Is this thing supposed to be on? Can you guys hear me out there? Okay I'll fix that Microphone on hello. Okay. Awesome. All right. Can you guys hear me? Hey works. Okay, sweet

So if you're not here for plum versus Drupal, you're in the wrong room

So I guess yeah, we had a good crowd tonight. Awesome are tonight today So if I have to drink a lot of water during the presentation my throat has I've lost my voice Which is bad for presenting typically. Yeah, so don't forget

As a guest of the plum versus Drupal talk. We have goodies for you guys. We've got some M&Ms You're running out So you so raise your hand if you don't get even hat don't have any and you would like one because we we will run out of those

That'd be kind of funny. Okay, awesome. That's better. I can see my slides Hmm. I guess we're ready to roll. We'll go ahead and get this thing kicked off then So I've had a really interesting journey recently I spent the last three months

every Friday afternoon Drinking beer and looking at Drupal with this fine, man So this is a if you don't recognize me, this is the person I'm talking about here. This is a Doug van He and I have basically sat down and decided we wanted to do a civil comparison of plum versus Drupal

We really wanted to understand where we were similar and we were different and the reason I was so excited because Doug actually lives Like 15 minutes from my house and he's a he's been doing Drupal since 2007 He's actually one of the kind of premiered Drupal trainers. He goes all over the world training folks about Drupal He presents that all the Drupal cons. He's basically the

Calvin equivalent in Drupal world of doing the same kind of things I go and do all the time. So it was almost Too too perfect that we found a person who lives so close who could talk about Drupal so well So yeah after much much beer drinking and much Talking and going back and forth

We would finally settle in and actually get a little bit of work done and talk about the various areas of Drupal itself Oh and Doug is his first computer was a Commodore 64 in 1983 and he learned and taught himself Basic so he's like he's not a computer science guru. He's a self-taught programmer kind of same as me I am not a computer science person but

Taught myself programming and computers so that I could go out and make cool websites And so Doug falls right in line with almost the exact same thing as me So we did is we sat down and we had a huge list of what we thought were kind of main areas We probably should try and hit so I'm gonna try and go over all these with you guys today

We'll see how much we get through in the 40 minutes. We have allotted I seem I can go a little over so start a little late, but that's basically the methodology We would sit down and then we kind of start talking I'd figure out if that fit in one of these sections and I'd start writing in this big Google Doc that we did And actually all the material that I talked about today I mean the slides will be posted up online the video should go up online

But we've actually put together a like mini Plone versus Drupal website inside the sixhip.com site So all these sections are listed on that that site there all the screenshots That are in the presentation are gonna be listed up there as well So if you actually want to refer back to kind of the source information for where all this came from

It's actually all up on our website because it's it's been quite an interesting journey and also the last comparison we did of Plone versus Drupal was back from 2010 and we were comparing Drupal 6.19 to Plone 4.0 So if that tells you about any age So we decided we'd kind of blow the dust off this process and go do it again and

See what see how things have changed if they've gotten better worse or how we compare so we'll go ahead and kick it off with the Obviously if we're going to compare them we better talk about how we're going to install and deploy our instances This is mostly going to be about the download and install experience as a new developer coming to that product. So we

Basically, they both have a similar download experience. I think each of them is you're three clicks away You know, obviously on Plone.org it takes about three clicks to get here and you're downloading a tarball and installing that into your system Yeah, you basically with one really nice things about Plone if you're new to Plone and never been in the community

There aren't a lot of Dependencies you have to get installed into your system, especially if you're like on a Mac We've we've taken care of this pretty well with the unified installer experience of just run install to sh It gets all the dependencies and compiles Python. It does all the little bits for you And then you start the instance and point your browser at it. There isn't too much more to kind of getting going

Again the kind of benefits here of Plone is very few dependencies are needed to get started there's a no requirement really to run Apache or have a database server or any other kind of thing because we're really relying on the Zope application server and the embedded database the ZODB to get started So if as a newcomer, then I'll not a lot of moving pieces to get going

Now the downside is is a very large download So start your download go get a coffee because it's gonna take a little while and then Running that build at the installed sh takes a little bit of time So again, you may have to go get your croissant and come back because it takes a while to get going

Now the the Drupal experience is very similar about three clicks away You are downloading the tar I considerably smaller tar ball and you are basically ready to start the installation process for Drupal This is where it gets a little different you need to assuming you basically need to have some stuff already on your computer like whether using mamp wamp or like a quiet desktop or

Some you got you've installed Apache on your own with your own mod PHP You have to have a MySQL server already running and set up. You have to create the database yourself before you before you actually Get going with Drupal so there's a little more things to do. It's documented very well

They do have great documentation on getting started But you are gonna have to know some things ahead of time before you can actually get started with Drupal. So theirs is Extracting your web group set up your database head to the browser and then you actually run their install wizard through the web

You may actually please please ask questions as we go because there's lots of stuff and it'll be difficult for you to remember Which section you want to ask a question about? Yeah

Yeah Yeah, and but I think the it'd be nice if we could get the Heroku button put up there Like it does work really well. I was quite surprised it installs Yeah, cuz we don't have and that's actually one of my kind of findings that Drupal is very very approachable because they have put things

Like this in there, you know try a hosted demo I mean, it's like one-click installers in there and you're good to go So yeah You don't have to download install but I was trying to do it from a more of a developer standpoint if I wanted to

Actually work on Drupal and be productive. I got some stuff. I got to do on my laptop before I can do that Now it's interesting with Drupal as opposed to Plone So you just saw kind of the core what it's called the core Drupal download button But Drupal also has these things called distributions I don't think anybody here familiar with Drupal and kind of familiar with the concept of distributions. So what they've got are

These kind of pre-built sets of add-ons maintained by somebody so that you could do for example Social port open social portal This is a this is a distribution of Drupal with basically core plus X number of add-ons They also put in which is really nice

some sample content to kind of give you a feel for how the site should work and we don't have that really kind of miss out on I mean we put in news events and Members in the kind of main nav to start with with Plone, but it doesn't give you a feel for like Example kind of content how a user profile should really look and this issue a full kind of in-context

Experience and there's a bunch of these now. Not all of them are compatible Drupal 8 So I will be talking about Drupal 8 specifically unless I say otherwise Drupal 8 has let's see if I got in here This is another one this is like a sports league So if you're running a team for your kids or whatever They've got sites where you can put up a sports league to eat stuff some of the more popular

Drupal Distributions are not compatible yet with Drupal 8. For example, they have one called open atrium, which is like an internet In-a-box type solution. They have one called commerce kickstart, which is also very popular for doing ecommerce online with Drupal But those aren't compatible with Drupal 8 yet and we'll talk about compatibility in a bit

But yeah, this is kind of that installation process So once you've downloaded and installed you still have to go through kind of a next next next finish Installer where it asks you some questions about your database name and password and things like that to get going So once you are installed the upgrade process is is kind of nice

It does tell you if you're out of date These are some things that if I put these on my wish list of what Plone could do I really wish Plone had this built into the control panel where it would check for updates and Tell you when you're out of date or when you need a hotfix or a patch. So because of you know Security track records I think they've built this in to keep people really aware of

Whether they're out of date or getting out of date with their their current Drupal versions Now Plone really don't really have Distributions like that, but we do have a couple groups have gone off and built some interesting things on top of Plone I don't know that I don't know how to kind of classify these but I know the

Wildcard group is doing castle CMS, which looks really interesting to me. They're they're kind of bundling opinionated Technologies together to give you a really nice experience I don't think sign-in has migrated to like Plone 5 and I don't know how relevant they still are but that was a Internet like social internet portal and then the Quave project is based off of Plone 5

And also has an open source version of it that you can download and try out and install So I know if you're in this room, you won't be seeing the Quave demo but I highly recommend you guys checking that out because they've done a really good job of Addressing usability issues and making that guided experience of an internet and knowledge management tool Like super easy. So we're going to talk a little bit about the out-of-the-box experience

It's just kind of general features you get without having to add any add-ons into the system And also what kind of content types and things are available as you start So your your very first experience with Drupal firing it up You logged in they have the edit bar across the top kind of like our Plone toolbar

this Admin buttons here. It can actually be pushed over to the side kind of like ours where you can have it on top or the left side Drupal 8 focused on a lot of usability fixes, so they

They recognize I think they've got a lot of people in their community look kind of tremendously more than maybe Plone community does But they focused on a lot of usability UI UX Drupal 8 finally comes out of the box with a WYSIWYG editor Installed it used to be that if you wanted to use what you see is what you get edited through the web You had to install an add-on module

which We'll talk about add-on modules later But could be a double-edged sword because if you get stuck at a certain version of an add-on module and you can't upgrade You really kind of get hosed. So it's nice to have that built into their core features now Another big usability is the icons apparently were a big deal for the Drupal community to put there in their toolbar they said they got a big win in testing and

They have a package installer so in right directly inside of Drupal you can actually go to install add-ons or modules from drupal.org into your system without having to go to the file system There's actually I think I've got a screenshot of it in there later But you basically just paste in the URL the thing you want or upload a zip file that includes the module you want to install

Installs it activates it and you're good to go. So they really kind of Installing add-ons into their product Let's see Yes, I think there's a lot of this community

I mean we talked a little bit about Acquia and their role in the community Obviously they are a big force in their community because they kind of have a central Group that has a lot of money and investment and they but their focus is strictly on most of the time strictly on hosting

there so Acquia is a group that the founder of Drupal works for and they tried to basically focus on providing a enterprise grade you know super bulletproof hosting platform to put your Drupal site into they try not to compete with the Drupal integrators and developers who are doing work day-to-day work on Drupal sites

But the community has broken up in teams kind of like we are and they have a security team and a core team And this and that so they I think they've it's mostly community driven at least that's the impression I got you know Through this process. So it's very community driven So

Well, I thought was interesting is in a basic Drupal install You have two content types available to you out of the box Which they seem fairly similar to me as well. You have an article and a basic page now Drupal does include a Book content type but it's not active and a forum content type that is not active

They used to ship with a blog and a poll, but in Drupal 8 they removed those out of the core product They really do guide people toward custom content type creation through the web Versus add-on modules or standard content types that are already built in and ready to go for you

So again, this is interesting that basically you've got two content types as an out-of-the-box experience. I thought that was kind of Unlimiting now what they also have introduced in core of Drupal 8 is a thing that used to be a contrib package like an add-on for a Drupal called views and you can think of views as basically the equivalent of our

collections or smart folders and they do a lot with that kind of like we would do if everyone had if mosaic was You know primetime and everyone was using mosaic now or using tiles and blocks and things They use views to make basically collections of content show up anywhere inside the site and make layouts for different kinds Of pages, so that's that's their technology for that. It's called views

Now they also have Users files and comments so kind of standard stuff like we have as far as like user management There's there, you know as entities inside the site that you can refer to but they're not full-fledged content types Now plown when you install it out of the box. We also have done a great focus on usability and

redesigning from plown 4 to plown 5 I won't have to go too deep into this because I hope you people know what this thing looks like We've been talking about a lot But what I really wanted to show off was I still like the fact that we have a great set of Built-in content type so you can use right out of the box I think this helps guide new users toward managing content right away

The old argument of the product versus the framework. Plown is nice out of the box because you can use it right away Someone can install it and start managing content. They don't have to do a lot of configuration So they don't to set up their own content types Drupal appears to be more of a you install it and then you better start doing some configuration to it first before you really want

To start using it. You want to set up your information architecture. You want to set up your content types and things like that So, yeah, we have a great set of out-of-the-box content types we also have, you know users in groups management Discussion items. So there's those those do exist as well. Now when you get into products and modules

This Plown 5, I don't think we went forward in this direction with products and modules Right now I even kind of dressed this up by pointing to the new beta of PyPi, but basically we're sending new people directly to PyPi without much guidance about how to find add-ons

It's very hard to find a Plown 5 theme in PyPi You basically have to know how to run the check boxes and even then the results are iffy because you're relying on people having filled out the Classifiers correctly and their setup.pis. I don't think this is a good situation for new people coming to the community because

It's hard to navigate. I mean, we kind of got some suggested add-ons on the main page for our site for Plown.org But I think we can do a better job here Now of the add-ons that are in PyPi, yes, oh good

I'm gonna be excited when this is what PyPi looks like when you go to it The current one, I think 1998 called wants their site back They do a great job. I mean, they're working really hard and keeping that thing very very stable for us But yeah, I'm looking forward to this this new and this is pyramid based the new PyPi, which is pretty awesome

but the Plown add-ons inside PyPi, there's about 2800 of them listed but once you filter down just for Plown 5 you can see right there. We've got 232 Probably half of those are Plown itself. So there's not a lot of add-on packages that are compatible with Plown 5 yet

Which is a little bit disappointing. So not a lot of ready to go yet Now Drupal on the other hand This and we're talking about Drupal 8 so Drupal has over 35,000 modules available in their Download and extend kind of their add-ons section. Now the issue is no, I

Was gonna say this is definitely again a double-edged sword, I think because Drupal is typically has shipped with a Less core functionality out of the box. They expected most people to build modules to extend it to get to the level of

Plown I mean probably in Drupal 7 compared to Plown 4 you had to add in about 35 or more modules into Drupal just to get to kind of feature parity with what Plown gives you out of the box and Once you've added those 35 modules in who's to say they're gonna stay maintained upgraded There's a lot of lock-in that can happen now when you do filter down by only Drupal 8 you're down to about

1700 packages so they have the same you're gonna see a lot of parallels between our communities We started nearly the same time We released Plown 5 and Drupal 8 about nearly exactly the same time and the adoption rates have been About the same kind of path. I'll show that later I got a graph showing kind of adoption of Drupal 8 and it's been slow and

the developers have been slow to Update their add-ons for Drupal 8 as well, which is like I said a problem. I think yeah So there's not really 35,000 modules available. There's far far far fewer than that But here is that one cool feature I think we should add into Plown which is this

If you want to install a new module you just come in here and paste in the URL to the drupal.org site It goes and grabs it. I Would hope they're doing some kind of code signing signature checking hash stuff. Oh boy. Well, we should do it like that Because it's a cool feature for newbies if someone's coming to the site and they want to be like

I really want to try Plown FormGen. How do I get it? Well, he's supposed to add it into your build.org or your setup.py and you go rerun this thing And then that's how you get this add-on This is way way nicer from a new person's perspective not understanding the whole ecosystem of how you add modules and add-ons into your site

Which Plown FormGen is a great add-on I always we always recommend it highly and they've addressed this a bit with the Drupal 8 stuff. I'll talk about that later when we get to the security slides But the content editing story between the two sites

Drupal 8 uses CK editor, which is available as an add-on for Plown But that's now the default out-of-the-box editing experience and obviously Plown is using TinyMC 4 which is quite nice Now the big difference is is how they lay out their content So we'll talk a bit about you know, okay. So yeah, here's Plown 4 with our nice TinyMC 4

I'm pretty excited. We got that finally upgraded And I'll talk a little bit about editing content One of the nice things about editing content is this is this is probably our super secret sauce right here is the fact our workflows Are so extendable so tied into security There's just a lot of benefit to be able to track the state of items and have multiple states and have transit multiple kinds

Of transitions and all the things we can do with our workflow system just kicks the snot out of what you can do in Drupal So in Drupal, here's the the CK editor You see you've got kind of a very stripped-down Toolbar there. You can actually change what kind of toolbar you get right from the edit box

If you're more of a power user of CK editor, you can get more buttons available to you or you can go to plain text and all the button sets are editable through their control panel kind of like ours are for a TinyMC So again, very very similar now if you want to brace yourselves for their whopping workflow Set up here. This is pretty much the workflow

Save and publish or save as unpublished like it's on or off. There's not really a Concept of moving things through states in Drupal so this there's kind of the biggest area of departure and differences here is that their workflow system is It's on or off. So it's great for simple. You need simplest use cases where people aren't

trying to do like a Vacation leave forms through their internet where they want to be able to have approval processes going on there They're not really trying to model business processes here They're just basically saying either the page is visible or the page is not visible And we'll talk again a little more about that in the security section, but they do have some workflow add-ons

They've not been maintained. Unfortunately, the last update workflow NG had was in 2014 There's a rules add-on that apparently replaces it I don't think it's it's still in beta for Drupal 8 at this moment So there's not really that many great options even to go to a more robust State machine type workflow for us

So when you want to customize your product and you want to go hire some people to actually do some development for you What is that going to cost typically in each in each community?

So I asked we kind of looked at this the typical going rates for independent contractors in the Plone community is anywhere between 50 and $100 an hour the typical Consulting companies charge between like a hundred hundred eighty-five dollars an hour That's kind of the going rates for a consulting work in Drupal. That doesn't seem to be much of a distinction between freelancers and shops

There's not like there's a couple big shops, but really there's a it's about the same pricing It's about 50 to 200 dollars an hour for Drupal resources Because some some of these pretty high profile sites have got some dollars So that's why they kind of got that top end But there's a huge amount of the low end like $50 an hour, you know, Drupal developers that are out there

Now when it comes to customizing clone You you basically got build out You want to add on add-on packages for your site if you want to make a custom theme or content type We typically make a custom Policy package that was placed where you may put your workflow policies You may save out generic setup exports of your settings things like that is what you'd put into these kinds of packages

What's nice with the custom development now in Plone 5? And this was in Plone 4 too is the dexterity custom content types being able to do this stuff through the web This gets us much more in line with the the Drupal 8 the Drupal 7 experience of creating their content types through the web as well

So those people are going to be a lot more comfortable now coming over to Plone and be able to do Basically, click click click build some content types and be able to be productive inside of Plone And what's also nice we can round they have the same feature where they can basically create their content types through the web and

Then export them out as yaml to the file system I love the fact that we can take these and export these out as XML and actually use them inside of our content types package And didn't redistribute that as an add-on if you found me who made something was generically interesting to other groups Now customizing Drupal 8 has actually gotten a little more

Sophisticated or complicated depending on who you ask in the Drupal community. There's actually been a fork of Drupal at Drupal 7 called backdrop Because this Drupal 8 is a major departure from the What was the typical way of developing core Drupal and making new Drupal add-ons? They moved to this new symphony

Basically web application framework they ripped out the whole bottom end and replaced it with a new basically a component architecture system Well as I was talking to my my friend Doug about symphony and customizing Drupal. He is not a fan He's like you have to have a computer science degree anymore to be able to customize things you got to have to you have to

Like dig down into like five different directories and edit ten different files to be able to add something to Drupal I mean you sound like you're talking about Plone You'd be very comfortable as a Plone developer looking at the symphony framework Basically what they've done is is mimicked a lot of things we gained in Plone 2.5

So that when we incorporated Zope 3 into Plone We started getting you know the component architecture stuff You know adapters and views and all those all those kinds of nice things that we got in Plone 2.5. They just gotten in Drupal 8 They can export their settings now out to the file system. I like kind of generic setup So again, I think we would be fairly comfortable with this new set of tools

But I think it's been hampering some of the developer adoption of Drupal 8 because they did such a radical change on the back end Now when you're customizing Drupal they do have a lot of different ways to do it This is one area where they've got a lot of flexibility. There are some cool Command line tools such as the drush shell. So they've got this thing called drush makefile. So that's like the Drupal shell

Tool so you can actually you do the templating and boilerplate code kind of we do with mr Bob or what we used to do with templar or zope scale. Same thing for Drupal console They finally in PHP have a way of basically pip installing and pinning versions And that's called conductor

So if you start doing any Drupal you want to make sure you get familiar with conductor because that allows you to pin versions So you don't get Let's just say a bad experience when you go to like run the upgrade and all sudden you've got new versions of packages But they do rely still on a heavy through the web experience the typical integrator or Drupal developer is going to start through the web

They're going to create their information architecture and their content types first there and then export them out to the file system So they can move them into their other various environments Here's the this is their custom content type basically cool of our

dexterity is that you can create I've created a What is this a recipe? So this is a recipe content type. You just basically click add field that field that fields They've got different kinds of fields, you know, for example text long format with summary or standard text But it's basically a whole set of like different fields like we have for dexterity for building their content types And then it gets exported out of XAML to the file system

Oh, so another nice thing I've we kind of talked about and we've given it a little bit of hosting Getting started with Drupal actually is made pretty easy if you're using one of the The new hosting providers that is available in the Drupal community. One of the example ones I'll talk about is called Pantheon

And you basically go sign up for an account Tell them you want a new Drupal 8 instance. It spins up a dev, testing, and production instance for you simultaneously And gives you a git repository that you just clone back to your machine and as you make changes and push you pick which Environment you're gonna, you know, migrate that or push that code to

So it really makes it like they've got kind of best practices baked in with a system like that So if I was going to start with something with Drupal on a project I would use one of these services because it really helps guide you through the development process of Customizing Drupal and making sure you're doing it in a well-tracked way We'll talk about theming now, unless you guys have questions about customizations. So in Plone

This is an area where I'm really happy is that I think Diazo has really improved our Customization story and theming story tremendously for people who are new to Plone No longer do you have to learn, I think I had to write down the list because it was so big

ZPT, ZCML, Python code, Python scripts component architecture, adapters, browser views, like there's this almost endless list of z-words You have to learn to be able to do theming in Plone previously to Plone 5, well and Plone app theming in Plone 4 so I think we've made a great stride here that if you can sit a designer or a

web engineer down and have them know HTML, CSS, JavaScript and then Where is Annette? Oh, if you can be an XSLT ninja like Annette, oh my gosh So you can do amazing things literally without having to leave your browser window So I was really impressed with the presentation this morning about what you guys have been doing with the Diazo rules

So and it doesn't seem like it's unapproachable That's probably the biggest technology you gotta learn is the Diazo rules. It's not too big a deal So a screenshot of our Plone app templating It gives you the ability to do through the web Create your rules, create your templates,

Do all this customization. Oh, yeah, and the fact that we now with the mock-up inside Plone 5 It's really easy to bring in fancy-pants JavaScript libraries and do cool stuff with react or moment or whatever the things you want to like try out It's way way easier to do that now than it was before

Drupal theming It's not like what we have known Plone 5 It's more like what we had in Plone 4 and Plone 3 You basically have this concept of main base themes and you typically when you're making a theme You make a sub theme and just override the pieces from the base theme that you want to change

What's interesting that the templating language they use now in Drupal 8 has changed it used to be PHP templates So you actually wrote like real PHP code in your templates Which was a source of a lot of the security vulnerabilities that came out with Drupal prior to 8 Twig is a templating language that we will all be very familiar with because it was written by our very own Armin Ronecker

So it looks just like Jinja 2 or Django templates and it's very nice And this has actually led to a tremendous improvement in the security of Drupal 8 So again as Plone developers, we would be probably pretty at home or Python developers in general We were pretty at home with the twig templating system

But it's very similar to how scanning used to work in Plone Where you would override like base view or whatever document view whatever kind of thing you wanted to customize You do the same kind of thing with Drupal 8 You basically override in a sub theme the bits and pieces you want to do to customize your look and feel so it's still the same thing HTML, JavaScript, CSS and

And this twig it comes as part of the symphony 2 framework that they move to with Drupal 8. Yeah No, that's another big difference They don't have a through the web editing experience for Drupal. That's another big win

I think on the Plone side is the new the through the web templating. Right now if you want to customize and modify these themes or create your own sub themes You do have to do it from the file system

Yeah, yeah on top of this. Yeah. Yeah, so

Exactly for for people making their own modules for Drupal. They will provide what are called hooks So if you want to add something into a menu someplace you make your own hook and write your own code in there and it Injects it into the you know, whatever menu you put in there but like you said their one developers menu hook is gonna look different than another developers menu hook and it may be difficult to

Yeah, they do that. That's where their views come in. So they have like layouts with these views They put blocks wherever they want to put them and those also are hooks

So that the module developers will make their own blocks and they have different code styles for all those as well When you install Drupal and actually when you're using Drupal This is another area where we differ quite a bit is there's typically gonna be a default theme and that's the kind of front end That most of these web visitors are gonna see for your site, but they also install and they kind of can't see it down here

But there's a administration theme So you typically may have a one single base theme and two sub themes One strictly for like editing like they use the content contributor content editor experience and one which is for the web visitors who are coming Into the site so you really don't get that full in context editing like we do with Plone that as I'm editing the page

I still see a lot of the page around as well. So that's interesting. They've got this administration theme default theme Going back and forth. So you'll you'll flip back and forth between these versions of the site This is the administration theme and you see the back to site button up there in the left-hand corner

That's the that gets you back into the the retail version of the site itself So this is kind of just showing the theme registry they've used YAML to set up kind of a settings file That's how they hook up things inside of your modules when you create an add-on for Drupal And they typically your standard theme package is gonna have a templates directory actually in Drupal 8

You have to put your templates in the templates directory or it won't find them correctly It used to be you could name whatever you wanted, but they have the YAML files that describe the the The add-on to the module for your theme and then all the config and CSS go all through in there now, this is the

This is the views part of this So you set up the your information architecture? Yeah, like oh you mean through the oh The content editing experience, right? Okay. Yeah, that's something I didn't dive into too deep

All right, because they give a little pencil like when you kind of hover over sections of the site now We turned that off in Plone Okay, because it was a pain in the butt But yeah, they do so when it gets down to like blocks you'll see here There's like kind of like we have viewlets everyone here familiar with like the view of the system inside of Plone

There's all those little spots throughout the pages where you can inject like your own Snippets of code or part of the view they do theirs through the web with this section called blocks and so this is where you can actually say I want to put the site branding into various areas the main navigation and

Configure what pieces go where it's basically the equivalent of us configuring our our view It's you know, throwing the net nav into the header review lit, etc That's that's their equivalent for you and they do it all through the web Which we can kind of to with the at manage viewlets, but we don't typically show that to normal human beings Gets a little tricky

Now upgrading and migrations this again is an area where we will differ but Drupal 8 is working on this One nice thing about Plone is you could take a Plone 1.0 site and You could migrate it step by step by step all the way up to Plone 5 And actually have a usable site afterwards Plone comes with a great set of documentation at every release for all the things you typically need to do between

Between versions if you want to make sure your add-on code is ready for the next version of Plone Now if you want to Migrate code in and out of Plone we've got through the community not built in but through the community There is you know, like transmogrifier pipelines for example

So you can actually export and then read don't cut dump and reload if you wanted to start fresh with your site Depending on the age of the site the number of custom add-ons you'd ever put into your site I will recommend the dump and reload version of it versus the try and walk it all the way through from Plone 1 To Plone 5, but if you haven't had a lot of add-ons or it's a very clean site

It's very very feasible to go right from you know Whatever version of Plone straight up through to Plone 5 Now again add-on products will be the real sticking point for you If you're on add-on products that haven't updated their code for Plone 5 You're stuck until they do or you remove it and put some kind of alternate technology in there. A big advantage of Plone over Drupal

With our given our kind of large robust feature set I typically think we don't have as many add-ons or modules installed into our sites Which makes them a little more able to to migrate easier The Drupal sites so until up until Drupal 8 each previous version of Drupal was basically a fork of the previous Drupal and

Started from scratch like scorched earth almost so Migrating from one version of Drupal to the next version of Drupal was was typically not a priority for them they kind of expected you to Dump your content out upgrade the newest version of Drupal and redo everything from scratch If you're gonna actually migrate to a new version of Drupal. It's changing with Drupal 8

They are stabilizing their API's they're trying to make them more backward compatible So if you're going from 8 to 8 1 to 8 2 or to 9 The idea being it would be possible to actually migrate your content in place But that's not been historically the case for much of Drupal But then you have the same problem with add-on products

But but a much greater scale because you probably have a lot more modules installed into your Drupal site for that Yeah They also have ability for you to do migrations in and out of Drupal So people would typically do a what's called a Drupal to Drupal migration when they're going from like version 5 to 6 6 to 7

Etc, which dumps it out to the file system and then you reload it back in as part of the Drupal migration So hosting for the two kinds of technologies the clone hosting Can be done on, you know, lots of different kinds of cloud services What I typically find with clone hosting though is it's a lot of do-it-yourself

You need to do set up the machines install the dependencies There aren't a lot of these push But there aren't hardly any push button ways of installing and hosting a clone out there other than say like the Heroku button But has anyone run the Heroku at scale with any kind of a large site with large traffic?

Yeah, I haven't either I'd be interesting to know how that how well that works because that's a really compelling story for getting people started with clone for sure But if you have it even the most modest site I would recommend people running Zio using two cores on a VM someplace maybe about a gigabyte of RAM Because it all varies based on the number of add-ons you've got in your site the amount of content you got in your site

But just a general kind of rule of thumb. I don't typically go much smaller than that I've got some pricing in here as well So for example Something a digital ocean will cost you about 20 bucks a month EC2 I'd recommend no law smaller than like a t2 medium for a reasonable sites, but that's about $37 a month

I was surprised Azure was so expensive as they went hosting on Azure currently That's probably why it's a little pricey and then obviously I have to Pep my own services a little bit here But six feet up does offer kind of entry-level hosting of clone sites at $50 a month as well

Yeah, actually I didn't put Google compute in here. You know why? Cuz no one's using it Yeah, no the I actually had a coffee with a guy from Gartner and we were talking about the various cloud platforms And basically the enterprise is scared to death of Google compute because of the way Google can willy-nilly kill off any platform

So at any moment you could be the victim of Google's choices So and then we also like said the Heroku button I think is quite interesting for free I think you can get up to about 200 pages of content in your site before you need to start paying for the postgres

Dino because I think you get like down 10,000 rows for free in the postgres database offered there similar situation Yeah, oh Wow True. Yeah, if you've just got kind of a small brochure where site

That will work. Like I said, this has been a three month process that price play got put in there a month and a half ago and For Drupal it's pretty similar as far as like the size of kind of horsepower You need to host a reasonably sized Drupal site with comparable traffic and amount of content

the Difference here though is you can have a di di di y do-it-yourself Drupal deployment, but there's so many great services out there like this Pantheon Platform sh where they just set up, you know multiple instances for you

They actually have buttoned this push button. I want to bring my production data back to my test instance I want to migrate this code changes up to the new instance. A lot of them will even go so far as If your code is with them in their repository and there's a new version of Drupal out there So I'm already set up to basically Splat the update of Drupal automatically onto your thing and you just need to go push a button to approve that you want that

Released so they really eased out there. I use the experience of deploying Drupal You can host with a quiet calm, but if you have to ask it's probably too expensive for you So it's it's quite pricey from what I know Another nice thing these these other Pantheon and quiet and platform sh give you is a lot of them will also include services like new relic as part of that

Plan for $25 a month. You'll get Drupal hosting with new relic stats If anyone's needs new relic It's it's a pricey service on its own and it gives you a wealth of information about what's going on behind the scenes inside Your site so that that's also pretty cool Performance like so web performance both systems

Have similar techniques for accelerating. I mean if you guys are already familiar with using varnish and HAProxy and memcached for auth and sessions The two systems almost look identical when you go look at their performance pages about how to actually accelerate pages Plone though out of the box has some advantages with our Plone app caching

Control panel, you know, we have the ability through the web to kind of adjust and do some settings Where how you know for how long you want to cache something? Basically, you can kind of customize the caching experience through the web Plone also allows us to purge Send at least a very minimalistic purge request for at least the page and maybe the container it's in

The Drupal out of the box experience doesn't have that what's also nice of Plone is you you can with a very small extension Customize that purging behavior So if you want to make sure the front page gets purged that item happens to be showing on the front page as well You can do that really easy with Plone The Drupal 8 they they don't have the purge capability out of the box

There's an add-on that you would have to put into your site to be able to get purging working correctly Now one thing that is really cool that Drupal 8 that we don't have is the new big pipe Facebook big pipe. Have you guys heard of big pipe yet? That is a really cool technology, so if you guys have gone to who here is on Facebook

Yeah, okay We're gonna raise your hand if you go to Facebook and you've ever noticed that when you first launched the page you see like Great placeholders that look like the posts on your wall And then all of a sudden they kind of filter in with like the real ones. That's big pipe basically, they consolidate the Non-personalized version of your page into a very few number of requests get that to you quickly and then they stream in the dynamic

bits behind the scenes Drupal 8.1 ships with this out of the box Which again, that's a pretty fantastic performance feature and something maybe we shouldn't even look into in the Plone community because it helps with like it was a talk yesterday about the

Google AMP yeah Exactly same kind of thing to help accelerate and I think that's gonna be really important for mobile devices on varying degrees of nice connectivity So that's one area where I think Drupal has Added some really nice

customizations for the performance I'm sure this is the slide everyone's been waiting to hear about right? It's security each Community Plone and Drupal has a secure dedicated security team How many people are in our security team? I couldn't find a number Steve you know or Nathan? Where's Nathan on here?

I'm guessing it's like five six people are kind of our security team. They're very busy there. They do great work, but It's that it's that secret, right? Drupal security team is 40 dedicated people Some of them paid by their employers at least that maybe a half-time or some percentage of their their work time is actually dedicated to

Drupal security They obviously have a lot to do as we've seen in the past But What's nice if we Plone has only had Reports of a very few sites being hacked and those sites basically weren't patched within six months of their release day of the patch

so It's very rare that Plone sites are actually going to be exploited especially as the people are being vigilant about applying their patches So we have you know, the no zero day Claim we make I think it's pretty important for people who care about security Yeah, I went to that exact page and I only saw like two people because I wasn't logged in

Okay, so yeah, it's all secret. You guys are very you guys are very secretive with your security team membership Oh, you know, I got these slides slightly out of order. So that's kind of when it comes to like security teams

One of the nice things about Zope and Plone is that we were built on Zope. I think that's a big benefit for us when it comes to security We've basically been able to leverage that built-in roles and permissions system and we've augmented it with our own users and groups Where we have a really fine-grained experience

For being able to customize who can see what when and where and when you combine that with our awesome workflow tools You really get this tight experience when it comes to ensuring people can't see things when they're not supposed to see them or making sure Pages get published or kind of the whole experience is really nice and I like that out of the box We give we have the built-in roles of like contributor editor reader reviewer site manager and manager

When we look at what Drupal does in which we will in a second. You'll see it's a very different experience We also have you know Very easy check boxes here and what these should for most people who don't know these Security settings check boxes that are in the through the Plone experience actually manipulate that. Well, they actually manipulate this

Which is something I tell people never to touch Because this is not meant for any human to ever touch if you were just this page is long I don't know if you guys have seen this. This is the security tab at the root of your Plone site And again, if anyone ever learns anything from me, it should be to never touch the screen under any circumstances

Let Plone do it through the Plone because that's what it's doing for you here But this is also part of our power The fact that we get down to such a granular level With what people can see and do and you can think of all these permissions in Plone is like little Little locks or little gates that kind of unlock or show functionality through the site

Plone or Drupal doesn't have nearly this robust of a system This is the equivalent of their security tab This is out of the box. You can see that there's three Roles two of which are basically virtual roles like we have authenticated anonymous

If you want to do more than this It's up to you to kind of design your security scheme by adding in your own roles And then again checking the boxes that it's a long it's a long page not as long as ours But it's a long page of managing checkboxes. That's how they do their roles and security inside of the Drupal system So again, I think it's an area where we really excelled because we're built on top of a system that thought about this first

I think Zope was made with security in mind Yeah, so they now they do in Drupal 8 so all the Drupal 8 settings can all be exportable into YAML Just like we have a generic setup exporter. They have a similar thing here as well as well So they can move those from like environment to environment

for example Yeah at the wet level Yeah, right now the individual piece of content is either published or not published

Not that I could see out of the box now We didn't dive too terribly deep into it But we have got an amazing system when it comes to like local roles And if you haven't checked out dynamic local roles with b-org local role, that is amazing I mean the fact that we can customize based on any fact or data inside the system or even external to the system

Yeah, there's is gonna be based on like the type of content like certain certain users may have

Like you said access to create this kind of content versus that kind of content But not where they put the content inside the site that's handled by their view system This is about the only other security settings I could dig up in the in the Drupal site was kind of the registration and cancellation

So that's kind of the equivalent of our security tab inside of Plone Now when it comes to security track records, I really only wanted to compare Plone 5 and Drupal 8

They're not too far off from each other. I mean this you kind of when comparing, you know exploits numbers I really don't matter too much in security because it's about track record. It's about severity There's so many different factors to take into consideration So I wouldn't look at these numbers and be like, oh well Drupal 8 is way less secure than Plone

They've got a very vigilant security team They've changed up their framework quite a bit to address a lot of these kind of security issues and They're they're right on par with I think, you know, the improvements that are showing here in the numbers The reason these numbers are so low is because there's such low adoption of Drupal 8

This graph here is showing Drupal core usage. And so you can see here is 2016 Here's January 2016. This line here at the very bottom is Drupal 8 Yeah, that's Drupal 8 The big ones up here are Drupal 7 and 6. Yeah, 7 and 6

That's total. Yeah, but this is a Drupal 7 right here. So Drupal 7 is still Hugely popular out there. Now when I say hugely popular, it's really not that popular. If you look down here This is WordPress usage WordPress accounts for about 26.4% of all CMS sites out there. Drupal is about 2.2. So in terms of scale

Drupal is dwarfed by WordPress Kind of much the same way we're dwarfed by Drupal So you can see we're kind of long in the long tail of CMS usage out there So the reason we've not seen a lot of security issues with Drupal 8 is definitely because I think the adoption rates for Drupal 8. The numbers here

The total number there is 1.2 million sites reporting back for Drupal As of last week, there are a hundred and twenty five thousand Drupal 8 sites out there There's only 41,000 January 1st. So they're getting adoption, but it's still not taking off like crazy

I wish we had this for Plone Like we don't have any way of that We don't report back to home about our versions like I think we should because it'd be interesting to have those kind of same numbers for us Alright, so intellectual property and community I love this because we are awesome community. We've been around since 2001, but Plone 5 got released in September

We created our foundation in 2004 so I think we were ahead of the game when it came to protecting our product in our IP and in our community and It's just, you know, 895 contributors have put code into Plone at some point in time along the way

Which I think is also awesome, but then I heard about the Drupal numbers They've had over 3,000 committers into Drupal. This says 150. I got this off of Ollo. It's not accurate They actually have a Drupal commit tracking site out there that shows you for this version of Drupal How many people committed what their names were and what they committed. It's quite interesting

Very similar history. First Drupal released in 2001, Drupal 8 was released in 2015 They started a Drupal Association in 2009. Now the Drupal Association isn't like our Plone foundation necessarily They are mostly there to raise money and run the events like the Drupal cons and things like that

So they do a lot of promotion, but they are not the IP holder or trademark holder for Drupal that is still Solely controlled by Dries and this is the copyright statement right from the code I don't know how this scales when you've got 3,000 contributors if they all own their original like work that's inside the code So it seems to be run by best good neighbor policy so far. They've not run into any kind of problems

That scares this this part scares me right here because if they if they want to change their license What do they do? How do they do? How do they go about this? This is just it would be an insurmountable task if they ever wanted to do something like changing their license, for example

Then Drupal 8 has also spawned a whole new fork of Drupal off of Drupal 7 called backdrop So there's a new CMS out there for the people who are You know staunch. I like doing my Drupal 7 way of doing things actually Doug the guy who helped me with this presentation Is a big fan of backdrop as well. He kind of falls in line. He's they you saw the graph

There's a ton of Drupal 7 sites out there still and people want that to kind of continue. So they're you know, maintaining enhancing They're backboarding some of the features of Drupal 8 when they can Into backdrop, but just be aware that if you are doing Drupal there is a a fork out there That is gaining some traction and its popularity. Oh

So as far as a community, I forgot to mention You know, so for Plone conference here we are. This is us, but we also have lots of sprints Symposiums lots of events where we get together And by comparison DrupalCon this year in New Orleans had over 3,000 people

Their regional events are getting about a thousand people per regional event right now, but they started their first con in 2005 With 50 to 100 people so kind of similar similar startings to us similar size They have the Drupal cons and Drupal camps lots of meetups around the globe So there's a big huge community of people doing Drupal out there

Really really nice powerful thing So in summary, I think we're seeing a lot of convergence of features between Drupal and Plone A lot of the through the web content type creation that Drupal has had for quite some time. We're finally getting you know Comfortable with and it's nice. They've moved Drupal 8's moved into a component style architecture

So we would be very comfortable if we had to do work on a Drupal site We would know how to go look up all the crazy abstractions. Thanks to Martin Isfeli Plone has always had collections Drupal is now added and then views to their core So if you're familiar with how collections work and views would be really really familiar to you if you went over to the Drupal side of things

And again the Plone if we can get mosaic I think we talked about that for the roadmap having mosaic put into the core Plone I think would be a big boost for us in terms of Feature parity with the Drupal folks because that would give us the ability to customize layouts and blocks on the pages. I Will just say it we absolutely kill it when it comes to workflows

We that's one of our biggest strengths and also the through the web theme with Plone app theming I think also gives us a leg up over the Drupal community The security standpoint for Drupal 8 is definitely looking much more optimistic than it used to We'll see as they get more adoption and more people actually using it and road testing against higher profile sites

Unfortunately, Plone hosting is still DIY the Drupal hosting options was really attractive They've always kind of had push-button installers into various dashboards, but I think that the fact that they've got these enterprise-grade deployment options is a weak point for For Plone because we don't have something that is comparable

At the end of the day, if you had to choose between the two, it really comes down to your needs. If you were doing a large internet collaboration site, various kinds of security and workflow, you need to have something like Plone. OK, for Drupal?

It's a workbench. But again, I was trying to compare the core features. So there's a lot of things you can add into Drupal. Yeah, it's not core. They definitely don't have that. But if you actually don't have a very technical staff,

and you need to onboard people very quickly to get spun up on a CMS, Drupal is actually very easy to get going with. I think they've made a great amount of effort in their documentation, the install process, the getting going process, the whole through the web process, and then these hosting providers giving you that ease of use between the environments. It's very easy to get a fairly non-technical staff spun up and starting to use Drupal.

I don't know what their experience would be later when they're trying to do more complex things. But I think the ease of use initially has definitely been a benefit for Drupal. So I want to thank you guys all for hanging with me. I know I went a little over, sorry. But don't forget to do your survey so I can get feedback so we can improve this presentation

and take it other places. Oh, shoot. It should be not that. But if you've used it earlier today, you should have it in your cache. So thank you all for coming.