Is this a place where they grill us? So we only have one microphone, and the microphone is super important for the recording, so we will have to pass this around. It's going to be like hot potato. Okay, so this is the panel on .NET and open source, and I'm going to start out

by asking our panelists to introduce themselves, because I'm sure they can do that a lot better than I can. Hi, everyone. My name is Ratka. I'm a .NET Core Quality Engineering Lead at Red Hat, and I like presenting about silly things, like earlier.

Oh, I didn't know you were at Red Hat. Excellent. I am Miguel de Casa. I worked for the loyal opposition to .NET for many years, and I am now part of the .NET team, where we work towards bringing you a happy .NET experience across every platform.

Hey, my name is Chris. I'm a weird F-sharp guy, and on this panel, I will always say, yes, Miguel, you are right. You know, when people say that they're weird F-sharp people, you look very normal.

People tell me, oh, yeah, no, no, he's an F-sharp guy. And when I saw you presenting today, I was like, oh, we should hire this guy. He's awesome. So one of you told me that the F-sharp people were weird, but no. Yes, we are. Don't trust me girl. All right.

So what is next, Miguel? Yeah. Okay. So in a bit, I'm going to start taking questions from the audience. So start thinking about what questions you might want to ask. But I'm going to start out by asking, what first got you into open source .NET?

Well, Red Hat got me into open source .NET. Basically, I started as a game developer on like the usual suspect C++. And eventually, our studio needed to write really fast prototypes.

So we created a clone of World of Tanks in six weeks, which is quite an achievement. And this was in Unity 3D Engine with C-sharp Mono. At that point, I believe 3.5 version. And from there, I was freelancing for a bit, doing a bit more game development.

And then Red Hat offered me a job because in my private time, I really liked playing with Linux. So they're like, you're the right person for the job. C-sharp and Linux.

So my first contribution was kind of like classical F-sharp way. So there was some project. Actually, it was fake, so F-sharp make, which is F-sharp build system. And I've done this passive-aggressive tweet that, oh, hey, fake doesn't support this feature that I really, really need.

And there's this guy called Stefan Vorkman. You might have heard about him. He's responsible for fake and pocket. And he tweeted me, yeah, you should do this. And then after I've done it, to every new contributor, he posts those really nice GIFs after contribution, after he merge pull requests.

And that was so great experience that I've decided to contribute more to F-sharp ecosystem. Yeah, that was the story, seriously.

How did you start paying off? Well, I just did this presentation a couple of days ago, actually, to some interns. I was inspired by Richard Stallman for a vision of free software and the free software of the freedom to use, modify, redistribute, and redistribute modified versions of this for many years.

And this started around 1991 or 1992, when I had access to some computer. And out of nowhere, I could get a free compiler that these people at the free software foundation were giving away for free.

And I could not believe somebody would give away a compiler for free. And I felt that and a text editor that I use to this day, Emacs, and I felt that I owed them something. So ever since I've been working on open source software, there are a couple of gaps that I mentioned before,

but open source at the time or free software was not really viable in the world that was dominated by Windows. So I decided that I was going to work and build to create a world where free software was an equal partner in the world.

Or in a shorter version of that, I was set out to destroy Microsoft. So I just had a slide deck of everything that I tried in my career, which was I worked on the Linux kernel, on device drivers for the Linux kernel,

on the Gnome desktop, on a failed attempt at Java called Caffe with SWT. SWT is a piece that failed. Then I worked on the Windows emulator so we could bring Windows applications to Linux, Wine.

Then I worked with Son. There was an opportunity to work with Son to compete against Office and have a free Office. So it turned StarOffice into Office. That was a negotiation that included giving up my own baby at the time called Gnumeric. So it's been a long route of things that I competed with Microsoft for many years.

The ironic part is that at the end, after trying many times to build companies that did open source software, it turns out it's very difficult to pay the salaries of people purely by writing software. You can try different businesses, but it's very tough, very, very tough to sell software, open source software.

So I've been doing proprietary software for a while. And ironically, like I mentioned earlier this morning, the ironic piece is that it took Microsoft to acquire my last company to open source my work over the last, I don't know,

six years, seven years. So, but to me, the reason why I started doing .NET was because it was a means to an end. In this competition with Microsoft, we needed to build a lot of software and we were writing tools at the time when we started in C and C++.

We tried Python, we tried Perl, we tried Scheme, we tried Tico, we tried everything that was available in 1995, 1996, 1997, and it was just too slow. Scripting languages in that era were just not good enough.

The computers are running at 33 megahertz, they have 8 megs of RAM. Running an interpreter is just suicidal. So we had to write C code, and then Microsoft came up with this thing, which was a combination of high-level programming and speed. And we said, huh, this is exactly what we needed.

And it turned out it was exactly what we needed, and it blossomed. And now Mono is built and deployed in more places than you can imagine. If you own an Android phone or an iOS phone, you probably have one to

30 copies of Mono installed right now. And I can't share the numbers, but they're not mine, they're Unity's. But yeah, it's been fabulous. But to me, it was a means to an end, right, a means to an end. It was the right technology for maximizing performance and productivity.

So that's it. So what excites you most about the current state of opensource.net?

I want to go on a soapbox again. Well, I personally like the fact that it is opensource, and that's, I guess, all that needs to be said. Because .NET Framework has been closed for too long,

and I know there are issues why that cannot be opensource. So we have .NET Core. And I really like, the exciting part for me personally, is the cooperation between Reddit and Microsoft on .NET Core, and the whole kind of journey, I guess.

Yeah, well, my point of view is kind of similar to that. So what excites me is the fact that Microsoft is trying so hard. So not just the fact that they've dumped some code on GitHub, but that teams on the Microsoft product, teams on Microsoft

are really trying hard to cooperate with community, at least most of the teams. And yeah, that's something really exciting, because only with true cooperation, true gains of community-based software, opensource software may come. So it's not enough to just dump code on GitHub

and do your own stuff, but you need to cooperate with community. And Microsoft is trying really hard to do that. Thank you. I think to me it's a sense of relief that now it's opensource. I think that if .NET Core had not been opensource

while Mono was available, I think that it would have continued to be a fringe technology used in a very narrow market, specifically gaming. And that was not a general purpose market. So what is really exciting to me is that it is now opensource,

that we have a community. And one of the projects that we worked on in the past year, which I'm very proud of, is that we just dismantled the .NET Foundation as you know it. It used to be a foundation run entirely by Microsoft people.

Starting in January, we're going to have a foundation that is run like the Graham Foundation. I don't know where we got this idea from. But anybody that contributes to .NET code, documentation, advocacy, helping people, running events,

will be able to become a member of the foundation. And becoming a member of the foundation essentially gives you one vote to name the board of directors. So the board of directors will no longer be appointed by Microsoft. We're going to have a board of directors that decides the future of the foundation and what we do by the community.

And I think that from there, it just goes into what you just said which is we have a lot of people now invigorated and excited about contributing in this open source world. So a big sense of relief that this happened.

I'd like to add to what you said that Microsoft is doing their best and really going all the way, not just like dumping some code somewhere on Git. So for example, we work on packaging for Fedora

and Microsoft is really trying to not just publish binaries on Microsoft website for download which is how it used to be for a long time. But there are engineers working directly with contributors in Fedora to meet the packaging requirements

which are quite tough in Fedora which is for those of you who don't know. You don't just have to build from source on Fedora. You have to build all the things that are used in the build process from source on Fedora. And those are mostly pre-built currently. So there are engineers in Microsoft who are dedicated to this work.

So now I'd like to open it up to questions from the audience. So does anyone have a question? Okay. When are we finally going to rewrite Evolution? When are we finally going to rewrite Evolution in .NET

because that's actually why you started it, right? Well, I have mixed emotions about this.

We now have the infrastructure necessary to build an email client in the form of MailKit and MindKit that one of the early developers of Evolution wrote. So he learned everything that is wrong about mail APIs and he implemented the right ones. Although the problem today with writing an email client from the ground up

is the amount of work that you need to do on filtering garbage. And maybe it's my 47 years of age speaking or 48, 46, I don't know. I'm on that range. But I just use Gmail.

And at work I use Outlook. So yeah, it's just dealing with spam. I just, my life, it's slipping away. So it was an interesting challenge. I didn't realize to what extent the internet would be used by scammers,

grifters, con men, slimy people and it requires a full staff and very few people have the staff to keep up with just how horrific the internet has become.

And sadly, an email client is at the forefront of this. So yes, I would like to, it's just better things to do. Sorry. Okay, next question. Yeah. So I first touched .NET about six years ago

and the more mature .NET developers around me at that time you could definitely tell that the... I was going to try repeating it. Okay, I'll go back to that. So basically I touched .NET first time six years ago. At the time, the other more mature .NET developers

had an expectation that Microsoft would lead the way and any libraries you got, probably half of them you have to pay for. And I've seen the change over that time to where we are now. What are the things you think happened either top down or more bottom up organic that caused us to be in where we are right now? What was the thing that made the change happen?

For what specific thing? So now the expectation is more that compared at the time to the Java ecosystem where you still had a company leading the way but a large fraction of the libraries were community contributed and we're getting to that point now with .NET

where Microsoft is still in some ways leading the way by dissolving itself but what I was getting at is how much has this Microsoft made the decision and they caused this to happen or is it because the community made this happen or some combination?

I don't believe I might have a full picture of how this happened but I can tell you a couple of anecdotes that I saw and I don't think I have the full picture because it's a large project and I cannot keep up with everything that is happening but my reading from the outside was that at the time there was a feeling

among some people that throwing software over the fence and calling it open source could be perceived as we are abandoning the software. So I believe that some people were very concerned that they did not want to give that impression So there are certain people that were influenced by that

There are other people that came from different cultures not necessarily the .NET culture or the open source culture but there are people that started to get into the whole YouTube streaming thing and they started to become very open about talking about what they were doing and the design and I think that nowadays

is a weekly stand up I don't watch this thing but I guess if you're into Twitch and video games you are into this but a lot of people apparently participate in these discussions and rathole about API decisions and that independently of the other concerns kind of took on a life of its own

So I don't know if there was a concerted effort more than different people in the team were given the liberty of trying things out in the open source way and we struggled I proposed mailing list, which I love and I was shut down but other people loved Git and they went with Git some people liked Gitter, they went with Gitter

as a way of engaging I think that the top down mandate is let's make this successful let's engage the community but the tactics I've seen people try many things and some have worked and some haven't but they keep trying and I think that Emo is really into this

So there are some people that are very gung ho or people that are obsessed with GitHub notifications I can't take it it's just too much but there's people that live and die by GitHub notifications I wish I had a better answer but I think it's a lot of different viewpoints

coming together and contributing to that and that's the effect that you see I don't think that it's a very well coordinated from the top down how we will engage and how we will not As a total outsider I'm a member of the community but I don't have anything to do with Microsoft it seems that

it's a natural process in the fact that new people are joining the Microsoft and new people are getting more senior new people are getting to the project manager positions senior project manager positions and so on and those new people that joined the company, default now is open source, it's community

everywhere, no matter from what background they are coming, whether they are joining just after studies, university or from some other ecosystem default is open source everywhere and that kind of probably flows through the company, that would be my wild guess as a total outsider knowing some of the people at Microsoft

Ok, so

in the Mono times I remember that you were trying to push like Mono as a platform for developing like desktop applications for Linux and GNOME and at the time there was part of the open source community that had some pushback because

at the time, Microsoft was not that friendly with open source and I think now we are in this interesting position where now Microsoft is way more friendly and they are open sourcing a lot of things and things have changed but at the same time, I feel like the Mono community got smaller and that link

was lost and in some way, Microsoft is more friendly but also the parts from the community are smaller so how do you think we can just come back and try to push again for .NET and as a good alternative for open source

in this world where there is not a Mono community as strong as it was before Well, that is a traumatic experience

that was a traumatic experience the attacks on Mono the attacks on Mono because it was built on a Microsoft technology at the time got fairly vicious I had not seen anything like that in my life before to give you an idea, we received

there were basically editorials written on a daily basis about how bad this was and calling my morals into question and the morals of everybody in my questions and we did receive a few death threats so I think from my perspective, that was one of my

early touch points with abuse on the internet we kept going because there were people that loved it, there were people that didn't care and and we kept going in particular Unity kept going and the community with Unity didn't

really care it's not even clear to me that it really mattered, I think that it became an ideological fight like the ideological fights that we have over Brexit or we have over the orange men but so I don't think that

at the end of the day it mattered and that is when we created Xamarin my company that did mobile applications we went full of proprietary and what happened is we took .NET, we made our version proprietary and we sold it to a community that was not ideologically bound so once we went

to the mobile world, the abuse stopped I've never been as happy as that day when I abandoned open source because the abuse stopped and I was sick of it I was sick of years of abuse then there was Gamergate years later and it gave me all the flashbacks

of the delightful open source community attacking Mono so yes, Mono did shrink it did shrink and it did shrink because I did not care more to push it towards the Linux desktop or Linux in general and because we were very happy with the mobile developers, mobile developers had the same needs that Linux developers had

they had money they had a problem to solve and they were not ideologically driven so Xamarin succeeded and it's very interesting because when I look at other startups that succeeded to put it into perspective when I look at the revenues of

successful startups Xamarin was making a lot more money than those are than what you think are those so it was a very successful company our run rate was amazing it was just fantastic so those were very very happy years now, part of what makes me very happy that Microsoft opensource.net we got the patent covenant in place is that it eliminated

the complaints that were the root of the abuse some of it still continues people still type micro dollar soft people still think that I'm an undercover Microsoft agent, I do work for Microsoft but it is a conscious thing that we are trying to

restore from a community perspective because we did lose that community and I think that the community that we attract today is mostly a web developer community and the mobile community and we're trying to restore the but you know, it takes time and it's definitely not a priority anymore at least it's not a business priority it's the people in our team

that believe in Linux and open source and want to make it happen so we keep working on those things we contribute to open source constantly and we try to encourage the work in fact I've asked my team to move all of our discussions that are in an open source product away from our internal Slack to Gitter

it's a trick thing because we link Gitter with Slack so we actually keep using Slack internally because it's fantastic but we are engaged with the community so Gitter, Mono Mono Erho, Mono Develop Xamarin, Android Roslin I don't know all those things

we tried to engage with the community but we did kill those links we killed IRC, we killed the mailing list we were unattended for years but it was part of it due to trauma really, it was trauma I would like to also add that I've been also called Microsoft's spy within Red Hat

and stuff like that they're still among us yes

Miguel mentioned that C-sharp now runs on many platforms Windows, Linux, Android, iOS are there any plans on supporting .NET languages on Google's next operating system Fuchsia Fuchsia I'm not sure how it's pronounced I'm not a native speaker

but yeah, Fuchsia I wear two hats I wear two hats I am a Microsoft employee so I'm going to give you the Microsoft answer first no, we have no plans but Microsoft generally will consider platforms

that are important to support right now Fuchsia is not considered a major platform, it's a research OS and if somebody wants to support it, fine we support all kinds of other research OSes like wilderness labs right now has a beautiful mono that boots, you boot into mono in a microcontroller

I mean, we do support things like that now, with my personal Miguel de Casa hat on my spare time I am working on getting mono to run on zircon and I have bindings to zircon zircon sharp and I'm talking to a bunch of Google people that have been

kind enough to help me do that but it's not a Microsoft thing it's a personal thing I do like Fuchsia I do love the design of the kernel I don't know about the rest because I haven't figured it out yet but the kernel is very pretty it's a very interesting design I don't know if it's going to be fast or as good as Linux, but it's interesting

so from a I love to try new things I am trying it out you can go to my github, it's in there the other thing we can do is I could repeat the question or we could repeat the question after the other one

yeah, if it's short enough okay, short short questions everyone yeah, I'll repeat it about the change in the mentality of the community let's say I have a friend in an organization where we have to change the mentality of the middle managers

because they were developers 15 or 20 years ago and that was an era where they don't want to hear about Microsoft and they don't want to sell the idea of using Microsoft technologies particularly for development what do you suggest in this case? so the question is about how we can change

the minds of middle managers to start using these new Microsoft open source technologies I've talked too much if you guys want to take it you can do it, otherwise I can do it but I don't want to I probably earn a lot of money

yeah, you could probably earn a lot of money but I think the key is to start trying to contribute towards changing that let's call it legacy feeling from bottom up so like think about

how you can contribute as an individual so for example if you see a discussion and someone just says that it's Microsoft technology and starts flaming or something don't argue with them just explain the facts it's open source and everything and let them take those facts

that's my take on it anyway let's try so first of all in my experience with middle management it's not only convincing middle managers to use Microsoft stuff but there's also

totally second kind of middle management is to convincing existing C sharp shops to use Microsoft open source stuff because there definitely is huge part of the C sharp dot net ecosystem that will do only the stuff that Microsoft tells them to do so that's

out of the box in visual studio that's the policy MS test instead of the community alternatives entity framework instead of the community alternatives and stuff like that and the response to both types that was just random addition so I can have longer

sentence so answer to both those types is convincing your fellow developers in the team that it's good idea and then if majority all your developers on the team are convinced yes this is good idea this would need to be really bad manager to not consider the fact that oh maybe my developers

are right so yeah that would be my tip I guess there's another question but we can talk later offline so you've all been outside the dot net community outside of Microsoft working on dot net what specific things have changed

in the last say five years that have made your experience outside working with dot net better and how can we repeat it it's self-interest so the question is what changes that have happened in the last five years have made your experience

working with dot net from outside of Microsoft better yeah so definitely the thing I've mentioned earlier so the fact that Microsoft now is open to collaboration

I mean F sharp was always in I speak from the F sharp experience F sharp was always F sharp team was always kinda open to collaboration with the community because it was in this weird place so F sharp on its own had really strong has really strong experience

with the open source so when I started working with F sharp open source was default and in general dot net open source was not default at this point in time and that was really annoying because I've got used to this fact that oh I can just tweet to project manager working on F sharp team and talk with him about

next language version or design or some ID features or whatever or I can go to Don Simon and have beer with him and just discuss whatever is happening in the F sharp community and I couldn't do that with ASP dot net team or whatever other products

that I've used and nowadays what has changed is yeah they are happy to cooperate with the community they are happy to talk with community at least most of the teams so yeah so that's the change and I guess on the most teams there are really like people again I'm outside

but my experience is that many many teams in Microsoft there are people that are super happy to work with the community so just go to them talk with them, email with them tweet with them, whatever and they will be happy that someone is interested, someone is passionate about the product and they will be happy to collaborate with you

I think that the key the piece to me that has been key is really the ascension of Sacha and Adele as the CEO and I'm going to say why I have not been at Microsoft for the whole time

that Sacha has been CEO but we did meet with him, Xamarin and Microsoft when he was the head of the service and tools business and he is the one that triggered the collaboration between two companies at a time when we needed it and he has been always a man that

is very impressive because he listens and is willing to change his mind when he is presented with new data I don't know when this started happening but inside the company he rolled out a set of changes and there is an article on Forbes in the last couple of days

I read it this morning but it's something that is part of everything that we do every time that we do a performance review it's there and it's called the difference between what is called the growth mindset versus the fixed mindset and you can google it it's research from a Stanford professor on how to build better

organizations and just live a better life generally but it comes down to changing your mindset to essentially acknowledging that you don't have all the answers and that when you have a discussion the point of the discussion is not necessarily to win it but to explore the alternatives

a little bit of the scientific method of questioning and trying to find the answer and then sometimes you might learn 5% and the next time that you debate the same thing you learn another 5% but this has been now embedded in the company at least since I've been there since 2016

and it is part of the performance review and some of it includes things like what have you done that has helped another team I don't know if you remember that graph of organizational structures of Microsoft where there were guns pointing at each other so this is what he set out to fix and I think that these principles are good not just there but among our

communities among this horrible dystopian world that we're living in right now and so some of the questions are what have you done to build on somebody else's work, how have you helped somebody else use your work, how have you explained it and then we have a secondary

sort of principles that he introduced and I'm going to mess this up but they're called the leadership principles and they include deliver results and all kinds of things associated with that, generate energy and everything associated with that and create clarity and these points are very important particularly creating clarity

as a manager means that you know that your team understands the objectives and what are the constraints are which means that you as a manager don't need to micromanage, you have a chance to transfer a vision and then the team can execute on their own so all of these principles were things that Satya brought in and

honestly they're principles that should be applied elsewhere that I wish were applied beyond their industry and I'll give you another example that is very clear, in the last few years we've realized that we treat women, minorities, peoples of different colors like shit and they don't have the same opportunities

they don't have the same job opportunities and you know a lot of people say well it's a matter of the pipeline if we don't hire more of food it's because not enough food are applying and no, it's because we're lazy, the reality is we're lazy, we go and we interview kids at Harvard

which means that we select the people that could afford Harvard so a mandate, I don't know if it came from Satya or from Kathy from personnel anyways, there's a massive initiative within the company where we said we're not going to pay lip service to this it is not one of each

individual has an objective to drive some of these principles of diversity and inclusion so while a lot of people are talking and debating externally well what does it mean why are you imposing me this my freedom to do these things

we've moved on, we've acknowledged that this is a problem, we know that it's a problem in the company we go through training for we just had an allied workshop last month in Cambridge and Michaela can tell you more about that, I wish I could tell you about that but I was not available that day I'm scheduled for my trip

on February, but we're doing that and diversity and inclusion exercises I mean, and this is training that you have to take, right, so we're going beyond lip service and we're trying to address those things and I think everybody needs to get there get over your objections to the code of conduct and embrace it

I think you have come from anywhere, but it came top down here since you touched on diversity I just wanted to mention that we can't change the current state of our industry we can change the 90 to 10 ratio

it's not going to change immediately we need to work towards educating our children and giving them equal opportunities so when you're buying Christmas gifts don't just buy Barbies for girls, buy remote control robots and Barbies for girls buy a painting set for the boy that is the way to change

to give the children basically equal opportunities and we are at time we are at time, yep we now have lightning talks, so

how many people have lightning talks? one, okay we could extend the panel a little then okay okay, so since visual studio

is not available on Linux what would you use to write code there? I would recommend Costor's product it's a jet brings rider it's they also created the resharper for visual studio and all kinds of other dot net tools

like dot trace, dot memory and dot whatever it's probably the only big IDE that you could use for dot net languages the only other things that are there like visual studio code which I believe you've been using

in the presentation they're plugin based they used a language server rider is not using language server that's the difference I guess there is also the fully open source top to bottom monodevelop and monodevelop serves as the core

for visual studio for Mac visual studio for Mac takes monodevelop and adds some proprietary extensions but monodevelop is there now that said if you really want to get the visual studio thing with all the visual studio things you should go and complain

on developer community so my management hears about it I would use visual studio code I've heard there is really good IDE for visual studio code called ionite you should try it out

I would also add to it that there are many other IDEs that utilize the same language server so for example eclipse we have a bunch of writers working on that yes

and also atom had some support I don't know to what extent bring binary to visual studio

so the question is what are the reasons that Microsoft would not have binaries for visual studio I'll tell you the reason the reason is when we launch visual studio for Mac while it is a decent IDE for mobile we added some capabilities

but we didn't add every capability so what we are trying to do right now is we are trying to make sure that every capability that we ship is rock solid so the mandate from my boss is that we need to polish this thing until it is perfect

and we have very concrete metrics as to what perfection means in this thing and we are not meeting them yet you just heard May Chin show you the numbers and this is the kind of numbers that she has to report to my boss as well so Julia Luzon who is our boss

she is tough she is tough and wants quality products and doesn't want half-baked products so she is willing no, she is willing to do it provided I do two things I deliver the quality that is needed and all of you are super happy with visual studio for Mac

we have a survey built into the IDE and when the tide turns and people say this is super happy she will let me do it but that's it we need to make this thing perfect and right now we are failing our users on a few dimensions we know what those problems are and we are fixing them

and it is very methodical and I have a preview if you want to see it

back then I said in Istanbul .NET on Linux is probably never going to be a success because a .NET developer needs visual studio but nowadays Microsoft is apparently working

on visual studio for Linux so that opens up a whole lot of opportunities in my opinion it is hard to discuss an opinion I value your opinion and I believe, not only I value your opinion I believe in your opinion

I believe that you are right that said, we have offered a couple of band-aids writer, vs code, monodevelop they are not the same thing but there are options that said as management, once you become manager you are really in the role of you kind of move away or at least that responsible manager like my boss is

you move away from the world of possibility and in limited options it is more like a physics world I have three buckets of water and I have a big pile that I need to fill in what can I do with this so you need to manage your three buckets and it is physics

it is people and time so we need to serialize and rather than having two mediocre products we are going to have a fantastic product and we are going to serialize it and we are going to have a fantastic second product it is her choice I think it is the right choice

and yes it might be a little bit painful for a while but we do have options in the meantime but in the end you are going to be happy that you did not use incomplete stack and you will thank us for that maybe it is going to take me another year but I will get there

I could also add that Visual Studio is not probably the highest of priorities on Linux because you can just write your code from Windows or Mac and then deploy it to Linux servers which is the current most popular use case

or containers