Panel: Launching a Software Business

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Panel: Launching a Software Business
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Are you tired of building someone else’s product? Are you tired of building yet another business application? Are you itching to build something amazing? Join our panel conversation and Q&A with real developers who’ve started and built software businesses. Let’s talk about the failures and successes, the fears and arrogance in starting a business. Bring your questions and let’s startup. Panel: Eric Brandes, CoFounder TrackJS. Todd Gardner, CoFounder TrackJS. Ben Hall, Founder KataCoda, Rob Conery, CoFounder of Tekpub. Oren Eini, CEO at Hibernating Rhinos.
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the. right now. they were going to get started. google more panel member coming but he should be year out very shortly he may just arrive after the beginning so welcome everybody the morning and thank you for coming today i hope everyone had find that the party last night but maybe not so much fun my name is eric brand this and i am a co-founder of java script air monitoring company culture. actually yes it's a day rather than talking about a lot of the sessions hear all about a specific to or technology or framework around and talk about that for this session what i want to talk about is the business of software that is taking all those technical skills that you all have and turning them into something produce a product or service that you. can sell entrepreneurship right now is a really hot topic and so the news media the financial press everybody's talking about start ups talking about started accelerators y. combinator talking about unicorns venture capital funding things like that all those are all great topics what i want to talk about today actually as i want to dig in a little bit and here. from people that have actually started software businesses and and hear their experience and so to that and we've got for exceptional people will free except for people in tide who had to come because michael founder to come talk to us and share what they know about starting software business on to the last thing before we get started i was told. norwegians are not always keen to participate live during presentations but i'd love to get your questions i'd love to know what what you want to know that and if you look up at the slide i discovered that panel questions dot com was actually still available so i bought it and if you go there. there is a glorified text box with a summit but and where you too can submit questions and i'll be checking that throughout this discussion and so if you if you're going you want to ask you know just put in there and hopefully i can work it into the discussion so if you know if you want to have son seif have the knee a sequel injured she said because. and so i thought about that high don't think about that and so i was going to add a disclaimer that says. please don't go for try to hunt on the website and so maybe after the sixty minutes then you can hack it do whatever you want to avoid a check for civil injunction i think there's a famous words ok so does so without further ado let's get started i was so kind of is a question zero for all of the panel members obviously we've got your pictures of. here big but may be on each of you guys could introduce yourself give a little bit of background what is your business may be that more than one business and then what did you get the idea in what was the founding story so let's start of the very end and let's go if you can fool some of my name is ben hogan i'm the found of cats coda when an interactive limp. that form for software developers so we want to teach docket keeping it is not to the cool infrastructure topics in the browser without you having to download all configure anything you can just get started and start learning and stop playing in experimenting as i started this because infrastructure is high. out and did not know of good ways of learning how to do it properly and it's great haven't that machine on your local laptop the how to replicate network problems and how to do across a cluster of a thousand olds properly and see how you applications respond and how to cold for their estate firm weird and wonderful edge cases. and so that's what we're trying to teach and thousand that's why i'm passionate about what we're doing an awesome grab and i'm a country founded to say how tech pub dot com and i'm it was a quiet by plebiscite video training company and subject and now i'm actually starting anyone the right and see a tech pub. the technique is all about them. learning through videos in fact we did one eye and didn't several with and. and at the time that it was founded which is in two thousand and nine there was a solution like that forgotten and developers so i thought in the footsteps of a company called people dodos i learned a lot from his mistakes. and yet that's pretty much needed awesome so when it is only me most was the end. the cold so the company's called have been eighty nine as the things we do we deal with data one third of the things that we do these we have a tool that sits between in all in your publication a he was a traffic between them a and tell you when you're being stupid you could go to a store fail you're making a quota mean. sex or sort of stuff like that aim of to do not fall was realised that the problem was with the actual data be speed used so we built to even be which is a token database a sequel and that's what people really do. i'm tired are now i'm on other co-founders attract us worry javascript are monitoring toll on we have to understand when you're and has run problems on when applications. its bootstraps business when gone for about three years on bill nights and weekends and working other jobs along the way in a very very long hours and terrible mistakes that were getting excited for with a yellow book hubert's a scenic. well it's the possibilities very funny but which now these guys made mistakes lee is just one. one of the open. so ok so you know a lot of us in this room or developers right and we have kind of one responsibility it's its technology its computers it's we understand that when you make the choice to go from from developer to business founder not take on all sorts of responsibilities that you didn't have before. so maybe what i'd like to know is is kind of how did you guys make the transition what was unexpected about the transition was challenging about the transition and maybe rubble so with you and i think i think for me the biggest part of the transition was becoming a life coach to myself and and believing that i could do it and it was really difficult that was the hardest thing. i decided to do it i remember putting of something i think i showed or him and he said this is crap. is it looks bad it was that everything was bad about it and i just i wouldn't even trying to do this is ridiculous. done and i just kept doing it kept doing it and then we opened up and made money and i couldn't believe it happened and i'm still to this day i have to have to look back in and tell myself that actually was ok so i think that was part of this transition for me ok awesome bend i can relate to. and every week ago and every week have to question might sell a disco contracting like china just get proper job and i look at the job market don't like now that's just ridiculous communities up and then it's also just you had lots of confidence and also the motivation i can be very hard to buy if things are going well that week. it's so hard to keep pushing and keep driving they keep adding what people are asking for when people are going i just didn't work or it's completely not make any money at the moment and the magic's are going down the pan like those can days can be and problematic and then it's just also not been a developer is sometimes. difficult not just wanted to write code not just wanted to add a cool new feature because it's cool so what personally time is raincoat and i probably do the city to forty percent a publisher to do in twenty five say and i'm still waiting to mexico but i rarely so i can get away with it. the memo so developer ins is marketing sales and all of the others associated goodness that you have with the when a company. tad so i find that development versus all the other stuff is very different workflows like we first started its it's fun you just kind of nerd out and you're trying to solve the problem and your your hacking with with probably if you have co-founders are probably end up being like some your closest friends and you just like your building something amazing. when show it off and at some point you get to the point really like you to turn into something real he start doing it's a formal legal entity you have to do accounting and used to figure out how to a market and those are very lake nona terminus take things like you there it's very different flow like week when your program. the to pick something you might just turn out all day but when you're doing the other parties like i need to spend ten minutes responding to this email and then he didn't respond to that sales call and then i need to figure out like what i want to do with my google ads today and all i got to get the books done for last week just it's very different mindset and it's very hard to balance and doing. the two it seems. that's what else to form a ghost he was the ago i thought of the so-called global total called intend to was ok know we have to make this product so that means the told the website that the day. the surface tautology we need whole bottle stuff they have. some point. i find myself walking be held the week. look it's called on other people screen as they know a bus places that his mistake like tree us have forgotten am on my way to meeting about ok what should be looking for the off the school which it or how it all which courses should be good to see you all what should be the. he showed that we call the stuff like that and does. so all important stuff the stuff as we make the product we make the call a year but torso not due to some of the fence that this is not its over really complex problem the seas be sold to cope with problem know now. also what he saw the because while of the wheat either sold its. but can written off and that like what the biggest houses that like we talk about into are starting with that like if you build something great they will come like all you have to do is build an awesome piece of tack make people discover it will be crazy successful and told me not true he disband at least as much time talking about iraq. some product you spent building it probably more as developers it's incredibly hard to judge whether he's a big and really community is very motivational speaker super famous guy has great lines as marketing is a moral imperative and and i just thought that's a strange thing ever heard but the idea was if you have something that you believe in the. you think is so awesome you have to tell other people otherwise you're getting it from them which for me absolutely i can't do i'm the worst marketer on the planet i can't i just can't sell for motor do anything like that i just get so shocked and shy with it. unlike or in a high. supports the idea also give me copies or give me a some cause of that we have done is fun but says. and also as most of the time they are the focus of the week you know let's talk to treat hundred people a day of the boot so let's do it once these people these people are awesome yes. i didn't give me every one of them one of the time also three hundred times a day to day i think you need a break. i actually i finished the here at the record typically take a look and done. you know it's not normal. it wasn't always in six is hope. this sort. to talking to people in the option a day every single person that he talked to you have to put yourself in those shoes and feed the same excitement let me show you what what what what we're doing is also in the same time you have to the dish. is the sixth them have done this in the court break so been you have to do without feeling here without making the guy to go talking we are like he's talking to a car salesman stuff like that they in a that's probably one of the most exhausting old. so. i don't think it's beneficial because we aren't not to say was people in don't cause and the cost was one am at least that's what i would have an expos and talking to develop list are not selling just having a normal conversation nothing we can play with that in our favour and not go down the traditional and quite say was he really and. i actually started thinking aging developers and been wave angeles thirty year old tricks like to reject that you used to keep yourself out there in in front of people unlike what kind of strategies and i'm listening to the sky. i have another fight my strangers get a good co-founder pepper the extra stuff was mine to actually go and so i knew had taught me who is he as missing has it was so now i'll help us strong dose of liquid courage i owe you take a shot suburban and then i walk of people like and never met like rahm at like him. we see london like maybe two conferences ago i'd never met him face to face book i had a couple of drinks i walk them and i gave him the track just demo with my business cars on my hand like here's the thing that i made i think it's awesome here's the thing that and and is going to do it used to throw yourself into it like over and over again is i want to cut you in the past i had to catch you yeah. i like it was just use too much for me and he got don't know whether it was the birth. but you don't have to also it's ok so you decide you want to become a business founder right and all the responsibility and late nights and not fun things that come with that appear so how do you funded so like you mean do you work at the same time do you just get your job and hope for the baster what was your what was your point i'm not going to start. i did not have a trust fund or savings account or anything like that i works i was a an enterprise consultant on it sounds like at least openside like that that markets kind of tough it's not so tough where i live of there's a lot of very big companies in minneapolis the like setting large amounts of money on fire and so we take. advantages that to some extent and so there's plenty of work is as a contractor there and we kept doing it like we worked for years week in way in the kind of fed into it. i was working as a job as a consultant and building air modern tools for every project that i would build over and over and over again and we decide to do it on her own but we couldn't stop working at the time because i have two kids and a mortgage and expenses and bills and things that just need to be paid so. we just decided that we're going to work sixty or weeks so tuesday's and thursday nights i left my regular work grab a bite to eat and then went to track just work and i worked another four hours on those nights and that's how we got through the first year year and a half just pushing through as much as we could also try and. the money must be some so a quick way to subdue of two thousand and eight and became independent consultant who live build doesn't it was a great go for the economy cars. it was also the same time. for with with my job got a mortgage and they had a to pretty much because to be the makeup been his business from scratch. a and for the past treme is also mind main income was almost as they begin to see if the form consorting now. i think you have a lot of local people that you can walk with my approach was that i would find the client typically some will fall for way am i would go they'll spend a few weeks for human company called them so they go back to the good stuff like that. primarily because he's a and involves italy's it a correlation between how far we are and how much you can charge i don't know why. and what with the baby we can make a formal like was far ways we can maybe like the final hines now final plans were from each other and double our great. but also don't know about it the way out of town expelled came child. i just want to stop the event some point i realized that this is a sustainable way to live with the window like to keep some of the time a and a i started saving a pretty much everything that the am walking. i would go to the customer in the off photo and him go back to go to war for another six miles every day for close to use a in saving her return to the good and until that point to a head. enough money enough money to pay the soay over forced to be forcibly for like to four months in cash is in i don't rely on the future of commercial to they account for all the someone is it so especially not the dots to experian play appreciated that. it took me a year to get the uk but that was the that's much better than having to go to sell to. yet it could have been the speed is the piece month he would have to them that cushion helpful to some some points will take some time to the customer bases that the route. and yet this is where the the life coach thing i don't know i realize they use that term i'm not sure if you guys know i mean by its it's just people that you hire that tell you that your awesome and you can do it and all that stuff and this is where he had to kick in for me because i i i remember i left microsoft and when i joined microsoft to give you a chunk of of stop you know as a. as a thank you for joining or whatever so useless not touch that as the idea and i remember the day that i looked at that i said i need to live on that and in my going to do this and i was going to buy me three to four months of time and otherwise i needed to get a job cash deal with the whole have our say i can. i studied in remember thinking this was this was incredibly important for me it's all or nothing you can go halfway because that would be the worst possible thing because you lose the money and then you didn't have a crap. and so get cash in my stocks and then i built almost everything out by month for and then didn't quite get there so i had start taking on contract work which is ok for them and it would top was doing and i would sit down with my calendar and literally blackout times like a visually see him doing the contract work up to this point and then from here here and doing. this and playing with my family the rest of time and it was rigor and we finally got through after six months we've got a point and then launched and and storage family think during all this if there's a risk and start with your wife ok with very supportive very supportive as you like to stress and it's hard to do with stress you know obviously. but you know you to a point in its it's very motivating its in which you can see the light of the into the tunnel may be what's funny because i'm doing and now again because a so was doing with those videos for a site for a while and they went into enterprise and so i don't do that and i'm so do my own thing again and i'm having to do the exact same deal and so i literally had enough saved to give. by for six months this time which is good and i'm staring down facto city my hotel in the game a calendar like god and two more months to my mind says in its it's a it's all or nothing that read for iowa you're talking about it it's pretty cool out to look at it thinks of the interesting than so i left a previous target which . found it and i left that without any savings or money or anything left in a bank account so i had to leave i had to go contract think i'm so i took on every every interesting klein i could find and which i do with being picky but everything test wicket taking i do not training courses on the side i do have extra. but in the evenings to counteract in china double how much i could and by doubling my eye was it the most sensible way but it's the easiest when you get started and and that helped me to build a good cry base and then i continue doing up for a year and at that point when i started to didn't have an idea of what i wanted to do i just knew i had to do. contacting them and that's when i had to start learning new technologies that taken a step back from coding to do you start to go back to contract and i had to really learn to like dhaka or the new way to doing reacts in or the web frameworks which i hadn't touched them in a while. and so does road like well in his be a better way to the nice things i'm why don't i just build it and that's where cuts coda started to be born. we went for about three different versions of it before it became something which actually makes sense some of the same products and with look at him viewed by for usain of the show people are going right now they could take us until you go through those situations were few times and eventually come up with something quite know what it's the kind of not bad and i'm happy with not that. that's a good starting point the hand and yes the now that's how does my main focus been so doing training one side and still doing work with clients because i have to keep up with my going i'm like there is a deadline and i'm its it's a great motivator to say keep doing additional work and and conferences like this or. of how and build new relationships and how hopefully for new clients and more working that keeps many in the bank which keeps me doing what i love doing so virtuous cycle. it's so we've also the software business is here at which means that there is really have the technology component to business as software developers we've probably are made coating the stakes in the past. what was like the biggest technical mistake that you made or any kind of technical that the two incurred out while while building the business and rob a wow. it's simultaneously the biggest mistake in the best move i made is nowhere to israel's. that doesn't scale i was going to know you is interesting i use rails and i got. but the business up fast i did you know i got moving fast it that that helped the mistake i made was staying on rails and i hear hit on rails i swear even though it sounds like i guess i am being honest and what ended up with when he saw the business was a pile of crap in the database it just was not good and and i had kept thinking i will make. make amends europe attention to this end going to fix this data and think got it had all the logs and payment everything it's weird that you know looking at camp my finger on exactly what was wrong but when clear also came knocking we went through due diligence and all that stuff. they asked for about fifty different reports to show all kinds of cars move in and turn in retention when not as well as financial stuff and who i just did not have that data because i wasn't thinking long term reporting and that's the sad part because that's where i come from that's my back on the database an analytical person so i should have. i sat down and built a really nice database and gone from there but i didn't so that's a that's because you think if you want a bill that really nice database of the front would you have which have wasted too much higher within so the pressure there is the opportunity costs until he's also can use only didn't stop the force of the business. i have made years it would make more money it's. my mind that's a problem but you're right i probably wouldn't sort of thing was no business in the trade of trade and for me it wasn't i don't think of him anything so far probably haven't i'm just not aware of it yet. even start oct i was doing something which actually turns out to be very similar to talk to us which is how i met todd and it's a place and that biggest mistake was spending way way too much longer and building the database and trying to make a scalable solution out the box and we just spent well i spent like three or four months trying to figure out how to get through. engine to work at scale how he behaves space howdy doody jobs get people need this and my four months in had a working norman and that's what it's like well ok that was out with a waste of time and hit big belly button came over and just because i'm focusing on the wrong problem of focusing on been a developer in china. spirited scalable and not actually building the business and that was a fundamental mistake and which is a website if you focused only on a building at its base may be day would never have got off the ground into this place because they would have been from some big overweight heavy which would have liked my team and you would have been is by the way admire the fact. you're not telling us we should have his rate and i know it's sitting right there. the the me. i see it. well done well and such as the so i think there's this weekend of did an endless cycle of failure that it was his kind of intentional so the first version attraction s. was. and yes the n.b.c. three up talking to a sequel server that were both on the same machine that happened be under his desk. they can just in his house like that was version one and and we lost with that and that worked great for like a few test accounts and then we signed a first no real customer everything melted of course right just nothing to do anything we like what you get a real amount of data couldn't handle it and so you know arguably it was a mistake to build it like that. but it got it done like it got us those first customers and then you know we went back in with a couple of very painful long nights where we rebuilt and we actually moved into microsoft leisure and and that was good like that help us grow to the next phase and and then we got to a point where we're azure didn't work for a city where he couldn't push through the performance we needed we could it just didn't do. what we need to do anymore and in so than arguing that was a mistake but it did get us to that to that next phase we didn't have a couple more very painful conversations were he rips all of the stuff that we had you know quick and dirty just called as are directly from our core pieces we had a painfully recall of that out and relearn how to. do it with dedicated hardware and so arguing that was a mistake but you know it but it got us there and so i can't sitting those were hard and fast mistake because it was like the cheapest easy as quickest way to solve the problem that we had and get us to the next phase of growth but did create work. downstream but how much how expensive was it can do to have in the solution it painful to see i feel like it was worth it like in retrospect i feel like it's soft at the time for feel like it was worth of his like if we had tried to build a solution we have today you don't have to begin. formation know we we couldn't we would have known that the problems we're actually going to have and it would have taken us way too long it would have missed market windows like people are the you jump up and compete with us and would have been really really hard so you know what one things like the problems they have like nobody cares about how clean your. the texture is of your star like there's a court for it is ms peters feel are some lethality if you're not embarrassed of your launch like you waited too long that you should just release like this embarrassing pilot grappling does they wanted somebody pay me please pay me to me somebody see that's interesting because i'm actually doing the exact. of as a group and what i'm going to live and i'm wondering if it's an experiment because everyone talks about m.v.p. a minimum viable product get out there in the new improved his ago that actually cost a ton of money to because i had to keep rebuilding tech but rebuild it three times each time with wales and i stopped producing content and that cost money. so i thought well this time they take extra time make it really really look in split i want to come out looking great and have that have a dual purpose of marketing the site and then also i feel good about it and talking about group can feed only talking about technical because you but because i will do what you want to look. and that's important and i guarantee that being you you will have deep take issue with the website governors of hollywood's on twitter you go to miles but no. canada and parts just like second system right like you've done this once before i'd like to know a lot about like this kind of like if i go on track as my build another no spa tool in the monitoring space i know a lot about it would build the next one a lot different than we built this one yet in so you're you're doing suffers a service or i i'm not so i guess it's a. that's a that's a luxury i that i could do that you. so or less years and it is even risen more wind zone was. karzai is all the most expensive ticket mistake we made was simple liked me out. should i know its origin. you know making this hundred fifteen to two thousand live in a decision that we needed to be good studio fully be at the time using civil like to make sense it meant to tricky to use a lot of the same a skill as a tool that he hid a week cited two. it's going to be able to a studio civil liked. the phosphor hold a couple of use microsoft continuously east and the adult a and eventually the by the time two thousand talking to forty come on we realize that we've spent two plus his ordeal time in the studio and now we have to weigh idaho fourteen years of age he meant. five up in doubt affect every shot tree develop will fall six to eight months just into which effectively his it's funny because i just decided to move to each e-mail five was such a big thing for hughes lose. eight did see the light that these hormonal seven point four for the next major those. other hand sane we used to be so crappy that now we all are basing lives the update is not something that we want you to have to say. so that courses tens of thousands a lot of the time that will be spent to hold about. flutey. you've got a couple of questions and not is actually thank you. the questions around like a bit more about funding in terms of thoughts on investors or investment and even if you check the star did you ever take any outside investment or if you didn't mind i'd love to tell a story about so we're person and were incredibly naive about how his work. when we started and we had dreams of no silicon valley no billionaires is dropping the bill second money like you go you have a great idea great team go do this and that's not really have venture capital works in in the rest of the world so we had this great idea that we're going to just compare monitoring in this was going to solve this major. problem that all these big companies had put together pitched actually going around to to a bunch of different investors come and we gave a pitch you can have got the same response from from all of them and it was like yeah this is really cool and i think you're going to make makes money but like i'm not sure and may be like. come back after you had. ten k. m.r. are and yes some customers ten cameras kind like to have a magic number in software is a service where you're having ten thousand dollars of monthly recurring revenue seven number like music like there is a legitimate market behind you somewhere it's like what you guys got to go hit that and then then they become back and talk to us and now. was very depressing we got that rejection like over and over again with that same message and it almost sank us frankly but we decided to keep pushing has already invested a lot into it and in fact we actually were able to hit that number without too much too many more months of effort on our own and then those same investors started coming back to us there. like hey a trench is like let's do some things and and we kind of like why do i need you now but we hit this number like we have money coming in we all have jobs like now this money is coming in and we're growing by ten percent every month like why do i need you why would i why would i work for you now for you to be. my boss and sit on my board in all those other things that go with investment we could his own this thing for growing fast we don't need to be a billion dollar business we were fine with being you know a couple million dollar business person like you don't need to agree don't you don't need you to call us you don't need to be unicorn like there's a way better chance that you can build a sustained. the lifestyle business that can support you and a handful of other people that you're going to totally disrupt the market and destroy everything when really your progeny go down in flames you know a couple years later the kind of a hot and might be as little disgruntled over the positive and allow for lifestyle this is a child like to see. it is what we got from the output for us and move which have been is a. and yes i know the investors knocking on doors guys. i thought about you guys for and rob and yet so i explicitly start a business so i would have a place to walk the have a place to do something that they loved. perhaps he doesn't talk action only business we have to do a lot of other stuff that you don't love the subtitles miscalculation but the whole idea was that. no i want to retire from this place so i kept thinking ok i believe in business for the next forty fifty years. in every team that was ok i don't want to have to meet with investors and have other people. but the mena making demands they are all of that especially because they tend to have very different pilot is very different schedules. it means that i get to a note have you to the talk about the person called the. for anyone to be says that also be if you have he says that's whole body should be at least six a person crawled that's the minimum so you should do more stuff to add to that sixty percent for thirty to know the billion dollar business and then he just said. so does a lot does a lot of thought the the tories who sustainability the issue of i don't want to have to go on have fights all the time ball to the actual the company's is going they have what they want to do and how much. hale who do want to have added of the hotel and that's probably she's in their going want to mind it's an hour they want ten. it's a great rate and that means forcing you to like anger higher sell yourself to a company's right right now i use you're not going to make that ten expects they're going to make itself to apple google microsoft amazon whatever this is that i have my own interesting story and so with tech but where we were lucky we hit that number on our first month with. she was amazing i could not leave a james and i was like wow. i love that money went out trousers so we were unable to sustain ourselves when this but this isn't about that when we started tech have i got a call from airing has gone it he says hey i hear you doing here he doing video stuff in aaron's the c.e.o. of parasite they were doing just on premises training at the time said we're going to get into that to watch. you guys work with us and i said which no chance. and i think their value to one point two billion right now so as a race between for a safe and remember james and i like yeah gamine because they're the only other ones are getting into microsoft video training stuff which is what we were doing and they started taking finding and we said we're not doing that and guess what happened. the it me up nearby i mean that the in the best possible way by the i really enjoyed working and and that's a very serious thing to put the thing about it is when they took their series see a think it was one hundred and no ford millions like that for some big number right big number and. look at that sand well they are going to have to do something to to make that happen for their investors soon you know in the now watching and watching their shift in thinking you know that's a wonderful it was made which board members made that decision to mean and it for them i'm sure they're happy and. knocking them at all just not where they started you know and i kept thinking deductibility that are not yeah what would you do if you look same thing knowing what you know now which way to go well so this is a the end of story as i have a number of little business ideas and i'm thinking about and i'm one of them involves going to get a seed round and and and going from there and i just. the thinking what's what's going to happen in five years time where my going to be anaemic to be ok the orange said when they say when he'd our money so you're going to do this or yet we're going to start courting you a teacher acquired may just thought well no not going to that day's another issue. i. because so little to feces have you mention in the wall is the one of them with six but many pieces many the systematic that the killer blow the something that coca harming cost of those what these of cool stuff like that in its. credible be easy and a tempting to start trying to take money to chase to stumbles so he for want to show that the groin than it needs to show that they have. increasing amount of the amount downloads and installs so ok i'm going to high oil day ten people in this day in dessau the un's i'm going to tell them ok your job now is to go to every single use the globe in the country. in each of these going to give a talk about my day about the product that. i mean in each of those pay back every day you're going to give in you know turns into a hundreds of user groups that get the walkout very fast that gets you down of the two stuff doesn't like the he opposed the products of the team called the day people. so for me that. it's very easy to the true quite a lot of money and dismantle came up we see. huge amount of taking the because you're going after all day six the stuff not going after all they almost as the needs to be picked him out of his ball that means that hulu could have a really good benchmark pay an eater's order to your liking to mold to something like. the aim you don't have good money towards. time of the manatee metrics young south africa is something i'm going for eyeballs instead of going for like profitability. but for some companies that's not a bad thing like the she'd have that place and that's to help you grow and how you sky on if you need if you knew that if you have a busy city does require that money if we need to know if my beef lady of the quality to have a team of time for the most for you. otherwise it's impossible to divert absolutely needed money but the same time we have to concede ok to have other alternatives can i do they can give out stalks can i take long for the bar away taking home buckle mortgage in your house teams to breathe. the a lot less stressful don't want if you options successful did us what did you is that we think it's a mortgage or no a. got a false mortgage. i was leaving pay the mortgage. but i mean that's as a point and like it's different kinds of businesses record different kind of growth so like structures was like a monitoring software is a service business the head like a niche and it didn't need d.c. there was no way like the seas were right to left me out the door because like it was a good business for them something like hoover couldn't have happened. but it couldn't bootstrap who were it just required so much scale before it could have even potentially been successful billion tons of what kind of business wants her and then for mutual about valuation if you go in really really was just an idea they are going to take a large part of that not give you much money for it if you go and we've ten k. revenue and it's proven business. one and it's growing that scaling than that of the middle more favorably and you can get a better deal and you've also you're d. risking the problem from both sides they know that working they know that it's growing so it's less risk to pump money into your company and how to grow with the balancing act for me that's to the point is right don't take many at the start. time find a way to be choppy until you are generating and they made a call how quickly the want to be willing to be open to investment at some point it would open call it open doors and opportunities which i wouldn't have if i was beach think so for example bringing on additional authors and going out into that we simulate a close eye. they have because they have to catch with the that i can give a lot to back to your says and advances and stuff like this which if you teach up in uganda am and so it makes more attractive to have more content they can sell it to to get more and poise companies and as a result they get valued at one point two billion is easier if you have. money to generate more money yet it does seem to be the way and it does and that kind of that unfortunate paradox and so let's go back to the technical side a little bit. so we talked about kind of the biggest technical mistake may be how did you guys changes suffer developers how did your stance on software development change you know after doing these businesses for a while then and laughing so i'm so i used to be very into test development unit testing link old software costs. when ship and that all went out the window start of that just completely disappeared and so that's that's changed my just a way of coach well where my focus is when watching code i don't necessarily want you to test for anything i don't mean either for how to assist man like. does this work is it me to new requirements and then that's my that's my focus not did it make him think green and that's where i had to do big mind shift and you know sometimes books get introduced the nets problem the at the same time against have to market more rapidly and i found a way that's important not i was to point in having. beautiful clean code if you're not making any money so you need to make this trade off i know you have actually opposite view at the moment though i c n n well and it is funny i kind of the i don't hear as much attention and two unit testing his idea but i still doing that actually so. but am so scared for my experience i'm all about databases now i know. all about what bird you in some way that's what it's like areas now i picked post dress and i said i have to get is a fluid as i can sing i want to think impose guess i and yeah that's what i've done and says it is as beautiful normalize scheme i noticed i don't anticipate that i this long story but i have all the data i need. no like every bit of it i guess i guess that's where the focus is you focusing on making sure that thirteen things are in place like the magic said that because that's more important than having the unit testing you can use those to judge how you system is reforming and you have performance metrics the can judge of you having. the right impact on the kobe so not that i'm not dead the matrix as we are now using to judge whether on doing it in a one way that when we are certain scale will probably them don't like we now need to stabilise and been improved s. and will have time will have resources will have the effort and to hope we do that the obvious rate. a grain of half the fact is always interesting the eye that's a different problem which will be soaking up point lead in his mind the phone few days says both his a shirt for that so if you have a customer the child's the to me that you do this if not the north kids. from my perspective the biggest technical he feels the start. i don't kill the much what the court is called do in a mostly leukemia eight or off the ducks is that it has to be paying. but does that mean. undergo a fellow conditions. how he still had to go as does it goes to the low cost low easy if it's an important part of the space so it's not just try to double it has to show to the use of cinnamon almost stuff like that. we have a cost to move that he promised to one point five million machines a in the dots scale of things you see that ok to see how these may site is just the site to site all they just have a lead that is ending a. a whole lot of other stuff like that at the start you could stop getting ok i need to win the peace cases that never happened on our table that you bite for more than five bucks a they will not on stick to the ticket they went to the trust in cuts. of him because doofus was tough but that's the kind of team that. the metal to us now because we're looking at a cost every town to cost more openness support cold that mean want to treat people of his to see to that support call in figure out what is or who is forty saw how to fix a they need to get a pouch they may be a. the parchment of those of us and because most stuff like that so far spent a lot of time and therefore just pain also to stocks on operations same ability of things that don't just do what you start course. and an ecological what i have heard and at some before chance i did a lot of enterprise consulting and i preach law the the queen code in t.d. in a new testing and and all the did they go out the window once it was about like my money going out like unlike its it was my credit. hard it's paying for the infrastructure costs like there's a strong motivation to go as fast as you possibly can and like really focus on what you think is most important thing software that testing overall i think has shifted to where i saw the risk is i thought i'd like a broader perspective of software and the risk was is anybody going to buy this isn't body care. where the real things are going to go wrong and i spend way more time testing those kind of turns into monitoring spend less time actually writing like build time tested more time like you're saying like making sure the laws to the right places and tons of analytics and and front and stuff to know what amazes clicking on the quarter they do it why launch this feature does anybody. care is a drive sign ups like we took when we blog about like we just launched feature exit does this amazing thing stood registrations go up they didn't is it because of normal internet cyclical variations like it's a very i spend a lot more time like measuring what is happening then than the actual technical implementation. the people to look of the disease was he too is the full of political to put soft will it be if they have to go book get the books for q.e. a list all of the state to fix the book. his business owner tells me he's use of other for just a so that's what i'm looking for a case support called have a spinster tickle start so we focus all we do seem to depart that is painful to. it uses to play on a lead be to make a decision. so we're young coast timing so i want everybody like one last shot to say you know if you are giving advice to someone who is about to kind of take on this role or you're going to do it again i see uk from you are doing it again. you know is there anything that you would tell people before before starting a business that you want to say right now we've got about two and a half minutes of everyone could go fairly quickly i must suck up to you and i say have a co-founder there are a lot of times when you want to quit when like life gets in the way and you like somebody says something bad about you on the internet and you feel terrible allies or sell. of and you need something like picking watch. and you need somebody to pick you up and like help you push through it and not quit. and that's incredibly important to be successful and so on. the other side if you don't have a call for new it's really motivated to know that won't eat if you continue. i am but what i need to be forced out of what has a week to d.c. don't control to the absolute was possible scenario if the business is fit and that means that i'm going to do was every bit of money that the put into the i'm going to be i'm going to be. the day the problem with the bank with the mold all have pretty much everything that i can take people and then i try to see how it can make these. a less painful fifty seven enough him when i knew that if a field i would survive this would like you would be faithful to its widest data was sort of that they can go into this. joke that i got a mortgage with my job i had enough money set aside for like tree to fall mortgage payments dedicated to that study was an initial i could have found out what the job become a premium paid out that was my fault but. a if you hit that that's important because when the ticket. probably not a bit of happen he says gertrude that i am an eye for a good routes orphans i would say find the motivation when i when i did just a month ago as i wrote down sort of a future journalist now when i saw you know for me this is what. going to happen in the night but i always tell people is ism if you want to do something you have to make the choice want to make the choice the point of self to it and for me getting motivated is the hardest thing in i literally talk to myself every day and so that the eco exactly the tides of it having a co-founder motivates you rock but find that motivation. yeah i agree find what you know find what you're passionate about i'm starting to way too hot and so much dress some pain to do something which you don't fully believe in and fully passionate now and if you're not passionate about it i change it i change the idea that move on to something else try something different find so a new way of. working and yet just keep the south passionate about what you're doing and if you're not figure out a different way to have some well thank you guys so much for coming everybody can give them a huge round of applause for taking time said that's you tube. you and i'm sure yet to be willing to talk to people after the us to this question so course i've got to as get the room and journalists.