NGI Zero: A treasure trove of IT innovation
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36C3: Resource Exhaustion85 / 254
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08:50
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InternetworkingEmailNumberPhysical systemFrequency2 (number)Direction (geometry)Content (media)Operator (mathematics)FeedbackIndependence (probability theory)Category of beingProjective planeProcedural programmingMultiplication signSelf-organizationCartesian coordinate systemWordSummierbarkeitMobile WebAverageComputer programMassOperating systemTerm (mathematics)InformationAddress spaceOrder (biology)Data storage deviceArmGoodness of fitBuildingWeightMonster groupFerry CorstenGroup actionPoint (geometry)Set (mathematics)Lecture/Conference
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Transcript: English(auto-generated)
00:20
the next generation Internet, a treasure trove of IT innovation. Your speaker will be Michiel Linares, he used to work for the Netherlands Science Foundation for the Internet Society, he is a W3C liaison officer, and he wants
00:43
to keep pushing the innovation of the Internet and move it into the next generation. Please welcome him on stage. So, I'm really happy that all of you came out here on the fourth day, because I understand
01:01
after all these long nights, this is pushing it. So, a quick trip back in time, so this room is named after a guy called Edsger Dijkstra, who 60 years ago published his PhD, he was a foundational guy
01:20
in computer science, and he did this work, this seminal work in an institute called CWI, or at the time Matamati Centrum in the Netherlands, and I mean the Association of Computing Machineries said that no other individual has had a larger influence on researching principles of distributed computing. So, 30 years ago, the organization where I work was founded, we became a foundation,
01:45
but before that, we operated for seven years at CWI in the Netherlands at the same place. So, these people were really forward-looking, and this is what it looked like. So, people with long beards, big computers, they just brought Unix to Europe,
02:04
and they were playing with it, and a network of hackers and volunteers basically hacked their way to what later became the European internet. Now, at that time, just to appreciate how early that was, the web was still a proposal.
02:21
It was still something that the manager of Tim Berners-Lee at CERN called a fake but interesting, and they gave him nine months of micro-grant to work on that. And obviously, the ideas at the time were that, I mean, this is a representative quote, if you think surfing hypertext is cool, that's because you haven't tried writing it.
02:41
It was very much the idea that we could make everything. Obviously, that's not the future that we got. Tim Berners-Lee himself, when he got the Turing Award, which is the Nobel Prize of Computer Science, he said, from utopia to dystopia in just 29 short years.
03:01
I mean, it's gone by amazingly fast, but if you read the optimism turned into despair, where the guy who invented the web says this is a large-scale emergent anti-human phenomenon. For an optimist, those are words that go to the heart.
03:24
And Dijkstra famously has said, well, people don't need to remember much of what I did, only that he would appear as some sort of a conscience of the sector, so that ten years after his death, if somebody would say Dijkstra would have not liked this,
03:43
that was the kind of idea that he wanted to exert to teach people how to be good computer scientists. So we are in this broken situation, so where do we go? Well, quickly rewind back to 1997, because the people that founded the Internet in Europe
04:05
actually were not professional business people, they were outsiders to the industry. So they sold everything, put it into a trust fund, and basically they gave it to the Internet, and that's the reason I'm here. The mechanism that we use is micro-grants, we give small amounts of people to independent people
04:25
and allow them to work for the Internet, to work in the public interest. And it's always open standards, open source, open hardware. So these are some of the projects that we funded throughout the years. You may or may not know some of them, but it's a pretty nice list,
04:45
and this is by far not all of it, because many projects don't even have a logo, because that's the kind of early work that was funded. Obviously spending money can be a bit of a problem if you don't have infinite amounts.
05:01
So that's a challenge for us, because we started giving away money, and it wasn't that much to begin with. So luckily we're seeing people pick it up, and some of the people that receive grants later make some money, and they start giving to us. For instance, there's a security company, Radically Open Security, where the employees collectively decided that they wanted to give pretty much all of the profit to us,
05:24
at least 90%, but so far that's been an amazing thing. And obviously that potentially can become a sustainable thing. Luckily, two years ago we ran into something called the Next Generation Internet Initiative,
05:40
and that was a major windfall for us, because so far public money on the Internet was kind of wasted, in all senses of the word. People would just write reports, and then fake projects would happen. So early on we helped them to do this study, where we established a vision for this whole initiative.
06:05
And interestingly enough, we published that last year, when we saw the topics of this conference, we hit two out of three in that report from last year. So we also had resilience, we also had sustainability, but we added trustworthiness.
06:22
That's the layer that we wanted to have. And so we defined those, the higher level goals of the program, and then immediately after that the Commission started handing out money, and obviously we were very lucky, we consider ourselves to be extremely blessed that we got two of these programs,
06:45
because that will allow us not to write paper, but to actually support people. And we brought a number of folks along to help us do that. I'm not going to read them out all, because you can look that up. But the reason I'm here is to talk about some of these amazing things,
07:03
because they're all small projects, but I guess we could fill a conference. There's 120 talks at this event, we have 150 projects. I'm going to do a quick version of them, or attempt to do a quick version of them in the next half hour.
07:27
So we have two programs. One of them is called Privacy and Trusting House Technology, and the other one is called Search, Discovery and Discoverability. And with that you can actually cover a lot of these grounds.
07:42
So an apology up front, I know there's people in the room, and I won't mention their project, because I have too many projects to mention, and it's just too complex to do that in half an hour. I have something like 15 seconds per project, so that would not make a lot of sense. And so if you know the project like Wireguard, then you'd be happy that we support it, but I don't need to detail it.
08:08
So let me begin with ActivityPub. So I'm going from the bottom up to end at the more fundamental metal layer, so to say. So ActivityPub is something that is a social networking protocol, and you may have seen it emerge in different places.
08:29
And the cool thing is, because of the money that we now have, we can actually support all these smaller projects. So PixelFed, which is trying to provide a sane alternative to photo sharing,
08:44
so the stuff that people do with Facebook and with Instagram. Funk Whale is a personal music server, Spritely is a more ambitious overall social network project. XWiki is a well-known wiki, and it's going to be added to the Fediverse.
09:04
Open Engiadina is trying to connect hyper-local events, so local music chapels, concerts in the library, small events. And then make sure that all this stuff isn't aggregated on Facebook or Meetup,
09:22
but actually comes and stays on the web, that people can actually get these events integrated. Discourse, you may know as a community platform, and it's also being activity-pavized, so to say. LibraCast is trying to create an alternative to tools like Twitch,
09:43
by enabling multicast live-streaming from just a simple device. The peer-to-peer project, we aren't supporting them directly, but we're supporting what will likely be the largest deployment with over, I don't know how many million hours of content that they will put on
10:01
built-in clients, the National Multimedia Archive of the Netherlands, and they will stress test this and add all kinds of cool stuff about copyright, open content licenses, subtitle search, and so on. ForgeFed is a project that rose from the sale of GitHub to,
10:25
well, it was sparked by the sale of GitHub to Microsoft, but in general, the idea is that people should be able to host their own software and host their own issue trackers, and then to federate these, because ultimately it's just a website, so why can't we have these integrated?
10:42
Fediverse space is trying to map out the whole Fediverse, and will make it possible for you to have a look and see where you fit if you don't want to host yourself, because like in the real world, there's a room for pubs, there's rooms for hotels, and there's rooms for people's own house, and for Fediverse, the same holds.
11:07
So for search, I guess one of the founding projects is Cirx. I don't know if people have used that, but it's a meta search engine, and it's trying to add the one thing that Google will never be able to do
11:21
is to have private resources that can stay private, and have these be integrated into the single search box that we all use all day, because we're lazy people, we don't want 20 search boxes, we only want one, so that if you want to have alternatives, then we need to be able to provide these private search domains.
11:42
So one of those domains is Mailpile, quite a well-known mail server, and Nextcloud is another one that is going to add with budget from us this private integration. Web X-Ray, Palmaze here, is a project that is going to help you understand
12:00
when you're searching to not just click on the blue link and then find out that there's a gazillion trackers that are going to kick your ass there, but actually show you up front, because that's the kind of knowledge that they're bringing together with the Web X-Ray project. So you have a better understanding of what traps lie behind the link, so to say. And the Green Web Foundation is, on a similar note,
12:24
it wants to reward people that do good in terms of carbon offsetting, so when people host a website in a green data center, you can say, well, I'm going to have 16 million results, you're going to show me 10. Why not show me 10 that are hosted green? And then you create an incentive for companies to do the right thing.
12:47
And obviously there's all kinds of cool new technologies on the planet, such as the interplanetary file system, which we're supporting with a search project. The Dot Foundation is trying to get the dot protocol into the private sphere
13:05
so you can host your own dot spaces and building a tool to make those private repositories available too. Sonar is a search engine that will look into those. It's a German project that is looking into those dot spaces,
13:23
so that will be an ideal combination of public and private resources again. And then there's an upcoming browser called Next, and they're trying to create... They're not satisfied with the state of the art in terms of browsers where it's just point and click,
13:40
and all you can do is wait for the thing to do. It should be more programmatic, it should be more programmable, and on top of that, they're going to be able to work with both that IPFS and zero net. And then there's more cool search stuff for private communities, like the transparency toolkit, like Mindive,
14:03
which is a sort of a mixer that allows you to mix search results from other people, basically an overlay network, just before the search engine kicks in. So your queries end up with other people and are relayed without you being able to see them and without them being able to see them,
14:22
and you relay other people's queries, and that way you confuse the AIs and get a privacy-conscious distributed search technology. Open Food Facts is an amazing library of something like 650,000 foods that you can look into,
14:43
and obviously those foods are... All the things that you want to know about allergies, about maybe ethical things or about where they come from, all these things will be combined in a personalized search environment that you can use. And Yasi, which is a well-known peer-to-peer search project
15:02
for a long time, is going to build capacity for people to actually set up an instant search shop, where you can index stuff for people if you don't have the knowledge, including the whole fulfillment, so as to create an army of search providers.
15:20
And then the next app folks, who created previously the Flex Search project, which is quite a well-known project, they're now trying to create a search engine mechanism that doesn't just favor the biggest bookstore from Washington all the time. So they will experiment with new ranking algorithms.
15:44
Applications, we have plenty, too. So, for instance, Silk Server is not a really well-known project just yet, but we think it should be, because it's an open-source conferencing server, just like the ones that people use from the big vendors, but it actually is very much standards-driven,
16:01
so it can use XMPP, it can use SIP, and it can use WebRTC, and it's encrypted. It has in-session uploads. It can do screen-sharing and chat, and in general, it's a cool thing. End-to-end sync is a protocol that starts with the basic premise
16:20
that if you are using a cloud hoster to put your calendar and your address book in, why should they be able to read what you put in? Why can't you just lock the black book before you send it there? And E2Sync is just doing that, and it has applications for all the larger platforms.
16:43
If you're involved with one of the smaller platforms, like Sailfish or else approach us, maybe we'll be able to fund you, too, because we love the smaller platforms, as you'll see. Cryptpad is, after we all started using Etherpad,
17:02
we did realize that that ended up with clear text on the other end, so Cryptpad is doing a wonderful thing where they encrypt all the data client-side and gives you collaborative editing on spreadsheets, on text documents, on polling, on all kinds of things, but the server is blind.
17:22
It cannot see anything. Everything is client-side encrypted. We also have a lot of cool fundamental stuff. So, for instance, VerifPal is made by Nadim Kobaysi. He's in the room, so he's the creator of Noise Explorer,
17:41
and VerifPal is actually the tool that has, I think, the biggest chance of making symbolic verification palatable for normal people, because we all understand that computers are really good at seeing the flaws in our thinking. So, for instance, this is how Nadim uncovered some holes
18:04
in a proton mail and nicely reported them, but this is all of it. If you know anything about this kind of proof, if you read the manual, you'll be able to write this, which is pretty amazing.
18:21
So, Rio is trying to get rid of the socket mechanism that we inherited from the very earliest PSDs, which sucks. You open something, and everything can start using it as soon as they are your user. So, it's not good, and Rio Wolf,
18:42
from actually the Centre of Mathematics, in the mathematics centre in the Netherlands, or CDWI, as it's these days called, I think they introduced Unix in Europe, and now they want to repair that flaw. Opax Sphinx is a project driven very much by Hungarian cryptographers and developers,
19:02
and what they want to do is, we still have passwords, and it's still a neat mechanism, but passwords should never be on the wire, and they are still. So, by implementing both the password store on the device that is so good that you don't have to trust the server
19:22
on the one hand, so you can use a separate password server, and on the other hand, you have protocols that unlock those passwords for you, but they never get stored at the other end. So, you create a system where you have the benefits
19:42
of something simple as passwords without the negatives, and the Android Sphinx project is creating apps for it to go with that. A GNU mess is trying to solve another problem. If you're developing an operating system, you will have to accept that you can't just write code
20:00
and then compile it, because what do you compile it with? You will have to take on something, what they call a binary seed, which is something that has been passed on like a kefir plant from one computer to another, and you don't really know what's inside. So, what GNU mess is trying to do is replace this all
20:22
with a legible scheme-based bootstrapping system, and also reducing with a factor the dependency that we bring in. Robber is developing a robust DHCP server and DNS resolver as a unikernel.
20:43
I think there are also people from Robber in the room, perhaps. And DHCPcanon is trying to implement something called DHCP anonymity profiles, which is a new Internet standard that not a lot of people are using, but it gives you, when your computer enters a network, it gives you just that little bit extra of privacy.
21:06
The ARPA2 project is a cluster of projects, and probably not everybody gets excited about middleware, but if you think about it, middleware is what's running pretty much every company on the planet, and we don't have it at Internet-wide scale.
21:20
So what they're trying to do is actually quite fundamental. For instance, getting Kerberos, which is still in every organization on the planet, is using to make that federatable and to improve the security characteristics, to integrate SASL and Realm Crossover,
21:42
to provide all kinds of filters to LDAP. So you can have other people share bits of LDAP and yet keep some privacy there too. To propagate system settings, so that, for instance, when you don't have to ping, say, Google,
22:03
which websites you don't trust, but you can collectively combine resources yourself. And, of course, to make everything that has a user not have to have a user database, because that is just a stupid way of working.
22:20
And then to have access control that is actually clever and understands that you may want to not give out your real name or your real identity to just anybody else. So you can give out pseudonyms, but still have access control on those. Autocrypt is a mail specification.
22:41
We've had OpenPGP for a long time. It didn't get traction beyond a few million people. We have a few billion people on the Internet, so we need to reinvent the protocol, and that's what Autocrypt is doing. We're funding a number of smaller projects around that to make sure that this specification, which is already supported by many others,
23:02
is getting this critical uptake. Identity-based encryption, and I reveal my attributes, are two projects that are independent, but when they are combined, have a beautiful, synergetic value, because I reveal my attributes is something
23:21
where you can prove to somebody that, for instance, you're 18 years old, or to prove that you're German, or to prove that you have a dog and you paid your license, but nothing else. So you don't have to give your name. You don't have to show your passport that has your photo on it, that has all these other things about you, including biomedical details, but just that single attribute.
23:41
And you can take it out of the context. So this is something you can carry along. You prove it once, and then a year later you can prove it, which is very different from this real world checking that all the background identity management perpetrators are using.
24:00
And identity-based encryption is really cool, because it allows you to encrypt stuff the first time before you meet people. And then there's a secure mechanism for people to resolve this, and this will be combined with this attribute mechanism. So you can say, the person with Passport X, if you would know their passport, can open this email, and nobody else can.
24:22
And the encryption behind that would be automatically taken off by very good cryptographers. We have a few mobile operating systems, small operating systems. We love independent mobile operating systems. So Replicant is trying to get a fully free Android distribution.
24:40
MIMO-Leste is trying to revive the MIMO ecosystem that was the legacy of the Nokia phones and trying to get that user experience into modern phones. The Mega 65, I mean, if you thought that Nokia was sentimental, then the Mega 65 will surely be rocking your world, because that's going back to the Commodore 65.
25:04
And they want to create a... There was actually a talk here by Paul Haggart and Stephen. They want to create a phone that is simple enough for people to actually understand, because nobody can understand these other phones, but they used to be simple, so why can't we just have devices that do those things?
25:23
On the other end of the spectrum, the completely looking forward stuff is mobile Nixos. I don't know if people know the Nixos ecosystem, but Nixos is an amazing next generation package manager. And if they can support it, then you can unlock about 50,000 packages
25:43
that Nixos is supporting on those devices. We have a lot of open hardware projects too. So, for instance, the Nitro Key used to be the crypto stick. It's an open hardware USB key. We have an open hardware laptop, which is going to either base itself on either RISC-V or open power,
26:03
and it wants to be secure, fast, inexpensive, open, robust, upgradable, and sustainable, and not compromise on any of that. We have the BeTrusted device. There was a talk about this from Bunny at the conference, so you've seen that. We have a project that's trying to get a system on chip.
26:22
So basically, just like the Raspberry Pi is a system on chip, you want to have something that gets RISC-V or open power, actually, that is fully, completely open, including the GPU, including everything.
26:44
Wishbone is a specification inside those devices, inside the system on chip. You need that kind of a system, but there's only proprietary systems. They may be free to use, but you can't change them. You can't modify them or actually look very well at the security characteristics.
27:04
So we have a project that is trying to add streaming to the Wishbone specification. We have a project that wants to develop ASIC production flows, so really make it possible for normal people that are not willing to send three levels of NDAs
27:21
to produce a bit of hardware that they design themselves. And I guess another project very much in the same vein is called LibreSilicon. We have a number of projects from that community. Many of them are actually linked to Germany, but it's a global effort to make fully custom design, period,
27:45
and to own all the whole stack, because if you design a chipset now, what you do is you go to a vendor, and that vendor will tell you, just give me the recipe. I'll put in my own stuff. So you can say tomato soup,
28:00
and it will give you tomato soup, but you don't know what they put in, in terms of silicon then, including a standard cell library, including a place or a router, and just to not be caught on a single project, the Core Elite 2 project, we're also funding them.
28:21
They have an alternative, if you feel as I, back-end tool, and they can also do placing and routing, and we don't want to be stuck with a single tool. Instead, we want to have multiple good tools, each do new things. And to come back to the pillars that I previously sketched for the next generation, and I said we were going for resilience,
28:41
trustworthiness, and sustainability, and when we wrote that, we actually said, in the efficient technologies embedded in concrete, circling in space, and is increasingly entering the intimacy of our human bodies. Little did we know that somebody would propose to actually make a pacemaker, or find somebody crazy enough to actually, a patient that needs it,
29:01
to actually consider putting that in their body. But if you've seen the talk from Ross Anderson, there have been hundreds of pacemakers recalled because of leaky networking capabilities. So it's certainly not a trivial thing to do, but it's really cool, and it shows the importance of, well, getting this whole mechanism right,
29:21
because you can't have those risks. If you put something in somebody's heart, and you have to rip it out and replace it with something, that's not a free, like, throw away my phone, because it's broken. No, you can't do that. It requires heavy operation. It could kill people. So we have a lot more projects. I mean, this is just the tip of the iceberg.
29:40
That's why it's called a treasure trove. You can find all of them online. We have them at these websites. And if you see those two logos anywhere, that's, well, we hope that people recognize that as a hallmark of quality. Nothing would, they don't need to know our names just to have the association,
30:01
ah, shit, interesting, should look at that. Well, my time is almost running out, so I want to give a big thanks to the European Commission, especially to the DG Connect that gave us this money to do this. Without their support, we might not even exist at this point.
30:20
And the thing to remember is all these projects need help. They're not a done deal. This is not a product that we can give. We don't have the money to fund all these projects to the level that they need, so it needs uptake. So fixing the Internet is a huge collaborative thing,
30:41
and we need all your brains because the brains are the critical thing here. To quote Dijkstra again, the art of programming is the art of organizing complexity, and there's a lot of complexity to deal with because you have so many dependencies and so many layers of the system. As you've seen, we try to bring together these things and make them work together,
31:02
and that's the kind of a value add that we try to give as a funding agency. But we need your brains, and there's so much work to be done on all layers. If you're a legal person or if you're a usability expert or a designer, you've seen some of the logos.
31:20
They're ghastly. Some people don't have logos. Some people don't have any idea how to organize a community. So if you want to do something cool, and basically there are so many opportunities on so many different layers. You can do internships if you're a student or unemployed,
31:41
but there's also very senior tasks that people have lying about for which they don't have the capacity to do because they might be working for a nuclear agency and have a good idea. So it's not like they can then quit their jobs and tell their family, I'm going to do this full-time. So people can sometimes take money
32:00
and look for other people to work with them. So if you have an interest in one of the projects that I showed or one of the projects on the website, please look at them. And perhaps, well, maybe next year you will be here on the stage. And the last thing I want to say is if you have a great idea, if you know somebody else that has a cool project, we still have money for the next year.
32:20
Have a look at your open calls. Go to this address. And I mean, the moniker is that we want to reinvent the Internet because we believe that there's only so much time before it fossilizes, and it is so stuck in everything that is ossified. So if you don't change it now, we will be stuck with it perhaps for a thousand years.
32:42
And it's sad, but for instance, with the phone system, we got stuck with something for 150 years almost. So it's the amount of devices that we're putting out and the amount of technology that we're depending on stuff makes it more difficult to switch. So if you don't switch it now,
33:01
there's no way we can repair it later on. And well, the final quote from Edsger Dijkstra, the tools that we use have a profound and devious influence on our thinking habits and therefore our thinking abilities. The way currently the Internet works is bad. It's broken by design. And I mean, there have been many talks about this,
33:20
but we need to do something. And we try to bring together so many efforts. We're not alone. There are other people inside the Next Generation Internet Initiative that are doing stuff as well. They have different methods. They have different looks and feels, so you can check them out. In particular, before January 4th,
33:41
you can help the folks at DOBSI, their marketing agency, and other agencies that aren't that first in understanding what needs to happen. And they're asking, literally, can you help us to tell who we should be giving money to? What kind of things we should prioritize? If you have time, please look at that URI
34:01
and fill out that thing. And now it's time for questions. Okay, questions. There are three microphones, but I see the signal angel already has two questions from the Internet.
34:25
Let's take the first Internet question. It should be on, okay. The first question from the Internet is, how to make the public mass transport adopt those great projects,
34:41
and how well did you in the past? So, in the past, we were kind of content that we were funding all these amazing projects, and we were trying to get them to scale technically. For now, we've actually changed our ways slightly,
35:01
and so one of the things that we do is we try to package everything inside at least one operating system called Nix Packages, or inside one packaging system. We help people with accessibility. Every project that we fund is getting vetted for accessibility and will be officially certified as that. And that removes the number of blockers
35:22
in terms of practical adoption, for instance, by governments, because they're not allowed to use technologies that aren't accessible. We help people build up communities, so we have special community folks that are good at community building. So, for us, the abundance of funding
35:42
that we had for the short period of this project is actually we're trying to make the very, very most of that, and, well, it's not been tried like that before, so we like to give it a try. And also, of course, very much talking to the people that need to adopt it, so if you develop something that is changing the routing of the Internet,
36:04
then you need to talk to the people that run the Internet, so the technical operational community. So we're very much, we have people that help with standardization, really, really good people that know how to pass the mustard around, so to say.
36:20
And, yeah, if people have any advice on how to do any better, we'd love to know. So my e-mail address is mihielit in lnet.nl. Just send me a mail if you think we're doing something stupid or you think we're not doing anything that we should be doing. By all means, contact us, because we're there to make it actually work.
36:42
Does that answer the question, Internet? No feedback so far, but I hope so. Well, there are no questions in the room yet, so we'll take the next one from the Internet. Oh, there's one over there, sorry. Hello there. Are you able to talk about the size of the grant that was allocated to NLNet
37:04
in order to talk about this on the average grant size? So the average sum is something like 36,000-37,000 euros. The total sum is 11.2 million euros for three years. That's for both projects combined, so each of them 5.6 million euros.
37:21
So we currently have 150 programs running, so you can do the math and see that we still have money left. But a year from now, that might be very different, and then you'll have to talk completely different shop, because the way we do this is not common. We're quite proud that we think we kind of hacked the system into making it a very easy application procedure.
37:41
You should be able to write this in half an hour. If your ideas are clear in your mind, then we don't ask a lot of information. That's exactly what we're trying to solve, is to make it lightweight for the people that apply. And the amounts can be, I mean, the smallest project we have is 1,400 euros.
38:00
The biggest project has now received a second grant and will ultimately end up with something like 170, but it theoretically can go up to 200,000 euros. It can be individuals, it can be organizations, it can be a monastery, it can be a government, it can be anything. We don't care, as long as you make something. And we pay you when you make it, and not before.
38:23
Thank you. And now the second question from the Internet. Second question from the Internet is, are there any existing projects that you wish would join your initiative, but haven't so far?
38:42
That's a good question. Well, I recently reached out to a number of the smaller operating systems, such as Sailfish and Minix, and I believe that they have some unique properties and we want to support their work,
39:00
but so far not a lot of people from that community are, I guess they're not used to being able to get money for the work that they do. But, yeah, in general, the independent mobile operating systems, that's a thing that we're very interested to see improve.
39:22
But, yeah, we are quite forward. As soon as we see something, we also ping people, and then one of the biggest ways in which we get projects incoming is that people know good people. So people read about us, they see the little logo a few times,
39:43
and they think somebody might be crazy enough to fund my project, or they might be crazy enough to fund my friend's project. We don't have any marketing budget, so it's really word of mouth. But in general, when we see stuff, people are quite willing to push new projects to us,
40:01
because, well, like I explained, it's quite clear there's no spooks behind us. It's all full in the clear, public benefit organization. So, essentially, we don't have a threat. We just give you money for the good of society, so to say. So I'm not answering the question, unfortunately.
40:22
Thank you, Michael, for your talk and for the questions. Unfortunately, we're done out of time. I'm sure you can reach him on the Congress, if he's still sticking around, and discuss the topics further. And if you have to leave now, please leave in that direction.
40:42
But first, give him some warm applause.