We're sorry but this page doesn't work properly without JavaScript enabled. Please enable it to continue.
Feedback

Who Funds FOSS Foundations?

00:00

Formal Metadata

Title
Who Funds FOSS Foundations?
Title of Series
Number of Parts
43
Author
License
CC Attribution 3.0 Unported:
You are free to use, adapt and copy, distribute and transmit the work or content in adapted or unchanged form for any legal purpose as long as the work is attributed to the author in the manner specified by the author or licensor.
Identifiers
Publisher
Release Date
Language

Content Metadata

Subject Area
Genre
Abstract
Have you ever wondered how open source organizations get funded? Not just the developers, but the whole ecosystem around major open source projects, either at a FOSS Foundation, independent projects, or an open core project at a company? Most major software projects we all rely on are hosted at Foundations like Apache, Eclipse, Linux, or Software Freedom Conservancy. Those foundations provide a wide variety of support to project communities, including legal and licensing assistance, trademark management, event support, and more. As non-profits, these foundations rely on donors and sponsors for all of their work. So who funds all of this critical support for open source foundations? Come find out what companies are behind the popular open source foundations and major independent projects, and who's actually paying for all of the other support work that's done to keep the servers running, press releases coming, and license compliance work. Surprises are guaranteed; I know I was surprised when I realized how many different FOSS projects that Microsoft is an annual sponsor for, what projects a few other companies supported with their cash, and how big one foundation has gotten.
Open sourceInformationInformationLevel (video gaming)Musical ensembleMetadataWebsiteLaptopLink (knot theory)Repository (publishing)Real numberComputer animationXMLLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
Open sourceInformationStandard deviationSoftwareLink (knot theory)Group actionComputer programVideo trackingEvent horizonLevel (video gaming)Figurate numberSocial classProcess (computing)MereologyVotingDifferent (Kate Ryan album)Level (video gaming)Software maintenanceEvent horizonAlgebraic varietyComputer programSoftwareStandard deviationMultiplication signSelf-organizationEndliche ModelltheorieWordTerm (mathematics)Key (cryptography)Shared memoryLine (geometry)Right angleStability theoryFeedbackOpen sourceQuicksortMessage passingWave packetBitCode1 (number)Numerical taxonomyInformationMappingAlgorithmGroup actionInternetworkingSoftware industryModule (mathematics)StatisticsNumberComputer scienceSoftware developerWebsiteWaveBlogConservation lawSet (mathematics)BackupBuildingHypermediaChainEntire functionOnline helpDiscounts and allowancesProjective planeCategory of beingGoodness of fitLevel of measurementHecke operatorMathematicsCoordinate systemTrailSorting algorithmComputer animation
TrailCross-site scriptingLevel (video gaming)Data modelEvent horizonService (economics)Computer programPoint cloudFacebookGoogolLevel (video gaming)Event horizonSelf-organizationSpreadsheetMorley's categoricity theoremSet (mathematics)WebsiteAlgebraic varietySlide ruleTotal S.A.Heegaard splittingPoint cloudComputer programDiscounts and allowancesWeb pageFigurate numberFreewareDisk read-and-write headWave packetQuicksortSocial classBitElectronic mailing listHome pageDigitizingMereologyNumberFocus (optics)Service (economics)Right angleLine (geometry)Division (mathematics)VotingWhiteboardSoftware testingPerspective (visual)Different (Kate Ryan album)Online helpOcean currentSinc functionComputer fileFlow separationView (database)Sampling (statistics)Web 2.0CASE <Informatik>Greatest elementProgramming paradigm2 (number)CountingComputer animation
Software maintenanceElement (mathematics)Computer fileIndian Remote SensingSelf-organizationEvent horizonLocal GroupAssociative propertySoftwareOpen setInternetworkingInformationInformation securityWordOpen sourceRoboticsEndliche ModelltheorieAlgebraic varietyGoodness of fitServer (computing)Form (programming)Different (Kate Ryan album)Computer filePerspective (visual)Focus (optics)Associative propertyNumberSoftware maintenanceSoftwareDiagramPoint (geometry)Covering spaceSelf-organizationSet (mathematics)Physical systemMereologyRepresentation (politics)Sampling (statistics)Line (geometry)Total S.A..NET FrameworkEvent horizonComputer programService (economics)Level (video gaming)Online helpBitOffice suiteSpreadsheetWhiteboardCASE <Informatik>CodeType theoryConservation lawVotingComputer animationProgram flowchartDiagram
Open setConnectivity (graph theory)Open sourceTotal S.A.SummierbarkeitAlgebraic varietySelf-organizationForm (programming)Open sourceElectronic mailing listMereology1 (number)FreewareQuicksortScaling (geometry)MathematicsEvent horizonSoftwarePhysical lawEndliche ModelltheorieBitTerm (mathematics)NumberFocus (optics)Projective planePairwise comparisonWeb browserCore dumpDifferent (Kate Ryan album)Representation (politics)Process (computing)Order of magnitude.NET FrameworkLatent heatComputerComputer animationDiagram
Total S.A.SummierbarkeitOpen sourceEndliche ModelltheorieMetadataInformationOnline helpVisualization (computer graphics)Virtual machineComputer animation
Musical ensembleLecture/Conference
Transcript: English(auto-generated)
Thank you, Eric. Pleasure to be here. Thank you everybody for coming. This is a wonderful day to be here. So who funds FOSS foundations? And a lot of people don't like speaking after lunch, and I do because then I get to be goofy and loud and I actually get to
try and stuff way too many things into the talk to keep you awake. Importantly, please follow along. If you have your laptop, if you have your phone, go to one of these two sites, FOSSustainability.com slash FOSSback. Kind of has like a high level overview of what I'm talking about with links to the data. And FOSSfoundation.info
is a metadata repository for FOSS foundations, which is governance things, sponsorship things. I'd like to add a lot more, make it a real research tool as well as a useful tool for us. So I'm expecting to see PRs by the end of this week. With a crowd like this, I hope that there are people who are like, oh, you missed this thing. Oh, you should add that. Please join in. I want these
to become open source projects. So I apologize if I'm speaking a little bit quickly, but I want to keep you awake. And I actually have three topics that I'm going to cover very briefly. Aspects of sustainability, sustainability in terms of social, fiscal, and the ecosystem of software.
Modeling foundation sponsorships. So all the companies who pay for the foundations, the major ones that host projects, we have some data there. And of course, actual financial data of key foundations. And my aim today is to leave you with some better questions to ask going forward. So I'm not going to be
able to answer a lot of the questions now. There might be a few questions I do answer. I hope to show a lot of useful data and hope to show a lot of questions that need to be asked and we need to be organized about figuring out which of these things in terms of funding and organization for our foundations are important. So aspects of sustainability. I'm still trying to figure
out if this is the right word and I'd love feedback on all of this, but I so often, aspects in terms of like different constituencies, we're talking about sustainability of the entire software ecosystem and the people who work in it and the organizations who either do or don't employ those people. Each of
these constituencies often has a different vocabulary. They have a different set of concerns. They're in very different worlds. So I often will be reading on one of the social media sites. There's yet another maintainer who has written this blog post about maintainers can't get paid.
Why is that bad? Actually, we have one that's maintainers being paid is a good thing. It's nice. They are very passionate about this and they're focused on how do maintainers of node modules, popular projects, how do they get paid personally? And I go and say, okay, well, I want to work with software companies and we need to work on software companies'
internal policies. Make sure their lawyers don't get in the way of contributing. Make sure that the development teams have our incentive to contribute to open source if it makes sense. Or heck, have the 20% day where you can do it on the side, whatever. And the maintainer's like, no, but how do we get paid? I'm like, well, part of the process of the entire ecosystem is getting the
software companies to understand these things so their business can be better integrated with open source. And then we can start talking about how they can have better FOSS funds or companies directly fund things. Those are connected, but when I'm talking with one person, they're often so focused on either their terminology or their concerns, it's hard to bring in the rest.
So how can we translate between those different groups? And we can't do all of it, obviously. Another one is contributors. So young developers in college, wherever, who see all these maintainers saying, oh, I can't get paid. This is not worth it. I'm exiting open source. How do we make sure that they can see
a path forward here rather than just going to a different industry or just going to some big company as a developer? We can reach some of them when they come into our projects or when they come into the GitHub world or whatever. But what they really need is educational institutions. They
need education for not just open source and not just good software development, but the rest of the practices around that. So when they come to a community, they're not just trying to put in a PR to solve something with their standard bubble sort algorithm they learned in class that they know you need to ask a question that's smart and that
you need to figure out how the community works. So where's a college class in computer science that's not just open source licenses, whatever? It's how to interact with the community. And by the way, your final project this semester is you need to land one PR in some open source project that has a process. So my question is, all of
these aspects, all of these constituencies are parts of solving sustainability. And how can we get a good enough mapping of the taxonomy that each constituency has so that if somebody here in Germany has a great playbook for actually
convincing government to say, no, we're going to run part of our government software with the open source process, not just the code, but the process. How can I take some of those messages and then map them to a taxonomy that I can go to a software company that's VC funded and it's like, yeah, we're going to do this thing and still use some of
those messages in a way that they understand because people working on sustainability, we're going to be sharing this kind of stuff. But I can't just take that policy thing focused on government and go to a software company. They'll be like, where's the profit for me? I need to be able to sort of translate the terms and the concepts.
So my question is, how can we find ways that we can all share to sort of get help translating some of these things? And how do we link key concepts like big businesses contribute to open source because it saves the maintenance down the line? And how really does that map
to governments wanting to have stability in their country software supply chain? How does that map in a way that we can say that same message to both sides, that we can have a thing that we understand both parts, we need to change our message? That's, I think, a really important thing for sustainability overall to like help everybody kind of think
about coordinating. And I'm looking forward to people making comments and saying, oh, you're doing it wrong. And please add this and all that. So actually, I'm now thinking I should have actually written some of them wrong because the best way to get something done on the internet is to either do it yourself or do it wrong and
then wait. But that's not why you came here. You probably came here to learn about who funds FOSS foundations. So one question is, most of the, when we think of who funds FOSS foundations, we probably think of, you know, Apache, Software Freedom Conservancy, Free Software
Foundation, Linux Foundation, things like that, right? That's what foundations, nonprofits, something you're talking about. And a lot of their funding comes from corporate sponsorships, right? So you pay some amount and then you get your logo on the website, whatever. How can we model these programs to gain insight? Because we all, a lot of major foundations have them. Has anybody looked
at all of them across the ecosystem to compare? Well, I did. So my criteria so far, and this is all, all this data is already checked into my FOSS foundations.info website. And I would love help with like displaying it because I
just use just the docs and I don't have any fancy graphics and I would love help with that. So my criteria are for nonprofit foundations that either build software or host software related projects. Publicly posted programs. So they have a sponsorship prospectus somewhere, whether or not it's called that. Not tracking events
because those are very time dependent and that's a very different kind of funding model, right? If you're going to sponsor an event as a corporate sponsor, that's a different price tag than just helping sponsor getting their releases done for the backup solution. Level amounts are approximate. So all of the numbers here, if
you're a math or statistics person, just wave your hand because when the sponsorship program says $10,000, that's not always what the sponsor actually pays. But the only way I can map that across the industry is by saying this level, $10,000 US, that's it. So I have 35 foundations
modeled so far and the schema for modeling them includes, I mapped all the sponsorship levels to ordinals. So the top, because that's often perceived differently. Second, third, so on. There are some common sponsorship levels that are different. So community
sponsorships, right? Those are usually not money or cash. It's, oh, this community really works with us. We'll, you know, trade logos and whatever, or we'll have event discounts. Academic sponsorships, which are often like that. There are a couple of other categories that I saw a few times. Tracking the funding amount per level.
So right now I'm just doing it in US dollars. So if anybody would like to help me update my schema and spreadsheets to enable other currencies, I'd love that because I need to work in Europe and elsewhere. And then the interesting thing, which I just started writing down as I read the prospectuses, and
realized I need to categorize, what are the benefits? So if you do sponsor the ASF at the platinum level, which is $125,000 annually, US dollars, what do you get? So my split up, my categorization is essentially there
are some sponsorships where you get a governance seat. You get a seat on the board or you get a vote for a seat on the governing board of that entity. You may get advisory roles. So I think it's numb focus has one level where a numb focus senior staffer will come to your event and give a talk and obviously give you
insight. That's useful. It's not governance, but it's still very useful. A lot of places have a service or event discount. The Linux Foundation, of course, has all their training programs. So at certain levels, you get 10 free training classes per year for your organization, whatever. And of course, marketing, press,
things like that, whether you get a press release, a joint press release, whether you get featured on their homepage, things like that, what size your logo is. So I read through the prospectuses to see what that data was, started looking at the actual lists of sponsors
on sites and I'm like, okay, I can't just do this manually. So I wrote some scrapers either with CSS or Chris Enzenik from the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, thank you very much for coming up with the landscape thing because for projects that have enabled landscapes, that makes it really easy to see who the sponsors are. So, so far, this is my data set that have
sponsors just modeled. I'm hoping, and again, this is online, so if you're trying to read this slide, please look online because it's checked in. I'm hoping this is a good start. Part of this is the obvious players and part of this was some that were
easy to parse. There are a couple here that are not here because people load things with JavaScript. So if you just run a little web scraper, it doesn't necessarily pick it up. So, and also this does not, this includes the Linux Foundation, which has its own sponsors and includes a few of their 200 sub foundations, but not that many.
So that's a big hole here, right? Just to understand, we're not looking at the whole industry, we're looking at a sample. So what is the, what data do I have? So at the ASF, Apache, like we can count the number of sponsors at different levels.
So we have, Apache has funding sponsors, which are a cash donation every year, which are not discounted in our case, but some organizations might. We also have in-kind sponsors where we have the same kind of program and it's essentially an in-kind donation. We map them to the roughly the same levels, where they're typically cloud credits because that's
what our projects need. Where for the ASF, we insist that we have an AWS account, for example, and they put the cloud credits into our account so we can manage them on behalf of our projects. And of course, these are only for things that we need. So we have a, I hadn't realized how many in-kind sponsors
the ASF had, that was actually quite a big number there. If we look at the bottom, the book value here is $1.8 million cash for those funding sponsorship levels and about $2 million of in-kind value. Which of course, that's the sponsor's price ticket on it.
It's not necessarily what the sponsor is giving us because they're just giving us service. So that's something we also need to figure out. How can I have one view of this that's from the organizational perspective? We're getting 100 grand in cloud credits versus from Amazon's perspective, how much does that actually cost them?
Is that really 100 grand or is that 50 or is that 25? That's a question I'd love help on. And of course, since I'm scraping all of these, here are the current top-level sponsors for the ASF. So cash sponsors, several of whom are also in-kind sponsors, both sides. And then just the in-kind sponsors.
This, including all the sponsors for every level for all the organizations is all up in a set of JSON files. So I would love help visualizing, where does Google sponsor the ecosystem? Where does Microsoft sponsor the ecosystem? That kind of stuff. So just briefly, NumFocus,
for those who haven't heard of it, it's a scientific and Python-focused foundation, but they host quite a lot of projects and do really cool stuff. So I wanted to include them. They have a notably smaller list of actual sponsors. And from their funding perspectives, this is about $1 million in cash
from their funding sponsors. Now, one big thing here is, the bottom line on the right is grants. So they list, I think it's the Chan Zuckerberg Foundation and maybe the Sloan Foundation and another foundation you'd recognize the name of as, those aren't listed as a level. So that, I don't know how to model what that amount is.
And of course, this is not their total income, right? This is just what we know from the sponsorship program. If we go up a big step to the CNCF, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, which is not a legal entity, by the way, it is merely a division of Linux Foundation.
So they have obviously a bigger list and oh, at the third silver level, they have a 614 companies, websites, whatever. I mean, I presume they're all companies who are sponsors at the silver level. And they have 92 end users sponsors. We generally don't give money
but do testing for them or something like that. That's a lot of companies who are paying money to the CNCF every year. So if we add up the funding sponsors here from what their prospectus is, this is $42 million in annual income, US dollars. And of course, if we go up the next step
to the Linux Foundation, the Linux Foundation is a US corporation, a nonprofit. They have Linux Foundation members who are sponsors of just the corporation. And this is the list here. And of course, we had to go to four digits because there are over 1,000 companies that are silver members of the Linux Foundation.
And this is book value of about $30 million. So of course, the CNCF is part of the Linux Foundation. And these are not double counted, really. I do have to say hand-waving because part of the reason that the third level sponsors, silver sponsors here
for the Linux Foundation is so high is because most of the sub-foundations under the Linux Foundation, if you want to be a platinum or gold or silver member, you must also be a silver member of the Linux Foundation. So many of the CNCF, for example, has, if you'd like to be a gold member,
the price is, I don't know, $80,000. If you're already a Linux Foundation member. If you're not, then you have to pay the extra 20 to be a silver member at the foundation and then also the 80 for the CNCF. So my figures aren't real money because some of those are not counted
when somebody's doing both and some of those are double counted. Obviously, for a Google or Microsoft, they join the Linux Foundation once and then they join all the others and they don't pay the extra. But I was astounded. I mean, I had scrolled through the Linux Foundation page to see what names there were
just to sort of look in my head. And I was scrolling and I was scrolling and I was scrolling. I'm like, this is a lot, let me go scrape it. And it was over 1,000 organizations. So that was, I found that fascinating. And so let's talk money. And I'll apologize, this is,
so those are sponsorship program models that I've drawn from their data. We're now gonna switch topics a little bit and talk about actual cash in US dollars for US organizations, and I'll explain that in a second. But before we actually talk about total revenue
and assets and things like that, this slide, anybody who's been at FOSDEM may well have seen this. So Kara Sols from GitHub gave an awesome talk on FOS funding and had a few of the same points I'm covering and had this great diagram of how do projects or recognized maintainers
get funding, all the different ways. So earlier I was talking about software foundations and corporate sponsorships. That's the sponsorship model I was talking about. That doesn't cover any of the rest of these points.
But if we do think about the aspects of sustainability, translating between different constituencies, we can see there's grant-making organizations, there's governments who have policies, there's companies of software and non-software types, there's VC companies, there's the maintainers. They each have different perspectives.
So any way we can tie between them is important because all these different ways are ways that funding comes in currently. So just briefly, I have so far modeled or reporting on the finances of 30 or 40 U.S.
non-profit foundations that do software. Because, not because I don't think Europe is important, but because in the U.S. it's easy. Every non-profit in the U.S. makes a 990 tax filing every year. They don't pay taxes, but they still have to report. And I can just suck those down,
thanks to ProPublica's Nonprofit Explorer, which is an amazing resource. So that's why this focus on the U.S. I would love to figure out how to do this for Europe, for all the countries here, for any other places. It's just, that's not something I can scale. In the U.S. it's important to understand the difference between a 501c3 and a 501c6.
So on the left, in the tax code, 501c3s are charitable organizations. So they are public charities. They have a number of restrictions on what they can do. Some restrictions on their governance. And if you donate to them, it's typically tax deductible.
501c6s are called business leagues. That's the heading in the IRS code. Also trade associations might be. It's not tax deductible. And their purpose is to serve common business interests. So essentially anybody who buys in, that's their purpose.
It's not the public good. It's not anything larger. So that's an important difference in governance and purpose for these organizations. And all of them file a U.S. 990 tax form every year. That includes not a lot of details
about how they spend money, but it does include contributions, which are voluntary contributions of money. Program service revenue, which is in most cases, our cases, running events. So the Linux Foundation, Numb Focus, the ESF. Some of us run a lot of events and ticket sales for those is a service we're doing as part of our thing. That's counted separately as income.
Total revenue, total expenses, assets, and of course, in the U.S. it covers board and officers, which would be neat to see sort of like a map of who is a director in all the different foundations. So my question is, to think about later, how can we do this kind of work across Europe,
both getting financial numbers, one, and then two, how do we understand what the difference is between each of the kinds of charitable organizations that are purely charitably or part charitable or just nonprofit. I would love help understanding that because it's very different. So for the U.S., I've sucked down thanks to ProPublica,
the top line numbers for all these foundations in a nice big spreadsheet, why not? These are all the 501c3s, public charities. And a couple are bold. The Epitronic Frontier Foundation, Wikimedia, and Mozilla, which we'll talk about in just a second. They're a little bit different.
And I've also modeled these 501c6 nonprofit software foundations in the U.S. Again, Linux Foundation is bold, it's a little bit different than the rest. And .NET Foundation is still there, at least it was of two years ago. So, oh, let's explore some finances, actual numbers. OneNote, nonprofits often file their taxes late
because if they're volunteers like Apache, then we don't have the people. And then the IRS takes the form and then the IRS kind of waits for a while and then they release it as a data set and then somebody else has to parse it. So all these tax numbers are at least one,
if not two years old. That's just part of that system. But they are all public. So, thinking about public charities, the C3 organizations in the U.S., let's look at revenues of, I just picked a sample representative of things I hope everybody recognizes most of these names.
So, NumFocus, the Software Freedom Conservancy, there's a second line here, the Apache Software Foundation, of course, and Software in the Public Interest, SPI, is a fiscal host. They don't have much of a website, but they are a fiscal host for, I don't know, 20 or 30 projects.
So these are annual revenues in U.S. dollars from 2012 through 2022. Okay, so we can see all in the same ballpark. NumFocus has done a great job. I don't know what it was over the pandemic that brought them in the extra income, but that is great.
So, these are comparable organizations that have some scope and host a bunch of projects. There are a ton of C3s that have like one project or are focused on something specific. So this isn't representative of everybody, but these are, I think, most of the interesting foundations in terms of the bigger picture of sustainability.
Of course, net assets, which is also tracked in 990s. Again, the same for organizations. NumFocus is at the top, they've been saving money. That actually is probably because over the pandemic, they run a number of events, both for their core community and other communities.
They didn't run them, they've been saving cash. Oh, but I forgot, I'm sorry. If we add in Wikimedia Foundation, which is a C3, and the Mozilla Foundation, which is a C3, even though it's kind of tied to somebody else, if we add them in, then we look at revenues, then, oh, I think, yeah, we're down there somewhere.
I don't know if this is, this isn't a fair comparison in terms of what we do. The Wikimedia Foundation does Wikipedia. That's a very different focus. Mozilla, they have the browser and the for-profit corporation, that's a different model. So I don't know if that really is a valuable thing,
but I thought it was interesting to see, they are C3 charities, they are public charities. To see that. So one thing I thought was interesting was, if we, of the 42 organizations I've pulled down so far, which is the majority of things you would have heard of, average revenues of all of them is 4.9 million annually.
If we discount Mozilla, Wikimedia, oh, and sorry, the EFF, which is both legally focused and has, I think, a big legal war chest, the average revenue is $2.7 million. That's what most of our foundations that are public charities do.
So let's look at, now those are public charities, right? Those are restricted in US law in terms of what they can do in their governance models. Let's look at the business leagues in the US, which are 501c6 organizations. And I can see a couple of people laughing.
Which I do too. So this is, there aren't as many C6s, and there's a C4 out there somewhere which is not modeled, just because it's not as common, but this is the same chart with most of the C6 organizations,
certainly a bit higher than all the public, the nonprofit ones, the C3s. And if we look at net assets, I don't know what that open compute was, that must be some sort of pre-pandemic. Oh, no, I'm sorry, this chart is missing something.
These charts of all the C6s that do, the free and open source software in the US, I missed, I forgot to put the Linux Foundation in, sorry about that. So, oh, so the rest of them are still down there, OSGO and Open Source Collective,
they're still down there. But if we look at annual revenues for the past 10 years, and we include the Linux Foundation, that changes the scale by an order of magnitude. And if we look at net assets of all of them,
that also, again, part of this hockey stick at the end, the Linux Foundation runs a lot of events, and they canceled during the pandemic, so they weren't saving money up. Part of that is inflated, but just part. Now, of course, the Linux Foundation,
one question is, how many important projects do they have? If we read out the list of their projects that are major software things, how many would you say, oh, I use that, and I use that, and that's a key part of computing. So they are big, in a way. But if we, if you'll just pardon me for one minute, let's compare, in the US, again, the public charities
versus the business leagues that build software. They're all non-profits, right? But they have different ways of doing things. So if we take 38 of the modeled C3 foundations, I haven't done everything, excluding Wikimedia, Mozilla, and EFF, we take their net assets in 2022,
as stated in US tax forms, the total assets of all those is $90 million US. And if we take the 2022 990 from the Linux Foundation, their total net assets at the end of the year were $114 million US.
This is where I will say, I'm hoping that I can leave you with some better questions for how we can work on open source sustainability moving forward. And that is that. Everything is checked in, all the data is there. I would love help making it more obvious to,
I would love help visualizing some of this because I'm bad at visualizing. And we can now, you know, run searches of like who sponsors which company. I'd love to do that historically, right? We can go back in the wayback machine and say, oh, who actually sponsored me a year ago? Who was it 10 years ago? That would be some interesting data, but we need help do that. So that's all.
Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Shane.