Virtual HLF 2020 – Panel Discussion: Public Science Communication in Mathematics/Computer Science

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Virtual HLF 2020 – Panel Discussion: Public Science Communication in Mathematics/Computer Science
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ok sorry i won't come from everywhere you choose to where come to the heidelberg glory a panel discussion how to trust the in comprehensible public science communication in mathematics and computer science i am focused shots chief editor of the science media sent to germany and i used to.
on on earth to be a moderate the main question of our panel is braced quickly but difficult to answer how can the public develop trust in science where it cannot understand the case of science communication about research mr maddox and computer science to non-scientific public's is a demand. the topic mainly because the essence of formal languages and see radical concept can not in my view at least really be explained to non-scientific the audience as easily so how do research was or science journalist deal with this dilemma are engaging public's was. the underlying scientific concept may remain a black box in the open up sublet folks do we need to why i have the pleasure to introduce our of there's a chill panelists i would do that when after each other we have to eminent scientists and two outstanding science journalist so we have to say.
the sides of the same coin and. the start and gives a privilege to the height of the glory and amongst us which is john locke hopcroft welcome to this panel he's the i.b.m. professor of engineering and applied mathematics at cornell university and he was a recipient of the a c. and am sure ing award in nineteen eighty. six so just briefly what lessons did you learn in your career in your field of expertise with science communication why you deal would do it and what are the lessons you learned. ok i i learned over my lifetime that that you communicate to different audiences as you get older.
i first started i was communicating just two researchers in my specific area because i was trying to build my professional reputation and so i i published in professional journals there with their arms and proofs and so on. but they don't i want to get my reputation a little broader so i want to communicate to a slightly lot larger audience which was researchers in science but not my area. them while i could still put the theorem am i wanted to find the simple as proof possible even if i had to make the serum a simpler their own because they don't really need to know precisely what i had done but just have more general. but gradually as you get older you realize you want to talk to a much larger audience. and and the audience is just not scientific. as a reason you want to do says is you want to make the world a better place. one issue i bring up is something my of global warming. if twenty years ago we had educated at the general population about global warming so everybody accepted at the same way they accept the the world is round. than someone couldn't bring up the notion well it's a hoax. because they would be laughed out. it turns out of the one issue is that i got involved in them was early childhood education and i was talking to have a researcher and they said the earlier you make an investment the bigger the payoff and they said the first two years are what's really important. and it turns out i i went and looked up much of the research it was barely readable by me even though i have a ph d.. but it turns out that in the first two years of a child's life the brain learns how to learn. and i thought it was important to get this information out to everybody because if we went in to inner cities and provided high quality free childcare for the first couple years. the students would do much better when they went to elementary school and we be making a level playing field for everybody. it turns out a lot of this research was done by our national academy of science so i talk to the presence of our national academy and talk about the importance of science education for the general population and the two of us have a discussion but we were thinking of articles in users in new york. times or of major journals are not professional journals but journals of the general population. then i discovered that writers only get six or seven thousand dollars for an article and i thought all of fun ten writers. so i need to find world class writers and so i contacted the editor of a major magazine person who selects the writers. i thought he could help me find writers and i told them this is what i want to do and his response was john that's a dumb idea. and said a follow up because he got my attention and he said anybody who reads articles in the magazines that you're talking about you don't have to worry about the little urn about this but he said there's one hundred million americans who barely graduate from high school maybe take one semester. after college and they don't read any magazine he said you really have to switch to a digital communication a digital strategy and was the reason i bring this up is a is icing communication has changed here during my lifetime it was fine to write. in in journals and newspapers and so forth to educate population but today if you're really going to educate the general population you'd better start thinking of digital social networks in fact i contacted a researcher at university of southern cal. cornea the annenberg center turns out they have thirty faculty just researching how to communicate digital a. and you so this this is my interest now but there are many ways of communicating and it depends on what you want to do. one one of the things i wanted to get people working with me in communication and another way of communicating is by a talk and there are there is a retirement home here in its wake up call campbell and they asked me to give a talk on ai and i went up. about the reason i want is it gave me an opportunity to mention early childhood and what i figured it was there are most of the people at the center retired factory from cornell there are sixty five or seventy and they're probably looking for something to do and in fact i saw. now i'm several people that way so when you are communicating it's important to know why you're communicating. and i've lived on this i get opportunities to give talks of point materials asked me to give a talk on again on a high but someone asked the question is am i intelligent and this let on and i talked about how the brain develops and i'm. mentioned that there's been researched on that if you go in and stabilize a life in an inner city for the first two years and then look twenty five years later. you'll discover that there's fewer mental problems higher educational level higher salaries and the return on investment is significant. so when i was talking applied materials someone came up to me afterwards it said they had a foundation and they funded remedial high school education for everybody in mountain view who needs but they asked me would it be better if they use their resources to the first two years is and they win half. to do the high school. and this is sort of a good idea but i told him you better figure out what fraction of people who are born in mountain view are there are twenty five years later but but you can help a major impact. by by giving talks as as well as by. writing journal articles not mention just one one one last sang i talked to a researcher in early childhood and i said it must be hard to do research if you have to wait twenty five years to see what the result is and she said no we don't have to do is out we use the mouse as a proxy for. humans because the brain in the mouse develop similar to that any human and i ask what's what so rich environment for about the show me a picture and i just mention this last thing about mice because if you're talking to the general population is something that will be interesting to them and and they can understand. thank you for giving me this time your marriage as he will come back to that later because if you stop so early you'd need to end the channel through which to reach the maybe through the parents and education settings so you would kind of do science communication in that specific population to address the questions you like to.
communicate into these little children so that they get a more and rich environment and the right of the yeah it's a tough job but it basically it's certainly a well the education system in the way is the one who's supposed to take care of said and the perils of course but obviously there are some sales. his mansion one thing there may be a thousand organizations involved with early childhood and the of the researchers and they know what to do and so forth.
but our role is to help them communicate to the general population. ok thanks a lot then move on to the car the color she's full professor of pure mathematics at the university of my book and the incoming president of the german mathematics association so what are your ideas and lessons learned in science communication of your as there is the.
if the field of research mathematics.
well thank you ny not in action. that at a similar point then john d. namely we stumble across science communication just by communicating our passion for our topic to family to fan and then the audience gets large audience gets larger you talk to students why you should study medicine. six and computer science and way to liking. and you're confronted with an ever growing and. and why. i'm already anne's which has less and less background in the topic. so that next. when preparing this session i thought for myself what science communication worked on me when i was young and i came out with too explicit things first thing was that extremely huge impact of stephen hawking's book short history of time i. most chastanet is a teenager meeting of a dad and actually i started studying scheduled visit because it can he wanted to become asked says now i switched to talk a little bit but as to what's on the second thing that worked on me was that i found was trying to pull in the dollar off my grand. father's desk was clear to me that this was a high nonfatal mathematical instrument was unable to understand how and where because it's not self explaining why. cocaine playground of it love playing with it clearly this was before google and internet you can look it up so instead i went to my match each an aston and got a lecture on the sly wow this was great. so what to learn about these two thing to examples of first is the book is a typical and less excessive example about talking about science with out explaining it because it's all a western jelena dignity and unity years of study sticks to understand that in nevertheless. yes you could convey the main ideas so he had a way to shankly fine without oversimplifying which was the main reason for success and white where for example on me as a high school girl and a second example with a slide rule is a wonderful example about something where you can lie you. hands on. qaeda john were at to understand big i phone has does that all meaning because it means to understand but it into the men's that you touch something you have some haptic connection to understand english what convention or compound and french call our content competent. take so we need to experience some few examples of signs all scientific models is to a man's i am greatly sure that is held in communicating signed through well chosen on terms and that's why we haven't macbook to. it's nice collection of mathematical models which is basically models which existed or where the nineteenth century water shrew example why simple models made or maybe we have trying to about. which show how to connect to something physical because it has focused said all the talk is extremely asked to act so how do we make the abstract visible mongols and instruments are one way to do well. two of the examples of what kind of science communication i have done so my first is year was try was two thousand farhi of physics this was one of the first really big said successful signs years and i thought about how to explain general will teach kids. i made a high school kid should be more about that and started with designing activities for example weeding a two page paper by each dine with high school last year students and they loved it. and she or genius stinking by breeding year old text clearly not great but it's suitable for that once in awhile you find tax which are suitable new it right you know king over the shoulder of a giant and seed and sinking in in will time you missed and that's something alive. when i mention our collection of mathematical not and the last thing is to activities at local school so i have a son i explained math and family school i explained math and middle school i explain that and i spoke to. about genetic out shut about the mess of voting when there was a parliament election how do we actually assigned seat in parliament i explained in a mansion we wanted signs but only numbers things it's easy things but it's such a way that they catch the idea why does is in poor. to end and that they can learn and you don't be a need to be a genius to do quite well and a lot about that but the idea is human five minutes or oversized audience has plenty of time for this question may be one question rule of them but if you know look into your own research in your own space speciality can you communicate about this.
the non-scientific public's you see a way to do it again in your speech not about calling on star for the statistics but uniform. yes a day all wearing to last two to two to follow a are too late the all castle thinking and to just follow a nice story that and that's how it was yesterday and they are successful example.
words it is a challenge. the but you know at the very and someday i explain why are you doing we're doing something complicated iraq waiters are certainly many manifolds energy and somebody asked what do you do what do you do i said ok i want what country what an addict on does when it falls into a black hole and that's what the public don't understand. so good.
one where he lost his systematic way to the i started of course is a quiet person but maybe let me lng all that and tied up to my office.
you have official channels are the big science will cite east and so one of my jobs all president elect of the d.m.v. german national side she's exactly to try to implement teachings. and she became very good children we rich over little because scientists also kind of observations to buy a profession call signs john isn't that kind of the science communication about science from the outside looking in sight.
have susan d'agostino she was or is a mathematician and she became an author and science writer in many different john most likes the magazine's you're talking about that line take one for many more so what are your experience now from the as a site the how do you look into science come. medication by the from the perspective of a science journalists. twenty summit traveling it's a great honor to be here and say yes i'm season that his team and trained as a mathematician and i actually worked as a tenured professor for decade and then i just over time began discovering that i was had a real strong passion for public science journalism and communication.
and i decided to make a career path that as you noted that i'm speaking to a very wide audience at this point beyond just in the eighteen to twenty two year old college students that i used to speak to when i was teaching. so yes i am i focused on writing books and articles as you mentioned in a quantum the atlantic scientific american and dark magazine or discover but i also engage in many other ways through twitter to him and podcasts and i said i love it for. for me. being able to share my love of mathematics a lot of my writing is on mathematics i definitely have a strong bent my general interest book is on mathematics and many of my articles are but i also have expanded my repertoire of writing into science topics as well. so one of the reasons i love it is because i know. weekly choosing the topics and the stories that i'm going to write about and i often choose them because i have an interest in them and it's often in the writing process that i discover something new i thought i knew what the topic was or the story was going to be and it's actually in the writing process that i discover that. there are some nuance or there's a different angle that i hadn't considered at the start and for me that's a really joyful experience it's intellectually challenging and just very stimulating so my a it my approach is really threefold i keep. the three different entities in mind as i'm writing. i am absolutely thinking about what the science and i care very deeply about the science and getting that right i also care about the bright it because how i write that matters. and it i i i am trained as an academic so i'm constantly as a child to share. that academic take which can be a little bit intimidating for general interest readers and you know i need to loosen up my writing sometimes and then the third. you know concern i have when i'm writing is the reader always i care very deeply about my readers i think of them as intelligent but maybe they don't know about this one particular topic and i think that's very important to you know treat the reader with us with great respect and. to explain in a way that they would find engaging and some of the lesson side learn to. i would say one of the biggest lesson is that storytelling is a really great on ramp to science topics as a when i was a math professor often we would start with years a definition here's another definition years eleven here's another lemme here to hear of years a corollary. it would build up in that way where the audience in a math class room might be perfectly is like ok i'm i need to sit back and i've got to assemble my definitions get the ball by ducks in a row i know that the remote come later and the theorem is the big deal with science journalism its. is a little bit flipped on its head off and you give the punchline first the reader wants to know ahead there's this crazy thing that happened or something that is going to turn your intuition upside down and you just you put it all right out there you put it in the headline even. and then you get the greater engaged by a story or by the punch line and then the reader is hooked hopefully if you do your job as a science writer and. and once you do that the reader says ok i need details and that's when you're able to give the definitions and let the equivalent of the definitions of muslims that lead up to sell for me and i am constantly learning to shed that jargon in and just write in plain english but infuse. storytelling elements while and also paying very careful attention to the science. it's john would have called you because a little sad world don't talk with the society's dollars anymore because you need to go to the public and parents and they believe little children directly the as a recommendation for him what she should do i might try just cast a wide net say yes.
i focused on writing star. he said i'm also active on twitter and podcasts school say speak it well right now with code that it's a little bit more tricky but you know i got a big stars you know i'll go to a retirement about it all go anywhere because i think that everybody can get excited about. science including people who may be don't even identified as somebody who would get excited about science i think that. some of the most challenging people to reach but they're also the most gratifying when you do so my advice is to cast a wide net i think it's great what you've been there.
ok so the question for you and the because of people from all sides say can you recommend some of the articles of your soul which people may want to read so if you could just use a link call reason we could share this was the other communities of the people can read some of the articles you. yeah right kind just consider all that stood on my website. it's just isn't as you know that com the apostrophe good so when i move forward to. that was our goal and she's the water winning freelance science tech and report harsh journalist based in germany and the what are your lessons what did you learn and what is your recommendation as a. women in science journalists have to look into. see all of you. so i of course many essence. and player and a new lesson just this year actually in january.
it's not that you also. he does story. you said if you ask he was talking to communicate science is telling to look on your or at least that's now understood you. just pretend you are on our credit like a party or something and this is just tell to your family or someone else do you know from your personal surrounding this is how i teach them science communication to scientists so this is always start and there's a s. such a complicated topic i have no clue all i can. talk about reading when the public menace ok maybe are on waiting on a saturday because there are many people from far enough away there isn't only affordable there are people who don't have any idea about your what you're doing and all talks are all discussions on these parties started with the question what are you doing and soil. the start of the role game with them and then have to play the wedding have to ask questions these questions to each other what are you doing and i think this is a good way to find out if people find it interesting what you're talking about anything why is this way you find out what exactly is interesting for the people and neuroscience. and what isn't of course because sometimes and it just stop ask you more question that is a little your side and it's not so interesting in this year in general area in a two class at harvard bald public speaking so as a fellowship last year until may this year. q and induced public speaking class on the future always said your is always always always ask the question what's in it for me so before they start reading an article they want to know what's in it for me and before they did go on listening to you then have the same question and in the end of its audiences just. maybe a theory or something smart people thought about how to old phrase that but in the end this is what the question i always have to ask myself what i started writing and way. served as the scientist sometimes have their difficulties to. to think about our to have the a year or two that they have to ask this question first of course if you're scientists year a handful of really interesting things you you and your research on and all the recent article so you're owed and maybe it's hard for you to find out what safety of all this many things you have it might just might be. but you for your audience and of course depends on the audience and i'm my a typical answer to that question what's in it for me is this there is a story for you so they are humans behind the science and this is a tree that almost always helps me to all kind of catch the audience. to make people read all the party very long story say sometimes read. for example my of my mother told me in two years ago that she read a story about virtual reality and written and she said and i thought this is a topic and told me not interested in and i had to read it from beginning to be and not only because i didn't treatment of course she's my mum she is to read but as well because jesus was so interesting and i really want to know. it happens next in what happens afterwards and how does the whole thing and luckily did and so i could write another story and people again and told me that they could start reading it. and what if there's time as i forgot to what the time maybe a short example of how a and how i started with the research so a few years ago and murdered. this technology live blogging is very people lead a lot. america is one researcher was these varying all small camera and honest when his chest and his cameras taking pictures every thirty seconds or less from his perspective so in the evening theory could watch short movie or everything experience that day of course there's nothing people want to. but the eight year on his dream was to make something with technology that can help them and tensing is still memory so his idea was that you could put all of pictures from all his life and he was very this camera fifteen years and i saw him amid all this picture and explorers and his idea was he would like to ask questions. like when he died as she might read my and bake a cake was for things like that in all his result was a cause of all very abstract things like building these other rhythms emitter of carbon emissions on how justice system know what the staging and was the grand my and this is of course is really really complicated and then i thought how can i tell. will show the audience about about this topic that they stay interested although i have to use the world are to them which of course some people don't want to read or stop reading immediately as i was a tumultuous and spend a few days with them and i became became data he became many many of those pictures and those freed. these are just my face on them and they were to the store or so could i could write a long term future story or apartheid and telling people not as a field you are all have something this data point in the collection and start is too long and can you say would you say lid for every.
the. the research was a story to tell would you go as far or is something we would say well this is starting can be picked up in a way i do stories. i would say me in the area research his story like this of course this was not a.
it's not of course it's the trial because i think if you tell something he's right about image recognition and ai that can find. the giants in data that sounds quite complex but i think you if you think long enough about the topping really talk according to talk many people as these researchers what are you doing. the infected by the research world will know how will it change our lives six in the future sometimes i find people already use kind of technology journalist. that is. actually he developed in the lads are still a lesson the first users and then i go with them for a few days and so i always think you nearly always can find a story just needs a lot of time to find the right to take on it.
john may be counted no interest in a bowl social science journalist would have been thinking a lot about the audience what is the audience so what is the story where can i get to that audience when you boasts talked about your issue you are trying to bring across in science.
on occasion you had lots of things to say and you know already what your audience is in your case little children and you want to reach them by some technique. do you think scientists may have been too much intellectual mode so you have very interesting things to say you want to talk to anybody who can grab and the science stories needs to for a single bar while what is my audience and how can it help should in your case it's quite complicated obviously you cannot talk directly to the little children just. race you need an indirect way. it's our its new who is your audience is very important because quite often hear a speaker give a lecture.
didn't understand the audience at all in don't work but also it's important you know what gives you want to accomplish by your article or talk. and so you don't have to tell people so much about what the science says but maybe more about what impact it's going to have on people's lives or how is it going to change the world i mean for example and i talk about ai i tell them about how it's going to automate jobs. and jobs are going to disappear and what fraction of the population is going to be needed to produce all the goods and services we need and so i don't really talk about artificial intelligence ai i talk about things which are of interest to the general population. but as a concrete example if you talk about.
of intelligence without talking about the essence of the signs and you thought well maybe some jobs will be gone then it may maybe people fear artificial intelligence because of my job will be gone so that's bad so i don't like artificial damages see what i mean that's a problem.
that's one of the things that china is very concerned about so they asked me how do we create meaningful activity for people if they're not going to work.
some sense if you make it too easy you will have a kind of uneasiness affect people may understand something or maybe even misunderstand the thing about it because it's not about what you want to communicate but just instilling fear for some technology which may request them so that you have a problem. we have a question you hear from outside and i think it's a baby for you or professor regular. i wanted to come to that any hour and day he is somebody asking that he is working a lot an interdisciplinary problems and he wants to communicate it's a scientific cop expect it to other scientists who are not so quantitative lee miller was see that if the concepts and he was you.
obviously looking hard the tools and techniques to bring down the burials even now an interdisciplinary science communication not to non public's but the other scientists who may not have been exposed to you were suggestions how to do this. well it is a challenge and ease into one community is not likely hard speaking to several communities is willing and challenge right in the internet and were never fades into one department that sell this were the fasting a cell from the question is i understood it. the cousin are asking our that he had a very good name be using figures in this situation is glad to let and street. i mean it is well known that the mathematicians extremely fond of the brick wall. you write and add there's not one lecture that passes that i gave without making a drawing on the blackboard. a good example a good figure explains more than one hundred abstract field. so showing these examples wisely and suitable is to asians is certainly extremely good and that and since this is interdisciplinary in mind person all year would be ok used his medium. whether it's high tech or videos are just play ball doesn't matter as long as the message is clear and show why integrating that he can chalk takes is an advantage what do you gain from using methods from different topics and what all the gracious between topics why i see every eye. elated point in complete what do we gain from this integration so what are the richest between topics right and show you one model want to steer. they sell.
his afridi plot of a space schilling these were invented by piano and children in your man so crazy mathematicians one has to say like that will more than one hundred years ago now the extreme wheels falling computer science whole.
you play example for now passion to say that i don't get high dimensional data you want to put them into linda away and to say to date a little of the so you use the screen so it's a wonderful example how you need input from different topics and that it fixed. time by to way to answer questions you didn't know a half. and so chooses these examples and use some surprise and him and like showing that wasn't important why isn't going to write what can we do with these thugs and that she all the un's by playing does which functions that would be my first. this idea.
i'm not a question from outside and i want to toss to any how about it is just a panel have any suggestions on how we use technologies to clear bury us and improve sense can occasionally be maybe if i knew shot because you use a lot of technology also in your reporting so maybe have some ideas.
since suggestions i think the question is is this digital new communication rare i'm not something very good to do completely new ways of for storytelling communicating and communicating science not just in writing which remains important of course but maybe the other ways to do it what is your experience. they are a start it perfectly for for my price because he is more i see said her introduction statement that this german word for understanding which its centennial stretching are feeling something you're an end.
and since i read a lot of things you cannot touch and see in real life is like other rhythms or. face as was just for way or inside all brains a robot and your senses was all a thing they're really at stake for people and a. a a normative asked myself if i can see and touch things that interact with them. so i started tool. experiment with virtual reality because of course you can't read you print things you can is all the model in the computer or use a headset ideally as it because it helps much more in control so that you really can't touch things. so at that moment i am i'm working on a b r are meeting stays what we can go with our audience in and for example is always on my pilot project will be able quantum physics and already exists to experimenting with a quantum physicists say i'm working together on this project are eternally with him about about one germs and. because we're shooting a sketch in the it in that it was love of the box and you can open it can even see through the boxes close of course it helps a lot of you want to understand quantum physics and human can that can be yourself for other planets and all these things so. all things you can do in real life and that helped me a lot and an hour or tests audience which only a few people so far ridge who choose to understand what happens or at what is known of course about hundred sixty all far soul and the much more open towards we aren't there and because people always there was extensive. there are already many three d. models summer online or people already had little money through the malls and his solution latest software it's quite easy to to just put them in we aren't headsets get cheaper and cheaper to continue their can interact with each other make things bigger and smaller touch them and find out how the. maybe they were for example what part. yeah i just i just wanted to follow up on the last two comments and i absolutely agree that the technology can enhance understanding were telling science stories and i just want to also reminded the audience that don't forget the very low tech methods we have as well as.
and mentioned the blackboard and you know that something just drawing is actually saw another way of conveying information when i was working on my general interest math but that came out earlier this year. in my contract i had specified that there would be about fifty sketches and then i set to work i you know you get the contract and then you go in and you write the book afterwards and i started drying and i forgot about my contract and then when i was ready to submit the book i realized oh i think i have a few more than fifty i think ahead. about three hundred fifty drawings i had drawn so i quickly write my editor and said you know is this ok and they believe is fine with it but i think of myself as a mathematician and a writer and when i was working on this book i was thinking. you know i'm going to be using my match training and words to explain this and i was my goal is to avoid notation to avoid equations but to convey some very sophisticated naff topics. it turned out that just sketches and i don't consider myself an artist by any stretch of the imagination but just earnest sketches that which is what minute can be described as and i've since had the chance one of the gratifying parts of being a writer is when you hear from readers and a lot of people a lot of readers of. shared that the sketches are what have you know provided that en route to the topic so i appreciate a commanding the blackboard because you know you can if you have a blackboard go for to get a piece of paper if you have a cocktail napkin if your party wherever draw something you don't worry about your to stick skills just do it to. the best of your ability to drawn to the maybe you can leave the home of the little bit of the christian the impact of technology in your area which way you want to go did you hear anything interesting lessons how how you could do it and communication last year there is an issue with technology a negative issue and valley as the.
or number of news organizations now which track what how much time you spend on various topics and then they send you the news that you want rather than the news to have you should read is also a if you watch television news news. so they present is decided on what's going to attract more readers so that we can get more money from advertising. so we've got to be careful all the somehow we make sure we send people the data and information that's really important for them to hear rather than what they walk in here.
yeah this is a very important issue i mean. concerning zoo to join is what would you say i mean this is a really is serious problem i would say so if you just write and talk and speak about things people want to know that science gets a problem because the not everything can be as attractive as some emotional contents which spread easily unbearably. we have no use in science communication so what is your experiences said the problem in journalism what john is talking about. even i had.
yeah i think that the problems of course it's a problem off for example and i wrote about getting everybody years knows there you get what area.
it wasn't about all of them or that facebook all fours years you'll more for what you seem to find interesting is that all of a sudden you think this is nothing else happening in the role as well and journals especially online journalism. interest because often new sites are are of course they track what do people really did a show that more of these things that of course this is most of the time not important but it's more complicated six or computer science that was a time it's my area i think we learned animals sex. the and on jeju you are things that people want to read about anything that's that's really big mistake and you shouldn't do that we shouldn't let anything which would rather try to find. yet this wasn't for me when i talked about before trying to find the east these things what's in it for our audience in those topics we think that are important and and and try to try to help them to find it interesting.
yeah i'll just add the tax part of the science writers job it's too.
convey why the world should care. and i think as eva pointed out that there are topics that we can take for granted that the world cares about but when the topic is not one that we can take for granted that part of what needs to that needs to be part of the story why should why do we care.
you want to say something i interrupted you before so you have to comment on the to how to use digital technologies to reach new audiences.
beginning his broken a year i just wanted to know whether you have suggestions you presented his little nice piece you have another suggestion to use digital technologies to reach new audiences well obviously days and what is needed is a kind. integration of its thinking he writes that the asia or the media or tax and everything.
we experienced already this jones in reading text books anymore. you need to extend a friendly they go to some new channels which sometimes on not exactly the quality a dead we would like them to watch so how do we educate and two shows know why a sweden means and interviews and to them and the solution cannot be that every scientist has his own channel. and having even more people acted on twitter is good but it's at selectors said general bad go on i do not have the absolute could i see that child manage in science communication clearly in the integration of different means it were just a show catch people at an early. the moment you get them interested in something and then to just follow up the line like they take a either and a day they signed up for your channels something that is you otherwise but the starting point is missing so how do we get them and it's i would say so clearly what the judges. doing it is what is in for me of this story telling supported now i am doing. yes sure as it can be so this is even more difficult because if the question is only what is in for me i have to answer while not that much and yet you should listen and yet as something to say to you right so i believe that what is important in all this charlie.
telling his we have to not forget what makes all science to arm on orders charlie's that in particular math is a structure signed it helps you put something in the ever increasing complex work wave.
huge amounts of data are statistics other things and to court with means a lot shade and abstract thinking so instead yes giving examples is important but examples are not the kind of are signs of concept of numbers exist whatever you're counting and that's how i asked for goods other things are working as. as well to follow a is that it does not rely on piquet shuns so asking is your science good for publications i say none doing prominent always urgent they didn't issued i do not have occasions in my state com or don't have at some moment but what i will teach us how to fourteen. all the even complex world and this kind of magical thinking will be important for you whatever your dream late so that's the doll that off to stroll selling aspect which would like to emphasize just as much even if there's nothing in particular in cordell. i would like to hear jones a printed about just the icing because you had three six periods in trying to communicate through examples an application what about the core of your find what you're really interested in the technically in the computer science is missing out if we just do it like fire. and susan a little bit weird kind of suggestions are we missing out some very important stuff well i i sing. it's the early in my career i was simply interested in the technical aspects of the research that i was doing and was an interest in the application things like that but as you get older on what what's of interest to you you want to have an impact on the world.
i must admit there are now when i give talks and so forth i seldom really get into use the depths of the research more i talk about how it's going to change your world what the impacts are what you have to be concerned about and so forth. so i i i mean the obviously the science is important but one other thing i might mention his sayings often have side effects. and the side effects are sometimes far more important to look say the article high. so what one example of the out. is we have a national science foundation which runs the research of faculty and number of years back someone at the foundation asked us to tell him about important work with down which had an impact on the world and the reason he wanted i believe was to go to congress to get more funding. but the message that researchers to dock was it was important to do applied research rather than basic research. it turns out it had a very negative impact on our education because the mission of the university is not to do research. is to reduce the next generation of talent. and and this things are just very complex and around one when you write the side effects are important.
jacco had good question i think it's true it is that maybe the susan or if i can. a comment on that indeed the question is how do you strike a balance between end two thousand and ten the sea and he's interested in the biggest science community in funding emerging scientific and technologies like the one we're talking about so we can go all the wrong direction is the kind of instill in the public image that certain feel some more interesting than other fields and then we are.
we're not. produce the next generation of good scientists in areas which may not be covered as much and then also you get over expectation in certain areas well cancer will be solved by artificial intelligence and maybe overlook some other areas which are report said the issue you struggle susan a lot with the young. now an easy for me it relates a little bit said the conversation we were just having an i want to point out that it's am when i talk about storytelling in science it's not always about applications sometimes it the story is about the fundamental math and the fundamental science in one example ad from an. article i recently wrote there is a new theorem of the prime number theorem and i thought initially when i was working on that story. that it was about the fact that there was this new theorem out there and as i got deeper and deeper into the story i began to discover just how many that the mathematicians have this funny habit of taking they know that the prime numbers here ms true but they just keep proving it different way. the story became. this kirk of mathematicians and why are they doing this but if they know that the statement is true and it was really about that pursuit of knowledge and the joy that their subject brings for them i think that in this sense we could probably take a few kilos from people who write about art. people who are writing about beauty that because often that's the story of fundamental science which is that it's moving in some way and it transcends our physical experience on earth so when i talk about storytelling it's not always about what are the applications so. i think it relates to this question that you just brought up which is you know how do we balance of the easy as and that we know that the in the world has for particular topics with. the more obscure topics that are not as widely appreciated and i think that's our job as writers to us especially as people have deep passion for math and science topics to bring in out those those lesser known stories when people find they. they get very excited when they are you know when that they're in a maybe they're busy and their lives into that lots of burdens responsibilities and then their stopped by an article that just makes them think think about something lovely. that can be a very transcendent moment for person and i think that that's part of our job a science writer says to deliver those moments and they're just as important as talking about occasions so. you probably have become of the le saux balancing between what is really important signs are was kind of attractive or so. i think it's important to read it comes to high is to the and to construct a high so this is something i in the meantime really open to because i see that the the public is interested as well as finding out about how it happened i started and often scientists as well.
nothing forget about some important things on their side or just jump on the hide but forget about asking other disciplines i think it's often about maybe an example of the most recent research has evolved in europe tech so the idea that with ai neuroscience you could read out the brain it you could read. what a thing or even what i dream about. and yes he often the computer sciences and grow scientists don't talk to each other enough to deconstruct the high before it's too late in the and read and then anything that happens if so science journalist like like i started questioning that telling the weight i guess this is really i'm yet this. as i did not realistic anymore then i think it's really important is all and i'm telling you this because this is something experience often. scientists and then they don't want to be honest and i think it helps lauderdale. yes story was a heightened sorry i forgot to ask this and the question are wouldn't be better to work together with colleagues from the other discipline and i think that if it works like that there really open and honest it's not it's not bad for them know it is the opposite that looks makes it makes them more or more trustworthy and. the new for the audience.
questions are coming in and one for the two scientists and all rob the panel and the somebody just wouldn't be fair to say. may i add to a little last year to this topic of hype topics and. comment it's easy. the cars so let me put it into a global context we have here the competition between the topic about the location of funding to certain areas money as china it is also saw fine and therefore it is absolutely a legal question to ask questions of money go. so if you have emerging topics and certainly part of it should be going on the new year but then you have the wealth bag of this location so in some countries and settling in germany in some moments you can see that a lot from montego as into quelch a finite time. and very specific topics. and the gentle funding for basic research at the same time it's going down so in all of them placed a topic in order to be successful you have to offer this stunning and to jump on these projects is set to air and as a waste in all these the cars if we have learned something in the car would condemn a device. despite of that of not being a whole math and computer science topic is what country needs is indeed tenant researchers now and this is a fundamental statement but i find it extremely important here is a tenant reserve which is only guaranteed by basic finding ad units. cities and research institutions and it has to be independent off habits. he will find his parents not only because it is the talk of science communication but because it is a talking about how science works and the public needs to be reminded once in awhile that. doesn't scientific research has it. it has a stout it takes years and the cage and it is not working and outcome is not what you expected in the heights you know you usually get a year you're telling the audience we are going to cancel whatever and you cannot hold his promise. have you made an unsigned that just doesn't way if i knew which zealand and uplifting ten years i would do it right now but is so let me be little bit provocative. when i hear your point or she is a very delicate way we communicate too much science but not in the way it should be communicated because he is if you communicated as a problem solver who can solve problems you may miss the most important signs were problems are not yet solved and about which is much more difficult. to communicate so what could be a very dangerous and really try to reach everybody but because you want to reach everybody we only region with stories which may be the wrong stories at least once the bay state funding mechanism of sciences can sell so the disorder are never finished as well. there we are then. past experience.
one and again curb weight nineteen teachers estimates how to deal with the best matches against the spending of the pandemic where it's something which needed the situation there was some ideas at the beginning which then got collected and and people set up at screenings ago you said something said what this moment because that's how science works. when we make progress on the topic so actually from the positive side is that this could be an example about how scientific knowledge goats and we had to always remind what's really interesting is all it wants all corners of calls. this is yet his millennium twelve months and mathematics which i believe were in together because a shell out that there's still something to come in mathematics because one want idea about math in the palm each other in a public is sometimes but it's all over we learn about math in school this is new and old quickstep. that lines in trying as and things like that and that's all over what is it to do actually and to communicate it is a heartaches audiences and when they will be useful for all the for the future and them lots of open for most has its one nice aspect but i just wanted to make sure that you know this how eight and. but you know each the balance is not only in communication imported it's even important for how a whole sciences organ that's was my main point she thanks for letting me know.
question may be true of john something i think he's making the point you you you made already and that is whether is more important to describes a question of the problem including its significance for the public that is scared of addressed all software songs rather than spending a lot of time how. now science is kind of addressing this kind of seizures of not go into the deep misses the science involved and you said that in the beginning but again there's a balance which you agree this is a good way or do we miss out some very important thing i mean all for the non-scientific public and right are. you know this area is so complex and there's so many different issues and. of that different each person has to sort of do what they enjoy i mean someone someone when they're writing an article they are right the articles that they're enthusiastic about and.
that's the same with when people are doing research they ought to do the research that it's exciting to them now. rather than focus on specific issues i mean i was going to mention one issue and that is the children of age maybe ten to fifteen. if you describe some basic science to they are that there are curious and start to explore they may pick a career in science rather than in law or business or something like that. so all these things that we're doing our just incredibly important and i don't want to push any one of them. in what was influential on me was to box that i read is now men tree school child one of them was by polio call how to solve and another one was called one two three infinity and these were books you could read if you were twelve or thirteen years old and you could think about these side. ideas and you could become curious and that would is what creates i think a scientist. but i don't want to push that area because they're so he different areas that we heard and they're all in court and so the advice i would give actually to younger researchers are writers is do what you enjoy a you'll be most excess long and will probably have a bigger impact on the world then if you try. pick something specific. so i just read you have so many questions in and the queues of me may not be able to answer all of them but i want to give at least a few and one is so susan various specific one and the when writing the mess of medics to general audience as if you ever had to compromise some regular or massed in order to keep people interested.
the store. that's a really good question i'm i think what is important to think about as a mathematician writer is enough if am assuming that this isn't someone in the matfield it's asking a menace possibly thinking about writing friends you writing themselves is who's your audience.
you know when i've written for quanta i can get much deeper into the mass in that publication it i'm working on a story for the washington post right now and there's a different standard different publications because their audience is expecting a different level of understanding. so have i ever had to compromise i not to the point where anything is an accurate. in the event that i it. what what i'd come to realize as a science writer is that explaining a scientific concept or mathematical concept in particular to it in general interest article it's never going to be the same as when i introduced that topic in a college class or where. but you know every detail was spelled out. that said it doesn't mean that there's any compromise and quality it may be that i indicate in a certain article that you know maybe i'm glossing over some of the details but he but here the important features of the argument so i think that it's important to look both at the micro level of in every sentence is it. true but also than take a step back and look at the big picture of the article and have i represented this mass accurately and as long as i can say that uncomfortable with it so i don't feel that it's compromised. so but i'd actually curious to hear it even has to say jersey law same position.
if you have to the front door with news media to compromise once the content of the stuff you writing about because he could not get across so i think not come from i think there are other similar question about.
do you. to understand exactly how things work and thing best that's maybe the point that helps a lot because i know because scientists people often asked is a hawk and euro computer science expression got a i am these complex topics and i think it's not that you have to study there are people don't have to know how exactly a i.r.i. girls were getting there. more they should. understand the concept behind it right so and i for example explain my articles the eyes really good at finding patterns a big amounts of data and really radical and that and that's the reason why am i sometimes find the measures we humans didn't find and this is the reason why it is sometimes goes wrong.
because there are patterns in the data and we're not aware of but the out there and use other thing thing so people can understand things like by his in data are patrolling recognition different kinds of others who loves for such pacifiers built groups of those data and again they do it without a human being ground. even with thing we always thing doesn't make sense to look groups like this and the other rooms always was just fine groups and even for some i was working a text mining and parliamentary debates and the adult middle group of of articles or that started with the ladies and gentleman of things like that course is what not to talk to. we were forward for topics but of course doesn't know these things and i think if you are able to help people understand that general construction all these things and they don't have to know it indeed tell nothing this solution to things like that that's not about compromising or. of course lot of odd getting things wrong or of making mistakes anything it's more about finding out how you can explain things that they know the important things about to understand the impact on their last. i'm a question for john again and she is interesting because you were talking more breaches his parents or teachers with his little children that they can get better educated have called how to become a and he's asking how do you explain of did you find ways to convince people may not be.
police in all the knowledge you have accumulated and you want to communicate the of any of the sites or practical tips order to talk to people what can you do if you encounter somebody who does not believe what science is saying about early. in development or how important is to make the rich environment for the young child would not say why doesn't matter what to do well it turns out that i can to talk to people in what are called my bubble and and these are educated people and i'll they believe.
even science and so force are i mean when when truck was running for president say was out there is no chance of the world he'd be elected because i didn't know anybody who would vote for. but there's another section of our population which is half of our population and to be honest with you i somehow never communicate with am so i'd i don't know you know how we reach that group but but that it is really critical to reach that group because they vote. iran. on so that there's there's an issue there. because his as i mentioned i can only talk to people who who believe in science and want to talk about early childhood they may not realize the first two years or court but they know who knows that is the child grows up every couple years there there's more things they can do they know. when they get to be sixteen or seventeen they can make a decision about safety. and and the nose out and so it's not that hard to explain well they do learn something of the first two years. basically what they learned is a learned how to learn. and this notion that you some children are smarter than others. i think most people think it's genetic but i don't think it is i think it really depends on that early childhood so i say i don't know how we're going to reach half of the people in in the world so then let it be awesome to science dollars it's an interesting question so how do you reach the ones we don't reach so far.
i was sent to the case may be profess i recall you have also some ideas what do we do with his people who who one not get on the science i say but what does your suggestion vigilantly for the first that is really is taking it seriously so what i saw and many americans latest has. the last year that they said john said before the election they didn't see those people because there are some ideas because they were separate full of bottles and they thought it was all that trouble you could win and its lead way maybe didn't let on that and i think it doesn't tell all not to talk to those people. i'm here because you see. can happen read all of us certainly a rear politicians making weird things and and destroy democracy in the and so everything we had to find a way how we can talk to them in my experience as when i meet people work with little about all of them for who say things like failures of any them in person. that helps a lot because an aviation and its heart lot harder for them to tell me your fake news and so why should they do this ride and then they see this is this is someone who wants to explain things and walsall ever and help us understand science and american any. five talking in person someone it's easier to see the just that. good good motivation and and. harder for the government tells me what to do working. and this is this is what i found out what most of the editors do as well and that's the only idea they have so far as the tinkler personal cause of course doesn't scale because. and again this is something. he argued hell wasn't of course there's still yet to be in person but we don't have to shovel think they know that's another part of the you are the art project i'm working on a think we really should kong that you should go and talk to those people although it's of course pardons and complicated question.
they are and you working on is unavailable was to subsidize exposed as a project at its the room and social we are in the art said and at the moment it's not public because we're still working on it but this long will soon be meeting for protest face and was interested and it could drive me.
emails and me an odd on twitter and i can't write them is less i know the date so it and maybe if you want to join.
i wanted to come and a little too hard to communicate do once we do not reach some communication so far. not having a city for how to teach single that what one sees what is typical for this kind of his cash is that the general public is not always away at about how signs were and yet many people out day and who call themselves experts and huong.
so a to make it this is a responsible key also for journalists in particular to feel contact her son's why is weak and everybody holding a ph d. is an extra by definition of even everybody having a puzzle title can you an extra that not only in a sense it is.
care thousand may be a good scientist but unable to communicate with even worse it may be somebody who is in a certain position and my we have to communicate house signs wizards have constructed. i'm and it is a difference in sings like. so i guess somebody duty nice class as an expert saying climate change doesn't exist and there's another one who say that exist and therefore i just keep to been you know like. by now we have a lot of evidence and we have to communicate how this evidence is the deal and we should try to avoid getting too much room to these noisy people who are. org.
washington is a good point to me like i'm always arguing that science journalism is in the way the kind of the gatekeeper was able to spot experts were subject to say i'm not just the process until but talking some some stuff to the public but the problem is with a digital communication anybody can basically no communicated he can claim to be a professor and an expert. talk to audiences the on the internet so if we are reduced all the filter systems who can do quality control even more more science communication out of signs will not do no good and therefore i think it's very important that we keep the professional signs dollars community in the loop because they're the ones who.
can point who is an expert on what control is this kind of metre expertise. you should talk to and many whom you should ignore if he loses science will be against lot of lots of people who just too interested communication what do you think to the island. i agree with everyone and i don't have a magic bullet to solve this problem and wherever i would say i'm in the us and on the front lines of where science is being questioned and it's very distressing to observe.
i would say even though i don't have a solution that it's a very good fight to fight and i think that science journalism is one of the mechanisms that we can use so the way i think about it because in a all i can do it's my own and control my own actions. that you know maybe one day i'll write the story of my career but not every article that i write is going to be the story of my career but every article i write is going to contribute something to science journalism that you know maybe that will be the one article. well that somebody raids and. it to pass judgment on the credibility of the field and so for me i take every articles that i write very seriously because. it feels like a great responsibility. i agree with eva absolutely that we need to figure out more forums in which to talk to people and also agree with where we should not be getting platforms to anti-science so-called experts. so i would say is it's a good fight to fight and i think science journalism is to the way we're going to do it and try to communicate them and will approach to the employer would like to oust agreed to fuel a final question and that is a just really what if you look to the next generation still younger.
people may not read newspapers in print anymore use new form of what ideas do you have to reach these kind of so the next generation audience what kind of science communication of science dollars what is your personal plan how to do it john do you have a suggestion the next generation. that last that's a problem and are you're asking somebody who's may be too old because i still read her and i still friend things from the computer because i guess what i'm across the uk but if you dr shaw.
drugs are they know how to use all of these digital technologies and so forth. are they on its it's really a going to be an important thing because i think communication is changing a fundamental way but let me just bring up one other issue and that is how do you trust what what you read because the virus has educated may.
i didn't realize in the united states that all of our history textbooks for elementary school in high school have been sort of whitewash they don't really present history as it occurred.
the interim when he gave a talk into also oklahoma and it turned out that because of it something like john king came out this was a major historical event that nobody that i know i have ever heard about. beyond its cause me to go back and realize that what we've got to do is find some way of making sure what is out there and is accepted his is correct and and i don't know how to use that cable car just the sort idea about the next generation how.
but to reach there was a barrel roll new ways of central location. it's not. you know could face start at an hour flight schools places and they're getting an attorney as new the young generation sell may also help and digital class homes but they entered the kids are the more i would rely on a dime.
contact and if they see this because scientists to is not a typical computer nerd with fuel duty and everything but actually very diverse population of people then hopefully get an interest and and see this is something.
i could do and maybe people. you mentioned to me that it's getting more difficult because all the gadgets we use computer loose ball was phones whatever what is in their you cannot just a big rise in a really quite.
the difference so is that it's probably the we are. where for example and donald can fairly easy thirty eight.
effects and already programming skills including skills of terms. the signs and ask students why down instead of going up which is change the cars digital way is taking our but that's because more of them want more apply to us and more bites and an hour to install an app and how to use it but they're not taking a part of pieces of a computer themselves. they had not dared to a radio ought to take in all the parts of the telephone because all the world around them is getting mortgages you don't have an answer to our of middling on their cars on weekends anymore because it gets to know which technically involved he said two and so the good will. i or daily life com tad to take and knowledge she as i and she aid is going down.
we can do to go against its development would be home for just one minute soon.
what is your. thinking of all selection oration and science journalism of course yeah i know i would just say a ride i think of myself as a mathematician who writes but i've then open to new opportunities and that's the message i would leave the audience members would be open to opportunities because i've found myself and podcasts and.
the middle different kinds of the unusual settings where i've been invited to speak just the open to it all and you know radio shows its it's been fun and there are new media is coming out every day and there are many that exist already and just you know the opened or invite yourself. when and just to get that math and science out there. now what is your final word on this next generation first i think it's a cliche to say that the center is not interested or doesn't want to be responsible for their future revenue for example of climate change crisis will future is seeing how they really want to change the world and in what you see second i think is how all media.
talks are earlier talk to write about them which is not taking them seriously right i saw so many articles questioning is this reader tumor is she doing the things she's doing because she also to it as on many. the editors who often are male wide and order and fifteen just don't think that she said wouldn't say that's from other on a father whatever letting that sick and the first is taking this seriously and and and meeting their meeting them in person and listening with interesting and air. good to know we almost agenda he will urge us to thank all lose to penalise and i have to make an announcement at the end and because up next to the most a session in the virtual meeting happen so when you enter the happy will land in the auditorium where you will find an overview of all the post office and where they are located so.
so take a quick look and enjoy the virtual presentations and with this i want to say thank you to all i think we had a very stimulating debate and lots of insights have fully for are people outside couldn't cover all the questions and all the issues of course not because.
so it's going to gauge and size dollars with such complex field and with more and ever more important science it's getting all over more port so for now i think you all and thanks for the organizers where i discovered this unique event and there was a good life.
thank you to die. i. will.