6th HLF – Hot Topic: Blockchain and distributed ledgers: Panel Discussion "Technology"


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6th HLF – Hot Topic: Blockchain and distributed ledgers: Panel Discussion "Technology"
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Kossmann, Donald
Matzutt, Roman
Henze, Martin
Mohan, C.
Micali, Silvio
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Blockchain and distributed ledgers: Will the reality live up to the hype? Will distributed ledger provide a ‘reset’ button for the internet and other networks? Many of the primary privacy risks prevalent today are due to an increasing centralization of information. A decentralized network is potentially more secure but not without its vulnerabilities. During this session, a panel of experts will illuminate how distributed ledgers work, discuss their potential and explore how the world of finance and other application areas could be reshaped. Cryptocurrencies and their escalating, volatile values have successfully captivated the public. However, the rise to fame has not brought a thorough understanding of the underlying technology along with it and distributed ledgers remain largely misunderstood. A better comprehension of the technology is increasingly vital due to its potential ramifications in finance and regarding privacy. Distributed ledgers could conceivably reshape finance through cryptocurrencies and smart contracts, cure data protection issues with social media and re-decentralize the internet. In short, a chance to hit the ‘reset’ button. Simultaneously, the very aspects that make distributed ledgers so promising are the same that make it vulnerable. Though replicability, immutability and being append-only are enormous strengths, they are equally large burdens when used maliciously. The Hot Topic was coordinated and will be moderated by Eva Wolfangel, European Science Writer of the Year 2018, a science journalist with over 15 years of experience covering a range of scientific issues and technological developments and highlighting their significance for the public. In order to unravel the technology behind distributed ledgers and its potential implications, Wolfangel has enlisted the help of experts with backgrounds ranging from academia to industry. Through discussions and an open debate, the speakers aim to distinguish the implausible from the practical and distill how the distributed ledgers will further influence our lives. Experts: Donald Kossmann is the director of the Microsoft Research Lab in Redmond. The Redmond Lab does research in all core areas of computer science. In his research, he works on data management in the cloud. His goal is to make data in the cloud cheaper, more valuable, and more secure. Roman Matzutt and Martin Henze are working as researchers in the field of security and privacy of communication and distributed systems at RWTH Aachen University. Their recent research focuses on the technical foundations and optimizations of blockchains and distributed ledger technology as well as their implications for users. C. Mohan has been an IBM researcher for 36 years in the database and related areas. The IBM Fellow and former IBM India Chief Scientist is currently focused on Blockchain, Big Data and HTAP technologies. Silvio Micali is an ACM A.M. Turing Award laureate who has been on the MIT faculty since 1983, in the Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Department, where he is Ford Professor of Engineering. The opinions expressed in this video do not necessarily reflect the views of the Heidelberg Laureate Forum Foundation or any other person or associated institution involved in the making and distribution of the video.

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hello everybody welcome back and welcome
here from for everybody from the other session we started with this panel from the technology orientated sessions just because it was too much if we had all speakers on one panel then there's no discussion possible so that that's the reason why we split it up again like we did it with the sessions once again a few words about me because half of you don't know me until now I'm Eva I'm a science journalist and I'm writing since many years about new technologies and how they are going to change our lives and I am convinced that blockchain technology will change our life somehow but how is all as an open question we are in the very early stage of blockchain technology right now how will
this technology develop how are we going to do what what are we going to do with it in the future we see a big hype at the moment and of course the question is will the reality live up the hype and that is the thing we are going to discuss today so I would love to start
no I would have to say who we are who you see in front of you because again only help you know the people to my left we have si Mohan he's IBM fellow and former IBM India chief scientist and he talked about the landscape of practical blockchain systems the next Istanbul Cosman his head of Microsoft Research and this has talked about integrating blockchains into applications so to Silvia McCauley the own you want everybody knows I think and this tool man total right from your point of view Roman mattered and mati and say they more or less count as one because they talk about the same topic they are from a university and they do research around weaknesses of blockchain technology especially when it comes to immutability so I would have to start with a question the same question for everybody and ask you to give the answer just one after another but the question is which applications do you find most exciting well as I just finished saying in the other session I'm more into private blockchains rather than public blockchains and cryptocurrencies and all that so in that sense there are any number of applications which are already in production usage things like managing diamonds supply chain which is ever ledger there's also ibm's work with the walmart on food safety that's already in production and then with Maersk on international logistics basically it's called global trade digitization mercè being the world's largest shipping company so there are many non financial industry applications that are well on their way to becoming you know very commonly used production deployments of blockchain technology okay my my favorite application is called distributed IDs there's this famous New Yorker cartoon in the 90s where where you have a dog and a cat in front of a computer and they say on the internet nobody knows that you're a dog but sometimes you actually need to know that you're a dog if you want to buy a can of beer on Amazon you want to know that somebody is older than 21 years old so I like this problem it's it's actually a an emerging standard of the w3c I like the problem because it is it has impact it's kind of we can relate to it but it's also it kind of has been informing me a lot on what is necessary what are the concepts that are necessary and what are the concepts that are overkill because if you have an application as very concrete and has very easy use cases you can kind of develop your you can define the scientific or technical problem around it well you know I think the best application one we don't quite have yet because I believe it we should be bitter projecting out and my opinion is a Verity of at least of a potential for Humanity of having self-governance I think to me is what attracts me the most
because somehow our governance is all about technology right so even now when in the good old times where we're not whatsoever a dictatorship was only possible type of human governments and he worked on all quite well and then only you know representative democracies are things about which are linked really to way newspapers and means of communication and so on so forth and so on right now a waiver we have a variability but absolute for the first time to start actually self-organizing ourselves and vetti really not represented but totally decentralized and that's a big experiment they may we may win we may fail but is definitely big experiments and at least in my lifetime which dates me quite a bit I saw at least two revolution and a potential one as a first one is really the advent of the personal computer right I mean I really have this a technic instrument calculator then we have a really the Internet and communication okay we can send messages to each other quite well but the other one really to organize ourselves is more than just communicating and and this one is potentially another greater revolution which I hope to see in my lifetime okay so first of all I guess I believe like Bitcoin as a financial system is going to be around it's still going to fancy I guess but besides that I believe like taking blockchain as a potential way of getting accountable systems well like systems that give you guarantees on how they behave that if you transparency and how they work one thing could be supply chains or food safety I guess that's a very promising field probably you can solve some or most problems without a blockchain but there will be problems where you have like distrusting parties where perhaps like blockchain is going to help and I believe that's a very interesting space for further endeavors okay so yesterday at dinner we later on we talked a lot about data and user data of how they can't control the personal data on the Internet and I think this is also a huge potential for applying the blockchain to get accountability of how data is shared between different stakeholders and also get transparency to the users so that they know what's happening with their data along those lines so the Center for Disease Control and the Food and Drug Administration have been working with IBM people on that kind of topic the other thing that the Tapscott father-and-son teams book talks about is the fact that in its fully mature state blockchain technology is will be like the second coming of the Internet in terms of how widespread its impact would be on all of society rather than you and I as technical people I think Martin made a good point with the question which problems can be solved by the blockchain and I think maybe that is interesting because at the moment we have this big high there are so many startups and everybody has his own and her own use case for blockchain and I wonder if there's maybe a question that we can ask to find out which problems make sense that we solve them with blockchain technology and for which problems maybe it doesn't fit do we have a choir answer for that in fact in my slide deck if you look at the full deck rather than the slides I showed it's in the hidden slides there's one flow chart that the World Economic Forum we are some university people developed a set of questions to ask to determine what kind of use cases are appropriate to be done with bakhtin technology and which ones are the ones where you should use traditional databases and transaction processing and such but they have a big mistake there and I point it out in the slide itself which is or if you are dealing with physical resources or assets they say forget it you can't use blockchain and that's completely wrong to pick typical problems maybe that might be sources for change versus problems that are not suitable for blockchain technology performance yeah so I mean again this is the opportunity to repeat my talk so again I think you have to ask what this blockchain by you what is the value proposition and I think it it implements a concept of real life which I call witness or giving proofs that something happened and so it is good wherever you need proof in the digital world where you need digital proof and if you don't need it don't use it also prominence right it's not just anywhere yeah and I think so you brought up one of the most important words here in this talk it's disintermediation so basically the most fundamental question at least for public blockchains or Rock chains in general I guess is are they're mutually distrusting parties that cannot agree on a third party mediator so if you can agree on a mediator and it's not too expensive to use that then go for it and use it and if there's any possibility that that you cannot find such an entity or that you that it's really too expensive to to deploy it then blockchain might be for you but there are subsea when questions afterwards - to ask but this is to me the most fundamental one performance response time throughput New York Stock Exchange and Nasdaq transaction rates just cannot be dealt with even by private blockchains to be so but you say no that sounds like blockchain solves only very few problems right because isn't most of the times it's it's easy for people to find a mediator isn't it what so first of all the world is a big place and we do not know each other so how can we say that enough finding a trusted common person I trusted as many people I don't know when you trust but the possibility that there is an intersection is very slim so whenever we talk about you know we can always about mouthing on blockchain as much as we want but somehow the world guess what was to ever make a bit more decentralization whether we like it or not and so sometimes when and the throughput may not be as much as you want but what is the alternative if I know to go through a trusted third party and tell them really my innermost desire or price to pay is less than this yes and then we trust about that person now that's not very the way the world works my way is forced to work this way for lack of technology and it is our responsibility as technologists to change the way the world interacts so if you have a trust of trust issues block chains that can actually really help and the throughput will come but faster if he's not there you know you are comparing negative infinity with a positive number you cannot possibly win I'm gonna quarrel with this one I don't go in it in the most general sense in a way where you can deal with people who still misbehave and so on that you can get away from having to know the identity of people and you know as a result be able to nail them if they misbehave so in that sense governments and authorities and all that I'm just not going to disappear so all the in tracking and this and that that you do even when you rent a car or you know rent uber let's say you give a rating so this notion of establishing somebody's credibility and such Better Business Bureau all those sorts of things I don't think they are all going to just disappear just because people adopt this whole notion of completely decentralized and Trust free blah blah blah in a sense even in this Bitcoin world when money gets stolen and so on if you don't know the identity who are you gonna appeal to and then you get messed up and so I don't think the world ever will be in a state where you just don't need the courts and the government's and any kind of licensing and so on this whole libertarian anti-government kind of
thing I don't think will really for it anytime in the future become a fully functional thing without all the entrapments of law and this and that that we have authorities so you think we don't need public rock chains at all I still am struggling with trying to identify really compelling use cases for public blockchain with the same level of assumption that was made with Bitcoin we're all you know about somebody is the address and the public key otherwise you have no clue whether it's man woman whatever that I think just doesn't make much sense to me and I've talked to enough people argued with enough people across the globe ten countries I've given talks in in the last 18 months and nobody is well didn't try to use case for public maybe CEO can help us well you know I can help about disagreeing so so somehow so what is the case against blockchain out of it is and things will always be with us yes - what does this mean that we should not try new ways of interacting there isn't even sticking to money that we started with barter then we'd start we went in all to gold or precious metals when we went to coins when we went to check Fiat carbons and things all the forms of money continue to be with us even barter is with us right if I go to a neighbor who is a lawyer forgot a device then next the norm she's going to ask me asam my help with some equation okay so we not we call it a professional courtesy is actually partnered so the fact of it you know all things continue to stay with us it's part of our history so what is wrong about so however is that responsibility to an answer the set of tools of it to wherever she wants to interact with each other right so it's I think it is I have to come back to this witness because I I do think it it covers everything you're saying yeah if I go with Amazon I buy something I trust Amazon I don't need a witness what if I do deals with Mohan I don't trust him so the question about public permission blockchain is really about - I need a public witness or do I need a commissioned or private witness and there are applications for public witnesses right if you get married for example everything that the government where the government is witnessed today it makes sense to do that on a public lock chain because that's kind of the society doing that it doesn't you can do it in ways that it is and all that it gets even more complicated no no the question is what is witnessed I mean that is also sometimes you just witness that the transaction happens and you have a happy boy and Boo and I didn't so I think that the question of where the public blockchains makes sense is actually a question do we ever need public witnesses and for example getting married it is a public thing and you don't have much confidentiality there it's published if you start a new company it's published so all these confidential things and if you have confidentiality issues that you don't solve you probably don't need a public witness I think there are many situations where the cake a need to do with some of these sorts of situations where it might be recorded somewhere but not necessarily exposed unless you have a reason to expose it yeah and they might still be witnesses and there are government authorities or whatever but that by definition doesn't immediately mean all the information is open kimono kind of things do you think there are other technical alternatives to blockchain technology that's all at least part of these requirements we are talking about yes the blockchain is like a umbrella technology and again in the tour is that it probably in most of the instances of this umbrella just do too much in many ways and too little in other ways and that's why we get so confused about it but but to answer the question for I don't know I mean we we are inventors right there we will invent great new technologies and I don't know what we'll do and with it but for certain things we can make it work and and so that's fine if it's good enough it's good enough but we will hit the boundaries and we will get more inventive and push the boundaries and develop new ideas and they might be again disruptive and game-changing and things are at their infancy no the way I said it in the other panel and other session blockchain technology is now at a stage where relational databases were 40 years ago systems had come out some systems with all sorts of bells and whistles but you as the user is left to your own devices to figure out under what conditions which features to use and things like that they scoped for tremendous amount of innovation with base technology as well as usability aspects of these systems and so the IBM kind of read books and cookbook style guidance and all that this ample scope for lots of things to be done there too well let me just comment on one significance Iveta is a new object because even the panelists supposedly expect away object they can even agree what to the opportunities and so you seem at the west side of the panel compares book chains with database so emotional databases are way better than blockchains it's the weed Tennessee's everything because it's a question of storing information the summer side of the family I use it as a way of interacting and removing trust from interaction so you really see that yet to decide which blockchains we're talking about in some sense is both a and B but I think of it a personal ID believer that the value is not to try to emulate whatever relational database we're doing because relational database are going to be better a what a very good for and the question is misled to use for what block chains are best for which I think that I hear you say but in fact disintermediation and things like wait so we I'm not sure that we are agreeing or disagreeing about the same object without two objects here and actually I wrote two slides one listing a whole bunch of distributed systems technologies and another one listing a whole bunch of database technologies and I said blockchain systems combine many of these things so by no means are they purely database lisam who comes always look at databases look at that the basis what is the target witness if I want to sign a contract with somebody and I can execute it without the witness there is an example which there is no witness so I'm and saying you know it's a little bit you know is a new tool and it's part of our exploration what we can do for is actually important and experimentation is a very important and debates like this so what is really the killer Harper so to speak of this technology is important because it's a new kid in the block and it's going to do some good and some damage which figure out what is good for maybe should start a second round with the questions what is the the basic or the minimum feature that of blockchain technology so is it is it just just the proof of digital transactions or is it more what's the minimum that it it is a blockchain I would like to start with each of you at this time and go the other way around yeah I think the the most basic thing is that we have an event ledger it's especially for the public block chains that is that everyone has consensus about that this is what happened so to pick up service example again which we are unknown people are among around all around the world then we have to to agree on some common stage and this is at least the most basic property to me that that it kind originally came up with and we also see that all the developments that happened afterwards so but this is the proof of digital transactions right yeah but in a broad sense yeah yeah but I guess it's the important thing that we are talking about I mean we have distrusting people and somehow we want to agree on some truths or or state or whatever and that needs to be at least after some point
consistent and that's the essential property that we need see what do you think what's the basic minimum requirement I mean you have to go with consensus because I mean what is a society is not a bunch of individuals let the decided to agree a certain certain rules or certain side of information and behind now you know we are at a very dangerous spot because there is a plenty of big companies who want to tell us how to organize one cells in fact let's do it a bit more efficient then we organize you right and so we know vacillated says give us your data it would never have deus your data sure so when it says we are resourceful truthful it's going to tell you what happens so we have a consensus on whatever happened in the world just we know fake news right so i mean enough is enough so we need the waiver to contract all these tendencies we must as technologies develop an alternative which may be used or maybe not but at least we have a chance not to be huge the usual state which is some silent servant servant in somebody else's empire which is organized for us and i believe that we know is if even best enough not interested in an incremental technology for doing the mini mala which not to do for a minimal who should I do what we deserve yes proof of a digital transaction that's it and since this is a way to implement it but the value is proof of a digital transaction full-stop I ask later again with that but give more in the chance at first yeah so it's not at all a surprise that databases are brought up in spite of what Silvio said the whole point has to do with in a persistent way recording certain facts of interactions between multiple entities and I believe strongly that it's these business processes are workflow systems that involve something that takes place across multiple organizations with individuals within those organizations being part of it and so by definition as a result its distributed replicated state information persistent transactions of course databases are part of the picture you cannot just dismiss away databases as being something orthogonal to any of this so that's it basically it involves something where more than one entity organization is involved and hence there's this need for in a replicated way in a trustable way recording facts so that later on people can't claim that they didn't under it to something and so on so essentially what he is saying but expanding it to say it involves multiple organizations and things like that and with persistence and transaction semantics being part of it I would like to open the questions for the audience in about two minutes just one more question from me so please feel free to prepare and to come to that mic just line up there things a lot there's one central thing of blockchain technology is this this information is stored forever it's immutable that brings with it of course I think the two of you have have talked about that and your child but again 50% of the people here didn't hear it so maybe what is the problem is there a solution for that so especially for for public blockchains we're really the assumption is that everybody is able to read the blockchain and also we have the problem that there is this public set of notes that must maintain the blockchain it does store a full copy of the blockchain immutability becomes a problem if I can store arbitrary data that may be objectionable or even illegal onto the blockchain and due to the immutability it cannot be possibly deleted afterwards so this is a way to - for a single user so to say - to inject such content into the blockchain enforce other users - to store it indefinitely at least as long as they want you to faithfully participate in the synchrony maintenance process of the overall network and yeah this is a problem where we argue that most likely you have to prevent content insertion but it's hard to do it in a firewall way so that you just scan transactions before their end up in a block and say yep this this is content I don't I will ignore it because this is changing all the time and then you end up in situations like as if you're updating your antivirus scanner every day you cannot do it on a public doctrine system won't work perms like doing a bit beyond like what we presented in the other session we live in interesting times just like new data protection legislation and stuff like that and like if the GD P R gives your right to be forgotten or a right to erasure so I mean if data is not needed anymore and you can argue if all data that has ever been committed in a blockchain is actually needed forever or it at some point you could agree that it's not actually needed anymore so how do you implement stuff like that so how do you give people the right to get like past like information on past events out blockchain and in many cases that's probably something that you would need to implement but nobody knows how to do that so other questions from the audience no this is a myth that's being propagated by way too many people that blockchains have this bad aspect that once you write something there it's there forever and they say oh as a result put something off chain and traditional database systems totally bogus in the following sense I've spent my whole my life working on recovery and locking in transactions even in a traditional database system when you delete something from the database it's not like it's gone forever if you go back far enough in the log you will find its existence there so in that sense the blockchain is no different from a recovery law so unless you vacuum clean the traditional recovery log gdpr whatever that stuff is still there so the same thing as long as you start doing things like vacuum cleaning the blockchain itself it's the same sort of problem and the idea of forgetting some past stuff in the blockchain is today considered anathema because people when the initial is a new site they go back to day zero of the blockchain and then they run through the whole damn thing so they insist on having all that around but if you for the time being ignore that aspect the two are exactly the same it's not like traditional databases just because you deleted have completely forgotten what it what used to exist whether it's social security number or whatever the personally identifiable information is but I think it was easier is easier to delete things from a database at least if you know how to do it know even in a state database of the blockchain you can do deletes updates in-place update I was actually talking about this another session it's just that the fact that the history of what happened in the blockchain data structure as opposed to the state database where the assets that you're managing are kept that thing at least today is supposed to be around forever whereas in a traditional recovery long you could after you take enough backups and all that instead of archiving that old version of the log to tape or something you could just make it all disappear yeah an additional dimension that is open up why of the blockchain is that at least for Bitcoin and I believe also our cryptocurrencies people are just putting because they have their option they are just putting arbitrary data on chain so they don't even use off chain storages because just they can in a way and in this way so if I have a traditional database there's maybe there are privacy violations that are contained in yeah in a they they have a restricted impact so to say so they they belong to you to a certain owner of the database but with the blockchain it this stuff is on chain it is distributed all over the all over the blockchain network in a censorship resistant manner so why this is not the trend that faithful applications are following is putting all the stuff
directly on the blockchain this is something that is happening and that this timi opens up a new dimension of the whole problem yet another reason why I don't like open block mr. Mohan put up a lovely diagram of all the different actors that can be involved in especially in a private blockchain situation it immediately struck me that the most dangerous of those actors is the developer for any of you how much damage can an evil developer do in this world well at least the way the private blockchains smart contract development and all that is supposed to happen I didn't get into that discussion over there the chaotic state in which that import/export scenario is taking place today when you transform into the blockchain way of doing it the way you do that is for the different parties to that distributed business process having to sit around a table and design this new set of programs the smart contracts which clearly spell out the rules of engagement between these different parties so it's now a question of what all discipline you follow in doing that so it's no different from you know cord inspection design reviews and such things that you do for any kind of software development but in this case it's the different organizations which are part of that business process who have to spell out in the inner normal whatever natural language contract that has to be then formalized and then made into executable code the rules of engagement between these different parties what constitutes the level of agreement needed for a particular blockchain transaction to be executed which is a state change on the asset that's being managed through the blockchain excuse me I didn't get the name of the gentleman on the left as well my question to you would be where do you put the functional difference between because you said you don't like public blockchains so what do you put the functional and effective difference between private blockchain private authorized talk chain and situation where I would like deploy my SQL with you know replication what is the the functional benefit of so impaired the operations in fact I guess you are not at my talk oh yeah yeah okay this is unfortunate thing because I talked about this Export Import scenario where the different parties that are involved in something being exported from one company to another company in a different country namely the guy who picks up the package takes it to the airport and then the airline and the customs authorities all of these people they all might be using database systems but the kinds of programs that are manipulating those database systems are all more or less independently developed once so there is no single source of truth that's visible to all the participants in such a business process and as a result there can be you know inconsistencies between what's in one database versus another and such things so the blockchain way of doing it is a more disciplined way of implementing this which is what I just told Brooks where the different parties now clearly and has come to an understanding about what conditions have to be true for a particular blockchain transaction to happen and then it's the same set of programs that execute in all those nodes and they have this replicated database so it's still involving database technology and all that that Silvio thinks maybe is too much but but it's done in a more methodical way where there is more accountability you also involve all this public key private key and such way of doing things which traditionally we haven't done in a relational database and so on even in a workflow management system in the past even when multiple organizations might have been involved there was a single central database in which the state of the workflow was tracked they didn't necessarily worry about somebody trying to after the fact modify things illegally and things like that okay we can have a lengthier conversation if you want outside of this panel okay thank you hello and first of all thanks for a very insightful discussion and I have a very simple question and I would like to ask all of the participants so my question is if actually Bitcoin has any fundamental value or it's Ponzi scheme and its price will go to zero eventually that's what I've been singing so I'll stop at that I'm I'm a computer scientist I'm not any Khanna you have to ask that to an economist I I couldn't tell I couldn't answer that question any one of you wants to answer otherwise we have I mean for me it's a philosophical question I mean like who guarantees that the Euro or the dollar has any value I mean as long as you believe that at some later point people will accept this currency or whatever then it has a volume if you don't they're not I mean we have like countries collapsing and the country is collapsing and the same can happen this Bitcoin be it there's no inherent value but there's no inherent value in any not gold-backed currency okay I'll repeat what I've said before but I didn't say it here traditional currencies even a flaw after they were no longer backed by gold and such still have enough relevance and connections to the real world goods and services as regulated by the central bank reserve bank whoever which is much better with economists and all sorts of you know checks and balances that are part of governments and so on in spite of hyperinflation Argentina and such countries often get quoted to justify why Bitcoin makes sense I don't buy that because even in those kinds of surround environments there is still better control with more broad-based people with knowledge doing things than you and I as geeky people thinking we can figure out what the heck the world is all about with these artificially created currencies who is Nakamoto to determine what the ultimate number of maximum number of bitcoins there could ever be what's the basis for that there are such arbitrary things that are part of this picture that has no relevance to real-world goods and services so that's my complaint if you like so if you're into gambling go ahead and deal with all this Ponzi scheme whatever that thing is oh my god I thought to be because my father was a judge my grandfather was a judge to be a law-abiding I don't believe you beat me because you abide any law existing future because you think of it the future everything in some government to think that you know I must say you know hop-off is very hard to be so much you know law-abiding in business so listen it's a fiat currency also another experiment because you trust away the process of a central banks and the fiat currency have gone belly-up all the time so we are in middle Europe again now they are stronger and Empire had bonds that people felt it was no better than gold you no longer exists so I mean this is a fiction so ultimately we are all dead men the only matters is that what do we do during our lives and if a currency like you know the one created by mr. or mrs. Nakamoto whatever the case can be as inspired us to generate some different activity and even for so long how the effect is worth it ok so we have I believe a return of visa we have to be continually experimenting and by the way in a way in which you know we are going to be more and more closely manipulated and controlled by state actors some degree of a relative freedom even though they can be squashed by government is some welcome ok and there are plenty of
government are they of it they want you reduce even cash because cash is too libertarian right because wait if there is no cash they can take you out of economy in no time you don't comply with the rules you don't know why do you think you know you're out there is like your credit cards are canceled immediately you know you're really out of economy and I mean we found I had no particular lover of Bitcoin as an implementation but I think you know how both the two volition or Nakamoto I think it's a great dish who could have said ok that people were hungry for ratios in which they get scammed that is true but you know right now people will somehow decide you know what I've enough for Weaver Goldman Sachs and I'll doing all the IPOs and Reyna of the discounted price and then you come to me at higher price I want to directly participate is this good it's as bad no it's good and even though is going to be lasting for maybe a decade or two I think is a great experiment and we should say yes to experiment and we should actually endeavour to make an experiment better and better and better and more and more trustworthy I have a question do you have a Bitcoin wallet no does anybody here have a Bitcoin wallet okay so I guess that's the best answer there's some value for any number of suckers in this world so that's not necessarily like out of Silicon Valley 37 years I've lived there I've seen enough of these charlatans and all that doing especially the dot-com boom and bust era where people counted eyeballs and they said Oh such-and-such well-known investment banking firm or VC firm is spending so much money on this there must be something really behind it and all that lot of those things in the long run turned out to be all wishful thinking so having gone through these are you to judge about somebody who has a Bitcoin wallet if you go by the past there were situations where people use such logic to say there is basis you make the argument against yourself because if you look yes if it has been of the Internet boom and bust right so we are actually benefitting from the greatness of Internet right and if you have you say you're going to be scum here scum it seems to me but you know we are so lucky to have loot leaving the two thousands in or whenever internet come around we were better off without it no no no element ation a lot of companies wasted people money everybody lost the money particularly in but however a few companies survived and generated great products in which we are all better off okay so I think that the notion of innovation should not be lost and we had two people being in knowledge and don't get to know scared by about anything just you know roll up your sleeve and making these products better because of a sample itself but we need your cooperation unfortunately I have to stop this great discussion at this point because just because of time reasons but lucky thing is that we are all going to have dinner together so later on I think we can follow up with that question I think it's very interesting we have another panel session which starts in three minutes so I think it's no don't go I think it's time for one one last question and then we have to change to the other panel hi thanks a lot for the insightful discussion so in the morning dr. Sylvia said that block chain should be decentralized that's the way to go and in the afternoon dr. Don will said that he doesn't believe that decentralization should be the route focus so whom do I trust and where is the receipt I think you should trust yourself I think you know every one of us can make you know this case and a new master decide don't don't trust any one of us right more eloquently makes the case of private uh block chains and I'm a strong believer in public ones and for just one reason because mathematically if you can implement a public bulk chain you can make it private and no cost but the other way around is not true and second of all when you have you know a pervert block chain you actually think that you know the players are so we are bankers all right we want to have a consortium of banks over there there is another consortium of hospitals it's very relationship now we are banks the hospital guess what you know there is going to be some way to exchange DNA between the banks in the hospital right and anybody else and how you exactly you do it so I think that you are better off to a substratum which is a public blockchain in which you are free to create your own private blockchain on top but at least you have some way to interact with the rest of the world and if you think let's say Oh whenever I realized that I need to interact with another part of the world I'll invite him over in my own private blockchain sure you know easier fantasies to realize them there so if I want to ship some good from say unjú in China where I was in Arma just two days ago and and then you want to ship the via private track from to Hong Kong right a private track company then very is a Hong Kong porter law already puts in an eponymous flag ship to ship it to moneyline from there is going to find my way to blow up to Boston what am I going to do oh I should invite the truck company to be part of my blockchain because right then also a map or totally Devon Kong and then they saw a ship where is it to to belongs this is a fantasy so the point is we are going to isolate ourselves in a bunch of silos which tribalism has been always profitable and some politician now make it an even more profitable for themselves to the detriment of ours so sure there is a you know there is a need for tribes and reason need the for private blockchains but i think if you want to maximize the value of what you're creating you have to have the ability to extend your interaction with others which you have not yet planned or know that you need ever need to interact I want to close a one-one thing and many years ago when I started off inventing Eddie's to do public key encryption you know people says public encryption we are a private enterprise we don't need public key encryption because we know the food we want to send the messages public encryption is only when you send the messages to people you never know so we don't need it sure you don't need so how about yours disgruntled employees leave the company with a secret key hope services so how about the people who actually resign to go to a better jobs hopes I didn't know you know what you are all about the notion that if you are a 50,000 people enterprise are you really sure that the bad guys are only outside all 50 100 thousand of yours I are good now so it took a while we want less debate a few decades later is a deja view now we're starting the private blockchains cos have more secure its opposite okay you are better off to have a public blockchain and maximize your interoperability in a secure way the rest of the world wait at least is my opinion moron Aziz and you were to decide for yourself but this question was not about private or public proxy and it was centralized versus decentralized the private blockchain is actually also decentralized and distributed and so I think you were not answering the question to the question I hope I'm answering it is there are problems that you best solve in a distributed way and there are problems that are easily solved in a centralized way and what I was saying is to be a little bit more specific the problem of ordering transactions is well solved in a centralized way the problem of creating trust actually I think you need distribution for them I think that was a great conclusion thank you we do what we use it for and we look for the best solution for it and as I promised I can go on at dinner with a discussion and now thanks to all of you we must make a quick mix of the panel so yeah give the technical things really on your stairs thanks a lot [Music]


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