Don't talk to women in tech about women
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Transcript: English(auto-generated)
00:20
Great, everyone. Good afternoon. The room feels like it has a bit more energy, so that's great. We're just going to ask those who are settling in to please do so so that we can get started. Right. So welcome to this session that is titled, Don't Talk to Women in Tech, About Women in Tech.
00:43
I will get to the gist of what that is in a moment. But first, I want to introduce the two lovely ladies sitting right next to me here. This is an East African connection, but we're going to open it up to the global connection, I promise, to my far right. We have Clarice from a startup that we
01:01
loved called HeyHeyHey, which is one of the most successful mobile apps in Rwanda right now. And the fierce Jerry Chilimo from Nairobi Dev School. And these lovely ladies are going to share with us their journey into tech from the point of curiosity to the point where they became these fabulous entrepreneurs. And what that means now that they are women in tech.
01:23
I'll just be here making noise. My name is Nanjira from the iHub in Nairobi, Kenya. So Clarice, we'll just jump right into it. You could tell us about how you ended up in tech. OK, thank you very much. Like she mentioned, my name is Clarice from Rwanda, and I run a mobile tech company called HeyHey.
01:43
But it's actually a Kenyan under word that means where. And basically what we do is we just want to be the guys that point people to the right information that inspires them to do things they never believed were possible. And how I got into technology, I
02:02
would say that it starts when I was about maybe five years old when my mom bought me a doll, a Barbie doll. And I decided to wash its hair for some reason. And all its hair fell off. So must have been one of those knockoff dolls.
02:22
And when its hair fell off, my mom thought I probably didn't like dolls. So she went and got me all different kinds of other toys that were not the traditional toys that you got girls. So she got me a tennis ball, video games
02:41
throughout my life, all these different types of things, a guitar at some point. And this just sort of exposed me to another whole side of the world that was not the traditional. This is how you bring up a girl. You get her doll. She has to be in the kitchen. She has to do all the different types of things.
03:00
And because of the types of toys I had, I got a chance to play with guys. And we would discover video games, computers, and all these other things. And before I knew it, I wanted to be a computer scientist to figure out what is behind this machine. And that's when I was 16 years old. And I got the chance to do computer engineering at the Kigali Institute of Science and Technology.
03:23
And in my third year, we had the chance to participate in a six-weeks program with students from MIT in the US. And out of that six-weeks program, we were taught mobile apps development and entrepreneurship. And before I knew it, Hey Hey existed. Hey, hey.
03:41
Hey, hey. Great. Jerry, share with us your story. OK. My journey in tech has been a bit shorter compared to Clarice. After high school, I was meant to go to med school. So it's a thing in Kenya when you do well as a girl, or not actually as a girl, when you do well.
04:01
At the school you go to, we actually went to the same high school, though in different, very different years. So she understood where I'm coming from. So from the school, you are expected to do medicine. It's kind of funny that we're one of the few schools in Kenya where physics is a compulsory subject. So you're supposed to do physics. Biology is also compulsory, after which
04:21
you become a doctor. So it was very aligned. So while I was in my few months break between high school and university, I was working as an intern at an NGO. And I used to work under the accountant. And my work was just inputting figures into Excel. And as I continued doing that, I got very fascinated
04:41
at how this computer worked. I had played with a computer a bit at one point in my previous life when I wanted to go to MIT. But that was just to fill up the application. So I was really fascinated at how the computer was asking, was working, I mean. I asked so many questions and didn't quite get answers. And I was asked to Google it.
05:02
And that's exactly what I did. I came across programming and a very interesting essay by, I think, the founder of Y Combinator, how to be a hacker. Gives you a description from learning your first programming language, what's required of you, and what's going on in tech now. That was late 2011, right after I'd finished high school.
05:22
It was really exciting. I went through the essays, started teaching myself. I was really lucky, because in early 2012 is when many sites such as Udacity, Coursera, Treehouse, Code Academy had just been launched. So there's this flood of information online of how to be a hacker. It was a new world to me, and everything was available.
05:42
So I quit my internship, bought a computer, and started hacking. How about that? Some fierce women on this stage. Round of applause, yeah. So, and you can answer this in any order. I mean, so great, here you are. You're maybe four or five years into what you're doing.
06:04
What do you take about the fact that, when people talk about women in tech, they say, we're still underrepresented, and then there are all these, well, very real and perceived barriers, right? So an actual barrier would be in our case, where if you're gonna do science,
06:20
you're supposed to do medicine, something in the biological field, right? In Clarissa's case, which is a rare, I think, a rare story, you got the chance to get away from dolls. You weren't forced to like dolls. You weren't told that's what girls do. But what do you make of the fact that, well, there are very real barriers
06:40
to women entering in technology, but then there are also those that are perceived, you know? What's your take on that, and how we can start making it a bit more ubiquitous so that we can get to a place where we're not talking just about women in tech, but people in tech, men and women combined? First on the barriers thing, I think you're right.
07:02
They're real and perceived barriers. For example, in my case, I have no idea why, I'm actually still trying to investigate why I had no idea computer science existed before, considering sometime I wanted to go to MIT. So you wonder why I had no idea computer science existed,
07:23
and I did physics, but I still had no idea this field existed. And I think some of the real barriers, for example, in Kenya, for high school students, boys schools get a chance to study electronics. That pisses me off. I was in high school the same time with my brother. I did home science. We had home science, fine arts and music
07:43
for technical subjects. I wonder how that's technical. And I mean, that's nice, but it's annoying that we are both in public schools and I have no chance whatsoever to study electronics in any girl school. Because schools in Kenya are separated, girl and boys schools.
08:00
So as a girl, you're just doomed not to study electronics before 18. And my feeling is, by the time I'm turning 18, my brother has been playing with electronics and not just at home, even in school, has been building things in school for more than five years. So how are we competing? Actually, seeing as I was a couple of years ahead of you in our school,
08:21
what was interesting was we actually did have a computer lab and we had the textbooks. But what would happen is it would always be closed. So if it's not the one hour session you have for the computer class, you don't get a chance to test out and think around it. Examinations in computer, actually you write the code with a piece of paper and a pen and just put,
08:42
the teacher will be marking where you put the right stops and that's it. But then I discovered even with what he had as brother schools, they had the exact opposite experience. They had, the labs were open for them. And so you're right. I mean, that becomes then an actual barrier. I don't know, Clarice, what you've seen in your context. I'll just say that I have really been blessed
09:03
to first of all have been brought up the way that I was, where it didn't matter if I was a girl or if my brother was, he loved fixing stuff. In our home, we were all just children and whatever our parents felt
09:20
that you were more oriented towards, they encouraged that. And then there's the context of my country where it's, we're not just talking about women in tech, but generally how do we encourage women to just play an active role in the society there?
09:42
They're composed up to maybe 60% of the population. So you can't just ignore that. So you find that we have schools that are really focused on making sure that girls get a great education. Some of these schools are even just focused on technology and that has really changed things.
10:02
Would they still a bit of a challenge where, for example, in my university class, they were out of 50, which was a really small class, which was a good thing out of 50, there were about 15 girls. And I mean, that's not a very good statistic, but it's quickly changing.
10:21
You find that a lot of girls are getting involved in technology. My company this December, just hired five more people and it was really, really hard when it came to actually getting guys. How about that? It was tough.
10:40
Hey, hey, hey. Because the girls were so good and when I was just, we had four girls and one guy and when I was having a one-on-one with this guy about two months into the company, he told me, Clarice, when I came to this place, I knew I had to work really hard because it's hard for guys to get jobs in Rwanda.
11:00
Oh, okay. I was like, oh, wow, that's interesting. But I know the challenge is still there, but it's not just about tech. It's about saying, how do we get women involved in politics? How do we get women involved in finance, in entrepreneurship? How do we get them involved in everything? And I hope that the conversation can really be about just getting women involved in society as a whole
11:21
and not just tech. Jerry, you run a dev school now and we've seen, and I think this is an outgrowing trend in many places in the world where if you're trying to include more women in tech, you create women-only institutions or women-only courses and women-only conferences, like it's an only women world, which is not true.
11:42
And so I'm just curious from having a space like yours, the Nairobi Dev School, how those dynamics have played out and not just in numbers where we are knocking off the guys for more girls, but how that space, which I believe has more guys and girls involved are coming into the train, how that's playing out. This is an interesting question.
12:00
So in the first batch, we clearly had more guys than girls. In the second batch of the training, we tried to consciously getting more girls and we got to this position where applications are open online, girls had not applied. So we sent emails to user groups and we still had no applications.
12:20
So in this position of, are we going to take half of the number and send all these other guys home and try to figure out where we'll get the girls. So I'm still trying to figure out how that will pay out because we are not a women's only program. We're really trying to remove any barrier whatsoever that could be there in draining the school.
12:44
The people who run it, I mean, I'm a woman, so I don't think that you'll find it not being friendly. So I don't know quite how I'll answer that question. But yes, there's a controversial issue that happened. Eventually we decided we'll just go with applications that are there and do the interviews
13:00
and whoever's qualified will come in. So as much as we, I am very much encouraging more women to get into technology, but I again don't want to lock out qualified people, if I may say, just because of their gender. Because then again,
13:20
I feel like that very thing that we are fighting is exactly what you're creating by me removing this barrier from Clarice and putting it on your side. I mean, what have I done? So I think that's another conversation that we should have. So any one of you can answer this. So do you think then when we have this narrative women in tech,
13:42
these perceptions that are starting to grow around that it means bringing more women, okay, let's have women in conferences just to fill out the numbers and say, hey, look, we had women. And how is it playing out the fact that I should not only be there because I'm a woman, but because I actually deserve to be there one and two, I am actually skilled.
14:01
Both of you are creating spaces and I'm sure you're probably told at some point or other to be a role model. How do you perceive the idea of being a role model? Are you thinking of it as, do you feel this pressure to be like a role model for women? So now you're suddenly modeled as other women must follow your path. And I'm curious about what you think about just being a role model as someone in tech.
14:23
It's not about being a woman. So suddenly because I have hair and high heels that I have a certain caliber or niche that I can only be a role model for, but it's because of skills. I don't know because I'm sure that word has been used upon you because you're young. And so, you're women, you're in tech. So it's everything you set up for that stage.
14:41
But how do you perceive the idea of being role models? Thrice have been invited in the past six months to speak at a conference because they had no women to speak. And it's funny because I was a co-organizer in these conferences. So Martha, we really, really need to have a woman to speak, so kindly speak.
15:01
And I've turned down each one of them because they didn't care what I have to talk about. They didn't care about the talk proposal that I have. It was never about the contact and that content that really annoyed me. For example, a certain conference that was happening in Israel last year. I want to mention the conference. And so the year before, not actually Israel, in Greece.
15:23
The year before, they had only white men as speakers and the whole Ruby community. I think that just sold out the conference. Anyway, the whole Ruby community was up on them on Twitter because the whole lineup was white men, literally, from Europe.
15:42
It was a European conference. And this year, they really tried to add some diversity. I was an African woman, part of the organizers. And we really went out and tried to get talks. And at the end of that, we had no woman on. And so I was the last resort. So if I may ask, why was that? So why is it, well, if they searched,
16:01
why were there no women? Actually, my work was to communicate. I was in charge of communications. So I don't know, maybe I failed on my job. But the thing about talk proposals, I can only invite you to send a talk proposal because how it works, you're sending a talk proposal and the community votes for it. If there's no talk proposal,
16:20
there'll be no one to vote for it. So I think maybe we should work on, I don't know, getting more talk proposals there because really, there's nothing you can vote for if it's not yet there. I wasn't quite sure how I was going to do that because I only had two months to get that going. And I think I get offended personally when you ask me to show up because I'm a woman.
16:40
Most of the time, they don't even ask me what topic I'll speak about. Everyone else's talk was voted on. Mine will get voted on. I mean, she'll show up. She's from Kenya. She's the perfect speaker to our diversity. So I think we need to change that conversation. As much as we're adding diversity, are we actually empowering the person? Just because I can write Hello World in Ruby,
17:02
which is really cool. So, you know, I get flown to Greece and I write Hello World and everyone's like, whoa, a Kenyan woman writing Hello World. So I think we need to actually, I wouldn't feel empowered. I really wouldn't feel empowered. I'm not playing at a global level
17:21
because how is that going to help me in technology? How is that going to help me in innovation? So I think the conversation should change a bit. Clarice, your thoughts on that. I will say that for me, once I got into technology, I mean, one second I was just an ordinary human being and before I knew it, I was a woman in technology.
17:41
So I became aware of all of this and sometimes they would invite me, like she said, to places, you know, just because I'm a woman, I was given the mandate to start the girls in ICT movement in my country. And like all these things were weighing down on my head. And this year I actually made what would seem to be a bit of a radical decision to quit this group.
18:01
I quit this group because when I got into technology, it's not because I saw Marissa Meyer or somebody else there and, oh, there's a woman in technology. I want to do this. I did it because it's something I was passionate about. I think that the real conversation goes beyond just,
18:21
I mean, is it women in technology? No, it's are we empowering every single human being in our society? And sometimes when I'm working with high school kids, I will, you know, sort of encourage the teenage girls because sometimes they see guys around and they're intimidated, they're things like that. We can't pretend that that is not there,
18:40
but I don't want to put them in a corner and say, you know, you'll just compete amongst yourselves and you'll just do your own girl thing and we'll have our little world there. So we do try to find a way to balance it. But I will say that at some point, I just had to say, you know what? I just want to run my business. I want to do what I'm passionate about. And I'm not yet to say, hey, we're women and you know, we can do this too.
19:01
That's not the point. Great, indeed. Round of applause there. And I did round up a whole lot of women to come for this session because I also wanted to open it up to the floor. And so, I mean, anyone here who has a similar point or a different point or disagrees with what we've all talked about right now,
19:21
now's your chance. So I hope there's somebody who has taken over my role on the floor to roll with the mic. I would do jumps, but I'm not going to do that. I'm not a good athlete, even though I'm from Kenya. So I think there's one question or hand over there.
19:49
Yeah, so just very shortly, maybe I'm a case in point, but if you have a look around in this conference, of course, the distribution of men and women is quite equal, which is not the kind of stuff I'm used to, because I'm in the hacker scene
20:02
and typically for 6,000 people, there would be like 50 women. But what's really interesting is that even though the distribution is equal, if you have a look at the questions being asked, and I'm a case in point, it's typically by men. And I think the reason for that is that men somehow feel more maybe entitled
20:24
or just more like the more self-assured that the question they're going to ask is going to be meaningful, which is the case, of course, for women too, that they will ask the proper question and I think they will answer actually better questions from my perspective, because I always hear the same questions
20:41
being repeated in a certain sense. But I feel this is something that is related to what you were saying, that there were no proposal by women, because if you ask the women, I'm pretty sure they would say, I don't have anything to say, or what I have to say is not relevant or not interesting. And whereas the guys would say,
21:00
go up and say, yeah, well, I got something to say and it's interesting and I'll definitely win, I'll definitely get there. And I see this quite often that if you see like a job proposal and the people that apply to the job, then the women who will apply will be overqualified and the guys who will apply will actually be underqualified for the job.
21:23
That's because for the same, I think it's the for the same reason. And the women hands shut up. So yeah, in this order. I had two points. I hope I didn't forget them already.
21:41
One was concerning what you said earlier, I think Republica is a very good example of how it can work with women being represented at conferences especially, just because there is a lot of women on the team and a lot of people, basically all of them who have the sensitivity towards the issue of women in our fields.
22:03
So that's not really the normal case, like we heard. But the second thing is you were saying earlier that you don't really want to be the one getting invited just because she's a woman. And I totally get that. And of course, I want it to be different as well. But someone told me a few years ago,
22:21
and I've been sort of living after this controversial theme to not be afraid to be the token woman sometimes because if there's not women going and taking an opportunity, even if it's just because they're a woman and then prove that they have the knowledge,
22:40
they know what they're talking about, and they can do it and they belong there to sometimes just like forget how you got there, but kill it when you're there. And I know it's a bit controversial because of course, you want to be there in the first place because you know what you're talking about. But that's just something that I've been living by and that I think can be very encouraging for others.
23:06
Yeah, I'm working since six years in tech and I have only problems. I never get a job like I'm sending my CV and I get it because everyone told me you are too qualified for this job.
23:20
We are taking a man who has not so much qualifying. And I'm saying, come on, what that I'm living in Germany. And normally, if you tell that to a man, he say, no, it's not possible. Of course, you will get the job because we are on the same level. But it's not like that. And for me, if I'm getting, if I see there's a conference or something,
23:40
I sign up to have a speak because I just want to show what I know and I just want to speak for the woman which are really competent in the stuff. And if I just say here, I have something and I want to talk, I'm mostly getting no, no, no. And if I show up there, there are women. But everyone is just sitting and no one is asking or just say something.
24:03
If a man say, okay, now you can ask question. Almost all women are like just sitting and listening. And I think we should go more up and talking more. And if you get the opportunity to ask or to just show your competence, just do it. Don't be shy as a woman.
24:21
We need to show our competence as more. As the mic gets to the other side, the only thing I'll just add to that is we sometimes think that the only way to represent people is by being loud. But there are people who are then active by listening, being silent participants. And so it shouldn't be a thing about more women not speaking as a function of them not being there.
24:43
It could be that they are listening more than people who just want to assert themselves. And so these are some of the things I'm finding, even I myself, as I do a lot of this is a question of whether it's a man or a woman. It doesn't mean a function of your participation in this world is being loud or being active. It could be the fact that you showed up.
25:00
So I just wanted to say that is also valid, that it should never be a one dimensional way to look at it. Yes. So what I'm experiencing is that women tend to strive for perfect experiences. Like they want it to be perfect and they are trying to have like the perfect wording
25:21
on stage, the perfect content, the perfect sentences they say. And I think we don't have to be perfect. It's just that we show that we are there and that the self-confidence is without perfectionism in this, I'd say. And so trust yourself.
25:41
Very good, very good, thank you. Wow, okay. Let's see how much more time until the time is cut off. Hi, the only guy who has spoken. My name is Brian and I'm from Kampala and I am inspired by these ladies.
26:01
I actually met her here, but I know about the deaf school in Clarice, like four years back. In Uganda, we run the Code Girls and what these ladies are saying and what someone has just added is totally very true. We had an event last month
26:22
where we invited over 60 girls and guess what happened? We actually thought it was going to be this interactive. No, they just came and they sat in their little groups and they did all their assignments and the workshops and there was nothing like great presentations and you know what happens with the guys, all that ego and everything? No, just simple.
26:42
And then after three weeks, we called them again for a design session and we were blown. It's like they had been doing this for like the last six months. So it's like she says, it's probably not about being loud and being everywhere on social media and all that stuff.
27:03
It's just give them a chance to be who they want to be. Thank you so much for that, Brian. Thank you. I don't know how we're faring on time, but I keep seeing more hands popping up, but this conversation will definitely continue somewhere. So I will try to be quick. I have two comments, on what someone said about high school being different
27:24
for girls and boys in Kenya. I went to public school in Switzerland and I had the same opportunities as the guy, but yet when you go to engineering school, you have 15 to 20% of girls. So even if it is available, it doesn't mean that the girls are entering it. The second comment is that as girls,
27:42
we're told we have to be pretty and modest and polite and quiet. At the same time, the boys, they have to be strong and brave. So it's something that is really so deep inside of us since we're little girls. And for us, it's every day a fight to stand up and actually take the mic and speak up
28:00
because it's been instilled in so deep inside of us and we need every day to fight that. So I think I just want to ask you a quick question and I'm sorry to cut everyone else short, but what did it mean for you to have a choice? Because what we're discussing here, I think describing is the fact that give us the choice, okay? Let it be that when we get to university, it's not because I didn't know about tech
28:21
or any tech course, it's because I made the choice not to take tech. So what do you think about having had choice? Actually, I don't know because I'm the one who actually decided to go to tech school. I'm a physicist and I decided when I was 12 that when I was, I wanted to be a physicist when I grow up. And I just didn't care that people say, oh, but it's not for girls.
28:41
I was like, what's that bullshit? I mean, if I like it, I want to do it. And so I don't know why people don't go because I did go. I just observed that it's still not happening. And I've heard girls saying, I don't want to go to tech school because there are too many guys and I'm afraid of them. And I want to say, if you really want to go,
29:00
go, you shouldn't care because there are too many guys. Oh, great. So I thought we had a half hour, but we have one hour. So yes, let's keep talking. Awesome. Yeah, so there've been hands there, there, there, yes, the women are here. And so are the men, great stuff.
29:24
Hi, my name is Mugedi from Nairobi. My question is, of course, I feel you because I'm a woman and I hate being the talking woman, but is there a value in seeing someone just like you succeeding in something that you would possibly want to do?
29:42
Do you think that as a woman in a position of success, you're able to influence somebody more than a man would influence another woman or a little girl somewhere?
30:01
I guess yes. One, because we all have visions and you picture your future. It's really hard to picture your future when you're seeing a man ahead. In a way it makes more sense when you can see a successful woman in a position that you want to occupy and see that it's possible.
30:22
Given an example, I was making fun with a friend of mine, Vicky, who was up here yesterday, bought me a little notebook. I want to be a Nobel Prize winner and here's my plan. And when she gave me the notebook, I thought of Wangari Mathai from Kenya. The fact that there's been a Kenyan woman who's won it, I can actually visualize it and it's possible.
30:43
And I can see that you can work towards it, but if it's only been men from a whole different continent, who in it really is any, you can't even imagine how that's possible. So yes, in a way I do believe there's value in that. That's my opinion. Carice, any thoughts?
31:01
Like I mentioned earlier, when I got into take, when I made the decision to do what I wanted to do, I didn't specifically focus on the gender of the people that inspired me, but rather the content of their character and the fruit that they were bearing. And for me, that's what I want to inspire kids about myself.
31:22
I don't want them to say, oh, she's a girl and oh my God, that's inspiring. I want them to say, she built such an amazing company or such an amazing app or whatever, or her values. And that is what I want to use to inspire the younger generation. I just don't want it to be a topic around my gender
31:43
because that again distracts us from what really matters. Indeed. Okay, mine is a comment. I think the whole gender notion is mostly predominant in the heads of women, I'm sorry,
32:02
because there are women farmers in Africa who dig. They go to the farm, they dig. There are women mechanics. There are women pilots. And it's mostly women who interview women to ask them about how it feels to be in a particular sector.
32:21
I mean, I think it's about time we drop this whole women in tech thing because it's not a big deal. We are here, we are part of the community. Tech is part of us. So I mean, personally, I don't know, the opportunities bit is very true. If we don't get equal opportunities,
32:40
of course, it makes us feel like we are different. But I think the whole gender thing became big because in the previous years, even to today, some girls were not allowed to go to school. But by the time we passed through that, I think we keep talking about it too much
33:00
to a point that to us, we feel like, I don't know if it's a privilege or it's different, but it's not. We are doing what men are doing. And you're not doing it because we are women. We are doing it because we know how to do it. So yes, thank you. Right, right, exactly. Yes, it's now all you guys can talk
33:22
and we'll sit here and listen. There were other hands. Hi, my name is Tolu. I'm from CC hub in Nigeria. And I'm not sure what it is exactly I'm about to say if it's a question or if it's a comment, but it's going to take a story form.
33:41
I am female. I am in tech, technically. I know how to code a bit, but that's not really what I do most of. And I guess if we look at it, technology is no longer that sector. It's something that it's ingrained in almost everything we do. But now here is a bit of this story. About two years ago, I went for a Google conference in Lagos
34:02
and at the Google conference, it was open to everybody. There was about 500 people at least. And out of 500 people, there were less than 30 people who were female. And I'm including the Google staff and the ushers who were mainly female. So it was really discouraging. And I know in CC hub, there has been the movement for women in tech
34:21
because on one hand, there's, like she mentioned, it's almost in our culture that women are supposed to be pretty and they're supposed to sit at home. And I know my uncle once told me that he won't want to hire a female because she'll get pregnant and leave. So it's not just in technology really, it's everywhere. I like what Martha is doing
34:41
because she's encouraging people to learn how to code. And it's not just female or male. And I think in some way, the reason why there are more females coming in, whether you like it or not, you're a role model for them. And they can see how they can be part of this. I understand where Clarice is coming from. But, and I think that you should also take up an active role in being a mentor to them.
35:00
So last month, there was an event for girls in ICT. And I was expecting about 25 girls to show up from the university. Only seven people showed up. And of the seven people, only three of them really wanted to be there. The other four were forced by their friends who came. And I asked the ones who didn't want to be there, why they didn't want to come.
35:21
And they said, because they don't like math and because it's a boys thing. And there's a lot of miseducation around this for them. And I don't get it. Really, I don't understand it. So I asked one of them what she wanted to do. And she said she wanted to open up a fashion shop. And I said, how will you get your customers? And she said, probably through social media and having a website. And I said, that is technology right there.
35:41
So what are you saying? So I'm not sure where this is going. I understand that, because right now I'm having a challenge of building a program for women entrepreneurs who are going to use technology. And on one hand, I do not want to create that bias that I'm trying to avoid by having a program exclusively for women, even though guys can benefit from it.
36:00
But I also do understand and I recognize that there is a bias against women in tech. And how can I bridge that? How can I not put them in a shell and say, it's a girl's world, sort of. You're going to play only with girls. And then when it gets to the stage where they go out to the real world, it's like, wow, there are so many guys who are so assertive. How am I going to make my way in the world?
36:20
And then I drop out. I mean, I have stories upon stories upon stories to tell about this. And it's really confusing for me because I didn't get into tech because I'm female or because, I got into it because I liked it. But then again, to be a female African in tech, you have to be all sorts of crazy. Why don't we get more people to be that crazy?
36:41
Tell them it's cool to be this crazy. If you like it. I don't know if that's a good thing. It is. Really, it is for me, it is. So just telling your stories is one way to look at it. But yeah, like I said, I don't know where I'm going with this. I'm just recognizing that whether we like it or not, it is a problem. And we need to find a constructive way to address it
37:00
without reinforcing the bias and still making people know that you're not in this only because you're female, but because you're good. So yeah, I don't know. I guess I'll just stop now before I take over the whole stage. Thanks, Tulu. And as the mic goes to the next person, that brings to mind the idea of how even women are consumed tech. You find women magazines with,
37:21
or magazines with this tech reviews, but written for women. What is that? What is that? And it's part of a problem in a way. So suddenly you will sell the iPhone to a woman because it has a pink case. And you won't sell it to her because it's an iPhone. So this is a problem, not just with the entry points.
37:42
It's also a problem with the consumption points. And if there's a journalist here in the room, I please ask you to shut down the women's section for tech consumption and just let tech be tech. Thank you very much. And onto the next person. I just, I want to make a statement pro feminism
38:03
in this case, because I can only talk for Germany, but it's still, at least that I, I have the feeling it's still the situation that women from the earliest age on, they're taught a totally different way
38:21
than male socialized people are. For example, that it's common, boys get a computer, boys get the technical legal stuff or whatever. And I think there's something in the head of the society which needs to be broken before you can go
38:42
to the next step and say, okay, we don't need to talk about the gender issue anymore. I think it's, if you see the pay wages in Germany, women who are skilled the same way as males still get a lot, lot less paid off at the end of the month. And yeah, I admire people who are willing to go,
39:05
especially, I admire females who are willing to go the hard way. But I also think it needs to be something which needs to be loud, even though I understand that loud's not always the good way, but it needs to be loud. Because otherwise, a lot of people don't listen.
39:21
Yeah. Great, and I completely agree with you. And just like I kept on saying, it's a bigger issue. It's not about women in tech, it's about the society and what we're doing. I wish I could take the credit for being in technology today, like I'm some awesome crazy African woman
39:41
that did something that is extraordinary. But no, it's all the people around me that made this possible. It's my father who encouraged me. And even the one time that I told him, you know what, Dad, I think I'm going to do history. I seem to be much better at that. He told me, you know what, I think you'd be great at physics, but if that's what you want to do, go ahead and do that.
40:02
And it's the only letter my dad has ever written to me. But I just had that kind of encouraging environment around. And in my country as well, where there's this active, again, like you said, there's this active push for saying 60% or more than that of our population is women.
40:22
We cannot afford to ignore them. And also our history where a lot of men died in war, were in jail. You found that women were the breadwinners, they were the ones running the home. They were the ones that were responsible for everything going on in society. So it's a much bigger issue.
40:40
And honestly, I respect your opinion, Tulu, but it really goes beyond just women and tech. It's a whole issue in society. Again, we need to understand sex differences. We're not wired like men. So the way that you approach these things, I mean, you're not going to just force me to come on stage and speak.
41:01
That's not what I want to do. And you're not just going to force me to be part of a hackathon that's fun and just technical. I want to work on something that's meaningful. We need to understand all these things. And for me, that's the proactive role that I play, where I say, okay, we're working with high school girls. What is it that matters to them? It's not just about coding, it's not just about hacking,
41:20
but doing things that will inspire them as women and not because I'm a woman and just that, that it's just that. Just to build on that, I really like what Clarissa said. To give an example that's actually happening right now, I've just come to Berlin. I stay with my sister and brother in Kenya. My brother wants me to get him an Arduino for a gift.
41:42
He's a guy who does electronics. And my sister wants to get something else nowhere close to tech. And my opinion is that that's fine. I know we all want to get more women in tech, but that's fine. If I was to put an Arduino right here or a Raspberry Pi and go like, who wants this? If you don't want it as a woman,
42:01
I want us to get to the point. I know this is very controversial, but that's fine. If you're not interested in tech. I plan to pursue philosophy. Yes, I'm a coder, but I also love philosophy. I think writing is amazing. And I think we need to, I like the conversation of removing barriers to entry into technology. I love that.
42:21
Once you've given someone a choice, it's their choice. I don't think the world should get into an obsession of we had 50 to 15 girls, 50 boys to 15 girls in a class. So there's something wrong with that. I mean, university is an option. If I chose to do philosophy or God knows what else, I think that's fine. And by trying, I know we're making so much effort,
42:43
investing so much money into getting more girls in technology. But if I want to go how society has nurtured me, I think we need to also respect that choice and go beyond just saying, let's get more women into technology because then we're not respecting choice. And if you're not, what are we doing then?
43:01
That's my attitude. So I'm from Berlin and I'm a member of the Hackerspace C-base. And when I went to several hackathons, then I usually was one of the very few women. But what I found fascinating in the last year,
43:21
there were lots of women only events by the Berlin Geekettes hackathons, or I think I heard also the Rails Girls. And there was a Google Women's Techmaker Conference. And what I found fascinating that all these events were booked out. There were much more women who wanted to go there than were allowed to get in.
43:40
And I took part at the Women's Geekhead Hackathon at Coca-Cola. And the guys that were responsible for the APIs, they were a bit complaining that they don't get the real interesting questions. But what they did, they encouraged, the organizers encouraged the women to present any idea,
44:02
no matter how far it was. And I thought the ideas they came up with were really nice even if they didn't use all the specific API stuff. What I found interesting, before I didn't see women in tech, when they offered women only events, they were booked out. And now I finally found something
44:21
where there's 50-50 women and men, and that's the Open Tech School. And I'm really fascinated by that. So it's possible. And it's also spreading. Something that started in Berlin is spreading. And if you look at the homepage, I think there are two-third female faces and one-third guys.
44:43
And people showing up are 50-50, and I really like that. Oh great, that's an interesting example. All there. I think that other side also has...
45:02
Hi, I just wanted to hear your opinion on the kind of trend that is going on with research, especially when it comes to internet policy and women as our users' rights in general, on the research that genderize the digital rights and let's say how ICTs are violating women
45:25
more and more, for example, or how the internet is used to harass women more and more. I want to hear your perspective on that. Okay, I'm guessing that's directed at me. So a bit by background, I'm a research manager
45:41
on governance and technology at the iHub. And yes, that's one of the things we look at. And what's really interesting is there seems to be what would be termed a global trend, but in different contexts. So in Kenya, for instance, freedoms are there, internet freedoms are there almost by default really, not by design. And of course, there are times we find women are attacked.
46:03
And what we've found very interestingly enough on that front is when someone decides to start to initiate an attack on a woman, it's not about them being an individual. It will be about them and women in general. It will be about this is what happens when you give a woman a chance, you know? And so we've seen it's a very,
46:21
I don't know if it's a global trend, but like in a Kenyan context, it's a bit issue where the perpetuating of hate and a way to want to bog women down starts with the individual. So someone will attack me, say on Twitter, and it will then become about all the women on Twitter or all these women from Nairobi.
46:41
So even how then policies are starting to be shaped around that. One of the first things that the Kenyan government, for instance, is looking at is legislation that will curb cyber crime, which is still a very tricky thing to define. And that's, you know, with hate crime being there, hate speech, and how does that tie to gender? But because of these instances
47:01
and because there are so many women who are actually in politics and positions of power being targeted in that sense, that it's a more vocal issue. So this is, again, I can only give a context from Kenya, which is very active and very, you know, it's a very interesting space to be online as a woman. But what I also love
47:21
is that we are seeing women not waiting for the law to come and, you know, govern so that you can say, oh no, you can't do this to me because the law says it. Women are pushing back and it's not attacking back, it's pushing back. I'm finding that through conversations happening online in the Kenyan context, for instance, there are more men feminists and they don't know it yet. Because they're so forced to think into the logic
47:43
that over time you realize, wait, this guy doesn't know it but it's gotten to him because I spoke back. So it's also a thing of sometimes you have to speak back, sometimes you have to quietly listen. But again, it still very much depends with an individual and it also depends with those around you. So I don't know if anyone here also has a thought on that,
48:02
but yes, that's a basic overview and I'm happy to talk more about it. I don't want to bog down and I still want us to get as many questions from the floor as possible. I just have one small comment on that. I'll just say that how we behave online is simply a reflection of what we really like in society and maybe the internet does provide a new platform,
48:22
a new channel for what's already happening in society to be perpetuated. But it's, again, let's deal with the real issue. It's not about the technology. Any more? Hi, I have the mic, hi. Hi, I work with a lot of men.
48:42
And I will tell you three different cases. First, I teach at the University for Applied Sciences. And the moment I entered the class, it's only men, engineers. And that creates irritation. Not because I'm a man, because I'm young, and a man.
49:01
And because probably the way I look represents an ideal European way of women to look like. I work with an MBA program just one month ago, it was in Romania.
49:20
There was one participant, an older man who arrived earlier. So I asked him, so what brings you here? It's like, oh, I think the speaker, he looked really interesting. I was like, oh, it's me. Like, oh, okay, it's you. And I have many stories like this. So I think we shouldn't deny that it creates irritation
49:41
because it's outside the norm. Whatever the norm is, you can discuss about the norm having to be different. But it does create an irritation. And I think, I want to challenge you to do act as a role model. And to do accept that there is still, unfortunately,
50:01
a huge irritation because people have certain patterns of how a teacher in an engineering school should look like, of how somebody teaching business should be like a mentor or an IT programmer. People have certain models in their head
50:20
and you do create irritation. And I think being aware of that and catching that and playing with that is very important and also acting as a role model for other girls. I think that is important because it's the truth. So I would encourage you, for instance, to offer courses just for girls.
50:43
In some environments, I worked in Egypt in November and it's an Arabic country. So I really thought it was important to have a group only of girls because they acted totally different when they were alone. And then working with gender mixed groups was a total difference.
51:01
So depending on the context, I do think it makes sense sometimes to address that or even to redesign or reshape the way you work in education and act as a role model. Because you can't hide it, you create irritation. The truth is we can't help but be role models
51:23
whether we like it or not, yeah. I'd say maybe sometimes just being in this space is enough, okay? Me doing my thing or Clarice doing her thing or Martha doing her thing should be allowed to be enough. Because then there's also this other level of pressure for women in tech to suddenly all write books like Sheryl Sandberg about leaning in.
51:42
But maybe that's not what I'm here for. I'm just here to keep doing. And by so doing, opening up more avenues. So I think every step of involvement really entails opening up the spectrum of how we perceive it so that we are not then narrowing the way we should. So I'm expected to be a role model. So suddenly I need to give talks at every conference because that's the only way.
52:01
Sometimes being here doing what I do, opening up more roads should be enough. But I think it's, I agree with you as well. Exactly, and yes. So yeah, I mean, I think it's, I'm happy to just look at it as I'm here, I'm doing it.
52:20
If you think that makes me a role model, great. But then I should have the choice. And I don't know if this is the same way Clarice is saying and Martha, that then don't let that be the side tracking thing that I have to do now, you know? There are people who are happy to do that, but sometimes just being there is enough. I think there was another hand, right, yeah. Hey guys, thanks so much for this.
52:41
This is awesome. I wanted to just ask you, in our space in Kigali, I think that we actually have more women than men, generally, at the space, which is quite cool. But there are clearly incidences where just a couple months ago, we were organizing a Maker event, and everybody in the planning room was a guy. And then when we were talking about
53:00
all the different people that we're reaching out to, it was all university students that are in this Maker Club, and I think it was 40 students and there were two women. And it was like, there was this sort of existential crisis in the room, like, oh my God, what if we organize this event and there's no girls there? How do we encourage these two girls from the Maker group and the university
53:21
to come and be a part of this project that we're doing? I don't know, and I guess it's something that we're always kind of conscious of. I feel like, at least guys, and I'm not really in tech, but just in general, in the 21st century, we're always concerned with gender issues and other issues of diversity, and is there anything, should we not be concerned about it then? Or if we are concerned about it,
53:42
are there things that we should be doing differently? Like what can we do as either community organizers or members of the community to kind of, I don't know, do something different or better or whatever else? Okay, before she answers your question, I have to make a comment. When you're setting your comment, you're like, there are more women than men in this space,
54:01
which is quite cool, which takes me back to my very controversial statement. Why is there being more women suddenly cool when there are being more men, let's all panic. So I think, no, it's okay, I'm not trying to put you in the spotlight, I just. I think it's cool, because it indicates that there's an inclusive,
54:22
like people feel that the place is inclusive, and it's like, it's inviting, it's welcoming. Yeah, like that's, I guess it's- Yeah, I mean, yeah, I understand where you're coming from, I think, but I'm just saying that we need to kind of change our mindset here. And really, if you're talking about diversity and inclusion, I'm not trying to be conservative here, honestly, I'm just trying to say that,
54:41
let's just not create the same barriers that you're trying to limit, such that it's not cool, also, if you're talking about, if you're always talking about 50-50, like in her case, it was 50 to 15. If you wanted it to be 25 to 25, when there are 30 girls and 20 boys, then let's all panic, that's just my attitude. And I mean, I know it's controversial,
55:01
but yes, that's my attitude, because that's exactly what you're doing now. And if you're, if you're talking about the root cause of the problem, which I think she mentioned at the beginning, it's about how we're socialized, I feel like that's the root cause in every case. So my comment here is, it's not cool, it's not cool at all, and we are back to square A. Yeah, I mean, I'll just add, hey, John,
55:21
women only just learned how to write about 50 years ago, you know, and it will take a while before we now learn how to code and then learn how to, you know, do all that maker stuff. And I'm just saying that, it's about how society is structured, you know, not, we originally, I mean, education was not for women,
55:41
then engineering school was just for guys, then it's just a matter of time before, you know, we have more women participating in the maker activities, that's all. And I'll just jump in there and say, yes, what Mathis said is, it shouldn't be a zero sum game. I don't want to participate personally in a space where, as we try and include more women,
56:02
we're knocking out more men, right? It should not be a zero sum game, I'm not here for a zero sum game. And the other thing being, also this whole brand of, you know, your bragging rights is that there were more women, is a bit of BS if you ask me. Yeah, I think I'm just echoing what they've said. It's, if you have women, you have women.
56:22
Now it shouldn't be then that we need to brag that we had more women. I think it just creates a, so what happens 50 years from now, if we create that, we'll have, we were male friendly, you know? So it perpetuates a culture of even the narratives we use and how we define these things that we're doing. If you're inclusive of women, then you're inclusive of women, period. You don't need to qualify yourself, that's my take.
56:43
If you're a man or a woman working in this space, the fact that they showed up should be enough. You shouldn't feel the need to defend the fact that they showed up. I don't know if that makes sense, but I hope John, we're not saying it's an either or situation, we're just saying, yeah, not a zero sum game. And just to probably add some context to all this,
57:02
which I think should have added from the beginning, the gender diversity case in Africa, at least in Kenya and Rwanda, is very different from the typical European society. So some of our comments may, a lot of the, some of the even Kenyan communities are maternal, is that, from the mother side? So our society is very different.
57:21
I should just comment to this case. So some of our comments may not apply, but in our case, in our communities, it's a bit different, yeah, just saying. I think we have just time for one more comment and then we'll have to close it. Hey, first off, thank you for sharing, everyone. It's been very, very interesting.
57:40
It's two very short statements. The first one, I've heard a lot of you talk about role models, like I don't choose to be a role model. It seems the problem with that is, is that you're right, no one chooses to be a role model. It's how the world perceives us. And if people perceive you as being role models, it's sort of out of your control. And it's a huge burden to put upon you, but I get the feeling
58:01
that you're all doing a great job at it. So thank you very much for that. Secondly, from my experience, recently a conference that I've been involved in, in the security arena, has had three grants for women to be paid to come to the conference. But they've been struggling to get people
58:22
to come to, the three women to apply for the Google grants. What I'm worried about is later on, people say, hey, there's no women here. How, how, inclusive of this organization, when opportunities were not taken. I, myself, have tweeted constantly to try and say, hey, look, there's some opportunities, but people haven't taken them.
58:40
And just when you don't see a huge percentage of women at a conference, it might not just be the case that the organizers are in-inclusive and not helping, or so on and so forth. There may be the fact that opportunity is not being taken too. So that's all I wanted to say on that bit. But thank you so much for everything you've all said. Thank you so much. And that's a fantastic way to close us down.
59:02
So thank you everyone for participating. I thank these lovely ladies for sharing their stories. And thank you, all of you. So a big round of applause to everybody. Thank you very much.
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