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Making Games with Python: Mission Impossible?

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Making Games with Python: Mission Impossible?
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Making Games with Python: Mission Impossible? EuroPython 2017 - Panel - 2017-07-11 - Arengo. Rimini, Italy A discussion about making full-featured, commercial games in python, both 2D and 3D. Looking at state of the art approaches to using python in gaming, we will compare the alternatives: pygame (2D API), OpenGL (via pygame/pySDL2), Unreal Engine 4 and the Godot Engine (with further comparison to Unity 3D game engine). We will also look at other benefits of using python in the gaming context, such as integration with 3D modelling software, scripting the asset pipeline and GIS data integration. Finally, can (and should) python move beyond being the language of plugins and scripts, and become the main language for creating game development projects
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so my name is Thomas levels of its
now and I'm Rico video games entirely in Python which is sort of my claim to fame and why am should today of would you and the idea is to have a discussion about whether I'm making video games in time Python is in fact a lot of viable proposition for us and I I have to guess with joining us that there's Roberto but who is the author of the unreal it engine Python point I get that right he's also lecture at the Italian Academy of video games yeah how we get a manual and is the got of the blood in for all notice a wrapper for you go to engine it's a Python wrapper for the total engine and we have all of them will get you and then we have martin result was a lecture and tutor in the Python and 3 D but this is so so that is my question and I'm thinking of seeing how to start this was on to sort of take this from from the back and let's sort of start with some strong statements and then we'll try to defend the later on and so just give you try to this this question immediately and ask you to give me an answer on like 1 to 10 maybe making these games in Python Mission Impossible 1 10 and why and will try to see with the light from and hierarchy so from my point of view the most important thing is making some kind of difference between the indie game and that Tripoli they are pretty different from the result to the money spent all of them in my opinion the meeting in games with the Python only by all means up some of the possible on this side of making Tripoli gain only with but would be a really of the challenge the what what if the using the 0 it's it's really to define what that he did you use node is we have in the with a lot of money if I had 4 5 people only the really doesn't know what abilities investors in in them so you may mean something in the less than 10 personal and we 0 warning for me and doing something that that that that know that nominee money and indeed you want something with special this is my own opinion of its the I mean I think it really depends on what your defining when you say entirely in Python because if you did In off in the end you always end up finding some see somewhere so the only question is what is the sweet spot between the departure ordering in the bottom doing Python so I think it's entirely doable to have a lot of your general logic reasoning by something like you the do in every line for example and mostly outside issue if you're sinking making gains in the in the nation gamma logic and not writing environment ionizing it entirely doable into Python and that's where I want to prove by putting present to I should give a mark so I'll say it out of the the you the so I would give it 10 if you give me 10 million euros and of course it depends what you want would want to grow Triple a in no on functional this want to make a mobile game what do you want to sleep unfortunately and in the but for a for in the game I think there is some chance if you'd have to say I want to make a game form my co-workers from the notes for continental don't pay for the games OK sometimes of and and and windows and then OK I was in the game industry if some years ago and it's really like this Mack Mack users they spend the most money on dense so what what might actor and put it in the in the up store and there I'm sure that would that would be a big interest if the game is good if it's named again you have to give it a 7 that question is why would I use Python to protect and it's really necessary wouldn't it be cheaper to just buy a license of unit is really your over the engine so if I go to a restaurant I think he would say no please take unity or whatever if it's me I would like to use Python OK but you have to think about that too so not so it depends what from ranging from 1 to 10 yeah OK so that's a that's a broad range of answers of I have to serve admit that I agree with Martin that uh and it's a bit of it's a bit of a bit of a stretch to to do everything abiding of which incidentally is this is what I do in my against implementable rendering it all that in Python out for various reasons which I hope will have time to cover that doesn't it's really hard to do but but I you know I can get a from you guys that there is there is a long you know there's hope of so maybe maybe on so try to be informative and and describe everybody in each 1 of us has been doing some approach of revert you've been doing Unreal Engine you have been working on on goto which has similarities of unity so obviously of Martin and I have had approaches which is more directly working with open GL so just a few quick words on on on each approach so that you know people who don't necessarily know what it entails to to work with each since few quick works on and everybody's approach it would when it's a stranger who time hope for me because it's like saying is there hope for using Python as the language for your name for your browser instead of just the making a game more a general meeting a softer does not necessary in requires a single technology that that acknowledges that preceded the in the Madison song from I bumped of your there are some the and of building I game in its game engine that can be done in a really good way with Python another especially from the Indian side of that in they what came so out so that you were using a such a high level of language the last year or 2 you're vitamin B bubble I didn't talk about me in open GL or in Python you absolutely is is something that we can we can do but nowadays there are a lot of technologies technologist I when thinking about the bigger the colleges like the awards the simulation of the flow flow hair and so on that in I really performance of learning densities that so from this kind of tasks that we cannot expect an idea 11 with language like Python JavaScript every higher-level languages can be it's conducive use the we can I hope that in the sense that the in future computer can be way pollen more powerful than computer so we can even use a less fast languages instead of relying on land CEO was the 1st last for doing it and I simply intensive just this is the only OPEC think we can have better harder for using softer that is not so fast I just want to move to ask before we move on to the shore the a big engine like can real packs a lot of points of this physics that's all these simulations and it's kind of difficult to imagine all this intensive CPU cycles being done in Python but what about a future in which all these little systems sort of
exist as well on the wall well-defined Python modules I know it's fanciful but just in theory given that the of a future that exists who yeah could be at my company really the bunch of years ago in our paper wrapper for but it's easy so that in if you know it's pretty friends physics that the use of union gg so yes it could be something new the we we you I don't remember what was the question in the 1st place that and the a I think of yeah like you said there is read to you like a schools there is the 1 who wants to make to use by serving as a reason the 1st language and write everything inside Python handle the 1 who kind of blood from an existing and giant I just want to extend this in January by some so I'm pot of the seasonal school and the briefing was goal is the call the screen off to just seperate dn giant and what should be the scripts system and so on you can really right your strips with multiple language and the 3 great thing is maybe you can even think about by some like uh part of your development process and it will be in the final product product because you find it's too so maybe but during development if you could use percentages try really fast some ideas I think be read like booster and the development i trade new idea and so on and you end up in the re writing everything suppose flows in the last months of the development you gain the now used approach to we use share binding so open just very all standards of commuter graphics from every day on a GPU supported to like in media Indian song time and and I I think it's possible to to correct some good games using pure open and bindings your Python result due bindings OK so you anymore but we call these 2 things and it works however the promise of a French before if the factor it the big game project and and I want them to to submit it to an AppStore IOS on rate etc. then out step approach and and that's something I want to ask you to to to think about that if if in future I mean if I publish game I don't know if it's big success and the next step is I want you to publish it to the upstart so what what to do and that's my my big question about that if I could do it entirely with Python then I'm limited in that what will I considered that since we're more of making a game and publishers viewpoints steam obviously and a PC platform you you don't really have limitations in Python you'll find distribute your code you distribute your Python structure models of Linux Windows Mac almost comes for free on the deep that at the time of the day uh released of our own because game that was a question like what we want to move to higher less and technically it was possible to put everything on honest but at the time there was a big uncertainty about whether Apple I would like to huh let you have a Python on an Iris device understand that at this point is it's not a problem it's all on both perhaps someone in the audience will know 1 or more up-to-date online information because I don't know for example on on on the PlayStation does this work on a lot of these of stores and the ecosystems of not really happy about I interpreted gone of and then bringing stuff and so so yeah it could be risky and I think and I think you guys it's over long it's it's still I think a more fundamental question then is about why why why use python I mean there if you wanna make a game you can use other languages of to the here the Python Conference that's what we're interested blood of the I think if you're talking to somebody who just wants to make gains so are there's a question of why Python and there are good reasons I know will will talk about them just 1 just how bad and the people who work is video games with us right now this 1 there's a lot of just 3 OK but it's it's the this is yeah this is what it is for a for a Python Conference this final there'll be more the following and so on so I think that there are other things in in a in a video game company that Python gets used for and university you you you have things to say about that so I think it's just that we can just discuss because the the big the big appeal Python is that it gets used throughout the development process and that's why would be perhaps goods to put more of it and to be achieved in you so I guess the videogame industry puzzled by the news all time Betty 1 of the referenced the thing languages in music specially and from the doctors point of view where they used to model through various marks a but uh in Blender and and so on the basic any items still have to metal animators there the mostly the pipeline mean there but what went from and I get from my point of view programming is a lot about the meeting task so that the best only is not a huge problem for me that I cannot speak to my and you know whom we got higher level of languages but it is very important for me to take a user higher level languages which a ability to compiler with all up the having income in stranger hair or that every and having to pay attention to any single line right and and so on uh and indivisibility is such a language tool the ultimatum simplifying my work is really really important more important than the ability to use it for every part of my the only we work yeah so yeah no cases so that's the that's the that's 1 part of it that's the kind of of people already working in industry will know how will know the language and and others looking I have like a list of things that did you can use of unity sure you can script of pipeline that's very useful of you're testing a lot of people use it for a server-side applications of games mature and depending on which again is that can be really important on 1 thing that I line and allows you a bit of an expert for is we put a lot of geographic data if your if your game is on a map that will happen and so on yeah so as as part of a broader question of which is you know how is Python beneficial because it gives you access to a lot of tools there in the Python system loosely it's it's better to put a question for you might you work with the energy of an so you can use that in your game that opens a lot of possibilities just corporate data processing unit I think this is really 1 of the best ways to go so we did a lot of work to some years ago similar to Google Earth and there we have to process terabytes of data for visualization of the words and we use Python on high-performance computing systems and the process all the data there and it was really great aunt and the coldest really tenable but that's not for actually the rendering the rendering was stone and in the web browser using wet yeah so that's that's pretty and but it's like this and but for the data processing part of the school there are many libraries like you that you that obstruction library for example in very can load the different
datasets etc. 1st really really what you want to extend the change back to OK and that for a data
processing part of General and I recommend using Python for the visualization part we have to use lecture uh um because the Roundabout represent resentful for that project OK so I have to do when we discussed also so interesting demo on your own talk which I which again uh because you were importing Python into 1 religion you were able to access open but still so you could you talk a little bit more about that manages the possibilities like that it gives you just by importing stuff unrestricted from the by consistent yeah the I think 1 of the advantages of using Python we now begin development pipeline is the amount of effort by the libraries that are available extension in this in the figure area activism intelligence Big Data management and so on libraries that generally are not available in other languages or became really painful to user using lower-level languages embedding it quite a little machine into of professional mn allowed me and the users to import that libraries and use them into something visually really powerful this morning this morning we assume it's you know it took about that thank you note about that these alleviation I was a really thinking about how much better could be that meaning that the that angel relenting we have we are seeing get a straight line as cheese in my mind that we can reproduce they won't have that the the the real side and we derive the right kind of to the and and so on so uh something way more begin in scale that we can we can do now so mean there we have the advantage is now using Python to an engine a real engine will is there a possibly to use this this kind of old libraries and the relation with 2 I say something really interesting because it means that you of bringing in a game giant to people using parts which means that you are free to scientists people are used to used in the past or in the good guys and and so the I mean read your possibility for them I think personally watching in my day job with people from the scientific background and I always liked them on the way to to show that and falls in 1 there's a don't even think about damage giant because it's spontaneous thoughtful working I just want to ask you guys to represent the facts here that sort of does that takes an existing go very capable game engine in your case it's a three-engine go by your case it's like an industry standard top-of-the-line engine not free but super and so you represent a section and and so the idea that it's wonderful life as we do your thing but I have to like OK you guys defenders on but it's wonderful but I input of your talks notice that they're like considerable technical difficulties of in making that work because both projects or recently that's the new year olds and you know you share the same complaints about the light 2 garbage collectors area think in both projects and then there's the issue of you know performance do we wanna go with chips to the pipeline pi to a lot of issues sort of come up with that on as is maybe just just so you shed some light on that is this are we are a sort of condemned to that relate to garbage collector as it has this really have to be just some input on well that I think we have been both really a lacking because we have a pioneer we we have the 1st people trying to do something like like that I suppose now that they real and you buy the beginning is really more mature a lot of erupted from the language is we we came out because now I've made a lot of research for them so they can start working on them and the ruckus in the same manner for the for the good or rapid I suppose now you will see a lot of work skip the languages that we came up yes the react and then but now we have some taking full we have some kind of lead to other to other older people to do these work it's not so much the attribute do yeah I think the trouble was a Python was added to an existing and I uh but I mean it would be really a simple thing to just create an giant suppose well when thinking that's a high-level scripting will be due in part from the beginning the lecture is doing a pan this really I didn't try it personally I think the chief something somebody else experience with it would be really interesting and that's really what that the food chain so bond that's really is 1 of the engine and the use little quite easily in the past these news move to hold door engine it's a low to be fitting by the from the beginning it so it's the architectural allowed for me to make i to make sure we buy them and it is our practice specific cases uh I have to say that the epic stop as meeting and legend has been very supportive me so be even made some of modification to the engine to always integration we live which we think and even the Google and you never have mule features to a little bit big phases to low integration with the with other languages that by lose bit of traction nowadays if we have a unity of really Tool that Norway more and more powerful but as far as in all plant is 1 of the 1st decay and you know we need a something yeah this does anyone know the situation with with unity and the Python it's not just hi herds that to some guy working on pi pi has just started to work on unity in Python but it is not in the room and volatility but if you say you should find some like white guys that you can asking them directly but you just a review of the staff for the moment that maybe will go somewhere eventually so I'm really curious about how they can do it without sources because buffer area hedging go at sources so how will take to review needs to be really interesting to you to this it by doing a unity up to the 4th better shown can we the and by like language who know if you have a OK then they suffered because no 1 uses the who don't want to use some South version of the book by you OK so little money and you and I are the side where we want to do everything by you we do we create our own rendering loop of we call naked open GL functions and you know we send or you know our data are buffers textures and rendered but in the last of the romantic so I don't I think that the fact that there are not many games out there to do that so speaks for the fact that it's not straightforward due blood of which had before Martin and you said that on you know a big part of the appeal of using of doing all of that In in Python is the sort of instructional value we because use of speech and so on the and in my experience I talked myself opens all like developing in in Python so you need we talk a little of the no open chill is really hard to learn especially for today maybe OK open show this fall into the 1st version the mountains in the early 19 nineties there was a time there were no cheap use yet so you could all the also use only
use the same fuel for rendering and this standard is actually still the same today however there are many extensions and new versions and the current version 4 . 5 has many new things and if you want to learn version 4 . 5 a day you have to program maybe but a speed to 500 lines of code just to render 1 single track and you don't only have to program Pisoni have to our and shading languages so that you're trading and which have to understand the concepts that we have to understand their have to learn the many mathematics you have to be good and vector mapped in a matrix modification is projections and so on it's really very very hard to get into and out and it's not possible to learn that in half an hour and that's that's a really big issue and learning Open due to the use of a set even harder than it was before so the best way would be to start learning the old version and then propagate but that's that's not really good solution so so you me time and and um and teaching in computer graphics and and the motor difficulties of sometimes I also don't know where to start to start to this the open show shading language or to start this culture basics it's really a tough so if you much time to invest if you want to create your own Brenda engine so the best way to go in my opinion today this get unity or another engine and learn principles there and then if you understand the basic principles of transformations of of all these things then you can try to create your own thing you know g that's my my advice to the but then it does assume that the future is getting into simpler we have a new API Balkan API and you know I don't know how many of your following the stock of the developments there are an API is designed to be the new standard by the Khronos Group the same group that developed open GL and it's in the year more low-level API which gives you a lot of power on and I suppose it's even more difficult to learn I began thinking of you think you worked with the Python bindings for it but understand it's very complex I didn't work right of but again we're going to need a good teaching tool just just dressed the complexities of that that's really is really big nasty piece of code now that will come at the ICM harder than than open to 4 . 5 2 and the even maybe want 200 lines more codes to render once and the try and so it but if you if you understand these principles then it's easy so so to make to attack on Sunni Tony 501 lines of code works stuff so it gets it gets easier and but all of uh it's it's a lowly OK so you have to do all things yourself you have to break your models you projection systems and so on that's really very low so to get started I don't recommend and using Balkan at the moment especially not using Python you have to wait maybe next year or 2 years the stable binding with you Our centers is initially the binding because I think that there's an issue with the drivers themselves but the implementation of all and I think of my my interest that you are at the moment there is almost no documentation and it's it's the prioress are not really very stable at the moment we have to add the to to onto the the big graphics companies and this new versions and then we can start creating a good binding there are tool bindings available at the moment but I'm not very good maintained of Python bindings are not really well maintained so someone has to step up and say that I created a binding and and a bill maintain this next 5 to 10 years OK so so the so so I think on our on our side of the the kind of people who want to really do everything in Python and the answer is still open GL the letter the complexity and then to complete the whole application you would need either fighting the war myself for use fires the all too but as you know is a high-quality library the temples of events and an stuff of the wrapper is really straightforward so you can use fires the all to that gives you portability on all platforms and because of use Python I would say that it's a little more low level but it's a really good and recommended over by doing this just the attached such more complexity but I would say that that's that's the so if you wanna do this kind of an approach that that's the but the solution this I yes I would recommend starting this to against using kind in some correcting recent events to to understand the principles how game actually works and then if you're if you know the basic principles so long and try OpenGeo environment yeah want to on it so you you might take wearable older but is optimistic I think a reasonable but more optimistic on the on the boat blog side of things so this seems to be the right now it's more realistic approach to get Python into an existing engine and have really nice plug-ins that will give you of access to the whole to the whole ecosystem and an understanding of the ability when doing work with triple-A students that use your plugin but I not necessarily for game play events so could you could maybe somebody's using it you'd you'd you'd know if they're using it you have to mention names just but it was just you maybe yeah yeah as far as I know no now other Tripoli still that is using a blinking is using it for their begin play they're not even using moving scenery alleging decisions of visual skipped into the still prefer to use super sparse because it is an industry that's his pompous discussed by their gets so it's really up through to remove it's kind of mind-set and they don't even see a reason to go to sees 1st custom the game logic because they have good programmers all we need it and their performance that the important point for the for all the other side of the development pipeline that they use the and using the Haley even for customizing Theodora completely yeah if you'll find if you are able to see the best out of all of us working with a real engine to release you Jerry you don't recognize that users are allegedly customize it to talk before the about pipeline redundant of people still I find it pretty normal to customize usually your main software to commutes it but as far as I know there is notably companies in Python for a for the new place I Leslie's think about this server-side forever I gained that the leads myelogenous at the thought of companies using the median using we'll engines using technologies and and so on so I think I should known example you online users of famous so game that uses the status that Python for a lot of its the logic so this 1 and I have and I've been viewed from time to time I will uh and it's hard to come up with the what but a lot of commercial games that sort of use python from game there is civilization for use that for for some scripting in events and modern and here and there will pop up but it's not a it's not a big Baker of ICT thank yet so this so I think this sort of covers every everything we use the chapter before we have time for for a Q & a the that additional be some questions from the audience I yet again and so you right at the end you mentioned aspect that's Python he said there would that be something you tried over recommends to beat the that say I wanna build the game Python should I Antsaklis or
can I use that this and I think you know like the user's status 5 and not for the game before the the set the the then it yeah it is that has for the claim part policy I don't know how they can benefit from suspects regions which in technologies and something that what's like a classic here and so on the I I don't know or was to answer and if someone knows holding using here in yeah I'm not going into the details of all of us that was so I suppose this should be of performance of I'm really don't see a huge issue with what I'm making the searched reading but it's it's a turn-based game not a full action in so it has a slightly slower real-time requirements I don't see huge huge slogans from part it doesn't have a huge performance effect it's doable basically I'm not sure about that most of that helps question OK thank you for this was very interesting but for the throne so from what you are speaking about it seems that graphics is like the 99 per cent of of the problem you are like you the gaze mostly consist of graph uh what about the other parts of the game of given minimal yeah some community and didn't problems in their own is just the graph is such a big problem that we started with that and to have some of these we don't even try and think yes they are talking 19 person about graphics because that's the most compute intense part of of games music style problem music makes a little bit CPU of in we will not I mean that the whole system you have to the chief you and takes most parts and and and if you look at the compute a power that is the today uh and B achieved extent I keep them in the house has this a power over them if you look maybe 20 years ago when you have to spend billions of the compute power of energy that's the data so graphics is the is the computer intense part and compared to that music and sound doesn't really pay too much away in that we but me here is that yeah because the the you and enters has been re-mating to good sold ISO some talk about it and the really big problem with all due and giant is the lack uh order and I and this react no lack otherwise you just you lose you go out of the game so writing a joint IronPython I would say that every time you have a little garbage collecting things like that even maybe it won't be feasible if you if you do a new a friend rendering because most of the time I spend into the graphical cult that falls you and I will read seats the events really fast the way yes graphics is the main part the wasting euros CPU power regarding the the purity logic after this intelligence in games we still don't use that reality from the economic point of view or activism intelligence we still use them the chief uh 3 select find infinite state machine via 3 something it works perfectly you buy them they're not have you know and In in resources that so from my point of view it as a region by company works because only legend take care of the traffic spot so in mole I show the yes the by the what's flood flow because they're rendering particles donor in with the engine but the building in at the 88 part
the whole of the purity much thought that would be absolutely absolutely doable and there at best majority of particularly games like the 1st assignment of uncharted you the it's game logic at the bus images the logic has been done at least the least dialect there left for there is another 1 using the uh screen I think is on the level languages scripting language in so it is very common for a game designer to use as the thing in language that you but you know it placing another although in all and they OK remember it at the it's votes without for their and for CNS the I for the rendering part and they use like it's clear that the for the scripting part for a game designer because we more profits and the use of a level language so yes this is the rendering bottom-most had you want to invest at the you you so a different take on that as a presentation by my 1 of the game developer and a working on this game which has had like real war happening in real time
and if you have 1 thousand or 2 thousand or something objects which the and that may need to act in every single frame which is 60 frames a 2nd not means that you have about 20 that instructions that you can execute per uh thinker and that's only possible if the music was so that in these sorts of things you really need to have performance so but coming on that obvious thing extend experience on using exercise so you could start by by doing Europe what taking Python and then you find hot spots in the new we write an insight but I can I I did so I personally so I can give you I can give me that answer but I don't know it might be a of a matter of personal preference so I'm not terribly into
and I think it's probably a personal preference it's a like in other syntaxes learning original Python and C so it is as long as I'm doing it might as well just a jump in to see how I'm actually holding the high hopes for using pi pi in this in this context of it seems to me the way to go wouldn't discuss the deal here but there seems to be some potential for eliminating the guilt as well so all I think site and it is if if if you can live with site and as a sort of settlers separate Python like language could be the solution but there could be other if you performance other ways to do it you can separate your small functionality into some small library well you could paralyze in some way or you can but yet we can use jet so only if you really really need performance so just a basic Python via perhaps selective culture no have you ever considered goods transportation from Python to 1 of the language model in which forms a in order to win that the resulting from an engine something I mean you you you asked why using Python form for the development of what you like so much the syntax of light and that's you you want to not using features of Python which is some that's and then by it to another language yeah some media if Y I like Patterson for a four-game for onto this part 1st if if for example and you will have on developer comes into the team it's much easier if we program python neutral comes with little experience in C + + it can really mess it up and give the whole applications like Spitzer through time so that there is someone messes up its memory leaks and after that no 1 really knows where these memories were created separate so using Python source that a little bit about quality but it's much better and then the part about transformation and not the kind of transformation the promise them at some point you will have to develop something and then dividing cold that was transpired is is really hard so that's that's not what I personally would not and do that if it received that project is not to both of them for use in Python I would recommend using all the language the 1st place and that's much better than France planning in my opinion but then you have to get to know that if you have a muon develop or we don't really come speak C + + you have it's thank you you OK looks like we don't have any more questions so I would like to thank Michael panelists and like to take you know I think the audience so hope we have this talk again but it's not the end of Python games this the beginning and you think your own see next month