Switching Open Source Communities: How to Stay Authentic to Yourself and Find Hidden Benefit In Your New Role
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00:00
Open sourceData managementObservational studyEvent horizonDigitizingFinitary relationSoftwareData managementDatabaseStack (abstract data type)MereologyData structureProduct (business)Multiplication signPrisoner's dilemmaOnlinecommunityTheory of relativityCASE <Informatik>Data managementProcess (computing)Type theoryProduct (business)Open sourceData conversionData structureDatabaseContext awarenessSoftware developerObservational studyLatent heatGroup actionData managementSoftwareMereologyTerm (mathematics)Key (cryptography)Connected spaceFocus (optics)NumberHand fanStress (mechanics)Physical system3 (number)Relational databaseService (economics)Point (geometry)MiniDiscFreewareNeuroinformatikECosDocument management systemRoutingDirektes ProduktWorkstation <Musikinstrument>State of matterComplementarityReflection (mathematics)Different (Kate Ryan album)Rule of inferenceRight angleUniverse (mathematics)Boss CorporationDirection (geometry)Image resolutionLevel (video gaming)Computer animation
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Open sourceProcess (computing)Product (business)Open sourceInternetworkingEndliche ModelltheorieNegative numberSlide ruleProcess (computing)Product (business)Multiplication signRight angleSoftware bugECosContent (media)Different (Kate Ryan album)Execution unitUsabilitySineExtension (kinesiology)Physical systemComputer animation
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Open sourceLocal GroupSoftware testingBeat (acoustics)Process (computing)InformationGroup actionSearch engine (computing)Flow separationTerm (mathematics)Data managementSolid geometryOpen sourceProcess (computing)Expert systemDifferent (Kate Ryan album)Multiplication signPoint (geometry)BlogShared memoryKey (cryptography)RoboticsMathematical optimizationPhysical systemBlock (periodic table)DampingMeasurementData managementComputer animation
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LogicConsistencyBuildingData managementBuildingConsistencyData managementSpacetimeInheritance (object-oriented programming)Radical (chemistry)Expert systemVirtual machineLogicElectric generatorDifferent (Kate Ryan album)Expected valueTheory of relativityRepresentation (politics)CASE <Informatik>Process (computing)Selectivity (electronic)Dependent and independent variablesRoutingBasis <Mathematik>Digital photographyAuditory maskingWordSound effectRule of inferenceRow (database)Multiplication signHeat transferArithmetic progressionMoving averageShared memoryComputer animation
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Open sourcePresentation of a groupBlogView (database)Time zoneDatabaseHuman migrationPhysical systemPersonal digital assistantIntegrated development environmentGoodness of fitBlogView (database)Physical systemEvent horizonInformationGroup actionEnterprise architectureWorkloadBenchmarkHuman migrationDatabaseProduct (business)Integrated development environmentCASE <Informatik>StatisticsDatabase transactionData managementLabour Party (Malta)Presentation of a groupMultiplication signOpen sourceAdditionTwitterOnline helpData conversionDifferent (Kate Ryan album)Expert systemField (computer science)Content (media)MereologyFocus (optics)Interactive televisionLevel (video gaming)Basis <Mathematik>Boss CorporationStudent's t-testPhysical lawMetropolitan area networkPlanningShared memoryWage labourSystem callDirection (geometry)Computer animation
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DatabaseInformationPersonal digital assistantInformationProjective planeShared memoryOnline helpTime zoneDatabaseLevel (video gaming)Data conversionStrategy gameMetropolitan area networkAuthorizationPower (physics)CASE <Informatik>Perturbation theoryTwitterDesign by contractMultiplicationOrientation (vector space)ECosPhysical systemDemosceneBoss CorporationComputer animation
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Function (mathematics)Process (computing)Database transactionTable (information)Router (computing)Software developerMachine visionStandard deviationFeedbackData modelHill differential equationSimulationTaylor seriesData integrityInformationFaktorenanalyseIdentity managementIntegrated development environmentTouch typingIdentity managementSpacetimeInternet forumGroup actionProduct (business)Latent heatInformationProcess (computing)Operations researchMultiplicationShared memoryContext awarenessMereologyPower (physics)Table (information)Database transactionEndliche ModelltheorieFunctional (mathematics)Machine visionData managementSoftware developerMultiplication signDifferent (Kate Ryan album)ResultantData conversionKey (cryptography)Analytic continuationInteractive televisionComplementarityOpen sourceCuboidPosition operatorAxiom of choiceProjective planeChemical equationElectronic program guideIntegrated development environmentPhysical systemDivisorINTEGRALMathematical optimizationSubgroupTransformation (genetics)Negative numberSolid geometryExpert systemPartial derivativePresentation of a groupType theoryCASE <Informatik>CollaborationismOnline helpGraph coloringLevel (video gaming)Direction (geometry)Arithmetic meanAnnihilator (ring theory)WordBit rateState of matterDemo (music)Workstation <Musikinstrument>Identical particlesPermanentDialectComputer animation
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Element (mathematics)Computer animation
Transcript: English(auto-generated)
00:05
Hello to everyone at FOSTA. We are in the virtual community in the room this time. Sorry, we are not in person, but let's keep it warm and supportive for everyone. Anyway, today we'll be discussing switching open source communities while staying authentic to yourself. And this is a very important conversation to
00:27
start in the new reality. Everyone is switching careers and therefore communities too. Let me first introduce the speakers. This is myself, Anastasia, or just Stacey Respatina.
00:41
I work at Postgres Professional as a Senior Community Manager, mostly focusing on driving awareness via events, community relations and developer relations activities. I also do some education, PR advocacy and so on. My co-speaker Martina Pocchiari is a researcher in the School of Management of the Erasmus University.
01:07
She studies brand communities and how they are affected by different factors. Martina will provide some scientific grounds for the techniques that I'll be sharing today. I think this is something of interest because not many researchers these days are focusing on community management.
01:27
Let's first do some housekeeping notes and discuss the talk structure. We'll have two parts. Part one will be mostly about industry experience and the techniques that I have found helpful for myself while switching
01:45
different communities. Part two will contain some academic evidence provided by Martina. We expect that it will be of interest to everyone involved in advocacy, including their brand owners and company C-levels.
02:00
I would especially recommend Martina's part because it is about some solid scientific data. My part will be mostly about practical techniques and use cases from the real world. And of course, we expect and encourage community managers to listen to what we have found and to participate in the discussion.
02:23
We want both technical and non-technical guys to ask us questions and share the experience. Feel free to share your thoughts with us. We will appreciate any kind of advice or remarks and criticism, of course.
02:40
Let's talk about the types of transitions. Many community managers might be surviving these days since we are at FOSTA, which is focusing on open source as an industry. We'll mostly speak about the specifics of such transitions in the open source communities. First type of
03:03
transition is about staying in the ecosystem while going to the micro community of a competing solution. This is still a very comfortable transition, so to say. You're able to leverage what you have in terms of knowledge,
03:21
key players and many connections that you have been networking with for years in your past job. This is good. Of course, you will have to promote a different product, but still the community itself remains the same. Another case of transition is about
03:41
coming to a complementary solution of the main flagship product. So when you are coming to a vendor delivering this complementary solution, you are also still in the same ecosystem. Of course, this complementary solution will have its micro community of fans and supporters, but still you can go back and forth in the same fund of your familiar ecosystem,
04:05
which is not so stressful. Let's focus on cases number three and number four, which are a major headache for many people switching jobs. First, let's talk about case number three. This is about transition to a different ecosystem formed around a different flagship product.
04:25
What is it like? It's probably about the product competing for adoption with your previous product. This is exactly my situation because I was coming from the MySQL community to a PostgreSQL community.
04:41
These are those two relational database management systems competing for adoption, but the process for both products is very different. Let's focus on it later. But this is like coming to a different world and another case is coming to an unrelated community. For example, you can be
05:04
coming from the database world to a world of software as a service application, which seems to be unrelated, but in fact you will still find some common points. Anyway, I have prepared some nice jokes here. You feel an alien in both cases, number three and number four.
05:28
You have a very strange status there. Not just a newbie, you are an alien to these two types of communities. Let's discuss the key challenges that make you such an alien. First, it's the lack of knowledge
05:42
and the lack of sources of knowledge. This might sound strange because we all have the internet to help us, but the internet is an ocean of content, which is not always good. So you need some time and the right people to find the right sources of knowledge to educate yourself.
06:01
And another thing is differences in processes. You need to get to know how product releases are done. You need to understand how people can report a bug or request a feature and you need to figure out a lot of things because you are supposed to provide advice on all
06:20
these processes. Another challenge is that the key players of the new ecosystem are unfamiliar to you. You know nothing and you cannot understand how powerful this or that person is in the community. The last key challenge is that you have zero trust or negative trust if you are coming from a competing ecosystem. You are an alien,
06:45
as you can remember from the previous slide. But you need to convert yourself into an agent model who is a person of high trust. Someone has extensive knowledge about the ecosystem and we'll talk about how this can be done.
07:01
First of all, you need to somehow cope with the lack of knowledge and differences in processes. My advice is to be open about where you work now because this will help you to first connect with the most proactive people. Those who are most willing to help you probably provide some initial understanding of the ecosystem in general. So be open about it.
07:25
Not just mentioning it one, probably it is a good idea to mention this several times that you have arrived in the ecosystem and you would encourage everyone to guide you through the way you have just started. Another recommendation is to find a master Yoda for yourself.
07:45
I mean that you need to find a mentor or several mentors who could guide you through the ecosystem in the very beginning. I like the term of solid and empty resources offered by Vladimir Tarasov, who's a business and management trainer.
08:02
The idea is that you need to see who is reliable and who is not reliable, who is willing to help you educate yourself and who is not willing to educate yourself. You need to get to know people and see how much they can help you or just do not disturb those who are not ready to communicate with you at this point. If you manage to
08:24
find a group of people which is supportive and can help you gain up the speed faster, this is a great starting point for your journey. So first you need to ask your group of experts and mentors about the reliable sources of knowledge.
08:43
As I have already mentioned, it might be tricky because some great sources have a poor CEO score because not everyone in tech is caring about search engine optimization, but these blogs and people who are writing them might be really, really
09:02
interesting to you as a starter. My advice is to ask for advice. Let's put it like this. After you gain some knowledge and have at least a general understanding, you can start testing your ideas with your solid group of experts. If you have someone to help you not to sound stupid as a newbie,
09:24
it is already a big deal because this is what all people in charge of community management are facing. This is a very common problem. Another thing is about being active in the new community. Once you gain some knowledge and get connected to some people,
09:41
you are no longer the starter from scratch. You already have some grounds and some valuable information to share. You can start with minor things, sharing what you can and asking your group of experts for advice on how to help this or that person, which is
10:02
really a good start because you at least know who is responsible for what, which I strongly recommend you to know within your first week in a new community. When you have a group of mentors, you can go to the next stage and start communicating with the key players because your mentors can make the right
10:24
introductions for you when you need those introductions. Because there are communities where not all expertise is concentrated within one company. Most communities have multiple companies interested in the same product and most experts are scattered within this space, not
10:44
not just being your colleagues, but sometimes they are even your competitors, but still they are respected and you will of course need to know them and need to communicate with them, especially if you are dealing with conferences and joint activities. To gain trust among the key players, you need to
11:06
bring something to the table and this is where you need your well-tested ideas and you shouldn't be afraid of the slight changes or minor ideas on improvement because they tend to pile up and
11:23
you start very small and you start with the minor contributions, gaining something step by step. Nothing big can happen at once. Another point is doing your advocacy job the right way because this is something especially appreciated by technical contributors. They mostly focus on the technical part
11:47
but they not always have time to spread the word about what they are doing and if you do this for them, this is generally super appreciated because people tend to be grateful for
12:04
becoming more famous, so to say. If you are doing your job and performing your function, you of course will gain respect. My favorite advice is about being your best self beyond technology. I faced this multiple times because people cannot talk about work all the time.
12:25
They are still attracted by magnificent personalities and they prefer communicating with not just a job function. They also want someone who could help them relax. After a hard working day, you're talking about
12:41
non-work related things and this is fine because this is how new ideas come to our minds as well. So we can communicate about non-work related things and then come up with a good idea. I'm sharing some memes so strongly focused on futuristic movies and space and I can confess that I'm authoring
13:04
space operas and poetry and this is why I can talk literature, not just community manager management stuff and this is fine. Building trust is a big topic and actually this is what we all should focus on because the status of a trusted advisor
13:23
is very much like the status of terminator. You look awkward at the very start. You will make mistakes at the very start but when you become a reliable machine of community management, you gain respect. Of course,
13:43
mistakes are unavoidable. These are some techniques that worked for me as generators of mistakes made by other community management people. First, I think that no one should pretend to be anyone that they are not.
14:05
This doesn't happen often, but I know that some public people prefer to exaggerate their role in the company and in the community in general. My advice is to avoid this because I had a sales representative who tried to act
14:22
on behalf of every company which was closing an attractive deal and we generally should stick to our actual job title and the selection of responsibilities. The related thing is about being helpful while staying transparent about where you can help. If you are not
14:43
in a technical role, speak about it openly. If you are not a senior specialist, speak about it openly as well. Being a minor person is not an issue. This is actually an opportunity to learn and grow and this is also about setting the expectations. Starting small is great
15:05
because you can top the expectations you have set in the very beginning, but if you are trying to pretend to be a super expert in everything, you will face the issue of over-promising sooner or later. My advice is to
15:23
start small and start modest and then see what else can be achieved. Another thing is not hiding or denying the fact of working for a competitor in the past. Of course people will be a bit suspicious about it at the start and probably they even make
15:42
some jokes about it at the start, but the fact that you go open about it will attract them much more than your shyness regarding this fact of your biography. It was real and you are no longer there. You started to learn something new and you
16:01
will not be perceived like the wrong person for the community if you will take this fact easy and practice some self-hiring like I was working for X community and now I'm starting to learn the Z community, for example. If you take this easy, your colleagues and everyone in the
16:21
community will take it easy as well. Another thing is about logic. People in Tehran like those who sound sane and act sane. If you are offering logical things and stay consistent in supporting their relationships with people, they will appreciate it. If they see that you propose
16:43
something which is right for them beyond companies and differences, they will respect you. My other advice is to find and offer win-win solutions where possible and focus on what we have in common, not the differences. And here is the first interesting case about the joint talk of
17:04
PostgreSQL and MySQL guys which I was working I think four years ago. Back then I was a part of MySQL community, but this is something that is still in high demand and popular and honestly we are going to repeat this experience. The idea of this talk was like switching to
17:23
a super system. We were focusing on what we have in common. We were talking with both parties and agreed to do some general advocacy for the open source world and we were seeing this talk as an opportunity to prove that open source database solutions are good for enterprise
17:43
workloads. This is why we gathered two teams of PostgreSQL and MySQL database developers and delivered a joint talk providing some good benchmarks with modern workloads. This kept a lot of people excited about open source. We had around 100 people present
18:06
at this live presentation. You know that it was still the time of offline events and we also had a couple of blog posts shared around in the two communities and we had around 20,000 views on this blog post in the first three days which is amazing and we also
18:26
had decent publication as a follow-up to our blog post. I also have run into the discussion of database-to-database migrations related to this blog post. So it did something, it triggered something. There was a very positive buzz in the open source communities. Of course there were
18:45
some Hollywoods too but in general it was good because if people are talking about open source this helps to make it more popular. Another interesting case is about the educational opportunities. As you probably know that multi-database environments are trendy these days.
19:05
People tend to use various solutions where they feed best and for example they might use one database for statistics and another database for transactions. To get more opportunities on the labour market DBAs tend to master new database management systems. Of course in addition to this
19:28
trend for multi-database environments there are still database-to-database migrations so when the company management decides on switching to a different database management system their
19:40
technical team just has to adopt it and educate themselves on what this new solution is like. This creates an interesting issue like lack of education in the community and people need to have a trusted advisor who can share some knowledge related to the new solution
20:02
and some people might be even experts in the competing field and when they face such an issue they have a problem about asking for help in public because they are known experts of one database management system and for them it's not always appropriate to explain that they
20:26
need help with another database management system this time. So this is where private conversations become more powerful and they and such people can ask for help and very often
20:42
they need some basic knowledge which is easy to digest and put together by a group of experts. I would recommend every content group in the open source world to create this small piece of information intended specifically for newbies because if you want your community to grow
21:04
you shouldn't focus on just expert level knowledge you should also distribute the newbie level knowledge because this is how you can attract the beginners and educate more people about your product. Another important thing is not trying to persuade people to use your product
21:24
at this very beginning stage because generally they need help and they would appreciate some help not advocacy and this is why I think we should be happy with the first interaction which is about trusted advice not just something for gain. The third case I want to mention
21:47
is hearing back from the past community. You can leverage those comebacks of the people from your past in multiple ways but this will only happen if you are not focusing on the linear
22:01
approach to a community. Linear approach is something sales oriented and that non-linear approach is something that goes beyond sales. This is something which is about strategy so to say emotional seed investment. If you were good to your past community it will be very
22:23
likely to share important information with you. For example you can see some advice on whom to contact. I'm seeing this and that companies are not seeking our help because we represent a different vendor and they don't want to migrate to a different database so this might be an
22:41
opportunity for you. Everyone is dreaming about such cases and I would say that they happen more often than you can imagine given that you were good to people in the past. Another thing is about finding the most active people who contribute to multiple databases. Of course they are unique but you can leverage this knowledge and invite these key players
23:07
almost always having high authority in the community to various joint projects and as I have already told you the power of joint projects is great. If a joint project is done
23:21
the right way you can double the audience and engage with twice and just double your audience. When you support relationships with people from multiple ecosystems you can gain a broader knowledge on what's hot in the industry. People coming from different communities
23:41
might share with you important news from competitors and general industry trends which is great because when you are focusing on just your own community you kind of see that high level picture and such conversations will help you define the better strategy for the future.
24:02
Of course here I need to mention a very important issue. This is why I have put this man with scare me the frog here. You should also mind your NDA and respect the NDA of your conversation partners because we all have contracts and employers when we have to communicate with
24:25
people from other ecosystems we should be very mindful of what to share and what not to share with them but still there is a very broad zone on this borderline where you can communicate
24:40
and help each other and discuss joint projects without breaching anything on your contract or a non-disclosure agreement. Let's go to the general advice and key takeaways from this talk. Of course when you focus on the gain only interaction you cannot achieve as much as those who put people first because when you are just focusing
25:06
on sales and put this straightforwardly most people will remain reserved and you will not be able to gain trust. You should think out of the box and invent multiple ways to help people
25:21
around you. This will pay off this time. Of course probably it will not happen in the first half a year even but with time you will be able to gain fantastic results. Another thing is about contributing on your own and I would say we shouldn't underestimate non-code contribution
25:44
because it is not enough to create wonderful product you should also create the right evangelism for it and to form the right community around it. If you don't do this job if you don't contribute you are not performing your job function the right way
26:00
but if you go beyond this and not just interact with people from the community and don't just engage with people but also share something and bring something to the table they will also be willing to share what you even even things you don't expect from them. Another thing is about not pretending to be bigger than you are. You are here to listen to people not to always
26:26
tell them what to do. I would say practicing self irony and healthy humor would help a lot in gaining new supporters in the new community. Of course when you are not just a function of a
26:40
community manager but an attractive personality you can gain more because people want to share what they have beyond work with you and if you have enough heart and soul resources to accept this gift of someone else sharing deep emotions with you you can gain much more than those who are
27:03
just performing their job function and speak only about work. This is a small part of the conversation but sometimes it's very important to encourage people to move on and create better product. Here I need to ask Martina to take the virtual stage and continue with her part
27:24
because this is probably the most interesting one providing the scientific grounds for what I have mentioned and kudos to Martina who created great research specifically for this presentation.
27:41
Thank you Stacey for a great first part of this presentation and thank you everyone for joining us today. I would like to complement Stacey's practical experience with some of the evidence available from organizational science, management science and information science. Stacey has presented four great challenges that community managers face when they switch to
28:01
a new OSS community. The available scientific evidence can help us to tackle particularly two of these challenges. The differences in processes that community managers experience when they switch to a new OSS community and the fact that as a newcomer you start with virtually zero trust or even negative trust. With respect to the first challenge the available scientific evidence
28:22
recommends you to evaluate whether you can hold a leadership position in your new community. If you indeed hold a leadership position in your new community then you can choose and balance between two leadership styles the transformational leader or the transactional leader and the choice about the balance between these two leadership styles has to depend on who your community
28:43
members are and what are their motivations to contribute. A transformational leader shapes contributors behavior while a transactional leader guides contributors behavior. Transformational leaders are able to become role models for their community members thanks to their high ethical behavior. They can also articulate a vision that then inspires the rest
29:02
of the community members. They can promote new ways of solving problems and challenge the traditional assumptions. Finally they can provide individualized attention to the developers their needs and their motivations. On the other hand transactional leaders are on the lookout for possible sources of mistakes or problems and they can adopt a passive or an active approach
29:21
towards these problematic situations. Passive transactional leaders wait for problems to arise to tackle them. Active transactional leaders try to anticipate sources of problems or problematic behavior and put systems in place to avoid them. There is no optimal leadership style and the reason is that each community member or each subgroup in the community reacts differently to
29:42
different leadership styles. From scientific literature we know that transformational leaders are able to influence community members that are intrinsically motivated to contribute to the community. Members who are intrinsically motivated are motivated by feelings of altruism, helping others and becoming experts in the development process. On the other hand community members who
30:01
are extrinsically motivated are continuously seeking rewards or punishment for desirable or undesirable behavior. So as you can see the leadership style has to adapt to the kind of members that you're facing in your community. When we think about switching to a new OSS community now we can see that adopting at least partially a transformational leadership can help you frame your expertise as bringing and promoting new ways of thinking and solving
30:25
problems and challenging the traditional ways. There is evidence in the scientific literature that adopting a transformational leadership and in particular challenging the old assumptions and bringing new ways to solving problems can in fact increase the intrinsic motivations of community members who are used to being intrinsically motivated and in turn this
30:43
increase in intrinsic motivation also increases the contribution to the OSS project. So adopting at least partial traits of transformational leadership as a newcomer in an OSS community can in fact increase the value that is generated in the OSS project through the developer's motivation. So a newcomer can leverage intellectual stimulation to increase collective motivation
31:04
and value. The second challenge that Stacey has introduced before is the fact that as a newcomer you start with zero trust or even negative trust by other community members, other colleagues or your team. There is a solid amount of scientific evidence that speaks about the value of generating and cultivating trust in OSS communities. Scientifically trust is defined
31:23
as a belief in the honesty, integrity and reliability of the other people around you and even more specifically scientific literature distinguishes between three types of trust. Diadic trust is the one that you develop between yourself and another person. Group trust is what somebody develops towards a collective or a group such as in the case of an OSS project. And
31:44
finally generalized trust is an individual personality trait but this trait is greatly influenced by the amount of dyadic and group trust that somebody develops in a collective. Why should we care at all about developing trust when we enter a new community? There is widespread consensus in the scientific literature that trust is one of the most crucial social
32:03
factors that can affect the success of personal and working collaborations. Increasing trust in communities can also lead to higher team satisfaction in work relationships, higher quality of team performance, less negative content shared within the community and overall a higher sense of safety in participating into the community and also
32:21
a higher exchange of information. This also speaks to another challenge that Stacey has mentioned that is the initial lack of knowledge about the technicalities of the product. So developing trust in yourself and in the community can also help with providing more of the knowledge that you need. So the natural next question is how can we increase trust in yourselves and in the collective when you join a new OSS community? Fortunately the existing evidence
32:44
in academic literature gives us a clear roadmap towards increasing trust as a new community player. The first way to promote trust in your new community is by crafting or reinforcing a clear identity for the community. If the community is lacking a clear identity then it's a good idea to start crafting the identity together with the group members by underlining
33:03
the clear purpose of the group and of the collective efforts and creating and reinforcing this community identity over time. A second way to promote trust in your new community is to create multiple opportunities for learning. It is a good idea to design or support specific spaces that are dedicated to informal social learning and workplace learning. This means
33:22
dedicating space to both getting to know the members and creating spaces to share the knowledge that is specific to the product that is being developed. A third way is having credible and active moderation. Moderation is fundamental to ensure that a feeling of trust is established in the community. Having credible and active moderation helps also in the knowledge sharing
33:41
that is so important as an newcomer. And finally there has to be a model for the enforcement of appropriate behavior. Inappropriate behavior has to be stopped immediately and cannot be tolerated if you want to establish and increase trust in yourself as a community leader or as a community player. To conclude, you can see here the main takeaways from Stacey's part. And I can
34:02
add from my academic experience that it is important to leverage your diverse skill set as a new community player and be aware of the possibility to use transformational and transactional leadership at your advantage. Finally, it is important to invest and believe in the power of trust to ensure a better technical performance and a better collective
34:20
environment. These are all the works that Stacey and I have referenced throughout the presentation. Feel free to consult any of them and feel free to ask us if you need any guidance. Finally, don't forget to stay in touch. These are our contacts if you have further questions or if you want to discuss any of these issues more in depth. Thank you so much for listening and I'm looking forward to the Q&A session.