Spring & Steam, an Odyssey
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00:00
Spring (hydrology)Game theoryService (economics)Software developerCore dumpScripting languagePhysicsComputer networkRun-time systemGame theoryStrategy gameNumberMultiplication signSystem callSpring (hydrology)Core dumpRevision controlExecution unitMoment (mathematics)Total S.A.Service (economics)Software testingShooting methodFormal languageSoftware developerPhysicalismLine (geometry)CollisionTouch typingComputer animation
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Spring (hydrology)Total S.A.Multiplication signReal numberEndliche ModelltheorieAngleVolumenvisualisierungAnnihilator (ring theory)Order (biology)Computer hardwareVideo cardSpring (hydrology)System callVideoconferencingComputer animation
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Run-time systemTime evolutionSpring (hydrology)Annihilator (ring theory)Game theoryEvoluteTotal S.A.Different (Kate Ryan album)RoboticsComputer graphics (computer science)Spring (hydrology)Computer animation
03:20
MereologyGame theoryGame controllerKernel (computing)Discrete element methodSoftware testingMessage passingEntire functionAreaBitSoftware developerLimit (category theory)Perspective (visual)Spring (hydrology)Online helpDisk read-and-write headComputer animation
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Revision controlGreen's functionSpring (hydrology)Revision controlMoment (mathematics)VotingBit rateGreen's functionStatement (computer science)Game theoryMeasurementRule of inferenceMassComputer animation
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Revision controlGreen's functionCore dumpBitDoubling the cubeSoftware developerMoment (mathematics)Computer animation
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Revision controlGreen's functionSpring (hydrology)CatastrophismEntire functionEvoluteLevel (video gaming)BitRevision controlFrequencyCASE <Informatik>Transport Layer SecurityComputer animation
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Universal product codeGroup actionRun-time systemTime evolutionWechselseitige InformationGamma functionLocal GroupGodServer (computing)Game theoryMultiplication signSet (mathematics)Spring (hydrology)EvoluteRight angleSquare number
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Online helpRun-time systemTime evolutionEvoluteSpring (hydrology)Game theoryOrder (biology)Internet forumSoftware developerCodeDenial-of-service attackMetropolitan area networkComputer animation
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Run-time systemTime evolutionGame theoryGodService (economics)Spring (hydrology)Term (mathematics)Game theoryState of matter2 (number)Spring (hydrology)Entire functionComputer animation
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Time evolutionRun-time systemSign (mathematics)Game theoryTerm (mathematics)Service (economics)Spring (hydrology)WeightClient (computing)State of matterGame theoryPosition operatorSpring (hydrology)EvoluteTask (computing)Computer animation
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Menu (computing)10 (number)Spring (hydrology)Revision controlGoodness of fitWeb 2.0Annihilator (ring theory)Chemical equationGame theoryTouchscreenComputer animationSource code
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Task (computing)Digital image correlationHill differential equationExecution unitSpring (hydrology)EvoluteSpecial unitary groupComputer animation
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Order (biology)Spring (hydrology)WebsiteGaussian eliminationGame theoryTotal S.A.Software testingScripting languageOvalEaster egg <Programm>Computer fileTouchscreenMappingComputer animation
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Game theoryComputer fileDirection (geometry)SoftwareComputer programmingTouchscreenSpring (hydrology)Metropolitan area networkWeightService (economics)Computer animation
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Software testingUser interfaceRun-time systemOpen sourceMultiplication signStaff (military)Product (business)Flow separationBitComputer fileSoftware testingVideo gameUser interfaceSoftware developerSoftwareRun-time systemCASE <Informatik>EvoluteSpring (hydrology)Attribute grammarGame theoryLimit (category theory)Insertion lossRevision controlComputer animation
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FreewareGame theoryBefehlsprozessorSoftware developerMoment of inertiaGraphical user interfaceServer (computing)Human migrationGame theoryPresentation of a groupCASE <Informatik>Interface (computing)Physical systemSquare numberHuman migrationSoftware developerGodFlow separationSoftware testingMathematicsNP-hardPlanningLie groupDataflow2 (number)Link (knot theory)System callMultiplication signPerspective (visual)BitOrder (biology)Stability theoryElectronic mailing listServer (computing)GradientUser interfaceComputer animation
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Game theoryExplosionInternet forumProjective planeGame theoryComputer animation
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Game theorySpring (hydrology)Multiplication signQueue (abstract data type)Order (biology)CuboidBitTouchscreenGame theoryUser interfaceWeightSource codeComputer animation
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Graphical user interfaceChainSpring (hydrology)MereologyUser interfaceArrow of timeGame theorySet (mathematics)Right anglePower (physics)GUI widgetComputer animation
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Set (mathematics)Right angleLevel (video gaming)MaizeComputer animationPanel painting
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MultiplicationDemosceneExecution unitPlotterLevel (video gaming)Computer animation
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Logic gateRight angleComputer animationLecture/Conference
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Strategy game2 (number)Computer animation
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Strategy gameGraphical user interfaceEstimationSpacetimeGame theoryComputer animationPanel painting
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PhysicsMaß <Mathematik>Uniqueness quantificationExecution unitSpring (hydrology)Computer animationLecture/Conference
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Spring (hydrology)Computer animation
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Computing platformFeedbackFeedbackGame theoryComputing platformSpring (hydrology)View (database)Computer animation
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Computing platformFeedbackGame theoryRevision controlGreen's functionState of matterLocal ringBitCASE <Informatik>Physical systemComputer animation
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Uniqueness quantificationBitMultiplication signNumberGame theoryServer (computing)Uniqueness quantificationGraph (mathematics)FluxDiagram
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Plane (geometry)Multiplication signBitGraph (mathematics)
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Sign (mathematics)Game theoryPhysical lawBit1 (number)Local ringMoment (mathematics)MeasurementSource codeComputer animation
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Server (computing)Maxima and minimaStability theorySpring (hydrology)Thread (computing)Software developerState observerBitGame theoryReal-time operating systemProduct (business)Multiplication signMaxima and minimaCodeRevision controlService (economics)Server (computing)Run-time systemEvoluteAnnihilator (ring theory)Total S.A.Link (knot theory)Strategy gameHypermediaMoment (mathematics)Parameter (computer programming)Software bugView (database)Reading (process)User interfaceSingle-precision floating-point formatComputer wormHand fanSimilarity (geometry)Covering spacePoint (geometry)Ferry CorstenStability theorySource codeLine (geometry)Insertion lossCellular automatonGoodness of fitStreaming media1 (number)CASE <Informatik>ReliefMathematicsMachine visionCuboidComputer animation
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Transcript: English(auto-generated)
00:05
How many here are familiar with Steam? Okay, just wanted to verify. Let's go. I'm Eshed. I am a core developer in the Spring RTS engine. RTS engine is like real-time strategy.
00:26
While we have lots of games, well, I don't know, lots, but there are quite a number of games. The engine itself supplies, you know, some underlying services that most games use. It supplies some scripting language so the games can actually be written by something
00:44
that is not C++. It supplies physics. Everything is really simulated. Units cannot shoot through units unless you have a certain tag that says, do not collide. And, you know, graphics pipeline, test finding, which is endless work, networking, so you can play with your friends.
01:05
And currently we have 27,963 commits, so it's been kind of busy. The first version was released on 2005, more or less, so it's been, I think, April. And it's been working
01:20
even before. In total we had something like 100 contributors, but at the moment the team, the core team, I mean like people who touch, you know, feel comfortable touching everywhere, is kind of less than two. And I'm like half at least, at most. So this is the engine.
01:44
It started as a reimagining of a proprietary RTS game, Total Annihilation, that came out in 97. By 2005, you know, hardware was quite better. You could use, you know, video cards in order to render stuff. Total Annihilation was using all kinds of weird tricks to render
02:07
3D models from a fixed camera. So TA Spring, as it was in the beginning, could do it from a different angle. And if you can see, this is like the same model. This thing is what's
02:21
there, this is here. And it really just used the assets from the original game, but using a real 3D engine. But time has passed, and people understood, wait, we have an actual game engine, we don't just have two ports, Total Annihilation as it is. So other games
02:43
were made, such as 0K, which you can kind of see that it is similar to the mood and things, how they looked in Total Annihilation, and Evolution RTS, which kind of moved from it, but it is similar in some ways. And there are games that look quite more different
03:03
went into, not robots fighting robots, but I don't know, you might recognize some of the things that we probably have no license for, or Spring 44 that nobody requires a license for. And they play quite differently from Total Annihilation games, and you have like really
03:24
different games. Kernel Panic, as you can see, like entirely changed how the graphics is imagined. And it's still an RTS, but it's like inside a computer. Gravitas, which was made in a game gem in 72 hours, was quite fun to make, and it's a puzzle game,
03:43
not even an RTS. The controls are WASD. It's really, really different. We've made more games in game gems. As a recommendation in general, if you make an engine, game gems are an excellent way of testing what is fast, what isn't fast, what things work,
04:03
where developers need a little bit more help, like your users. So Area 17 was a really fun game about an alien looking for their partner who ditched it on Earth and you're like burning the entire place with doomsday weapons. And Pass Needed was
04:21
just a spooky, you know, a first person perspective game that also could kind of happen. And then you'd be really like testing the limits of Spring. It might be an RTS engine, but maybe the abilities can be used in many ways. But let's talk about 0K. 0K, as I
04:45
showed, is one of the games. And they wanted to release it on Steam. So if we look about 0K, like the past history, the first version of it was released somewhere around 2007. And with games like this, the first release is not usually when people start
05:05
to actually play it in masses. When I say masses, I don't mean like AAA games, but I mean like whenever you come in the evening and you want to join a game, you will find people to play with. This is like a very important measurement. And this had happened in like 2009. And since then, like consistently, which is quite impressive to be more than
05:25
10 years consistently, you know, finding people to play with. It's like one of the more popular games in the Spring engine at the moment, I think it's the most popular. And in 2013 or so, Steam came up with the Greenlight thing. Are you familiar with
05:48
Greenlight? No. And also I will say Greenlight was basically because Steam were understanding that they start to be a monopoly in deciding which games are released on
06:01
Steam and which not. And when you are kind of deciding which games reach an audience or not, that might be a problem for governments and stuff. So they kind of offloaded the work to users. Greenlight was a thing where you put your game to the popular vote, and if there are enough votes, it will be released in Steam eventually. Like it will be
06:24
accepted. So Steam Greenlight, like 0K put the game in April 2014. It was like in the same one, it was accepted because there were enough users to just bring and, you know, bring them to vote. And then, just, you can see this is in May, you know,
06:47
even though your Greenlight doesn't mean you have to release the moment you get the Greenlight. Liho is, you know, a core developer of 0K. And he said like, we have to prepare and double check lots of things now, so probably a couple of weeks.
07:02
This happened in May 2014 when people asked when it's going to be released. And then, like, you know, in June 2014, a little bit more than two weeks, it got released. So that's all. Any questions? Yeah. So a question like that you might ask yourself is
07:23
what really happened? Let's talk about something that happened a tiny bit before that. Remember that I showed next to 0K, another game, Evolution RTS. So it was released, the first version, also around 2007, quite near the timeline of 0K. It never reached a big
07:47
popularity. There were people playing, it has a community, it has a community now, but it wasn't in the same level. And it submitted itself to Steam Greenlight very early, near the beginning of this endeavor by Steam. It also got Greenlit in really, really fast
08:08
because the entire Spring community happily helped it to be Greenlit. And it launched 4th April 2014. As you can see, this is very, very close to the 0K Greenlight.
08:22
Now, this all seems very nice, except that there was a catastrophe. Steam decided that they want to advertise games. And on the main screen, when people opened Steam, there was this feature about Evolution RTS. Now you can say, oh my God, this is like
08:47
the most amazing thing that can happen to a game. Not exactly. What if the game is stationed on a server which isn't even its own? It's like a server of the Spring engine, and the Spring
09:02
engine never experienced a big influx of players. And maybe we had some problems where every user gets all updates about all other users. If you count fast, this is OAuth and Square. So when there are a hundred people, okay. When there's like 500, maybe a thousand, all right.
09:25
But this goes up fast. And if everybody and his sister from Steam comes at the same time, what you get is this. This is a code developer of Evolution RTS, the one-man army. And he
09:41
wrote on the forums in 7th April 2014, please help me. I'm at work and Steam users are flooding in. Blah, blah, blah. This is like we had technical issues. Now, in order to explain how big of a problem it was, people from Spring that don't even play Evolution RTS came and
10:01
started helping and assisting people how to get into rooms, how to open them. We will see later why it's hard. There were people from other games also trying to steal Evolution RTS players into their own game, and then somebody starts a game and they see another, an entirely different game. So it was mayhem. And then you have all the people that it doesn't work and things
10:24
became slow. And then you can see reviews cropping up like this one. And this is very sad. Note, this is not a review of the gameplay itself and you'll find out why in a second. The download for the game is simply a download for a game lobby. Oh God, why? I hung around for
10:46
around 25 minutes trying to figure out how to just start a game. Okay, this makes no sense. Like somebody wants to start a game, they should be able to start a game. Something was definitely rotten in Spring and the entire ecosystem if somebody spent 25 minutes trying to
11:05
run a game. Now this is even worse when your game is free. Like let's say you are a big company and you release a game and then somebody paid for a game. They have sunk costs. They will spend 25 minutes an hour to learn your game to do something. If they downloaded it for free
11:24
and things don't work, they will just like uninstall it and play something else. There is no sunk cost. There is no big reason for them to persevere. So this is the current state. Now it was worse before that, like after the release. But currently it's like 50%
11:46
positive reviews is not good. And the bad thing is that it's not about the game. The game is quite nice. It's not bad at all. So I talked about lobbies and let's start talking about lobbies.
12:03
This is how a lobby looks. It looks nothing like evolution. This is a task client and there's also the F lobby, I think, and wait, Spring lobby. As you can see, many people tried to write lobbies. There were like always people unhappy with how the previous lobby looked.
12:23
And wait, I think there are more. Like this is Spring web lobby. And then they made another version of Spring web lobby using React. And 0k understood that it just makes no sense that every like lobbies work with all games. So maybe they should make their own 0k lobby. But you can still see other games like Balance Annihilation. And so what is going on? And
12:46
this is like, this is a new one. Actually, I gave this talk a year and a half ago, more or less. And this is a new one that somebody started making. Just a screenshot, it wasn't released yet. And I also found this one. And OK, something is really, really insane.
13:02
If you have like 10, I don't know how many, I probably missed some. So many lobbies. Why is I start Evolution RTS? And this is for a very interesting reason. When you start spring.exe,
13:23
this is what you see. What, I don't know what to do here. Like select the game, select the maps. What is a script? Test the, what is this? This looks horrendous. And this is, I'm not even exaggerating. When I first downloaded spring in like 2007 or six or
13:46
something like this, I was sure I'm going to play single-player Total Annihilation with spring. Because nowhere in like the website said it's multiplayer only. There is kind of single-player, but it's basically multiplayer. And I just ran spring.exe because it made sense. And I see
14:02
this and I don't understand anything what's going on. And I just gave up after a bit. And then I found launchers for, oh, some of the game had single-player launchers in order to replace the lobby. And what is a launcher needed for? Because if you just run the spring.exe, you just get this screen that isn't supposed to be used by any user. Instead, there's this
14:24
text file, which is called a script, which says like, oh, this is the game used. There are recent death scenes. This who against whom, like the alliance says, it holds an IP if you're trying to connect somewhere. And something has to generate it, and it's not
14:43
the user. So naturally, this program will be a lobby that handles all the network stuff of like, this is what the game looks like. And then they send directions to the users to generate this text file and start spring with that text file.
15:07
Okay. How the hell did we get to this situation? Like, it would make no sense for any place to use it. But I think it's an inherent thing in open-source software. This is a quote by Erik Raymond. It misses the attribution. But anyway,
15:32
there's a closely related issue, however, that I don't know. Doing systematic user interface and user testing. And why is that so difficult to test user interface with end users? It's
15:47
because basically users don't want to do tests. And you cannot trust developers to do tests because then they use text files and stuff like this. And user testing costs
16:02
money. So if you don't have it, it's a bit of a problem. Or you need lots of users that will agree to, or maybe not agree, just release a version and see what's going on. Because everybody has a testing environment. Some people are lucky enough to have a totally separate environment to run production in. And this is what we always do
16:21
in spring. We just release stuff and see what happens. So in this case, the big, I don't know, the huge loss here was Evolution RTS. They were the testing environment for 0k. So 0k sees that like a week ago there was a disaster with the current situation.
16:47
Something has to be changed so we don't release and we don't suffer the same fate. And this is why it wasn't released two weeks later. So this is kind of what I said. User time is a limited resource and dev time is
17:05
even more limited resource. This is why we don't just pay developers also to check because we want them to develop stuff. And you know, good will. You can only release so many crap
17:20
releases until you won't have any users to test them. And we talked about free games having it worse. And even if you are improving stuff, some people will not like it because they've been playing since 2005 and they're used to things just remaining the same way. If you don't know this XKCD, check my presentation later and really it is one of the best.
17:45
But basically users like things to stay the same. And if you're trying to get to new audience, you have to change the things that are broken. So there's kind of a tension. If you, while you are doing the tests for the new people, you're losing like veterans.
18:06
And is it worth it? Are you sure that the new people will come? It's a bit of a problem. It's a bit like, you know, from the end user perspective, they think that you're just trying to ruin the day. They think that you were in school and you thought that like if the teacher
18:22
is giving you a bad grade that like they hate you or something. And when I was teaching in junior high, I understood that the kids don't understand that I'm on their side. And if I'm telling them something is wrong, it's because I want them to get it right the next time. And you have to tell the kids all the time, I'm on your side. I want you to succeed.
18:47
So this is kind of the same with our end user. They just think, oh my God, the developers cannot just keep the things good. They have to change things all the time because they are bored. And no, we don't. We actually want things to improve. We were very sorry that things don't
19:04
always do this, but like, yes, sorry. This is like a zero-case slang. I hope you like it. If not, well, nothing to do about it. Anyway, okay. So let's understand what had to be
19:28
changed between like the planned release and the release. First of all, the server, we talked about the O of N square. Something has to like solve this. So you can actually support 1000,
19:43
2000, I don't know, as many as might come. A lobby, of course, is a problem. We cannot just use the current system. It makes no sense that you will see a list of 20 games and the lobby doesn't even look like the game. You know, people look in a screenshot in Steam and they want
20:03
the things they run to kind of look the same. It's about branding. It's about like understanding what's going on. User interface. I will show in a second why it had some problems, but as a game made by developers, kind of for developers, it was very customizable too much.
20:25
Single player. Like many, many games, the multiplayer community is much smaller than a single player and you kind of get, you know, a foot in the door if you have some single player presence. So you're not just like for the diehard, you know,
20:44
StarCraft insane people. And the trailer, because if you change things, like you had all trailers, but if you change things, then you need a trailer that shows how the game looks now and not how it looked before. How did we solve all this stuff? And when I say we, even though I
21:06
decided to like work and change things in order for this to improve... How much time? When did I start? 20 minutes. Amazing. So first of all, there was server
21:22
migration. 0k decided to just make their own backend and like at first there were some issues because why can't you just like work with the current server, which the server was good, but in the end, this was the exact tension about when you're a game that is released,
21:42
the biggest thing you need is stability and they couldn't just stay on the bleeding edge of the server like it's in the engine. Second thing, in-game lobby. Why not take the lobby and put it in the same executable? So you don't have to like run lots of stuff and this is a good
22:03
thing. The GUI revamp was like basically trying to standardize everything, I will show it, and the rest was compromises and luck and we will go through everything. First, in-game lobby, like when we started talking about lobbies, as you can see like that many people did lobbies,
22:26
even more people tried to come up with different designs on the forums. It's more just like funny and basically all the people were just forum post about stuff instead of actually doing
22:46
anything. I can say that I don't understand what's going on here, but I actually made this one so I do understand. This was like criticism of the entire 0k project. Anyway, this is the
23:01
in-game lobby. I think it's quite nice and you know there are two really really important things. One of them, it has 0k in the top so you know that you started the right game. It's not a joke and other things like there's like single player multiplayer,
23:21
it doesn't clutter your screen way too much, only a little bit and you will believe me, maybe I will show later, how you really need very few clicks in order to get in a game. You don't need to spy this small ready box that you have to tick in order and I don't know what.
23:42
They implemented a matchmaker so that in two clicks you can wait in a queue. If the community is a bit bigger then you wait short time but now it's like you know a long time after the steam release you might wait a lot but it's like with regards to the approach it was really really useful in the first few
24:04
weeks let's say after release and even now people are using the matchmaker for like competitive playing. This is like the old user interface and you can see like you have lots of stuff just floating around and they're not entirely consistent with each other like this
24:29
playlist which is kind of in the way, it doesn't really look related to any of this stuff and this just floats like I don't know and this is because you see this little button,
24:44
this green arrow if you click it then you can just like move your GUI around wherever you want and you have like if you press f11 you can choose all kinds of widgets and stuff that you can add you can remove everything was like immensely customizable that is awesome it's part
25:00
of the reason why Spring's user interface is very powerful but very ugly like there's a cost benefit here but once you want to release a game you should kind of use what power already exists and try to make things more consistent now I don't want you to think that the only thing changed was moving the mini map from the left to the right you can also flip it there's
25:25
like a setting but in general everything is kind of better docked to places and they got rid of this really really bad button that lets you move everything you can if you really really want to shoot yourself in the leg you can kind of find it hidden somewhere in the settings but
25:44
in in general this was much better and like I use it there were also compromises made this is a single player campaign instead of going you know full red alert with stories
26:00
and and and the plots and I don't know what that this was kind of the idea in the beginning and just somebody came up and said okay let's just do a galaxy map when you like go from planet to planet and every planet you unlock new units and there's no story just like you progress you you learn every like planet you you learn how to use this unit it's like kind of between a
26:25
tutorial and and the single player experience it's not as good as like something with a story but you can have fun here and there are like bonus missions you can do it on hard difficulty which is quite difficult and and it works this is single player people can play it at home before
26:44
they are getting shredded by the pros in multiplayer and there's luck which is basically that we needed trailers and for trailers you sometimes just need the right people I think
27:00
that sound is kind of not very good here right or do we okay we will see because I'll just show you the trailer and if you don't hear anything then I'll try to narrate it oh I'm muted yes
27:27
give me a second um yeah I'm muted I'm not too muted I don't hear anything I think it's trying to go through yeah I will see if I can change it ah here give me a second you can try to use
27:53
this but I think it's going to be no no I think we have Caster Caster is even yes
28:32
we have terraforming we're like almost the only game that I know that
28:41
has pathfinding with terraforming anyway this spring aha anyway so there are things you cannot
29:58
always plan for like that you will have people as talented as dying friend and and spring that
30:04
will do this trailer and but it works and it showed like the new UI which is important and before the steam release we did a smaller release on itch.io anyone here doesn't know it's
30:20
it's a smaller platform for publishing games much much more limited and it was kind of trying whether you know people can download it and run it and not cry and there's like a smaller risk because you the reviews from there are not going to be passed into steam so it's just like a great opportunity for feedback and knowing what works so it works very nicely
30:48
actually because we worked for quite a while on fixing everything I didn't talk about the in-game lobby this is actually something that I worked on a little bit not on the lobby itself this lobby was someone a guy up doing but like you needed to change and like have another state
31:06
during you know scripting and there was like lots of fun stuff but everything kind of worked which was quite surprising and then there was like the 0k steam launch in april 2018 four years after it was planned so these things took time and and we really spent
31:27
quite a bit on it and then like we should ask ourselves whether it was a success so this is like the number of unique daily users and daily first first time players and while you can see
31:41
that the days after steam are at least twice than like the all-time peak which is quite nice and this this is quite 2020 this is now so we're already stabilized after the really really big peak in the beginning one thing that's important we survived like the influx in the
32:03
beginning and then a week or two later I think it was like the week after the release that I made an error and like broke the server during the weekend exactly when we were supposed to like get an even bigger peak so I'm sorry about that but doesn't matter we got we've
32:23
managed to get players and you know even though we don't entirely know how many of the people coming are old players because sometimes people used to play see oh this came on steam I liked it back in the day let's go and have some games more so it's a bit hard to check but
32:41
in all in all I think this is nice but the bigger question is about retention because all these things that we change we're supposed like not to bring many people for the first time you really want to see whether more people left or less people left very fast like so retention
33:01
graphs are a bit weird but in general I think there is a little bit of of better time this is like the stimulus so you're a little bit better retention here than let's say here and you know why here the retention is bad because this is when all the things were changing all the time just before the release and this is like the question when you think was it worth it
33:26
okay and this is also a nice measurement of success which I think we have lots of user reviews and they're quite positive and I think I've read each and every one especially the bad ones and it's really fun reading bad reviews you have the ones that are like
33:44
they have good reasons and then the while like why is it not Age of Empires and I'm like well listen but yeah and I should really probably stop reading because it's a bit
34:02
of an obsession although it's fun so let's talk about it was it a success because when you work on something for four years when you know we didn't work on more interesting feature let's say because we wanted the stimulus to work so first of all donations cover the service cost
34:21
we got more donations which is nice before that they didn't cover service cost they even like they covered the 0k server and then 0k sent some money to spring to cover our service which was nice I had to ask though but it's getting maximum amount of players really our goal
34:40
because maybe changing the game could also get more players in a similar manner because like there's something very very charming for me at least in having this die-hard fan base which is also why we have players for 10 years because they think this is the best game they're not playing it because it's free they have money they're just playing it because it's like almost
35:01
payload to them and maybe maximum amount of players isn't really needed so maybe we want more exposure to get more devs I don't think we got even a single dev from steam I don't know maybe we did get a little bit of contribution but I know for sure that spring didn't get anything
35:24
from from the stimulus do I think it was success I think it was like I learned a lot I had fun yeah it was very very impressive I don't know well user wise like considering our goals I think it was quite nice and but you know different people have different opinions
35:46
the aftermath the devs were burnt out like a few months after the release there was nothing nothing being done and then there was like all all the talks about whether stability is more important or stability is more important and when these are the same on paper but they're not
36:05
like from the engine people guy like point of view the version of engine that was used in 0k had bugs and we wanted them to like um update but they didn't want to because these were
36:21
known bugs who knows what new bugs are in the newer versions and and there were lots of arguments and and like trying to work out how to really you know keep changing the engine and keep using a newer version which you know still goes to this day and what I think we learned
36:41
is minimize mttf do you know mttf it's a mean time to failure usually no I change it into mean time to fun like I said when you have user interface or anything you want the player from like the moment they started the exit into when they're having fun to be as short as possible like
37:02
two clicks fun this is good if it's like I have to read lots of stuff and I don't understand what's going on not fun this is about anything like tutorials user interfaces buttons anything also compromise like the final version didn't entirely look like what we expected I gave an example the single player some things that the engine planned no you know not of
37:24
everything works and you have to put like the line okay we're releasing this what and and we hope that it works and and that's all question and this time yeah do we have time yeah we have some time okay yes I was just wondering because it fits the question of genera or like what's the
37:45
link between spring or 0k and supreme commander if there is one yeah they were started being developed well not started but spring was started before supreme commander was released and 0k I think also about this time and it's just the genre that's the genre they're both like
38:07
drawing a lot from total annihilation so okay this is kind of hard to do sorry oh planetary annihilation took from oh yes sorry so no no that's total annihilation from 97 yeah
38:24
and more questions yes yes we had we had a few oh we um I was asked whether we had media exposure and so 0k wasn't advertised on steam like evolution rts maybe it would have
38:46
fared better but this doesn't matter we had some articles not in very big places there was actually more media exposure about 0k back in the days like in game magazines we have people to this day that saw it in like a german game magazine that sent CDs or something back
39:03
things that I think disappeared there was even one article that I have to tell you it was about someone who tried to play it on like a gamepad or something an rts game I have no idea and they were quite frustrated I can understand why anyway yes
39:24
if you had to go back in time right now would you do it would you do it again yes okay I was asked whether if I would go back in time I would do it again and yes like like we've learned a lot the product now is much better and we had fun and we didn't argue that
39:43
much like it's good yes how many people are working on what is it on 0k um it's hard to sorry how many people are working on 0k it's hard to tell there are like a bunch of people
40:01
kind of active it's in much slower development now than it was before really really hard to quantify but you know there are like regular contributors doing things yes okay how do I see
40:24
the future of um real-time strategy I don't know about the future but currently it's dead I hope this is a little bit more I know like I say it is dead because just like from an observation
40:41
of interest and what people want I don't agree that um things that like will magically be solved because there's a new game that solves problem I don't think so like users know what want and they want dota or whatever yes there was one there and yes
41:07
okay I was asked if there were forks of spring there was one attempt at a fork but they um it was an in-engine like he was an engine developer he did lots of multi-thread stuff that nobody could write and then like you had two versions of everything and it didn't
41:25
go well and it was decided to remove this code so he got quite pissed like I understand him but then he went away and did the version without releasing his source code and like violating gpl so this didn't go very well because later it just it didn't keep up with
41:44
our development and no game actually supports it and that's it do I have more time for questions