Community teaching practices

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Community teaching practices
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Community teaching practices [EuroPython 2017 - Panel - 2017-07-13 - PyCharm Room] [Rimini, Italy] In the last five years we saw many groups dedicated to teach people how to program but any volunteer that is going to start a new teaching group could have hundreds of questions related with concepts order, examples, exercises, libraries and text editor/IDE. Panellists will share their experience when teaching Python to newcomers from different backgrounds as part of their volunteer work for some organisations such as PyLadies, DjangoGirls, Code for Life, Software Carpentry, Data Carpentry, etc. Among the panellists we will have Mateusz Kuzak, from the Netherlands eScience Center and volunteer for Software Carpentry and Data Carpentry; Alice Harpole, from the University of Southampton; Celine Boudier, from Code for Life; Raniere Silva (as moderator), from the Software Sustainability Institute. All questions from the audience are welcomed
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my hands and silver and we've all got 3 speakers we're going to spend a the we're going to suffer the field into the options so as
I said my name is still far from Brazil and they have a Bachelor's is applied mathematician on now work as a police officer for the Sophists entities stood in Manchester UK are contributing volunteer for some approaches that rich people culture program including soft coupling through the carpentry I went you always shot from the youngest goes the interested and if you want to keeping that you're free online it's on the G J I ACS yes most of the places so I gotcha handout you others
and I guess I'm a PhD student at the University of Southampton and so in astrophysicists there in my day-to-day work I model explosions and neutron stars and say I kind of wanted to take part in this because unlike the any learner say only started programming as being my undergraduate course and politics has lots of different programming courses so I high courses from computer scientists which kind of OK but very fast pace and I really struggled with an unbiased Hyatt's courses from physicists and they were in general absolutely awful and like hissing K change a few lines now you can program and so yeah kind of i've a mix of experiences that I'm and then more recently during my PhD I've been demonstrated in base of psychology courses and undergraduate to programming cause a numerical methods that kind of mathematicians and and yet you wanna see Twitter I'm of that think it so we're going to an ultimate use
vague the mine is not of I work at Netherlands sand center there so in my day job I am involved in writing features suffer but I work a lot with the searches and I got involved in teaching researchers program that did you the best program practices because I I think it's really needed I got involved in softer carpentry and I teach so the carpentry data carpentry workshops recently also library carpentry so we teach librarians about programming and mostly research librarians and I also training instructors now and I'm and or new instructors and I'm involved in this sting committee of silver carpentry so if you want to ask me anything about carbon trees thanks mothers something so hello everyone
and so trained as a software engineer from and stuff very taking France but but I think I don't my 1st computing concept by myself when I realize that could program my calculator because US nobody was teaching me anything else than lower point toward the were and since then I've been working in robotics and computer science and and now I'm not so I was for instance part of the ask no projector at oddobren uh we were added to running apps on robots and websites as tool have 2 children with autism and I am involved in that could finance wanted to me that a cut off awkward for laughter project uh where we create online quitting games to teach for children and computing so it's so it's in different and that interesting challenge to that to be like on side but to program or 9 games for the people that you don't really see um end or so that's not about programming but the more so volunteer uh to teach children creative writing at the Ministry of story in random but that's also an interesting to thank you so I could join
all or speakers it the so let's of this question if you could send a letter to your past self up 1 month before you have your 1st teaching extremes and by teaching experience I mean if you go for walk shop or if you trying to write that story on-line pointed trying to write our course pull it up anything that's related to teaching are what you want to write that letter for you 1 month before your 1st experience of interest subsidy in yes
I think I would probably write myself to 1st never take anything for granted we tend to assume that other thing then none of them are really so expect the unexpected just you know can happen so I would say for instance and I had some interesting experiences and in schools for idiotism projec when we realize that the teachers wouldn't use I where web applications and because of day uh proto cost that were in the school and preventing them from accessing our website tool we should have checked beforehand but that was a while ago and you should or so that's and some some training set where creating right now for quick from quote from life and that uh we thought were really even at 5 to 11 we realized that they were also used a lot in secondary schools because there's also a lack of sky is there so that a lot of unexpected things happening in you have to be prepared to and to literally everything that uh so when I started teaching that Chad integer programming I mean to get the university uh to biologists yeah but I think like something that I did next slide it's as started doing because I had to so that the teaching might be doing my phd training and and I didn't expect that I will actually enjoy it that much so that would be maybe like it's act like that in the letter that was actually fun and I shouldn't worry too much about it I think that's the the main instead I really like the if something is going like if something can go wrong it will go wrong yet is like the stress so much about and I think that for me say I a very recently I run the 1st calls where i've written material for the course myself and I was like the leader of the call often just a demonstrator and and summing up would have been very useful to think more about involves having loads of examples and laser exercises for the students and because to really get people to interact with things exercises adjust that that is to say much but understanding sharing people things I we have that comes like makeup exercises on the fly which is really not great such as having the listening exercises for heads would have been very helpful I think you're of I really enjoyed that is they like including lots of exercise examples in a forcible shot put as anyone that's has inexperienced teachers but you probably know that's lots lots of things are trying to include where 1st material so this is a new technical but since on icon conference but we have the documentation applied the plantation where is this like you have friends for the language and so on so if you're going to prepare our feature material opportune workshop what you to included like what was never never going to removed from your course all something and 1 extra thing that you probably going to escape from the Python library something that you've on the 2 yeah yes there and see as I teach painters scientists and and for them the most important thing is to get reusing number high and doing plotting very early on because then they can relate it back to their work and and sunny less important to them as learning about classes an object-oriented programming because this is a completely alien concept to them in an ideal bacon right have a good scientific programs without ever having Stephen any classes and we study found teaching this is just a steady fall them and many violent as weighty confusing of the it and yes could find it's interesting because since we were mostly for children 1st we have to for you do you kick your return and because it's mostly a UK-based uh program at 1st and and we're assuming that the most important things for teachers is to teach logic which thinkings into uh had 2 kids understand that rather than actual syntax so we put more emphasis on decoding concept so that's why actually we start with broke and then we teach Tyson and so that of things obviously that we don't teach from Tyson so that the act of which the most complicated data structures like dictionaries or even areas are kept out of data because it's not have for the 5 to 11 yet uh we don't really teach object-oriented yet but we do teach functions and we don't teach them the other day does like error management of things like that so just about the algorithm there logic we're thinking and how you can do that in by sending a very simple way the so when I teach the life scientists optimal resource library and 7 is like something between physicist and the child that so I have because so that a level of the avatars that the physicists are much more advanced in terms of that they they have been introduced to programming before and they know something and life scientists are like really they don't like they are afraid to approach it but they also because their researchers there really focused on like what they would take away like that they're investing time in it so they have to get something back and that's why you can't start with a interesting I know that this is the integer this is Boolean this is the least that want that they won't bite you have to start with something which is a really eye opening and uh like the while moment show them amazing plots show them how you can very efficiently do something and then maybe introduce and it'll be the basics but action just hope that they will come home and they would be so motivated they will start learning by themselves but we also have I've tried the viking values waving it but if you start with introducing legged so don't show than the Python reference the like at number 1 I think advice a but show them the amazing thing is that they can do and then they will learn from them think you by bringing joy that you make the comparison box of life sciences tend to teach a kid so if you could go with you to come that nice but so what the fingers like on a big different when you need to approach of people in different ages and backgrounds like Kate itself under grad students Sudan's soft developers like there's any suggestions like motivate people of different backgrounds all of which approach to you think that's interesting fall motivating explained that some of the concepts yeah yeah so I think I think that depending who you're approaching you really have to target the content and how to deliver the Conte there you if you lucky you're teaching children and you want to make it fun that you were with research is really like that that time is the the most that the most important important thing they have had that they Dravid to research published papers so they have to see what they get from it there for that never taught programmers or engineers actually make that elicit the same decision you here I've I I've been working hours has decision years for I think 5 years now I don't still don't know what the sciences and I'm not the need year it do right resource of and with keys so I I really would like to learn about how to teach in uh I have never done it actually so it's the gear so again did making it fun is very important but I think the key moment is probably making any ground it's a granted to something that they might but granted I was in real life for with uh visual example or even sound example x place doing with the teacher and programming with music uh for instance which we doing good for led to have to program van to go along side the road to make deliveries and the thing is that it makes it fun because they see OK so if I know about programming maybe later on I can also program games that that I can actually have friends monitoring you gained an entry teaching the just want to so the challenge and how it works well for actually making probe them under standard which accords thinking and the concept as I was doing before that is more important for them than just a syntax so for instance in diverse levels of bad rep ureter you only have like Japan and so this is a very small amount of instructions they can use it and move forward turn left it's trying to have to prevent a very complicated roads were later when we introduce like repeat loops it makes sense for them because they actually you know that they need the concept to make their life easier to adjust granted knowledge and I think it works really well for kids
and yes I think that means that this is a sum of petitions they really just want to see that there is going to be some use for these programming skills at some future point and say a loss here in Southampton and for the 1st time we had to aid and a Python calls for the 1st year mathematicians and I'm the biggest error was that this course is optional and 50 pounds so after 2 weeks the Sudanese continent there just stopped attending the last full stop because I like this amount finally users and and the notes were written in such a way that they just didn't relate to their course related to think that have any future he's that's and it's a really sunny that matters to the Vincennes and by the on the basically everyone you need to kind of related back to the their own experience and show them that is going to be somewhat to what they're learning I think you are this is a fan so if you feel that you have any questions you can just come to the front and then know we can do at that list of questions are at that moment but the continuing this our if you probably remember from the docking notes from 2 they she was recommended features from a few years ago from on saying are that every program of most of the programs on you made you creep in the think we as features we also mildew so what do you want to share any of our teaching experience that was not up amazing yes that will have I think so I think what is a very important so I don't remember that there is this is the think what when I stress out much and I want to make it to then it probably will go wrong and I think the most the most important thing is died I don't have a good example of like where when things went wrong but you have to what 1 thing you have to be prepared that the things will go wrong but also a the guy the iron in the same way yeah near as the learners quite each I learned so much during teaching that's it and every workshop every event that I'm teaching there is the opportunity to learn so if the things go wrong is just so that I can learn how to do it better and it's most like how to travel from things how like how to deal with situations that that 1st learn how to use situations that come out and then the you learn to deal with unexpected has a little bit better in handling unexpected things happening and CSA again relatively easy leading heating sessions and I run a workshop at quite recently and might had all the material all my office Linux computer but I was delivering a workshop my area in my laptop and I was like all who something while and it did not work I tested all the hard stuff for the stuff that was like like creating attested that but that kind of simple stuff I had not tested assuming it will work and that was a massive error on my I think that and for me the most and things they took away from certain was a really figures but it fell to the fact that that the point is about always think about so accessibility in which you can do better for and the users that are in front of you or behind the computer and so for instance we added a a diffuser research for our acquitting games with quit for life and death and we realize it was a good idea that we were working on an US app for our gain because there are some kids that contra use mouse for instance with Buddha things that you need to think about so if you have like a real-life workshop you might want to understand that it might happen and that's more important or so when I was working for that kids with autism and we denote robots so we had set up a big session in a classroom in Birmingham and with the robot I would class with the kids and the teachers it's a trap of course everything went wrong for us because of the network so we were like basically assess achieve intuitive robots and train to do lots of crazy stuff from there and we were switching like hell but it worked very there hard to however uh as things we hadn't realized and in our about was speaking in American English and then there was a game where the robots was and asking uh was imitating uh pink football and he was asking which sport MIT needs 18 and he was listening to the answer from the kids and 1 of the key denser football and Oliver but was that no official bronchi twice so care that the kid is at issue here you were right sorry and the thing is that and kids with autism uh tend to be very sensitive against and social injustice and things like that so I really you that awful for hunting participated in that so you need to really yeah you need to really know that's and you we have to think about 240 batch and um make their their kids feel OK that's OK it's not that people it's fine not to make an aerosol things feel like it too much of the failure so it's more yet teaching practice of figure out I really enjoyed when you say a lot about accessibility because most of the conference up just cycle but your question just opposition to the the of come back to us ability of most of the conference that trying to be inclusive and so on and here on this stage we have to vegans 1 group them for you and what we might expect for but so what do you have any recommendations for accessibility and symptoms of about walk I'm teaching material because I remember when I'm teaching him like some of the things that I'm always like make performance vary big enough for everyone in the room can actually felt if goats and the units such and so for for instance and online resources audiovisual games for instance that would be pay attention to and to you UX the user experience and details such as the contrast so make sure that if you write something it's not flat Dockery on black because sometimes it looks cool but Pepe richest country data and people can have the visually impaired etc. and more so if you have games which too much sounds in different sounds and things like that as well as visual it's trait can be a bit distracting so for instance um uh and children with autism might have a hard time and not being stressed with your gain and but sometimes give them like 1 of the some does the contrary they were tried for instance to fail so it's it to candidate of failure sound and so might want to be attention to that too and the so you there so things like a force the mouse forestry and try to find about different ways that you can make and engage with your uh materialist so and also other things that you can trade like board games that teach quitting so it's not only has to be about computers or and all tablets actually and so we I would suggest that tension to that but that we see the real deal is that and try to understand which uh and what you might and encounter what can happen if you if you can talk to Aditi tool to educators before that said you ways for instance a children if you want to or just a group of people you're going to teach to uh understand dying Accenture requirements and try to just took with them to see how you can make them feel comfortable and adapt to annotators to that so when we teachers of recover just as you if you use when we train you instructors we want them to make an experiment that if you're going to organize a workshop how to get from that from the airport to the venue by the way was they we turn and see like what what is on the way like what what all the barriers are on the way is actually that we sometimes there that and that and you try to actually do it that we don't realize how many obstacles stop there are in the way we we really have to make more effort like do this extra work to realize how hard or not hard it actually is I think it is very interesting experiment and have never done but I think like it just started thinking about it so I've ever did it with we've actual which but just like when you start thinking about it like how do you get out of this fast and gets to
the venue in I think is really interesting and it's so this might be as we have by an international audiences might be slightly more obvious to everyone else but unlike when I was on undergrad and before that I was always an old native english speaker environment and I just I've never really communicated over like makes much with people from other countries say I was completely unaware that might naturally speak very quickly and I use quite a lot of maybe technical or like less clear vocabulary that the non-native speakers is quite difficult and and sign allotting classes and they'll be some people say everybody would just starting their master's courses and then have been in Britain maybe 2 weeks when they take their 1st class I myself trying to explain things to them in their 80 struggles say I remember those 1 thing I was telling them to pay and to tie from them don't say full stop and they just didn't understand was like a doctor and yes it definitely trying to really make sure he's very clear language and the media yes it was a real eye-opener because I just was completely unaware of this before it started my PhD and quite how difficult it is intensive languages and the because of that you might be wanting to very often we that when when we uh try to help people with the low so as an example uh we add the subtitles to help people with a with few problems were actually without realizing we're helping out much more people that the targeted because of the use cases we have people giving talks with accents or like difficult to understand or with the speaking very fast will help people a which is that they come out a on the way so I think it's is also nice that this why it SRAM was a thing of sufficient and then I would say 0 so if you organize a workshop for those participate in some meetups and and the strawberries were so which to find a good time for instance for the event's so if you organize your even so you workshop by specific time all day of the week you might not gates and the same amount of participation that you might expect depending on who your targets are so for instance if you want to uh and if you want to make something at for PM you probably will never reach people that may be working switches pattern shown to to that thank you up there true as for question the theory the the the this you know and the just as the people in the and and about so the so the kind of yeah of have and so on the of the the the the so thank you are you know of the intercom against and so I mentioned before that and so from so we were trying to specify the horses and say that demonstrated the schools as with PhD students and on thing I'm porribly be only pH teach in the last common actually use this point and so you had all the demonstrators there's Python calls and not 1 of them could actually do Python and say recently the actually run a course to teach the demonstrators and say that when he she does have a lot to the often have questions they actually have someone knows there and and because otherwise they're turning out we can get any help I just say discouraged I'm not surprised that are useful for you in the 2nd mitosis Lynn do you enjoy something the on the on the on in the front question of the main thing that was really and actually using the commonly or all of the history of the universe the thank you for the very good question I think that 1 of this year's that you're going public up here from everyone sigh lecture there people at more experience with modern novelists try balance but I go to press award for the is because you and you that yeah it works to amend for children some of them we have like a different times that's of a job previous knowledge and so if you pair them together and a child which is an which knows more we so few valued and we were quite well and the other kids we probably were surrounded us we're talking to the other ones so actually that works for an itera generous level is even with different ages at Citrus yet so I also do that and it was really well pairing people the less advanced with more advanced but also like more general advice is then 1st you don't want to lose their and their the novices so you really have to you'd rather slow down the go faster but then URI scheme that you're going to lose people who are more advanced you have to make them easy and you have to make them feel important and like this it is so that they they will want to you yet engage so 1 1 way is making them the men like mentoring other people or like give them some tasks that some extra exercises on that the make notes on like let them Coleman or something on the matter is that you have so that they have to get the BE and they have to have something which has a the key it is important it keeps he something back so then then they feel like they have a role here and is very easy to lose them also because they will get prior to that there's nothing for them to learn here that so that's my advice and just kind of was gonna say so just having exercise as well as like the you finish this is easy now try to slightly harder thing and because yeah it's easy for the more advanced students to get bored and just completely lose interest and that's terrible because like that very of quite talented so you don't you want to continue to be induced by this and the the yeah so sometimes we'll get out to the just 1 moment to have 1 question that and then go to you of what a lynch comments I wanted to add to that so in in carpentry workshops who have had her so sometimes of a person like that is really advanced they're just making a helper there that's the that work 3 on 1 thing that they fought matter was willing say but of up in soften the department in order to give our thinking and that accruing stick you fall into 1 of the students and read as venture put the pink Cq way if you have any issue like 0 something on this commands not walking that's available and they need our help to solve that all eyes you need more time to finish the exercise and the growing seekers when they OK like 0 I finished exercise so this is very useful for those as instructors because of we can go to 1 of the students that fears exercise and say opium to try to make this sort the change of the people at the right finished against all my colleague that might well side they need some help so you can told what to ensure that something you want to know so going to be going this that the the the action of the time and have because the the 2nd part so what you same as the so we right and that of because the and the it was the the work the thank on we don't to the guy that you
of the was so
on the this yeah and something like this the and of the the and this 1 I I I I I did this time on the theme of the and so the the of the of the day and stuff like that of and what of the city in the past and not the kind of thing thank you the commenting on so in this room wants this is just 1 thing I think and this thing of who you pair also depends on the type of the exercise is that you're making so I think injured that stated that years that's a really good if you're doing something when you know that there might be missed exits attributed his just and train tool to help someone so running to sign and thinking about it together it's a trap that thing that actually works better so it really depends on the and you go into my much but much more of a so have a argument actually so very often like I see myself very often if you have to explore you think you understand something you think you know me well and you try to explain it to someone and you realize like item and then the 1 and the arts or like I like I was wrong like when I tried to think about because you have to think about a much deeper if you want to use is explained it so that might help but I agree with you that in some cases that might be so maybe I would get where money is of the please I you would like to do it and the you and the and and also the the man the to the and I and he have a you so I have an answer to that actually so 1 way we try to avoid it and I am also guilty of that yes I have a tendency of like trying to overpower so if if I I just show someone something I would try to take over the work this is something that we never allowed to take over the keyboard or never take over the keyboard yourself you sit back and you explain to the person who's learning and I think that this helps a lot with it so you could then you have to adjust to the place of the novelist and you're not allowed to it yeah over power basically 1st they coming are you on CSR undergraduate and my had species where you be put in groups of 2 or 3 and then we discuss your have worked with them a PhD student or tutor an and so on my computer science courses I was head copper computer scientists and as a physicist you by reaping coding for Mumbai was completely lost undersea revisions were entirely in at that case I saw there feeling completely shifted not understanding anything and it was awful I had to go back to be paired with someone was more like my level and after I was so much better than it was the worst experience the and so I think that could have been helped a lot and if the person he was leading the tutorial had actually encourage me to speak up because I didn't get everything wrong and I mean I felt like I acted is the and if I'd been encouraged to actually speak up because I didn't feel confident speaking front of these people you I felt knew everything and I didn't answer really if I'd have been cards lot more it would have helped yeah and Stephanie dangers of pattern makes abilities in that way the non just moments sitting to say something something which is not related to teach including but teaching creative writing at the Ministry of stories and so on and I was taking care of the and tool child 2 children and they were supposed to work on something like reading a poem or story about the pets or something like that and 1 of the little girls was like completely uh and response you should look like really sad and I ask ri UK what happened and she which is wouldn't answer and you the kids were not really paying so much attention to her so it was quite difficult who just not make web address really make her and happy people think what was going wrong and what can they do to have a and at some point the other kids and I I was with just started to literally takeover and scene she's also a kid that awesome it makes sense that and she that she she would do that so she wouldn't feeling did uh maybe the distance with me for instance and she started to sit next to a GOOD turn and say OK it's fine uh what did you want to write about your cat OK let's start with that sentence and shooter he started the story and you the key got and get into it and actually finished the pretty amazing story by the end of this section 2 was yeah that's awesome so it happened without meaning that the 1st quite quite interesting so thank you to raise the like that sometimes can be ventures through people when you pair in special when you force should be walking pairs of something that is not sometimes we aren't suggests that people attend a walk shopping groups spacelike universities all politics of what a committee workshops because if you have someone that's it's a friend maybe you you are going to be less scary of Mark friend which like the people in the same place about the people and doing true not a comment anything else of of was looking not just get a lot so the guy the black T-shirt and the filtered value and then you later the and on the you the people of what kind of the the the things know the you because there is and yes so I would say for instance games and making them understand that they can hiking to Minecraft gorgeous help
shape the word at some point beta couldn't creating website or creating games themselves which is related to something they enjoy and they treat you to make a lot of sense for them so integers 1 tool to go on and create something which tool and sometimes they want to do it because they want to impress and their friends etc. bits I think it also works better I and a wrong turn if you can make understand was real life example as Sonic by I was staying before is also useful because the example he's about music so for kids that restaurant that it's and theory Aaron concept and sometimes quite advanced concession even next threads and things that that they can do that actually makes sense when they start to uh program music with it and so I would say yes things that are really grounded and i in areas that and they would enjoy so you can always ask them like would you like in knife and you can always obviously find an example where programming may be useful in you can just and tree to to expect forces when I was a kid I didn't know much about computing but I was really interesting in so many different things like can RQG or art or and uh all of the and I realize later than actually or do series could be linked with computing because you could be uh programmer in working order different areas so we just across uh order cross-domain and possibility of computing which is amazing and so on so your question please what is the the of you and this you're great question and safer workshop and I helps out with recently and we have a so they beforehand and so it was very short survey it's trying to encourage people to actually fit outside the door flight questions and it is also and what kind of experience people had said you whether they're being like how often we did programming and what languages that may be experienced before and also what they want to get out of the falsifying of what they're interested in learning because that really matter we could tailor the cost to that meets the requirements yeah it yes so for the coverage is workshop this surveys there there you can also just have some kind of questions you'll for assessment good idea I think it works really well there are now we have these applications with the clickers so that people can answer squeaky a he he and you look at the distribution of the answers and you cannot just so you start start the workshop with an quick and easy questions and you would have some overview of the levels in the group and then you can go from there the input whenever we have something interesting erected return which is which state 0 9 and not seen people but actually we have recordings that you can win after each level and so you can win a coin if you manage to finish the level that you can win other coins you managed to get sort of optimizing the bits so then wouldn't teachers which are adjusted to quit for African C would coins that the students have and also easier for them to understand a quick glance at at the 1st session uh whose arguments and who's not and try to make their efforts and later on in the right direction the just this should not by going to her and then arches addition on is that sometimes its can be very the chief which is assessed how much people know because if you have something that's very long people were are not going to fill this free and if you have opened up open questions like you don't get the answers that you want from me something that was very useful was like if you have up breakfast before the war shop where people can and then you can start involved told the people and at least you as a few questions and then used have a that is not 100 % but but you have no idea what what was previous experience from people and also can prepare you off yourself what cellular expectation and what that the expectation of people that outcome for the workshop on 2 so I think 1 advice is if you have those questions for that for the assessment at the beginning you have to be very specific in those questions yes so you ask about specific things because 1st before our very bad in judging how good they are and the novices don't know what they don't know so they they read if you if you you if you want to get some good idea that it it has to be have you ever used the term in a window or the fact that they then they can answer I'm sorry I think it's also select and if you are editing a dietary she was born but there were some very interesting there were so about the fact that just beginner and advances it can be adopted different topics so I completely agree with that for instance in directed way we teach different concept that the statement for you to etc. and as its weight easy to see with the queen you're on which concept you might know on us and it's really adapted from Braun of 2 concepts and understand which when they understand unbuttoning trying to understand how you can and really teach that that notion but not just yet are you good at property you good advice and 2 kids and I don't know and someone I think it so we go which the later the better then we go on to you and then you go and and and and and and the and you the mitosis in the country so 1st I think it it really helps if the group so if you have a set of distractors and helpers it helps if that the more heterogeneous they are the better because then you can always fit in the different target audience and I think the other thing is there and I hope that answered your question but we try to elect we think that people with the best for teaching are actually people not very advanced yet so that it has to be people who would who are not novices anymore but they they still remember how it is to be an obvious and then they don't you to combat and say so they they have to be and they have to think about it but they they're not they're still remember and they it's easier for them to put themselves in the shoes of the of the learners I think that helps really well so at the works of uh the cabbages workshops we invite very often people who just they just did the workshop and we see that they're like more advanced we encourage them to go forward and become instructors by the 1st come as a helper and then the 2nd time come hasn't come out of this stuff is very easy to forget when he gets you get to advance to forget holidays and that what kind of question have what kind of challenges there inademing he's just stories we were still have something and that we do at the beginning of the session uh we take g exercise that the kids are going to make and we try to apply yourself to it very shortly by drawing something in relation to to do seem so for instance and it's not just an icebreaker that we do a to be dissension with kids and we do it also our serves as the it'll volunteers and we showed a cage which we have come up with so that can be for instance draw building and at each floor you protect your favorite books or things that you liked about some books it's a trend we order of bariatric to do the drawings all sovereign we tend to be pretty uh pretty dedicated to his but then engendered source so the kids know that you have done to and that you are just not the book that and that's actually not too damn exercise for instance so it also helps to put yourself in their shoes and try to respond you on creativity before and so I think and teaching the teachers and is therefore he imposes say and a means of a commentary before you do you do about become an instructor you have instructor training and and the material from there is like from a more educational perspective people you know about education and know about education concepts and they teach you all of these things and and see as outcomes of I did any demonstrating we had to get there and we had to do a cause and and was told by education people and I mean I it's that we all hatched at the time that it takes that these because they like we not to teach is easy and then I mean it is at least make us think about different things you 1 of ways think about say how still live and like less able students in mixed abilities and stuff and see a definite he's trying to teach the educators of that law I think helps so this is something that the cockroaches really think that we want teachers to learn from each other and that's why we never only the in the class yeah there's always average true we in learn how to get feedback on the teaching every workshop we after the workshop was down and we discuss and we get that from from helpers from their nearest we collect the feedback from the learners and we try to improve teaching we believe that teachers are not born there mate like you have to everyone sacks at the beginning like the 1st lesson you sack and he's that's an easy proof and the next works of your better than that so often you better you learn what you sack the most and then you try to improve that and you learn from other learners we tried to I try to teach always like always within people sigh like going to level to other places for the workshop so that can teach with someone else and learn their style everyone has his own learning so there is no 1 way of learning of teaching yet so everyone teachers in some other way that they have their there's a I mean OK so of the it in the the the the people and you have a lot the right of the heart of the lead I think you know and and the I the what you want you OK and so the thing you have a friend that many of the In the end of the and the people with you or you can see how it is that in the other stuff in how to get your view of the goal of this work you will be reduced from all of and the in and so I think is you can never really and she to you and I mean from my experiments I didn't know that of the drawings to i started my phd at up way I done quite a lot of programming and internal losses projects in C + + and and it's really suffered from not having use those intro it was awful and and I mean I feel once you explain to people how useful it is it's really is not that difficult concept mean understand how it works actors I mean I have no idea and but definitely just using basic thousand intro it's a useful I really think it should be industries like less than 1 and at the end and say idea the I don't design the undergraduate courses and if I did I wouldn't use that idea and not as a thing is that even in the curriculum at the moment the naive set up I might have words to sign new particles is and no just I was actually thinking at after you've took actually to out some things in repeat returned to accused of easy exam version contour to the kids because right now the only thing that they can do with their code is uh save them so they can save the workspace uh which is as they can start to level and say things but that's it's just the same name etc. but maybe we can find a better way to to to to teach them and still not being to that to drive but yeah so the version control is that they're being the core curriculum for so for carpentry a it's not for data carpentry there don't yet which we try to teach I find it very difficult to sell people are uh well 1 thing that I always show a I don't know how many of you are familiar with the piece the comic uh if you have a research program from probably do there is a cartoon which is it when they send so there's a PhD student supervisor and they sent by e-mail that PC bacon for and vector version 1 version to version 2 . 2 version final 1 bishop tool and In the end is that few lines of uh battle and that that's how I and they asked and that is it from year to you and then that's why we have version control air but it's super difficult to sell their how I try to do it now and I think that a lot of people will not agree with me but I'm really happy that there is the top of the user interface where I can show you searches this is the so key have users GT in the back you can use it like this and I said it as a collaborative tools so that this is how you can collaborate with Europe however researchers and you can set up a website with like 2 cliques you have your your personal website and once they learned that I hope that they will start learning what is actually behind it there there the and I know that not not everyone agrees because people think that we shouldn't be showing people we get that show them hot termina but I'd I'd I I don't think it works is doesn't itself so yes soldiers was all personal experience of me I teach give a few times of an most of the times those using just 1 file you so I have like 1 readme file and that's a modified and I we sat in writing some things and then we communicate standard you will check out the news and to be have and so on so learners stages get use it you all they keep script E R command line interface but there was 1 of ones so than on the last workshop the students she but as me so I use you didn't get how beautiful always gates like all all wise supposed to use that and then a photographer I understand what was my mistake my mistake was that I was only used 1 file you because they say I have only 1 file you public don't need to go back to the history up here just 1 value all I can just say we should different names and soon to be fine but then if you have experience as up i to develop it all adjusting program in any other language you know that's not going to walk that way because once you save the file root for different may they reach change all your ink blots so you is of having like the point food knowing have changed all your want to be but through to the bathroom 3 and so on so then I learned that in my mistake I that's enabled to use at least you files to make that a learning difficult much more easy for the students to get our but yeah I think that will be nice to introduce at the very beginning puts you quite challenge most because like as are completely novelists that someone that never program they don't see the advantage that if all of a sum up the you is you have a partial common yeah I so on the in the I the the and the and and the and the this on me this the world would you like the size of the the I'm not sure if Andersen your question can you go that the kind of the 1st and the last of the the I think had like it's it's very difficult use to say that because it's a personal choice if think like I don't have any cues up might be Japan something came very very bad but they think that maybe if you want to start a war proof might recruit but is which take time so it's like how much time it went to put that and trying to make the better put up to you and you comment and CS and that's your undergraduate courses quite often you see people and here they really struggle say in the 1st term by a struggling easy to every single session they cannot every session and the struggle so a lot you kind of wonder like is this calls the band like if you really maybe talk to them and by I mean in my experience in my 1st year 1 like computer science I struggled so much and it was just the course was pitched and because I didn't have the same background other students and it is always like T. false me so I kind of I mean now I write KI programs use computers that it wasn't just but I was not a good programmer which is the course was wrong for me and so when I have students like I really just try to find other materials and other approaches to learning out that I completed thinks it might just be the cause is not for them and they need a slightly different approach and to learning these things the yeah they are I agree adding this also relates to the today's keynote aah dance so many different ways to do it and then on the other hand I also think this is no that programming problem that this is like people like I will that people who are very good the mind to become great cooks and they will never become great cooks step and and 1st if there so that reminds probably if you tell them that they shouldn't they would they won't listen to it anyway so there and they're at but I think in the in the end this is like so heterogeneous topic word and all that but there are so many different ways and and also we have so many sterotypes around it that maybe they just have to find their own way of programming yet and that they would be amazing it when a death and and if you are my and I took on tuesday that was talking about and I get a who is a friend of mine and my boyfriend's best friend she's and she was toes when she was younger she could never be any good at math all Dr programming so some some went over that because she was a woman that someone has because so she was uh a not any good and nothing would happen because she went bad at a theory chicken mathematics and this what it meant that she could never be a developer I guess which is the venue for an hour and is just also this idea of Brown's it's mathematics or granted acknowledged that worked for her so this 0 so remember that the memory works were so in different ways some people have a visual memory some more energy during the moriori filling memory it's with and I think sometimes it's mostly about the different teaching approaches that might work on that work but I wouldn't dismiss someone as he said it's not for you right now I know so awful when you hear that's with edge the I got all the hands of the we going what's the guy that then you then you then you sorry to try to control the region which are all I just want your 2nd policy and our there is on the keynote you see on our law these learn and did sometimes this is the case of your friend most of all the cause they're trying to teach you with feed use all of all dual just stacks is sometimes you need like small visual things to look and this remembers me like when I was on my undergrad doing they a of the introduction to copulas and those mostly you books that people was using there's 1 book that was called was almost for dummies and there's another 1 that was like call was for PhD students of postgraduate students and like the pain of which 1 of the professors that you have because you just pick 1 of the books and even if you have like all other suggestions the readings but that's the cause of the the of the book of because like you moralist need to read that and sometimes you struggle because you're not on the strings around the middle and then you don't know like sometimes is that they get a few very good because today a size of sometimes like I spend 2 always 3 always almost was a very trying this exercise unless you on the steps you so all you are do you 120 of them and justice of something that uh teachers say they like most about that our repr which again is our area was which have OK to bison because it's a very visual way for the kids to have next to it that deluded graphical programming of the P and a text programming of so when the added rookie broke they can see directly ways green which is looks like in bison so just a way to introduce them to Python uh without uh going straight to it for instance and they can see that uh it's descended you just a concepts expressed differently in the different language and they have this studies visual thing going on so yeah thank you you have that the In this talk so the because of this and you will all some of the the the the the the and and the use of the word and the and so the the the and that is that the plot of and the rest of the and here you were the and 1 of the things not I and the status of all of the the more like the use and was you and so we like all so you the but that was so you do know this which I want to this you I'm going to the the school and you and they say in yeah so uh this is uh what 1 of the things we know that we try to show is that you can make mistakes and actually like you learn from mistakes and we so we actually like making mistakes when we teach yet we we make a mistake and cell I have a an hour now yeah and I think yeah and I think the approach each election teach more from the error but also introduce that there is nothing wrong like errors are normal that being that make mistakes is no more like computer doesn't explode everything is fine and it also applies to other so I think this is a the whole topic off like the few years of people this is that if you want people to learn you have diverse challenge their fears and 1 of the things that I have with researchers and I'm a big fan of open science open research a collaboration researchers are some at least are very afraid of but making the research open they they're afraid there be scoped whenever and or they after that also translates to like when they said programming there will be afraid of putting their cold out there on the top and then we show them out of it so you put your code and have as like the word didn't collapse like it's all fine it's not like everyone immediately looked at your code and got angry about like edge you or something no it's it's it's fine it it's it's OK so I think this is something that you can try just to show that it's not it's it's fine of and yes something I notice any undergraduate courses is you get some students singers a started plot the hands and every 5 minutes up up their hands because they just beta have to search for answers and sorry we teach using spider and say I really I always try to show them like this is how you find the documentation and I explains that this is how you read the documentation because if you'd never seen before it's not operate and then I should enhance like play around with the terminal in like try out different bodies to really explore how things work see definied teaching people have to find the answers themselves is stephanie a valuable thing to teach and and of it so if you read and in the front who had the question who the the you know that have yeah so on the back yeah i you on the going to shift the the and of the that was and some of it end of the sound and so the school and the other thing is that the the the right in what is the and the way that it is and I think of you all of you the this they got 2 and so on and in the ground and of and the guy on the on the and the danger on you and then you on the black 1 I like the and like 1st and only your in the form of communication that it was all the more you know to who go all the way over the and this that and the the rule of law and all that you know the each of the possible and I really want to find out more about the the I think that the grass and in have some the you might have to I think this is like all the Due to the south and the and the and of just like yeah some OK and right and the and this and that and you know what the people the the and In the case of and the the the and the and and this all of the data in all the world and this and that is what is what the land and you the the I think they I agree with you that's just to stop thinking about a problem but any comments from yeah so speaking of which were so so we teach children but we also have to teach the teachers 1st rights because we our games are mostly use including crabs and uh was the scores and sometimes the teachers themselves out the 1 which actually are not competent uh with best here's the don't know sometimes why they have to teach could is just because the UK references they have to but they don't this you see the point themselves uh thing to kids might be better than them and usually it's actually do case so the actually would ever hears them speaking of his they have all of them so that's where we're trying to so breakdown would the exhaust sizes to uh make it sound like it's not magical I think it's important because this Eckhard the keynote this morning so something that you want to look like your next pretend that babbler that at some point people think that it's an area they can never reach into and there's a problem and so for instance in in 19 uh we have a UX designer and which actually has um some front-end knowledge but he stops uh becoming I stopped doing programming because he didn't hear confident at all and also so he felt that programmers were people that knew magically you about everything in a priest added a new orders index of every programming languages and said projects could magically ends at some point we were talking about something because we needed someone to help reduce some front-end and I don't have a lot of front-ends James you do have some form that's can you look at that as the yeah but you know on the tree concordances if you know more than I do and say OK I have found that do about soaking sure is go good eaten we say OK you actually just program using will good yes I have content and there is a yeah that's actually a good thing to learn is that it's not like a mystery and we would like to appear like we know everything but that's not true we like to program we overflow and Google and I can make everybody and just demystifying it's uh it's also a good way to make people understand that they might not be afraid but yet is breaking down for things you still work for for uh teaching and the teachers then to so I do that there is very nice termed the modification and this is basically what we want to do we want to show there is no magic behind the ad like there is it's it's simple you have to break it down and this is how it works and people who do it are not magicians they're just like humans like everyone else yes and they learned it from making mistakes and yes say 1 thing I find really useful to see is like coding examples that here's the opener make so many errors and so many pairs and possibly even just that completely lost enough to google something at 1 way and it's a useful seeing the people who you think I just like magicians and everything they also make mistakes to you and say I think that's really helpful to have digit of you can of the background and the it was the and that sort of thing the and and this was a really and you the 1 of the the the world and should be and the and the tools to you in what there was such a it of on all on delete probably didn't you very much so I think of for your 2nd question about feedback 1 thing that it tries to do is like as put you few different back when this to you on the workshop because this increase the numbers are about the question I don't have any magic bullet for you put our controversy people have any good experience I want to think about how we cover the baking in of government was from this might with some friends but is that is that we use a lot in subsequent workshops and these are the post notes and then like many years for to see for example if you need help then they would be the you're at the key and that had a will come over and without disturbing the whole group a would have so the problem if we want to know if people solve all their exercises or like are up to speed it would be a sticky but what we also do we ask people to put feedback after the workshop on them so they put positive feedback on the yellow 1 and the negative on the on the big well but the thing that works the best is a one-up one-down and we call it and it's we ask everyone in the group for feedback but what we ask 1 person for positive so the good thing and that thing to improve is the next person but they're not allowed to repeat after them so it after the previous person so it after a while you come up with like more deep things and and they can escape yes so that language could not going to let them leave the room before they say it gives something like that yeah but I completely agree with that it works well as uh the so in software teams actually use things like a retrospective after this prince and and I did 1 size the Thinking Hats type of retrospective were at some point you have to any news and the people are forced to anything negative things about how it happened I could see 19 starting to make them that I don't want to say negative thing he and actually that's how we get the most useful feedback to to have his group as human work better so yeah completely agree with that and and another point on the feedback so you uh we are programming 1 9 games we squared difficult to choose see people interacting with so we put the other fantasies on user experience and having a user researcher in that we took tool teachers to keys to understand how we can make things better so his continuous feedback really uh but yeah it's quite equal to that was sometimes people in just 1 seed and a bad things to you so you have to say before they even your eye and you say I didn't program that you can say fits shape and it was so it's just can bad weather and then they will they will they will not necessarily tell you so you have to batten trend to that as as well and then he meets feedback can also work so we they put the comment on Post-it notes at the end of this session uh without you watching it as they might be more honest and yeah I forgot on then I yeah so I think it also helps to rephrase it instead of having positive and negative it could be what went well and take a look at for example and it's much easier to say something take a look at an angle to be negative now and tell you get uh and questions as much as they say is an undergraduate lectures please the handout feedback forms and it was like at least you size of paper and I can bring it to the next lecture and handed it or put it in this pigeon hole on the other side a compass and I never did not survive no I The Gary times I thought Evans woman had written off lecturers and he just be like this is terrible I know nothing you all full and so yeah just making it really easy and having by limiting the number of questions so if you wanna find something out kind of prioritize any but the really important ones because people are lazy and they're not gonna tell you things unless you make it easy for them but I know that to have 2 questions that put 3 almost out of time so I'm going to rescue her as you're 2 questions over language after the fall the sorry and note that only a few of the all the the that the so is kind of when I'm organizing try to press or the feedback to anyone 1 that's help me but just to connect with your question and try to finish this up as we know there's many groups who would why they're trying to develop licenses due to people put this collaborative part of developing the lessons can be quite challenge so this is going to be my last question jolt alters the panel is if you have a magical line and the gene use is going tube gave you 1 each of which is sold owing to help people develop and licensed collaborative what are you going true as for the the genius of a so what I would I would ask here in terms of and development I would say next stop people from writing their own lecture materials that the keeping the shelf so this is like the more like this is so much time like the time in the word is wasted for like you have all those lectures they would prefer the lecture that we get outdated the next year they wanted they'd that those yeah that no 1 can you use it I think this is super ways the so for me would Sarasota and something to help you put your ego a weight of between you to change so some people can do without noticing that might some our grant etc. investors were talking about diffuse but despair can be and grade if you hear your teacher saying things like 0 yeah that's that reprogramming between 2 that after or a proper would you do that or sometimes you can't catch yourself doing that that's uh that's good if you try to put your ego we and to make sure that you don't sound power that you sound inclusive that you don't judge uh with people have been doing because then the edges probably is white people fear of being of to the and pick up so others that you chew announcements so what primacy all open session today to 2 to the 1st 5 and then there was not the open session for creation our time over this for education and the and the and and and and the way that the the so if you want to specialist you open session just look on the boat and them how and all round of applause to all you that was not audience and just make this band of much better thank you very much the figure it