieces of information collected about them and then also that they understand what will happen to a dandelion and another exception is if uh and so if there's some sort of legal obligations involved either with law enforcement and then there are some some loopholes in there and as well as when the vital interests of the data subject are presupposed the danger in which you can argue fairly easily in a case like data traffic and and in part and and then and then this is also grounds for example and so in any case and this is the case where a long framework with lots and lots of clauses is actually ended up being a practical and and at least something to start from OK now we come to a lot and wasteful forward control between things that would even mentioned within the international development community things that we want to live moment and recommendations from friends and community an this is that you might
recognize this from the British sitcom Little Britain and compete says no headway buildings we need to make sure that we're not building systems where computers know what's people's livelihoods at risk and there are some examples of how by metrics data has been used and such blind faith put in the system and put in the fact that this technology will be 100 % correct all the time that no matter if as someone says yes if example is used when the crossing borders and to check whether that cost more than once and to get double the amount of uh kind of their repatriation package that they might be offered from refugee agencies and uh persistence of some of the projects that have been developed so far I mean that if uh refugee crosses for the 1st time I genuinely for the 1st time but the risk is somehow there's a false much within the system they don't get to have that cash we preach repatriation package because the aid workers operation that technology have been really such a lot of faith in the technology and there's there's some amazing quite some people who are operating is saying now we neglect the machines can never be wrong now we know who to trust and which is also a little bit scary and being aware of the 3rd party risks and what this what this means so for example with the the template the Syrian uh refugees having their data and shared with banks in Jordan and being aware of what the environment is in which this is being shared and also especially being aware now and there is a trend currently where more and more players are getting into the Big Data game which means at some point that they will be sharing word are receiving a certain parts of a database from someone else but potentially held but personally I don't fall identifiable or some sort of information so I'm really hashing out what it means for a 3rd party on the outside to be either sharing now or receiving that data are becomes crucially important that and I guess another part of the the people who so when you're designing a project is using technology making sure that as a back-up in case the project is wrong said the example that I just mentioned iris scans the taken from refugees but they would take him with any of the back-up without any of the data points this was done in theory with the uh the privacy concerns of the refugee in mind but but it meant that if there was a false much they have nothing to fall back on and so it was just it was all reliant on on this machinery and being completely 107 right all the time the the of so now we get to the issue of what data-collection looks like if we are being on reopening much more time into thinking through the ethical ramifications so this involves of course the winners of the long term and downstream effects of the initial point at which all of the data was taken from someone of course this also means of dinner minimization as a basic principle in order to do data minimization that's not something you can do after you've collected the data actually that is the consideration that needs to be present in the design of the entire research work program were on aid initiatives from the very beginning from beforehand because determinism minimization doesn't mean taking a have a database and shaving off part of it means actually deciding that last data will go in in the 1st place and that that data will be more valuable to begin with and 1 other issue that comes up especially relevant data is often times uh body will claim that no we are using anonymized data it is in the identified and therefore we are taking precautions and and therefore there is nothing to worry about and it has been proven over and over in experiments on the statistical calculations that really identifying something that was anonymized to begin with is really not that hard and this is something that we will hopefully see more examples of so that we can point out the fact that just anonymization is not enough that is what we were mentioned within the ICT for the movement lots of fun due request will do require lots of them indicators to show how successful the project was in some cases there the information that they require to be collected might not necessarily be in the best interests of the population of hot that's something to think about again in the present design wii Cleckley's information and he was at benefiting and is actually doing any active Hall could Indian vomiting Future TV is already very vulnerable people on the on the
so yes general guiding principle is building the unforeseen circumstances and consequences of what do you do now with the anticipation that the reason you thought you were collecting data the data now is only 1 reason or 1 purpose word use for the data and currently the Internet industry runs on the premise that we will always find a new use for 1 piece of data that seem to only serve 1 purpose and therefore we should keep the horizon open in on hand in order to see all the different is quiet but and on the other hand uh if we keep this usage open in this way then we can I get into some really problematic areas the and and then I guess this is kind of based on what form the work is kind of around so movement away from traditional international development in the way I've been describing of that kind of on the actors parachuting into communities carrying out development project about not much input from the communities affected and then leaving at Towards Open Development and and this is a long and inclusive way of thinking about development projects it's building upon this is a new framing and develop projects essentially it's uh framing and projects based on building upon local knowledge including much more inclusive process is going to communities in asking them what do they need happen they happen this we have this happen in the best way for this particular community as getting laser that 1 model for all said there's not going to be in a project that had rolled out across countries regardless of their local cultures of customs this participatory forms as this example participatory budgeting community meetings that decide upon the priorities of the project in question and on the axis is using data and not a stated that the process is around international development in a more open and participatory manner and the hope that at the hope is that by making it more participatory you're actually opening more room for people to provide you with an active informed explicit consent when they do then decide to enter into a relationship that they become a data subject yeah it and finally the yeah so throughout all of this the people that we've been speaking to you have been kind of astonished at uh the fact that they get they received so much training humanitarian workers have been received so much training before they go out into the field on how they should behave what they should do what they should do and I haven't found a single person he's and receive any training and digital security all on data literacy or on what data might mean that told and you know this is being carried out in a secure way and that's it like it's being kind of a push to the detector on that project its entire trust is being put into the fact that that will be managed and I have been managed in a different way yeah and this whole concept of whether something is secure or not is in itself false because there are always degrees and to which you can depend upon the fact that something that a piece of information has been protected correctly and I'm aside from what we might label hardcore digital security which is whether something was encrypted in the correct way they're also all of the information practices of people out in the field which influence on how the data will be used so if someone is an out in the field and they're collecting certain types of data and but then they don't understand that a certain type of thing but they're collecting can be modeled on the line for a particular reason that itself can be part of which is the information security practices and then on the other side is either the communities from him the data's being taken obviously it's kind of unrealistic to to expect to really evil communities we might in you know the in the west of situations in the entire world to expect them to to take the to use in data literacy is a as a priority making have others that are on intermediaries within those communities that could be educated to know enough to ask the right questions like other civil society organizations working countries like journalists and that they could learn about the data literacy so understanding what the data means together with the context so if the if the seal the state this these datasets they would know OK that's not right you collecting the data on ethnicity the populations for example all be able to context I repeated to hold donor agencies of the people hold carrying out these projects to account and 1 and then act as he said associated training for the people who are working with local communities and those who are in charge of and using technologies of thanks that there have been if I had any questions just come when he goes talk about some active considered 1 in terms of how people use each other's data I did kind of confused because the truth of the matter is when you collect data sets more often than not you don't know when it's going to be valuable but oftentimes it becomes value 1 day like you guys have said some of her processes like I data call of data consent protocols were in context and when they feel like they have the data and they feel like it could be appropriated we used the request for a people to consent to sign off and give consent to use that data on while the process works in a very civilized is not misuse of was societies but very western societies it does work everywhere I don't know how how would you solve
this problem when you know that you eventually will only that data you know you eventually will have the appropriate context for it and you base it on people requesting you to use the data or do you base that on we're only going to collect this because we see this as appropriate now that causes 2 problems because if you collect from the bottom up in the answer from the top down you miss a lot of things that will become valuable in the future but if you collect from the bottom if you collect from the top down and from the bottom up you neglect of lot of societal issues here and of course and there's there's no easy answer to that I think you're asking all the right questions on it I I would wonder if you can tell now that you don't need this state at this moment but that you well in the future then I assume if you can tell that now then the collection that data fits within some mission that you're working under whatever this at greater promise for the work is would then carry over if you're already able to anticipate that you'll need something in the future and so in that case you would want to evaluate this along the priorities of the program in place for the data collection and while continuing to be aware of that but you are now opening up this road to unintended uses feature yes but unfortunately when you try new data from a collection point you limit its ability to work in conjunction with other datasets that other companies have collected because data does not work particularly well singularly Butterworth globally well in conjunction with other datasets in the future from 1 dataset another person France's dataset or starts from starts by only collecting certain points did lose its its malleability to be applied in real world situations from I think to requesting the data as a major company requesting using specific datasets and asking each specific company do you have a particular dataset on this do you have a particular dataset on this and then requesting the status and all these companies then send out were sent out on consent request to the users of that data and these users give consent they can use that the appropriate portion of the users who gave consent on the data in the 1st place on this is the perfect answer the questions but I feel like training data to begin with is not the appropriate way to go I feel like contextually applying the data is the is the right way to go I think you're making as he said I mean you making a lot of assumptions that you can go back to these users you can ask them that kind of thing so we had a clear idea from someone I spoke to houston looking like in in Syria feature in refugee camps in Jordan material and then he's like in a lot of countries and he said the 1 thing that struck him is the different way in which the same agency of the same organization will carry out procedures in different countries so when when we when they come to the UK or the US Europe for summer and they have to follow a set number of regulation they have to ask they have to make sure that the person collecting the data from it understands what it will be useful and how they can access it how they can delete it and and lots of other considerations whereas when it's carried out for example in the refugee camps or in other development projects they don't they skate by process so and the assumptions in making that you could go and you could request again that anything it's it's I he could request consent from people I mean consider the the environments in which people are working on the fat people leaving this huge populations that they were they waited that they might not have ever been explains the process they might just been said I told you know we need to have this and this and this and then you can have these benefits and that no 1 is going to say no it's not it's not of a faction if consent procedure and that there are some examples of how kind of how information campaigns that happened around communities of affected communities together the Web with the community is already to explain what consent means to that in a way that they understand rather than I have people who are in positions of power yeah anyway by definition explaining in a in a way that people might understand so something to Oman sorry for being really finicky and ask you what questions but I feel like if we take a one-sided approach where we only try to appropriate for the people using the data not for the people getting the data because causes problems so maybe in the future when I'm we have the ability and we have this many people online giving this information we can teach them what the data means may be as far from the ground up teaching people the data needs in making better systems in which they do give consent would you choose to not give consent they are now thank thank you for that question included thank you I think were also making a very fundamental assumption here and that is that there is a we that collects this data and that there is a day that may be at most give us consent so why are we not even considering systems where they on the data where we create systems or they create systems we were were recreate systems together that then give the tools to them as well so why is there a we you are operating on this and then if we come up with new users and we just extend that free and open system that they have and they can choose whether or not to run that intelligence on their own data and this is kind of a list of that we have been developed making this whole system a lot less hierarchical and more participatory sick people designer in systems they and what they what they're doing they design projects themselves and they know what they need to do it in other words what I would call independent technology on it and I mean that they are would say the questions that Tolkien and now very well thank you very much of the land has thank
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