Digital Marketing Platforms
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00:00
Computing platformDigital signalMultiplication signScheduling (computing)Computing platformDigitizingCanadian Mathematical SocietySinc functionComputer animation
00:55
DataflowCloning
01:28
Function (mathematics)BEEPGamma functionMereologyControl flowMenu (computing)GoogolCustomer relationship managementData managementAssociative propertyActive DirectoryGoogle AnalyticsArchaeological field surveyContinuum hypothesisCuboidQuicksortEvent horizonType theoryRight angleProduct (business)WebsiteComputing platformMereologyFreewareHypermediaCore dumpService (economics)EvoluteStrategy gameFitness functionClient (computing)CircleStability theoryRepresentation (politics)CausalityAutomatic differentiationWeightData managementContent management systemVotingLimit of a functionAxiomBitData conversionNumberAnalytic setWeb 2.0TwitterCanadian Mathematical SocietyContent (media)Level (video gaming)Computer programmingElectronic mailing listINTEGRALMultiplication signPlanningCohesion (computer science)FeedbackProjective planeShared memorySpacetimeEmailContext awarenessGraph (mathematics)FacebookIntranetDigitizing1 (number)CASE <Informatik>Customer relationship managementLaptopWeb pageAuthorizationDifferent (Kate Ryan album)
10:58
Data centerDecimalDataflowCovering spaceInfinite conjugacy class propertyView (database)AutomationInternetworkingMobile WebGamma functionBeer steinRiflingLoop (music)FacebookGoogolAlgebraWeb pageSingle-precision floating-point formatCuboidCartesian coordinate systemAutomatic differentiationTwitterPortletMultiplication sign1 (number)Dynamical systemMobile WebComputer configurationGoodness of fitQuicksortLine (geometry)Process (computing)Client (computing)WebsiteType theoryGauge theoryTerm (mathematics)Web browserContext awarenessFunctional (mathematics)AreaRevision control2 (number)Structural loadNear-ringMathematicsHTTP cookieMappingCASE <Informatik>Physical systemProfil (magazine)CloningSpectrum (functional analysis)Analytic setSlide ruleTablet computerRight angleUniform resource locatorSearch engine (computing)Mobile appUser profileDifferent (Kate Ryan album)Data managementBitWeb applicationCodeTrailWeb 2.0View (database)Content (media)Web pageSingle-precision floating-point formatComputing platformFacebookPoint (geometry)CodeContent management systemFree variables and bound variablesProjective planeDigitizingMereologyLogicDoubling the cubeFitness functionComputer animation
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AlgebraExpressionArchitectureSoftware bugContent management systemComputing platformCustomer relationship managementFront and back endsStreaming mediaMobile WebIsomorphieklasseGoogolCloud computingService (economics)Mobile appWeb pageSingle-precision floating-point formatHybrid computerContent (media)Computer clusterMachine visionComplete metric spaceTowerOpen setOracleWechselseitige InformationSoftwareVacuumWeb pageExpressionComputer architectureRepresentational state transferOpen sourceWebdesignMultiplication signRight angleDirection (geometry)CloningTwitterFormal languageFront and back endsQuicksortServer (computing)CodeCASE <Informatik>Canadian Mathematical SocietyContent (media)Presentation of a groupMusical ensembleProxy serverClient (computing)Reverse engineeringCross section (physics)Content delivery networkPoint cloudAsynchronous Transfer ModeData managementElectronic mailing listWebsiteSoftwareMobile appSinc functionWeb browserArtistic renderingType theoryCartesian coordinate systemPortletConnectivity (graph theory)Assembly languageKälteerzeugungElectronic visual displayMetropolitan area networkFacebookService (economics)DiagramDependent and independent variablesNumberAutomatic differentiationLink (knot theory)WeightIsomorphieklasse1 (number)Mobile WebSoftware developerDrop (liquid)System callAnalytic setWeb 2.0Ranking2 (number)Internet der DingeVolumenvisualisierungDebuggerLoop (music)Computer animation
29:45
Dressing (medical)Information securitySequelMechanism designPhysical systemPattern languageEnterprise architecturePoint (geometry)Multiplication signCore dump1 (number)WebsiteGroup actionConnectivity (graph theory)NumberCloningComputer configurationVulnerability (computing)Mobile WebResultantHookingCASE <Informatik>Product (business)Web 2.0ImplementationRight angleBuildingSign (mathematics)Vapor barrierCodeCanadian Mathematical SocietyLine (geometry)Term (mathematics)BitMusical ensemblePhotographic mosaicInheritance (object-oriented programming)Dynamical systemShared memoryComputer animation
39:03
Multiplication signVideoconferencingComputer animation
Transcript: English(auto-generated)
00:04
I think we're going to get started. I'm sure there will be some stragglers, but since we've got a schedule to stay on, my name is Ken Wasidis. I've done this before. It's been a few years, I guess, since I presented at a Plone conference.
00:20
I think, well, the Midwest symposium would have been the last time and probably Arnhem before that. So we're going to talk about digital marketing platforms. Who has heard of a digital marketing platform before this conference? OK, all right, a few people. I would say three or four years ago,
00:42
I would vaguely know what that is, but it wasn't really something on my radar. Like you, I probably spent most of my day just knee-deep in CMS problems and wasn't really seeing the big picture, maybe. And that's what I hope to cover in this talk.
01:01
So why are we doing all this Plone stuff anyhow? Why are we here? I'm going to get all existential on you here. So not so much why we're here or why Plone's here, but what do we use Plone for? What's the ultimate purpose? So I think some of us use Plone to better the world,
01:23
and some of us use Plone maybe to be rich and famous, wear fur coats, pay the rent, nothing to change. Kicking it old school here with Peter Drucker, he said an often quoted thing, which
01:43
was that basically everything comes down to marketing and innovation. Everything else is just cost. So I think as we think about where Plone should be, as we continue to move forward in the evolution of Plone, we have to keep looking at how are we helping either nonprofits
02:03
or media companies or whoever market their services, their missions, their goals. And if we're not innovating, like you've seen a lot of innovation happening at this conference, maybe some of it's it'll settle down and be part of core in two years or something,
02:20
but there's a lot of innovation going on right now in Plone. And if we weren't doing that, then we would just be talking about how we can get Plone to be $5 a month or $4 a month or free and probably wouldn't have a very vibrant and viable community or ecosystem of add-on products around Plone. So we have to keep innovating, but keeping in mind
02:43
that it's for a purpose. It's not just for technology's sake. Oh, I'm going to have to be within eyeshot of my laptop, I think, infrared. So at the most basic level, what are we trying to do with websites usually, right? In some cases, you might have clients that do advertise.
03:03
A lot of websites I worked on had really no advertising, and I suspect that's true of a lot of people in this community. We might work on intranets. We don't advertise for those. Or maybe you're working for some brand side. They don't really have advertising on their site.
03:21
They're trying to push their own products. But for a lot of the web, the idea is to cast a wide net using Google ads or whatever technology is to bring people in, get them to your website, get them to convert. So get them to either donate to your cause, get them to buy something, get them to sign up,
03:41
contact their representative for some policy you're trying to pass, whatever, and eventually to be able to measure that you've started off with audience that you've actually brought into your funnel, and they're now a member of your circle of customers or of sponsors,
04:06
donators, et cetera. Where does Plone fit into that? Again, in my years of Plone, I didn't really think about the marketing problem. It was just delivering on the ask from the client.
04:21
Did they just want a website with nine add-on products that gave them a carousel, that gave them a news feed, that gave them a social feed? It was just about executing what they had already asked for and not really backing up and asking them, hey, how does this fit into your overall marketing strategy?
04:40
Maybe I'm only involved on this CMS part of it, but what else are you doing? Where does Plone fit into that? Oddly enough, the first websites I worked on, this is back in 2002, I met Kelvin and a few other people at the first Plone conference in New Orleans,
05:02
and I had just launched my first Plone sites. And unbelievably, they were actually probably the busiest Plone sites I've ever launched. On a pre-1.0 Plone, it was like 0.9 something. And then we went to 1.0.5, which was super stable for a long time, right, if you remember those days.
05:21
But even back then, we had things like collections, topics back then. I had to actually think about that today. What were they called back then? CMF topic. Content types, we had a news item. We had events. We had all sorts of cool things out of the box 15 years ago.
05:40
It's amazing. Still would hold up today. These sites eventually, as you might see across the top, these entities were owned by a huge media conglomerate called Clear Channel Entertainment. We launched six Plone sites in three months on $30,000. I mean, it's just amazing when I think back about it. So I probably dealt more back then with advertising on sites
06:03
than I have since then. Most of the sites I work on, again, are about trying to promote whatever that product or cause or whatever is not driving revenue from advertising. But it is something that is very popular in the WordPress
06:21
and Joomla world. I mean, those sites are driving revenue. They're not just for awareness of different causes. So I think it's important for Plone to still play in this space and to consider the whole marketing problem
06:40
set, not just producing content, just marketing content or authoring and publishing content. This is a crazy Where's Waldo graph that's used a lot now at marketing conferences, marketing technology conferences. The site is chiefmartech.com.
07:01
It's a really great site for reading about all these types of things. So Plone actually is on this graph. That whole box is CMS and web experience and has all sorts of content management systems there. And then there are things like e-commerce platforms, CRM,
07:26
feedback and chat, the content marketing, email marketing. So it's kind of a bizarre number of companies that are playing in these different spaces,
07:43
these niches, but I guess it kind of makes you think, OK, I remember one client integrating with Salesforce or Sugar CRM or something, or I remember this client that wanted to use discuss or add this or share this.
08:00
And I guess, again, as we start on new Plone projects, if we back up and talk to clients about what else are you planning to use, we could jointly plan out, map out a marketing strategy with a digital marketing platform, not just a stovepipe kind of piecemeal,
08:21
hey, I want this little tech solution, this little tech solution with no sort of cohesive plan. Sometimes you'll implement a site for a client and you'll find out two months down the road after you've handed it off, they've started to just cherry pick things they want to add on to it. And sometimes they do it not so well and other times it does go well.
08:41
But anyway, if it's done more jointly with the integrator, I think it can be done better. So those were some technologies that I think I've either integrated or heard others integrating over the years, some pretty common ones. I'm sure the list is much larger than this,
09:02
but it's just one of those things, again, that I think if we go from start to finish and talk about it as a digital marketing platform, we can, now this is without all the busyness of the logos, but you can actually start to map out, like what are you guys doing for advocacy and loyalty
09:22
programs? What are you doing for social media marketing? Do you have a certain goal of the number of tweets or Facebook posts you want every week, and do you have someone that does that? When you talk about web analytics, you just want to know the number of visitors per month, page views, or are you actually
09:41
going to see how people are driving through your site? And are they, again, going back to that sales funnel, are you driving them to conversion, whatever that is for you? Is it clicking a donate button or contact your senator or whatever it is?
10:02
One of the things I think, I don't think you got into a lot of detail, but one of the things I think Ethan, in his ethical DMP talk, probably talked about a little bit was more data management platforms. So there's another sort of DMP you'll hear about.
10:20
And those tools allow you to pull in third party data from companies like Axiom and Epsilon and DoubleClick, all these companies that are tracking what you're viewing and what you're upvoting and things like that, and actually pulling that in and creating
10:43
segments. And this is what marketers do. They're taking all this data, trying to tie it to their visitor data, their first party data. And if they think that women between 25 and 34 are a target market, especially those in the Northeast part of the US, they can create a segment.
11:04
And as your tracking codes and everything that you've got on your site determine you fit into that segment, certain content can be targeted to you. Those are a lot of different types of systems.
11:23
And this kind of contextualizes it a bit differently. There's different sorts of systems you might use to decide. So Python obviously plays a great part right now in data science and analytics, as well as things like DevOps.
11:45
So it's great that Python is really able to cover this whole spectrum. But I think we're going to see that Plone kind of fits in this area, where you've got web apps and kind of the data in the middle here,
12:01
and then all these other things kind of tie into your content management system, your data management platforms. This is where all the data is sitting, whether it's content or profile data. Then you've got all these other systems. So things like I was saying, that do targeting of content,
12:22
or in this case, like AB testing, which is targeting as well. And I think it can be a little easier to look at it this way than just a bunch of boxes. But it's kind of a different way of saying the same thing. So as you're mapping out your digital marketing platform
12:42
with a client, you can kind of see, do we have all these different areas covered? And it's doing it more by function. So I'm going to hit a few trends along the way, too. One of them is pretty obvious. I think everybody's aware mobile is surpassing or has surpassed desktop in terms of time spent
13:03
on that type of browser, that type of device every day versus desktop in terms of page views, web requests. So we're no longer in a place where we can take the left column of portlets,
13:20
right column of portlets, main content, and just see how we want to collapse that as we go down to tablet and mobile browsers. We obviously have to do mobile first. We've heard mobile first being talked about for years. But now it's absolutely a must. You must do mobile first and design up from there.
13:41
But you have to address the mobile market first. So what do we mean by mobile first? I'm a pitch for the company I work for these days, which is Sapient Nitro. If you visit their site, it's done in a mobile first fashion. So it actually works better and feels better
14:02
on a mobile browser or on a tablet than it does on the desktop, quite honestly. And the other thing I want to hit on with that one, so that's a slide, but I want to go to my browser real quick for that site.
14:32
So as you're clicking around, if you look at my URL, one of the other things I want to hit on here is you might have heard of single page applications.
14:42
So with the single page application, you see it is a near native experience. I mean, everything is reacting very quickly as if it's a native app on your phone. And you don't see the URL change all that often.
15:01
So when people are talking about single page applications, that's really what they're referring to. It's a near native experience. You're not waiting for a page load of two seconds or something with every click. So it does mean some additional loading up front, usually. But then from there, it's like you've
15:20
got a static version of a quarter of the website or something as you're clicking around. So the other thing I wanted to point out as we're viewing that site is I've got this little add-on called Ghostery. And it'll show me all the different trackers being used on the site.
15:41
So if there is double click or signal or whatever, and it's really handy, so I recommend doing it. You can also look at the types of data that's being tracked about you. If you expand into one of these, you can look at the cookies and what they're tracking about you and see if it's accurate. It's fun to go in there and see.
16:02
Based upon me viewing some news story, you might think that I'm an avid hunter, but I'm not. I'm going to go to a different site, a retailer site. And this is Saks Fifth Avenue. And they've got 37 trackers. So it's kind of amazing that you could need 37 trackers.
16:24
But I'm working with a client right now that has about 19 trackers. And so I can understand how these folks got to 39, because once you get past 15, no one knows who's using XYZ tracker. If we retire this, whose data are we blowing away?
16:43
Whose job is on the line that we've just screwed? So anyway, I think that's a fun thing to use to look at what sort of data is being tracked, but also what sort of vendors they're using. If you just look at some of the top retail sites
17:01
or other types of sites, you can get a good gauge for what tools are probably the most prominent top tools out there, if you were to be investigating using these types of things, just by seeing what other companies are using.
17:20
Deck here.
17:43
So some other trends, and this is kind of startling, or it was to me just a few months ago when I read this. In the US right now for online advertising, $0.85 of every dollar goes to Google or Facebook. So Google owns DoubleClick. That's where most of that's coming in, but also search ads
18:01
feed into that, obviously. $0.85. So three or four years ago, people wondered how Facebook would make any money when they were going to go public. Now they're like the second largest ad engine in the US. We just covered single page application. One thing related to this, though, is personalization.
18:25
Obviously, when you're talking about a marketing platform, Plone has had out of the box some really, really good personalization options because you could have portlets that are super dynamic for a long time. And I remember sitting down with people that were doing Drupal or WordPress or some other tool,
18:43
and they were pretty much blown away by the fact that we had that out of the box. We could have a tail portlet that has whatever sort of custom code logic that I want, filter and present that content based upon this known user being in a certain segment or user profile that we've got or based upon what they've
19:03
been clicking on the site. But Plone has a lot of capabilities built in to do targeting, personalization, cross-promoting if they're viewing one type of content or one article or something.
19:20
Through our reference engine, we can present other articles that could be interesting. So some of the technologies behind these types of single-page app sites and mobile-first sites usually involve some of these things that we've been hearing about at the conference. The one that I'll point out the most is at the end there, this PhantomJS.
19:42
So a lot of these technologies might not be as search engine friendly right now. Google has gotten better, probably more specifically with Angular because they're the ones running that project really. And so even though this code might be designed to run in the browser on the client side,
20:02
it's originally when these came out, they weren't indexed really at all because all there is is a little placeholder for content that React is going to produce on the client side. But now Google is better about that, at least Google. I don't know about Bing. But PhantomJS is something you can use server-side besides
20:22
Node.js to have React code or Angular code run server-side so it spits out that HTML so it's nice and SEO friendly. And I know there was another presentation on Headless CMS. I was very glad to see that. I was just going to put up here a kind of a reference
20:44
architecture diagram that we use when we're explaining that topic to clients. And here we have, we've got a Node and Express app that's more of like our page assembler. So this could be running server-side.
21:02
Some of the components we might want to run server-side, some of the portlets or chunks of the page, and then other ones we want to have run in the browser. So you can use what's referred to as isomorphic rendering or behavior, which is the same React or Angular code can run either in the browser or server-side. And then things like strong loop also
21:22
on Node that can expose a nice swagger compliant REST API to your microservices. We've been hearing about that here at the conference too. And in this case, since we're talking about Headless CMS, the CMS is just one of the many microservices you could have behind this API.
21:41
So you could call your e-commerce engine if you need to manage account or do checkout, or you could call CMS to get latest news or whatever. Above this Node layer, this is all server-side. We've also got your CDN, which
22:01
could be Cloudflare or Akamai, things like MuleSoft and Apigee is an API cloud. So even though you've got this API here, this serves as a CDN for the API and then a reverse proxy.
22:22
We've also heard this. I just heard Lawrence Rowe talk about this a couple of talks ago. It's becoming really, really popular, and I think this is a huge opportunity for Plone to decouple the front-end development from back-end development. So if you think about the reason that the OZO came to be,
22:43
we wanted to make it easier and more approachable for design shops to build that presentation layer and implement it on Plone. Well, now with these technologies like React and Angular, they can build the front-end, the presentation layer, and those technologies.
23:00
And there's certain cases where you still need to build code on the server-side in Plone. But by decoupling them and having a REST API, the front-end team can build them whatever sort of front-end language they want, and they don't really care what's on the back end. Is it Plone? Is it Sitecore? Is it Drupal? Don't give a shit.
23:21
So it's a trend, but it's also a great opportunity for Plone, and it seems like things are heading in that direction. So I'm very encouraged. Bunch of the buzzwords we've had. Let's see. I think it was Sven that covered the right. Wasn't he the one that covered the Google AMP stuff?
23:42
So that's Victor. Yeah, that's right. So that's becoming more important, too. I just had a client a few weeks ago say, oh, we need. I read this article. Facebook says our render time has to be under three seconds, or else our mobile rankings in search are going to go down, and this and that.
24:02
Anyway, these things are getting popular, but it's mostly because Google and Facebook are really pushing them. So if you've got clients that are paying a lot of attention to their web analytics and where traffic's coming from, you might have gotten a call a year ago saying, hey, we're seeing like a 30% drop in our Facebook
24:21
referrals. What's going on? More and more, as we hit on people are on mobile, well, they're also staying within those native apps. So on Facebook, they click on something, but it still keeps them in Facebook. So they're not really launching off to external sites anymore, not nearly as much, especially if those sites have already
24:41
been indexed and determined to not respond very well. So in those cases, Facebook and Google are both promoting that you should use their technologies, which Google's is at least open source, to trim down the weight of your page and make it respond faster. But now, if you click on a link in Facebook
25:02
and it takes you to an instant article page, they are the supplier of the content, too. So they know your preferences, they control the content, they control the ads, and the next step will be you'll be purchasing stuff through your Facebook account that's hooked up to your bank.
25:20
What is it? WeChat in Asia is already doing that, and Facebook's just a little behind. So that's my contention, is Plone REST API is huge.
25:41
We've heard about it in a number of talks, and it might sound really technical if you haven't had this need to decouple front end and back end yet. But it's kind of like hearing people talk about responsive web design before you realize that you needed it or that you didn't want to pay for writing native apps and maintain a website.
26:02
So it's definitely a great step in the right direction. And click. So you might have also heard about content as a service. I'm kind of trying to play buzzword bingo. We talked about just about all those things.
26:24
One thing we didn't talk about is IoT device content. Might sound wild and crazy right now, but a year from now, you're probably going to be working on something for some client. We've got some device, a display for a refrigerator or whatever.
26:42
It's not as prevalent right now, but I guarantee in the next year or two, we're going to be designing content that needs to be delivered to IoT devices. Might be a watch, might be whatever. But by having content as a service and this REST API kind of opens up those opportunities too.
27:01
Everything doesn't have to be HTML. It's returned to some client. This looks like a sad visual, but it's actually a very happy visual for Plone because these represent all the tombstones of the many, many CMSs since I started working with Plone that are now defunct.
27:20
No one uses things like Red Dot, Percussion, and Stellent. I mean, these were all Magic Quadrant type of tools that Gardner would tell back in the day. This is from 2004. And yeah, interwoven, used here and there. But no one launches a new site on any of those things.
27:45
The only one on this list that's prevalent today really is this one. It used to be called Day. And it's Adobe Experience Manager now. It's funny that it was down there back then. Something really important happened around I think around 2010.
28:06
Adobe bought Day software. Day was based out of Switzerland. There were maybe half a dozen clients in the US at the time. Now Fortune 500 companies pretty much go AEM or Sitecore.
28:23
These other guys are gone. I worked on a tool. One of the first CMSs I worked on was one called Fatwire. It's not on here. Oracle bought them. Basically give it away for free to clients. And still no one uses it. So it was a really strong tool.
28:41
But yeah, it's just amazing. This is a really small cross-section of CMSs from back then. And almost none of them exist anymore. So viva la plone, and happy birthday.
29:00
Congrats, because it wasn't always so easy to convince clients to go with an open source CMS, because they'd say, well, what are you going to do when it's gone in two or three years? Here we are 15 years, and these other guys are all gone. So congrats to everybody that's made it happen. That's all I've got.
29:21
Any questions? All righty then.
30:12
I think some of the stuff Mosaic and Castle CMS are already trying to do in terms of going with a grid system instead of columns is definitely
30:22
going to help, not just for mobile sites, but even desktop ones that you want to have be responsive. I think that there's a number of really good add-ons already for Plone. Even for Plone 5, I know I recently built a small site with, I threw on add this
30:43
and discuss, took two minutes. It's great. I think some of the earlier talks we had, or Kelvin, showed how you can install in Drupal via the web. I think that would be huge. Same thing on WordPress right now. You can search for an add-on.
31:01
Oh, I like that add-on. Click, it's installed on my site. That would be huge. People can experiment and not have to run build-out. Low barriers of entry. Were you going to say something?
31:23
Could have like a flashing sign that goes, better know what you're doing. Yeah. You want to?
31:46
Let's see.
32:02
Yeah.
32:26
Yeah. I mean, both options are fine, but one
32:43
allows the Plone market share to expand, and the other makes sure that your enterprise implementation is really solid. Maybe there can be both. Maybe there's a sandbox that allows you to do that through the web so you can experiment, but then it has a big old thing that says you cannot run this
33:01
in production this way or something. I know, but it's very hard for a non-technical person to look at the command line. I think that has to get eliminated.
33:39
Yeah, you could do that too.
34:00
So one of the things I know, Acquia is the company. Kelvin had mentioned that the inventor of Drupal founded this company and got a bunch of venture capital money. That's what they do is they host Drupal, but then if you want this package, Jet Speed or something, Jet Pack, I think it is,
34:22
with 50 add-ons that we sanction are going to work, are secure, blah, blah, blah, then what was that? Oh, that. Drupal get in? Well, at least in that case, you've got some company that's catching it for you, and they're on the hook for it.
34:43
But I mean, I agree. Like the security vulnerabilities results that you reported, Kelvin, they just talk about core, I think, and not add-ons.
35:01
And so the more things you do add to core, obviously you're bloating core, but maybe there could be some review of a certain number of components by the security group as well so that you don't end up with security problems, because what's true for Drupal is probably true for us too. It's just there's maybe not as many millions of sites
35:22
out there on the phone, but probably those add-ons are less secure than core because they're not getting as many eyeballs on them. Some of it might be luck of the draw. Some of it is we're not using SQL or PHP. So there's some maybe inherent advantages, but still, there's got to be some add-ons out there
35:42
that are insecure. So it would be great if there were some maintained distributions, like you're talking about. I don't know if it means the security team would be signing up for also reviewing 50 other packages. I don't know that they'd want that.
36:00
OK. The distros security team maybe. I hear a volunteer. What was it?
36:40
Plone what gets installed? For artists.
37:05
So here's the thing. Every time, this is true.
37:26
I think the one thing I want to leave you with is that the point I was making about Day being bought by Adobe, and now all of a sudden they're rated as the top enterprise CMS, all that stuff. There's a similar pattern to what Drupal did and what WordPress did. I mean, by staying close to designers and marketers,
37:42
they got that lift. Day had a super solid engineered system, too, that no one knew about. Sound familiar? I mean, we all get together and have marketing sprints. We always say, wow, this is where our need is. But then our effort is over here in technology. And so we need to balance those out somehow,
38:07
whatever mechanism it is.
38:26
So when you're building and launching sites, someone designed the site, right? How do you partner better with those design shops that are doing that so that the next site they do is unblown? I think that's the key. Get them just super comfortable rolling out their next sites
38:41
unblown instead of them going to their de facto, well, I've got someone that knows HTML that can also hack a little bit of PHP. So WordPress, we're going with WordPress. Or those little scriptlets or whatever they call them that they include. Like, I know how to do two lines of code. Cool. I've got my dynamic news feed. We need more of that.
39:01
So that's super approachable. I think what Annette showed yesterday shows that a lot of it is, but I just don't know that most design shops are going to do XSLT somersaults. I think there's a few people that are capable of being gurus at that, but it's not everybody.
39:22
Rapido, I think a while ago. I have not recently, for sure. But I remember hearing about it, and I thought I checked into it, but I haven't used it.
39:45
Don't sell me on it. We need a video of it. It shows how easy it is and get people to do it.
40:03
Excellent. Let's promote it. All right, thanks. I think my time is up.
40:23
Appreciate it. Thank you very much.