WikiLeaks, Manning and Snowden: From USA to USB

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WikiLeaks, Manning and Snowden: From USA to USB
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WikiLeaks journalist Sarah Harrison, who rescued Edward Snowden from Hong Kong, is interviewed by Alexa O'Brien, the journalist responsible for the most comprehensive coverage of the trial of Chelsea Manning, about publishing classified information, protecting press sources, and defending the right to know.
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thank you hello how are you Sarah Harrison joined WikiLeaks about 4 years ago she came from the Center for Investigative Journalism and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism for from researching a coordinating the publication of hundreds of thousands of sensor documents with media across the globe to make that information
accessible to the public on the Internet to fighting for organization's ability to persevere in the face of extra legal sanctions and the largest criminal investigations ever conducted into a publisher and its sources which continues today to protect not only her own organization sources with those of other journalists and publishers the tireless and courageous work of WikiLeaks investigation editor Sara Harris has widened and empowered public discourse in a manner of few of her colleagues can credibly claim for themselves were it not for Harrison's work argues would be dominated by stories about the imprisonment and prosecution of Edward noted by the US government were it not for her commitment to preserving our historical record we would not know the facts surrounding the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians by US-led engagements in Iraq's Afghanistan and some all you were understanding of full-scale privatization of intelligence it's pleasure to speak with Ms. Harrison that a and B so on April 25th the Department of Justice lawyers stated the multi-subject criminal investigation is into WikiLeaks and its sources continues a prior to that were quite quattrocento and Glenn Greenwald both made public entrances into the US on the advice of your account been advised not to return to the UK why can't you go home and while the UK has a unique and uh part of its terrorism law which is called schedule 7 on schedule 7 is about detainees people at ports so at the courts and many entrance or exit to the country and what they can do that they can detain anyone for questioning on no more than a hunch has just been prevented the use of around judgements but when you then or what we would generally expect to be the rights of someone being questions and are taken away you have no rights assignments you must answer the questions all your committing a crime because of my involvement in to you and very significant cases come for the US and UK governments that being WikiLeaks and stay in online layers of skill set all relatively certain that I would be detained under schedule 7 at which point for reasons of source protection I would not answer the majority of the questions and therefore would be committing a crime upon entering my home country you mentioned the Lauren Glenn have come back said the US on they have very specific set of sensors within which they did is that they are and we're going to collect debris and an important and prestigious awards and they just went for a short period of time and if I were to try to attend hand-selected I would not have been protections and so on this basis and its advice that I remain here in Germany why should Germany or any country Grant Edward Snowden's asylum well it's that western and it's a moral ethical but also they have political question this 1 and of course the legal 1 on the head the law around and asylum is that someone should make that most countries have signed up to is that someone should have been given asylum if they have and had missing if they needed to that political opinion words they face persecution if they go high but it's it's acts of dysplasia was inherently a political act and he did this because the US government was apparatus and constitution and spying on its and citizens I the In addition if he went back to the United States I think it is quite clear he would be persecuted if you look at the trial Chelsea the mind the ass
singer Jerry Hammond this shows and a record of persecution of the source of trees tennis by the United States Government so on these 2 bases life he deserves asylum in most countries in the world I think also more morally and typically having shown how our rights to be integrated with being spied on by foreign governments it would be the
correct thing to do for other countries to give the silence so therefore I think the more interesting question is why people aren't giving him asylum and I think that that is the to the US dominance and people at the statement's to scared we see that in the state is coming out of the German government to actually stand up for what is the right thing to do and the values they reportedly believe in an and so for this reason unfortunately countries are holding back and and I'm not giving any assignment that's the US government claims of the programs on legal albeit secret and Snowden has said that quote quote for me in terms of personal satisfaction emissions already accomplished I've already 1 as soon as the journalists were able to do work everything that I had been trying to do was valid because remember I didn't
want to change society I wanted to give society a chance to determine if it should change itself to for you would be acceptable in your opinion if the American public decided that they would tolerate being spied on by their own government on
so 1st the gained access and points you made in your and in the actual questions the the Government of course courses is trying to say that they haven't broken any laws that I think the regulations have made it perfectly clear that they have by spying on the incidence and in addition yes no use dominant that was was to start a debate and see what happened with that and I think he's made publicly clear on that his own personal view is that these and this surveillance is excessive so the question whether I would be happy if the US side it's OK I'm not a US citizen said to yeah what the United States that is and is not necessarily how I feel my government should be behave in these regulations have shown that and other government of colluding with the United States and the 5 I a lot 5 eyes
alliances and my country the United Kingdom on is a particularly uh a lot of self I and the question for me is my OK with what my government is doing or as allowing happening allow it to be happening to me on I think that the and this is obviously not a
cake man right for being rate it this is a very slippery slide I and I wish that my Government would stand up for my rights small the
larger question there is I think why do our rights profits old and writer in place to keep our personal autonomy to allow us not to be dominated by an outside power and with iteration of rights that we see is that these various revelations this is precisely what is happening there is a large dominance that is and that they coming into force and and growing all the
time around the world by the United States this is a very large geopolitical issues and you can see how the effects of this dominance and initiate this way with on things
like has to say on how countries still unable to its neighbors asylum all of and you see the way they're able to yield this geopolitical pressure with regards to things like the and and Climate Conference in 2009 Copenhagen where as they were surveilling and and so they use their communications to find out how other countries with its place in China and India and that conference and and I think that I mean when when it came out for example the mother was famous being spied on of course there was a little bit initial outraged by have but I do wonder maybe she suddenly that their thoughts loss for the contents of my calls maybe actually action start something my feet about this because you don't know what will come out and and what how that can be used so for me this is a global issue and then the other
nations around the world and I which should be standing up against this dominance and against the US surveillance and I wish my country would do that so governments obviously conduct foreign intelligence most governments to that can afford it exception of how is the nature of US foreign intelligence activities
pertaining to what's noting disclosed significant 4 different dead bodies
lying I it's I mean it's obvious that countries violated generally is say will have intelligence agencies and it is the nature
of countries to try and do this what is different about the United States surveillance is on its scale and quality so it's it's conducted on a on a huge
and a huge scale in an a large variety of means the ability to store this information and which is now at very low cost is a very good basis means it's very invasive with the United States as well that so abilities are and make very easy because of the huge budget which they have that
the budget has doubled in the last 10 years the number of people with national security clearance in the United
States has doubled in just the last 4 years is now 5 million people but this clearance that's the size of Norway I mean I think we'll be very annoyed if every single person in Norway was running around flexible and nation but it did we just happened we don't understand the significance of it when it's the other side the globe when these facts and figures that they tend to keep a of the hidden so this this huge pervasive and at great scale mass surveillance makes it inherently different to any other nations fine capabilities with something is that large it's quality changes in and of itself on it would be like trying to say that the hydrogen bomb is just another form it's obviously not becomes a geopolitical tool and I think that this this dominance in this and in this way is what makes the NSA surveillance and very different to any other countries and far more boring is something that it's
interesting your following the covered related to you specifically up you know it you know where the question was what is what's it like to be the WikiLeaks cleaning lady letters he a complete and I think part of that it's my
opinion part of it has to do with the fact that you're female
to be quite honest and there's an element of the and and also you know you came from the Center for recipes journalism and you're from us journals and fit with the new organization and and the like and I think the question that a lot of people perhaps don't understand is why would we can weeks and and your work
attitudes why would you detect another journalist source and for us it was more of an issue of why wouldn't we do it on we have a air at 1 of them cortex is about false protection on we seen a limit what happens and in these situations Julian his and been imprisoned has been detained and of course the whole organization watch the money trial very closely and so the presentation that happened that fact that on the US government with its as uh intent mission on trying to create an example of what happens if you tell the world trees you get thrown in jail they get for indicating on tortured and put in prison for 35 years that's the example that they desperately wanted to section unfortunately achieved manner yeah we felt that it was very important that there was another example of of what happens and for journalists sources for whistleblowers if you do tell the tree you can still have a voice you can take part in the debates that you have begun but it was very clear to us right from the beginning that there was no other organization that was willing or able to assist and in a way that would fully protect and so it was it was not really have a question to ask me about would be how it was it was just about doing it and what did WikiLeaks do what was the
on a variety of things from a legal advice
specifically out in the region as Hong Kong that he was in and and then there was the matter of and being able to get out safely from Hong Kong on which we assisted with and we negotiated a number of informal asylum office on so that you would have had somewhere to go and I had been over the state with him to you
ensure he was protected on the journey and then what turned out to be a month and an airport and to this and then 3 months in Russia to ensure that and he was protective that he could keep his voice on
and that he was an able to continue uh living as safe as possible to get you were able to basically witness what was going on and to deal with this for the world essentially yes I mean if
anything had happened inside he made a comment that are like Europeana parliament statements about how and he was with an organization in check divide organization at that time that had the biggest my friend in the well he's talking about Twitter account and whose annotators kryptonite slides and if anyone had tried to pressure him into doing something that he didn't want to
do then the world would have known that was witnessed there's that do you think the publication strategy of history disclosures to date has
been effective and given that it is still has talked about the fact that he wanted to be a he did want to change society that he wanted a society a chance to determine our it that it if you could change itself I suggest that that is an effective and that the 1st point to say is that I think that it's a huge success that anything who has come out and so on if you go history shaded become somewhere directly like in your time they would just sat on it and I think the Lauren Glenn been extremely bravely done great work on I think it's obvious with regards to the the and thickness of the publications that it's it's very US focused on so that when talking about the global strategy of this on if the information is come out in and outside of the US in our little sort of trips and in in places around the world but that there's a seemingly at random
and eliminate the 1 week can then next month a little bit in Norway I I think that this has a couple of issues from an hour from a global perspective out 1 is that you
end up with the process of normalization and habituation of the information to the global public on the it means that there's less to have right of course and in some places here in Germany for example suddenly within certain communities that have been on a decent house right of Germany is definitely 1 of the most successful and international areas of this publication but law is based here in and of course the a shake-up about has been working very hard on these publications journalists and I think this is really out has helped the impact here but it is not the case at all in most countries of the world and the to use the idea we know we're being spied on now is unfortunately have the most people the that reaction and I also think that for creating a change agent in those countries but also I would say within the US itself thanks Call me cynical but I think the fact that the United States Government something univer conscience is not a huge saying idea on I would say that the best way for and a real change to happen is outside pressures come and when there isn't a region coordinated regional and uh strong publication in certain regions that allow these countries to and get about crime patterns and come together and come together as a region strengthening each other than they have more ability to actually stand up against the United States Germany
alone is does not have that power as we have seen with the issues with the inquiry that's source of cells in here you know at
the height of Chelsea's three-year trial that you wish say to uh 120 offenses for 35 years some it was pretty much established uh that she had no intent to harm the United States and in fact she did as determined by the United States Government and the damage is not actually the language use in the trial it's it's impact it's probable risk in getting was of convicted on a probable harm standard by the Defense Intelligence Agency did a
comprehensive view of all the documents intended to of we're working actually tweeted out that he had found out that the assessment was low to moderate risk and
so you know the the Afghan War logs or the Iraq War Diaries Saadia rock for lots and the Afghan War Diary on the linear fit Tellegen sources that they contain these people but the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency reviewer determined that most people were actually already killed on the battlefield and those names and despite what might be commonly understood anti-WikiLeaks did approach the State Department with regards to Cablegate an offer to elect a privately lacked if they wish on these lessons record numbers and the legal adviser at the State Department Harold Koh his response that letter that says that WikiLeaks was a
continuing violation of the law was the basis for extra legal sanctions against WikiLeaks uh at that critical time for meaning student told work element quote I don't desire to enable the Bradley now Chelsea Manning argument that these documents were released recklessly and on review and I just like to say that this is sort of a common
misconception many actually sanitized documents before they were sent WikiLeaks just
FYI of you you clearly would agree with that the notion that publishes fallen redacted documents records after so when his
WikiLeaks word from Manning's releases from publishing letters and
you and thank you for explaining that and you would you were at trial and I think it's a very important
point that people often make is that the US government to if anybody wanted to try and say that there was any harm actually from this information coming out it was the US government that file and they're unable to had the whole reduction question has come from and is completely enough for the US propaganda that we saw it when we started with the wall of publications they recently come out with blood on their hands government which is to be completed press that people words accept this we were actually publishing how the United States Government had the blood of over 100 thousand people on its hands and we would tell the world about this was suddenly the ones that falls it's it's obviously completely well on that but this is something that they always do that they've done it since the fifties any national security journalist can tell you about propaganda attacks that that they have on have on them but it was a it was a difficult battle for us as through that period of 2010 and going into 2011 to show that this was not actually correct but the concept that information in and of itself can cause harm it is just not logical but it was on a page in bits and bytes of data don't actually cause harm in and of themselves and as he said that the United States government had you had to admit in the and that there was no samples from it so this is a large sample that we fought and made great strides in this armaments need very sad that's around the concept of redacting is now being on that because that's the end of the static pressure is now being loaded up by journalists as how this is responsible journalism to me actually taking away after history and denying of the ability to to you understand fully and have full access to documents is actually more reckless and we have seen countless examples in our publishing history of where things that the jealous that we worked with did not decide was necessary and the story to be told that actually when that document was published in Philippians have now become the basis of the legal annotators around the world the people the finally able to get justice there is if I may just so he won a good example of this actually from a to do with a German citizen and can give them on-screen who have had the same name as a suspected terrorist now this is a story that came from and tables but it was not actually chosen by journalists this actually just came out when we published the full of life and in full in 2011 3 has the same name as a terrorist when he's on holiday in Macedonia he gets kidnaped by the CIA secretly renditions taken to a torture camp in theory and moved on to Afghanistan where he will say to watch it
eventually the CIA has worked out it's got the wrong path and so Captain 4 months before dumping in back in the Balkans and he tried it for a long time to get and had to get any justice for what happened to him and he was
unable to and so we did our publication and he's found this table about itself which would be deemed have no public interest anybody before he was then find able to take case the use of tables and he and that that was finally a judgment made which which use the tables in the judgment so I think this shows that they're just allowing a few people to you to decide what we should know without giving us a full of life is is problematic for our whole history and for for justice for individuals I think it seems to me to think that the complexity of the of the global environment and the global
media and so you might need to you know for clients are also able to that exploit this subject matter experts from around the globe to look at our you know it's likely that you would see all the in terms of the many trial all of you you obviously have an opinion about this trial so therefore you're not objective there's nothing more objective than the doctor same this world transcription and the full source documents as well I think if you get a 1 page PDF what if what if there's a big box on the next page I mean
if you need that you need the phylogeny to see pieces of information within a context 1 star does not make a whole constellation it changes the nature when you see and you can build these relationships I think also there there's a with is the question that we found I with Table where we actually have said that the and media organizations because and apparently they would have an an and maybe some particular expertise in an area they were writing on and so the idea I nights and they have this data and then that they can suggest the reduction and we actually live we compared its and all the reductions where gt reasons of libel on political reasons and they went we'd be medialization is agreed to attack individuals name if they were imminent harm uh imminent immediate danger loss of life and and in fact they were adapting made use of large companies all politicians that where you know may doing criminal acts around well suggest that the whole process of reduction is actually corrupted and the reasons why people redact and not necessarily as they say so let's look to talk about this issue of said what kind of considerations this WikiLeaks make in evaluating
how the organization is going to handle documents that it receives an
as a general sort of principle we have that we we made a mistake actually theoretical lots of where we have adapted the much we hit this massive propaganda attack and so
we all started of the Afghan War logs so we started with the Iraq War logs to ensure that this could happen again and with the gradual process we went through was the essentially sources of weight everything was redacted and then we put it back out there so dictionary words with encounter sector what's you then ended up with was a dataset that was essentially completely unusable for the public on that this is an and then after having survived the is propaganda battle of that having had the cost case the way in which government in the medical has by the government could not have profound we have now understood that actually the way to a trade publication is you start from the assumption that everything should be out the public deserves the historical archive and they should know everything if the 1 the
hypothetically does need to look after reduction it should be very so this effect on it should be about immediate and imminent real danger to someone loss of life and it should only be on at times uh for a torque for a short period of time would WikiLeaks ever approach the government worry adapt documents in future but was with the government of
something else that I we have found to be and corrupting EVs saying and you know the Council the guardian ad today talk just the other day on the way he stood out explained how they go on to the White House about the NSA revelations and help them understand these documents and had also have that shows that quite a number of these stories and should come out so you can see quite likely that the government is restricting our access to this understanding by working by media organizations working with them yes we did go to the governments and we did it interact with the governments and the 4 Cablegate but the actual and details of this are that the government made AIDS government made a public and and display of how if we were to publish this it would cause harm to know what they were doing that was they were setting up a legal basis for intent so that afterward they say would you knew this would cause harm that for you intentionally did this and it starts there uh it's the legal basis and for a taste so of course to this we have to respond so I was contacted the Governments and instead as you mentioned on OK if there's harm went where is it what what can we do about it to which they did respond so I think this is just another example of how it's not even they did not really easy almost certainly didn't care about the any and suppose it on and that this is just another propaganda that at a time so would you start to see the organization ever doing that again approaching the if we needed to
respond in the way that we have there I don't see us of friction uh a government because it just on opens itself up to the lens on in in how
published each let me ask you this question intermediate WikiLeaks is more in the in the internet and you know in a certain sense it has a different view full source documents you know this is
the sort of search capabilities up even in publishing public information with many trial there is a need for that you having an archive that is
found in a particular way on Internet and its structure and to go away it's delivered to quot would audience the user in a different way of uh then there's no question for me and
there is a sort of that to use the common terms sort of disruptive innovation of a of of WikiLeaks but you know it's it's a publisher to the library it's a lot of different things in what ways you believe the WikiLeaks is different from other publishers like like kind of talk about traditional media the media and I think that
someone has to be at the front of pushing the boundaries of press freedom someone has uh have uh the depths essentially double standards and to take these head on and I think that we a pretty unique he set out to do this in the way that we are and are able to you and that we've decentralized enough we're able to we have robust enough structure that we're not beholden to assess jurisdictional pressure from a certain jurisdiction and then of course there is how I that is the fact that we will always have full source documents and the concepts and uh we use the term scientific jealous and and in the same way that scientists will always published there the full as initial data they work with to draw their conclusions in their analysis we will always published the full archival full documents that on and then there are these additional sources and I guess that it's an added elements that we believe very strongly in in creating the searchable and our rights ensuring that information is accessible but also usable for the public and we do do our uh our analysis and our own articles it these additional and elements and that we provided that we believe very strongly and that I would say synthesis apart from other organizations it when you look at the way in which the
snow releases have been on had done that also has the right to use that term with the NSA and how would you compare it to um mainly disclosures that against the Pentagon when you publish these disclosures then obviously very battles
that a large and taking on a 1 way or another the United States Government his name in features farm with regards to the Adams specific parts of the the government's that we use the way to use his battles with on the Pentagon has had a lot of spin machine in the place at the odd apartments in place on for a long period of time it's on it it's huge it has a lot of money for a minute the people that are that thing
articles and all the time say to go up against this and they they knew we had cable based in advance so they were already prepack you had Clinton fading out and
and pass this around the world saying all this might come out my uh the there's something that you need to deal with so we already went into this publication with them have been created a whole different points against that I would be the difference between that and the NSA is that they have been built on the concept that they don't exist and so variability you come back and attack especially right at the beginning when they did not know that this is about to happen is is far smaller than the Pentagon's abilities and to Berlin interestingly enough the WikiLeaks forces that risk through the 24 7 that is specifically set up to deal with the media because Clinton was about to go on a worldwide to work and and the task force that get WTO right that was the a CIA right here but specifically the state department high node for 6 months that a minute had likely disclosed diplomatic
cables and a new which databases from and so was interesting you know as I you know the hot release started to begin on that they been sort of complete surprise that they had already done you know the achieves nations from all the indices around the world are done review and contact their counterparts in the light so they they were totally pumped that I I want to know if we're capable doing QNA at some point if there's any questions from the audience that possible seriously out the 5th hidden at the little work standards with the here that of the anybody working with the 5th Mrs. lady over here has a question I can repeat your question if you wanted just and the so what this is what is and we're starting point you when his temporary asylum runs out on what exactly is actually going to do is obviously arm up with his legal team and he has several options on in that we can reapply in Russia for the same temptress silent and which is OK and uh and asylum loss year it's different from those that have an political asylum that that they have which other countries have which then is more a lifetime status but obviously he could also try to fly in other countries on I In my personal opinion is from as very badly how uh we think there have been seen to be displayed in other countries and for example Germany is that the governments and all the strong enough to actually stand up and say got 2 months so the government out of it and
against the questions use that I want to talk to you about was on when you when you 1st alive gives people had other piece and I know that the media for the at the site of care
within that town near 1 which which was which to me was that majority it to some degree of you know having spoken to you about my have respect for you as and then the work that you've
done and I think it's been really courageous and so at the end rigorous but still at it a bit
so that I wanna talk to you a little bit now that um that figure
after all it is is all about you know your role and you were I did a difficult thing because by the nature of the positive and the attacks that we get enough of a security that we need we tended to have not with the vast majority of staff sort of we don't know say exactly what they do because it's that easy to you and become a target I if an entire organization was able to be mapped out of exactly who did what it would have been very easy for a Ciera to to to start targets of attacks on Julian made a very conscious decision after have pressure uh from the media and said the a face to the organization after some some time when we did have 1 to to go out there and say yes I had up this organization and became a complete lightning rod so that the rest of us kids it have a level of protection so it's a phase with that sort of background as people started to become known but then I in it may be difficult for full media to understand and here we are I have found an interesting to experience tho in that I have worked with a lot of medial organizations they you know what I did because they worked with me on 1 set of applications so they know when I've done an X Y or Z and so its I found it very sad when those jealous that I have worked with and call me any the companion of slavery you all a on get cleaner is the other 1
and I will I organize the party apparently according to
some of what on so it's it's interesting as both why they do this and I think it's an easy way to try to legitimize the utilized the organization if you complain down everyone's roles it's just Julian and then some cleaners and parts of people and rather than the actual and legitimate publishing organization that's I'm biased but I would say doing a better job than most of them on so computer and so
yeah it's it's an interesting phenomenon why why they can't do this you know I'd like to talk to me about the value of our archives talked a little bit about it in which each has various types of documents I certainly had the documents other than just the Mannings releases as well so you know that 1 of the uh projects that I really like quite well as this plus the is the Public
Library of US diplomacy from can we can we talk a little bit about uh you know the fact that WikiLeaks so this is just publish sensors material that they also publish material it is hard to access yeah it's from the beginning and mission has been easy published and classified or in any other way censored and information that is of a political and historical and importance and we have always felt this and and the concept of having archives of full full sets of information and also with lives it's it's about so having these collections made usable and being able to create relationships between different sets of documents on if you have a whole archive of tables and in that way plus the the images for example is yes it's and a compendium of Liège tables will say declassified tables and and and it is now the largest collection of United States diplomatic cables and online in the well that's that's over the million and by searching using it you can actually see the relationship so far better to you to analyze and this these sorts of documents you can just read 1 table and then
you know it's interesting because immediately you in my discussions with other journalists and other organizations like for example the Washington Post the use uh you know plus the WikiLeaks every single day in their work in you can see stories come out that
link to it on the internet every single day so it's it's of an ongoing historical importance our guests that question when right at the rate of flow of within and below the plane the food that this it would take a time any of the the if you are still repeated so that's the sound bank
getting from well Holland Foundation and the features many network from scratch you on stage so the amazing thing I'm as we're approaching the year anniversary of the stones were prohibitions and develop search term we have absurd turn of events happening in Germany because now we have
US legal firms writing legal opinions for the German government threatened
parliamentarians and not wanting to acknowledge their communities where they to travel to the US so now parliamentarians also the very and difficult situations and the survey of 2 months to around for the government here I want to ask you what can we
select events Republic every of will viewers worldwide and in Germany what we
actually do right now do you think it's pretty wise to petition to the European uh High Court version rights or any other of campaigns that we should start now I think people are a little bit at a loss that would have to do because there is political inertia in their own government thank you and yeah the legal advice that you're referring to was very interesting I Because and it this situation see with the wire is that on the the minority are able to call the Snake Spear witness which I think basically the governments that have that health but had to go along with for a bit and you can see the source of tricks now coming insufflated way that they're trying to find reasons why they can't actually let this happen on so I think it's very important to keep the pressure on and here in Germany say that had the minority is is able to succeed on I think also that it is important that other countries in europe understand with Germany and say that they want let the US and have dominance over Germany and that they will support generally come when you if you if it was you to offer status silence so although it's the common and I think within the genome and on the political sphere by the topic I think it's also very important when you're looking at something like this that other other nations so I know this quite a lot of people here from the international audience but if people could dial and get that politicians these to standard solidarity with Germany and say that there is support that Germany would just have to stand
alone against the US I think that that's the way in which hopefully I am as someone can stand up against the United States Government and fewer the question about the world where want to move good so I can use because I can't hear you the answer um I want to have both world where you want to live is that a world where every data is free but free information for everyone or is it a world privacy is
respected and do you think it's possible order moving with the amount of technical data on US explored and it is not possible in the end and I think it is a problem with a lot of
the amount of data that has been collected in some ways so far and that actually eighties information that is private information on and this some backtracking to do if we're to actually write that's 1 which is a very difficult thing to do to try to say I don't know if still there was a document that came out and from the NSA revelations that was and from the internet which was an a guy talking about how they can attack as an addition tax system happens because this is the sort of that the hole to get into a full system on and it was very interesting to me was that the way so the psyche of of many people working in the this agency on and that was a that collected all let's get it all I know we've got too much but it's just so great I like and this is very disturbing to me that we
now have a situation where all of our personal information has been taken a collected in 1 place and then to backtrack from that to get these agencies to get psyche of these people to actually change is a is a very tough uphill battle and the 1st is the point that you the question directly asking there I think that there is on that and I I believe in the privacy of an individual's like past where I think they should be complete transparency it is all of and powerful people that are that have a dominant and our ability to dominate over us and that's where I think that that's and they should be full transparency and then when it comes to our history and creating an historical archive and being in the public records that's another area of information which I think should be fairly published on personal data of
individuals such as ourselves and I think should be kept private and and I hate this balance the problem we now have a balance completely of fields that we have government keeping everything private
and they're electing about personal information and rectifying this balance changes in few if it's a huge uphill battle and and had we we can achieve that 1 of the things is not oftentimes brought into this conversation as well is the fact that for example 70 per cent of the US intelligence budget is from private contractors contractors make up 50 per cent or more of the CIA yeah so there's also the fact that this is also in partnership with corporation and operational blame the government and the government blame corporations so operations that have the same means of pasted on at a liability and liability that that that governments have right it's a huge piece now it's it's the billions of dollars afraid of billions of billions of dollars of frames industry and as you say the line and now let between government and corporations on Snyder worked for a number of corporations on and had access to all the same information and so it it's a very it's very complex and how you actually start trying to control that I personally would say that the only way to do it is to start to do things like a budget as huge budget cuts and you really need to completely minimize the abilities of these agencies all it's impossible to stop it will just keep prior you I think also about the idea of oversight within the US Congress when you see the the fact that people for example most covert activity in the US is already approved by the intelligence committees have and the relationship between uh uniform er uh directors of the Office of the Director of National telligence CIA oftentimes work for these contractors that eventually develop these relationships with the government in fact in you ask what's interesting is it's not just simply the US government going to eat he worked
telecommunications firms and talking about what we need this for you there is this push uh you know since 9 11 for that public-private partnership where um this most of the year infrastructure in the US owned by private corporations so th of sorry the department homeland security and intelligence community have actually created an even deeper relationship between the 2 where you
have companies coming up with technology that they will sell to the government to uh for disaster preparedness or some kind of idea logical a reason and back really solidifies their power there is very little check against that I think that
this this it's difficult to check and also this essentially corporatization of the whole industry means that on
the actual reasons behind that become very different when you have so many corporations involving over the have very different and the reason to do something now government supposedly does have governments meant to be protecting us and you can see it for example in the NSA revelations but they say all we need these things to and stop terrorist attacks but it is quite clear that they haven't and it is said to be shared through these documents that these these methods are not actually protecting acetyl it is about and giving power and when you have invariably corporations the ability to check this becomes an almost
impossible there's also needs to sort of you know be a kind of cost benefit analysis about this you know is it you know what what is the greater hominid you going to go for the idea of a balancing test between national security so this sequence or unity and personal freedom of storing the winter nearly all right on the beach certainly is questionable because even of the organs that are in the
United States for example there are meant to up have deliberation over these important issues I really don't have to deliberation Army oftentimes Persiles sometimes a little confused about what's
going on of Snowden documents and my own opinion on because I feel like if if Congress was capable of oversight
then we would need see that student would have text communications with Member of Congress yeah and it's something that the US government has tried to switch to attacks
noted that that there are certain and and methods in place for a whistleblower in this industry to speak out on that they complete twisting it that I mean he was working for a contractor and at that time and these protections states exists and for for contractors and that he should be able to use the state going to be a member of Congress but I haven't seen what happened to people such as and Thomas Drake these protections that the government now is love and said
spin-outs just not actually there in reality and people's lives devastated by Thomas Drake tried some of those channels and and they just don't work in the US of any questions
it's something just I just want to ask the all the time and always doing them include you
get along and where I you and you know that I have to find 1 that will have
to all you doing and how you get along and ghrelin measures of few words so what do you the Republic telling you know you grew demonstrates the face of knowledge and little lots and it's been I've been
very lucky in coming here and that and there's a great community of people and that many of whom I knew before coming here and while
Holland Foundation and that's and it's a great organization that has helped us the banking blockade collects money for us for example and many members of that water here as a friend of mine like take about that of course terrible unlabeled data United States and have also been residing in size very likely that out when I came there was already a community here that can help and it's just going say thinking think it
good hash over here just a few days ago uh the Council of Europe has a publishing expertise on whistleblower protection in Europe which is actually not very good in Germany for
example on the wizard or protectionist only indirectly by the journalistic sources but there is no law which actually protects so
what should the Future of Snowden's do yeah the and comes what and who I can I think it's an
interesting thing with the concept of whistleblower laws the my feeling is that and there are pressures
within and add nations to try and strengthen that then also I think that actually the reality the real politic that the situation is that you get someone like an Edward Snowden's they're not actually going to be able to you have in real
terms and the protections that they need within that country they just battling that the too large an opposition I think that actually is what is needed internationally
is something a bit more like the Refugee Convention on international treaty where as a whistleblower from 1 country there is an obligation from other countries to take them I think that that's a much more realistic the I think that's what we have time for afraid of thank you is pleasure
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