Nobody cares about Plone: Selling a Plone website to somebody who doesn't care
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| License | CC Attribution 3.0 Germany: You are free to use, adapt and copy, distribute and transmit the work or content in adapted or unchanged form for any legal purpose as long as the work is attributed to the author in the manner specified by the author or licensor. | |
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Plone Conference 20228 / 44
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Turtle graphicsWebsiteWeb-DesignerConnected spaceEnterprise architectureSystem callMultiplication signWebsiteBitWordClient (computing)LoginContent (media)Different (Kate Ryan album)Student's t-testData managementSet (mathematics)WritingData conversionContent management systemPlanningPoint (geometry)BlogOpen sourcePhysical systemMusical ensembleProduct (business)Identical particlesDigital photographyGroup actionFood energyLevel (video gaming)InformationSensitivity analysisSelf-organizationLine (geometry)Type theoryMedical imagingSoftware developerTerm (mathematics)Functional (mathematics)Dynamical systemCanadian Mathematical SocietyComplex (psychology)TouchscreenMessage passingSlide ruleElectronic mailing listResultantHypermediaGoodness of fitRight angleState of matterCASE <Informatik>Greatest elementProbability density functionDemo (music)Library catalogMereologyBuildingRule of inferenceTask (computing)Bookmark (World Wide Web)Computer programmingProof theoryPerspective (visual)Range (statistics)MathematicsWeb pageEvent horizonObject (grammar)Uniform resource locatorInformation securityHecke operatorWeb 2.0Computer fileRow (database)TrailTelecommunicationNumberShape (magazine)File formatCloningOrder (biology)Presentation of a groupGraph coloring2 (number)1 (number)Decision theoryInternetworkingSoftwareRoboticsWaveMoment (mathematics)Punched cardLocal ringPosition operatorVector potentialPattern languageVariety (linguistics)Point cloudPropositional formulaUniqueness quantificationSheaf (mathematics)Hacker (term)Dimensional analysisCategory of beingHydraulic jumpComputer animation
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Meeting/Interview
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JSONXMLUML
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Plane (geometry)Functional (mathematics)Planning
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Term (mathematics)BitLecture/Conference
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Right angleElectronic mailing listGreatest element3 (number)Meeting/InterviewLecture/Conference
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Goodness of fitLecture/Conference
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Keilförmige AnordnungElectronic mailing listGoodness of fit
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NumberDimensional analysisElectronic mailing listMeeting/InterviewLecture/Conference
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Similarity (geometry)BitMeeting/InterviewComputer animation
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Computer iconWeb-Designer
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BuildingClient (computing)WebsiteVariety (linguistics)Meeting/Interview
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Point (geometry)BuildingWebsiteClient (computing)Computer animation
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Line (geometry)Digital photographyGroup actionFood energyMeeting/InterviewComputer animation
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Plane (geometry)Client (computing)WebsiteComputer animation
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WebsiteContent (media)Data managementMeeting/InterviewComputer animation
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WebsiteType theoryData managementPlane (geometry)Enterprise architectureClient (computing)TelecommunicationBitRow (database)Canadian Mathematical SocietyData managementMusical ensembleMereologyInternetworkingBookmark (World Wide Web)TrailInformation securitySelf-organizationWeb 2.0Computer animation
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Type theoryDifferent (Kate Ryan album)Type theoryRule of inferenceContent (media)MathematicsState of matterLevel (video gaming)Meeting/InterviewLecture/ConferenceComputer animation
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Client (computing)WebsiteWeb 2.0HypermediaMedical imagingMathematicsElectronic mailing listClient (computing)WebsiteMeeting/InterviewComputer animation
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Client (computing)CASE <Informatik>Message passingWebsiteState of matterMeeting/Interview
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WebsiteMultiplication signTerm (mathematics)WebsiteFunctional (mathematics)Information securityHacker (term)Client (computing)Category of beingMeeting/Interview
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Term (mathematics)Decision theoryOrder (biology)BitWebsiteClient (computing)Graph coloringNumber
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1 (number)Client (computing)Meeting/InterviewLecture/Conference
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Wide area networkObject (grammar)Client (computing)Web pageEvent horizonCASE <Informatik>Different (Kate Ryan album)Computer animation
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Software developerClient (computing)WebsiteType theoryPoint (geometry)Computer animation
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Product (business)Library catalogProbability density functionClient (computing)WebsiteRange (statistics)Meeting/Interview
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MetreLine (geometry)WebsiteSoftware developerResultantProduct (business)Term (mathematics)Functional (mathematics)Client (computing)Complex (psychology)Content (media)Type theoryHydraulic jumpMeeting/Interview
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WebsiteUniqueness quantificationPerspective (visual)Client (computing)SoftwareVector potentialFunctional (mathematics)BuildingPosition operatorOpen sourceCASE <Informatik>Computer animation
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Ocean currentClient (computing)WordType theoryMeeting/InterviewLecture/ConferenceXMLUMLComputer animation
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Different (Kate Ryan album)Pattern languageBitComputer animationLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
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SineClient (computing)Computer animation
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Client (computing)WebsiteMultiplication signLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
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Meeting/Interview
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LoginStudent's t-testSet (mathematics)WritingSoftwareRoboticsWebsiteBlogLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
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Level (video gaming)WordEnterprise architectureSystem callMultiplication signBitConnected spaceCanadian Mathematical SocietyLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
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WordMeeting/InterviewLecture/Conference
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InformationMeeting/Interview
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Local area networkSelf-organizationMultiplication signSensitivity analysisLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
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Cellular automatonMountain passPoint (geometry)Data conversionLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
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Point (geometry)Absolute valueWordContent (media)Meeting/InterviewLecture/Conference
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Physical systemClient (computing)Meeting/Interview
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Presentation of a groupData conversionPoint (geometry)Client (computing)Event horizonDemo (music)Uniform resource locatorWeb pageLecture/ConferenceMeeting/Interview
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Demo (music)Hecke operatorMeeting/Interview
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WebsiteDemo (music)MereologyGoodness of fitClient (computing)Meeting/Interview
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Turtle graphicsWebsiteProof theoryPlanningComputer animation
Transcript: English(auto-generated)
02:04
Hello everybody, please give a warm welcome to Talia and Carol who are present to talk about, nobody cares about me who doesn't care.
02:28
So, I don't know why, because that is my desktop background.
03:22
I don't know about you guys, but when I am preparing for an overseas trip, I like to think and daydream and channel all my excitement into thinking about packing. So, I like to kind of daydream about what I'll need to take with me, what will I want with
03:44
me, how do I want to look while I carry all my things with me, how do I want to feel. And as I was kind of daydreaming about this trip, I realized there was something missing from the picture that I was constructing in my mind.
04:02
And that was a backpack, but not just any backpack. It needed to fulfill three kind of functions. So firstly, it had to have specific features, so it needed to be big enough to carry everything I wanted
04:22
with me, both in the plane and then also here at the conference, but also some sightseeing and so on. And I wanted to be able to move freely and easily, I didn't want to be bogged down by something too bulky or too heavy.
04:43
And then secondly, I also wanted it to look good, so I wanted it to go with everything that I was planning to bring with me in terms of clothes for the trip. And I also wanted it to say something about me looks-wise, so I wanted
05:00
it to look kind of professional, but not too stuffy, so a little bit of personality. I wanted it to basically say, I know what I'm doing, but I'm not too old -fashioned or corporate, because I didn't expect that really to be the vibe of the conference.
05:23
I think I'm right. And then finally, it also had to feel good. Ethics and sustainability are quite important to me when I'm purchasing something. So, I wanted it to be from a company that I would feel good supporting.
05:44
So, when I started looking for the bag, I actually started at the bottom of the list with number three. I wanted a bag that would make me feel good. So, I already kind of had a brand in mind. It's a Cape Town-based brand called Sealand.
06:03
They use waste materials to make really high-quality, durable bags, and everything is made in South Africa, fair wages and all that. So, I already knew about that, that I wanted to go and get something from them.
06:22
It's also got quite a good brand reputation. So, that person knows something about style and about ethical fashion and that kind of thing. So, I went to their website, and I really kind of knew I was looking for a backpack, because I wanted to carry things hands-free.
06:45
So, I went to their backpack section, and then I moved up the list of requirements. So, it needed to look good. And immediately, one design stood out to me. This one.
07:01
And I chose the black color, just because I knew it would kind of look professional and also go with everything. And then finally, I moved on to the features. So, that's number one on the list. I looked to see what the dimensions were, how many pockets it has, the straps, all of that kind of stuff.
07:23
And then I was like, okay, this is going to work for me. So, I hit buy. So, it cost a little bit more than other bags that would have kind of similar features. But it was because of those last two qualities that I paid a little bit more for the bag than I normally would for something.
07:48
Yeah. So, you're probably all wondering, where can I get a backpack like that? By the way, this is not sponsored.
08:02
I feel like I have to. I just like the brand, and this is a relevant story to tell. So, you're probably actually all wondering, what on earth does this have to do with Plone? And don't worry, it will make sense by the end of the talk.
08:23
Well, at this point, you all know more about Talia's backpack than you actually do about us and about JuZee. I'm Carl, and this is Talia. And we're from a web development company in South Africa called JuZee. And we specialise in building Plone websites.
08:41
Most of our clients are non-profit organisations, mostly in education and politics. But we actually have a wide variety of clients, and some of them international, but mostly local. I'm a front-end designer, and at this point, the person that most of our clients have contact with
09:04
for the last year or so, Talia has been managing everything marketing for JuZee. She's new to Plone. Oh, thank you. She's new to Plone, but she's been learning a lot about what Plone is and what Plone can do.
09:23
But the point I'm trying to make is that we make a living building Plone websites and selling Plone websites. So it's important for us to be able to convince potential clients that a Plone website is the best solution to their problems. And what we found is that clients just don't care about Plone.
09:45
So to unpack this, we've chosen to address three questions. Why don't people care about Plone? What is Plone? And how do we sell Plone to people who don't care?
10:02
So the first question is, why don't people care about Plone? And we figured out there's kind of two main reasons, and the first one is they don't know the name. People are drawn to what is familiar. So when you're looking at a group photo, you're not going to spend the same amount of attention and energy on every face in that group photo.
10:25
You're going to look for your face in that group photo. You're going to look for yourself. You're going to look for your friends, your family, and spend your attention there on what is familiar. So in the same way, people are drawn to brands, names, software, and CMSs that are familiar to them.
10:49
So, I mean, I was drawn to a familiar brand when I was looking for a backpack to buy. When it comes to websites, there are definitely a lot more familiar names than
11:02
Plone, like WordPress, which is kind of, it's kind of like the Google of CMSs. Most people know what WordPress is. Drupal, Wex, Squarespace, those kinds of website builders. Even if potential clients are kind of vaguely aware that they can use something other than WordPress, for example, to build
11:28
a website, they are generally not going to think further than that when they are deciding that they need a website. And then the second reason is other CMSs claim to offer many of the same things.
11:44
So they're more familiar, and they offer kind of, well, they claim to offer the same things. Content management in itself isn't really that special.
12:03
So what exactly is Plone? It's being flown all the way from South Africa to address a room full of people who also bought tickets to PloneConf. I think we can safely assume that everybody here knows what Plone is. But I thought, let me just read you what I found on Wikipedia.
12:24
Plone is positioned as an enterprise CMS and is commonly used for internets and as part of web presences for large organizations. Plone's proponents cite its security track record and its accessibility as reasons to choose Plone. Thanks, Wikipedia.
12:41
I also realized, when I found that little bit on Wikipedia, that there's an electronic music band called Plone. Couldn't find any of the music, though, so, yeah, couldn't play anything here for you. From a client's perspective, though, Plone is definitely not unique. Even though the features are great, they're pretty much what you would expect when you buy into any kind of CMS nowadays.
13:08
Some of our favorite features of Plone include easy user management. This includes the ability to easily set up users, give them the permissions to add what they need to add and tell them where they can actually add these things.
13:24
The content workflows and rules are amazing. We can set content to different accessibility levels and change the state of the content and that can trigger alerts and other changes. And then the fact that there's many different content types as well.
13:40
Users can add this content to wherever they need to. They can edit content that someone in their team has added and it just makes for a nice collaborative experience. And then obviously many, many more features like the change notes, image handling, social media support, yeah, lots and lots and lots.
14:02
So, but that being said, the clients are not, or the clients are after a solution, not just a list of things that can be done in a certain way. They want to know what is the benefit of Plone to them. So in marketing, benefits are basically features presented in a user centric way.
14:26
We need to think about what problems Plone solves and how can Plone make our clients' lives easier and better. So in our experience, there are generally three things that clients care about.
14:40
Will it get me online? Can my website grow? And is my website safe? So will it get me online? Clients don't necessarily even think about wanting a website first. They just, their first thought is, I want to be online.
15:04
Their main concern is that clients can find them, use their resources, find their message and even buy their product, if that is the case. They want to know if their website can grow. They want an updated site that reflects their business in its current state.
15:22
However, in an ever-changing business landscape, they need to be sure that these updates are possible, easy and relatively inexpensive, both in terms of time and money. And more so, just than getting updates for their site, they need to know how quick and easy it is to add new functionality
15:41
and how easily that new functionality can be incorporated into their existing website. And then clients want their website safe from hackers. Most of them don't even fully understand what that actually means, but it is a scary thought. Maybe their site has been hacked before, maybe someone that they know has had
16:03
their site hacked, but they need a sense of security around their business presence. In our years of working with Plone, we found that it's an elegant and mighty tool that offers a good solution for all three categories.
16:24
So our final question is, how do we sell Plone to people who don't care? So firstly, we have to focus on what people actually do care about. We already know they don't care about Plone, but as Karel has mentioned, there are certain benefits of Plone that clients actually do care about.
16:46
So it's all about looking at things from the client's perspective. When I was deciding to buy my backpack, I could have easily found something cheaper that would be a backpack with the same basic features. In terms of size, shape, number of pockets, and even the color.
17:05
But it was the extra stuff, it was the benefits, the way it looks and the way it makes me feel, that ultimately made me pay that little bit more money for it. In a world full of website builders and CMSs, in order for a client to make the decision to say, yes, build me a website in Plone,
17:27
we have to appeal to what is important to them. That's slightly different for every client, but Karel's already kind of highlighted some of the main ones. Clients want to be online, where their target audience is.
17:41
They want the freedom to grow their business and their online presence accordingly. And then they also want to feel that their online presence is safe. Notice how, from their perspective, those are all abstract qualities. Presence, freedom, and safety.
18:01
We know how to use the features of Plone to give them these things, which are all benefits of Plone. So it's clear that clients respond to us listening to what they want, addressing their needs, and solving their problems.
18:20
Even though clients might think that their website challenges are unique, they generally aren't, so it's not always necessary to reinvent the wheel. Plone has great native objects that cover a lot of client needs. News items can be used for news, event items used for events, and pages can't just be used for everything else.
18:43
These items can easily be repurposed for different use cases. We have built numerous different websites only using these native content types. So actually we're showing that Plone offers a simple starting point without the need to immediately resort to customisation.
19:04
Good solutions don't always start with custom development, but rather from understanding the client's problem well enough to decide whether custom development is needed or where it is needed. In that way we avoid building over-engineered websites and rather help the client funnel their budget towards where it's needed.
19:25
A good example of this is where a client actually asked us to build a PDF generator to export catalogues from their websites for their products or ranges of products. This is a good example of how we developed a PDF generator for their products and according to the spec they gave us, this was actually quite the task, which fell out of the budget, unfortunately.
19:47
So what we did instead, we actually just included a button on each product to download a PDF brochure that they had already developed previously. In the brief we realised that the nice to have PDF generator was actually
20:02
not necessary, as their products were not dynamic enough to warrant that kind of functionality. So we gave them what they wanted, but in a way that saved them some money and that made them actually see the strength in what they had developed already in terms of marketing material.
20:21
Custom development can however give excellent results. These results can come from something as simple as a dexterity content type or something as complex as making your website jump through flaming hoops on command. But it definitely isn't what you're building, it's how that addresses the problem.
20:41
That is the most important thing for the client and the user. We're not just building things, we're solving problems by building things. Again, viewing things from the client's perspective is what helps us sell Plone to people who don't care.
21:01
So in marketing there's this concept of a USP, a unique selling proposition, which is basically the thing that sets you apart from everyone else and it's the reason why somebody would choose you over any other company that can build them a website.
21:20
As is the case with a lot of open source software, those who are making the money from it aren't selling the software because Plone itself is free, but they're selling their expertise using the software and building things and providing functionality to clients.
21:43
If it weren't for us, they'd need to learn how to use Plone to its fullest potential and I'm sure you all know that can take a very long time. So for us, our team is our USP, we don't just say we know how to use Plone, we highlight our years of experience, we highlight
22:08
our knowledge of Plone and also our ability to use it to its fullest potential to solve our clients' problems in an elegant and mighty way. We also highlight our previous work, positive testimonials from previous clients. Most of our clients have been with us for
22:29
many, many years and a lot of new business comes in through word of mouth from them and we work really hard to keep our current clients happy because of that, because it makes them want to recommend us to other people.
22:58
So, back to the backpack. I'm sure whoever designed and made this backpack, actually his name is Joseph, the
23:07
name is on the label in the bag, which is another kind of interesting thing that this brand does. So, I'm sure Joseph cares about or cared about each type of fabric, where it came from,
23:21
each pattern piece, every seam as he put the bag together, but that's not what I care about. In a sense, I didn't even buy this backpack, this collection of different fabric and seams and zips and all of that stuff. I bought the ability to have all my things with me while being able to move freely during this trip.
23:45
I bought a look of professionalism with a little bit of personality and I bought feeling cool and fashionable and good about supporting a local ethical brand. In the same way that Joseph cared about each seam as he put the bag together, we, and I
24:07
think I can safely say all of you, we care about Plone, but our clients aren't actually even buying Plone. Remember what clients are buying. They are buying, just before the punchline.
24:31
They're buying presents, they're buying freedom, and they're buying safety. And if you ensure that they get that, then they'll buy you. Thank you.
24:53
I think we've got quite a bit of time. We'd love to hear about your guys' experience. Are there any other benefits
25:04
that you guys can highlight that have maybe caused a client to have a click moment, like, aha, Plone is for me. I know Kim has a story like that about the users and permissions with the Wave Robotics website.
25:26
We'd love to hear from you guys how you've sold Plone, because I think we can all benefit from sharing how. Thank you very much. Is there any question for them?
25:42
Any answer? I don't know if you wanted me to tell a story about, well, I'll tell it. I'll tell it anyway. I had started to help a robotics team, high school robotics team in my hometown, and they
26:07
were using some software for their website that I had never heard of, and it was proprietary. They had to keep paying for it, and they were really worried that their students would be able to delete content or just edit anything
26:22
on the site if they gave them a login, so they never were able to allow students to learn to write news items or blog posts. Obviously, the first thing I did was, hey, would you like to see Plone? I had the usual rehearsed set of things I was going to talk about, and I showed this woman who's running the website, and I said, well, I'm
26:48
going to log in now, and then because I'm logged in as a manager, I'll be able to edit anything, but we'll give students a different kind of login. And she said, wait, what? You mean you can control who can do what on the site? And I said, yeah, and you can, she said, sold.
27:06
So that was it. I was going, but I have more to tell. Thank you so much. These, like you said, presence, safety, presence, freedom, and safety.
27:31
These are really the emotional appeals that come to people when they're looking for you, and I think we've, in the Plone community, we've been trying to do that at certain times with marketing.
27:43
I remember around the 2015 launch, people got together, and we also liked looking at these more emotional calls. I think we had, like, Plone gives you peace of mind, but because before that, we had, like, Plone the enterprise CMS. Well, that first turns your feet cold, and then it slowly creeps upwards to your whole body because it doesn't really trigger any emotions, the word enterprise.
28:04
But on the other hand, it's difficult because you could say, if we start, I'm not, if you say, okay, Plone, presence, freedom, and safety, then you are very quickly catched up by the other CMSs to say, yeah, but we offer the same. Can you elaborate a bit more on that? Because you still have to have
28:21
the connection between the sub-slogan for, indeed, what Plone offers people. That's totally true. We say we offer much more presence, we offer much more freedom, and we offer much more safety. But then you're back into the feature, like we've got more features than you, but then on the emotional level.
28:45
Could you explain how we, how could we go further from that? Like, proving? That's kind of a, I mean, it's a tough question to answer. I know, I know. But thank you.
29:03
So, I mean, this is, I mean, we don't intend to use this as like a tagline or anything. This is kind of an underlying thing that, of things that we can emphasize in the rest of our marketing. I think, kind of, just going back to what, you know, what we like to emphasize, I mean, most of our marketing does happen through word of mouth.
29:34
And if you can put testimonials that highlight these things, I think that that works really well.
29:45
Because if you can, I mean, anyone can say, yes, this is a safe system, but, you know, you could just be saying something. But if you have someone else, a happy client, who says, okay, I'm really relieved that my important information is safe, or I, you know,
30:06
have a very, I run an organization with sensitive information, and I've had a tough time with other CMSs, and this one has worked for me. Yeah, I think that's kind of the way that, kind of the most effective way to set yourself apart is to have other people do the talking for you.
30:32
So, yeah, that's kind of, yeah. I think also an important thing to remember is that marketing in general is an ongoing conversation.
30:42
So, and sales is storytelling. So if you can have more of these stories in your arsenal that someone heard of a feature and went, wow, okay, that's the selling point for me. And you can have the ongoing conversation, they'll just listen to more of your stories and actually just fall deeper and deeper in love with Plone.
31:04
I think there is also the thing that we should distinguish between the customer, we are selling the product, the users that users Plone to produce the content, and the consumer on the outside.
31:25
And the thing is, as you said before, it's all about the users that feeling the use of the system, and that's actually the important point. If you have motivated users, they can do anything, even with the shittiest tool, but
31:44
if you have a good tool that supports them, producing fantastic content to their consumers, that's the thing what they care about, then they are more than willing to spread the word of mouth to the other people. And I think that should be one thing we should, as a community, embrace more to
32:05
give more user stories, how they build it, like the testimonials, and have some format for that. Absolutely, absolutely. The wins have to be highlighted, because if we're just kind of going, oh yeah, it worked, that's not a story worth telling.
32:27
But if you can highlight that win, then people are going to talk about it. Not just with you, because obviously it's wonderful if a client tells me that the system works. I've built it, I know. But if they can tell each other, interdepartmental, between friends, during a conversation, if you really have
32:47
to, then someone can call me and say, well, a friend told me about you, and we can start the next conversation. Thank you for your presentation. I found that the most important thing is just to first
33:07
listen to the clients about what are their top needs and what are their pain points. So I always ask these questions. And the first thing that came out of a potential client was, I hate editing pages in WordPress. It's a nightmare.
33:26
And so I said, alright, we'll go to this URL. It's this Plone6 demo site. And she tried it out. After 15 minutes, she was like, I want this so bad. And then I pointed out, did you try creating an event and creating an article? And she said, yes, it was so easy and it was already formatted for me.
33:50
I didn't have to select something and make it bold or italic. And then people could download an ICS file. What the heck is this all about?
34:01
So I think that's always in my arsenal of tools, is the demo site. It's really, really effective. That's actually a very good point, because a lot of clients just want a portfolio. What have you done? What have you worked on in the past? But that is actually a very good point, that part of your portfolio should be
34:23
the demo site as well, because it actually shows the flip side of what you've built. People who are going to be using it. Exactly. Is there another question or answer? So thank you very much for your talk.
34:43
Thanks everybody. We would just like some social proof that we were here, because obviously the FD paid for plane
35:01
tickets, so we just need to show the picture and say, look, we were here, we did the talk. So we just want to quickly take a selfie with all of you. I think she is watching online.