Okay, so we want to talk a little bit about a very important new case that I think everyone here should be concerned about and

The legal case is officially titled love versus the United States Because it's about a British computer scientist and occupied activist called Lori love who you did see in the screen But now it's gone. There you go

who So Jake and I have been friends of Lori for quite a while and at the moment He's facing some very serious allegations from the United States where the FBI is trying to extradite him to face charges under the computer

And under the computer fraud and abuse act where he could potentially be facing up to 99 years in jail He's being accused of essentially taking part in a series of online protests called operation last resort that followed the persecution and death of Aaron Swartz wherein a

Website of the United States Sentencing Commission was hacked and replaced with a home page That allowed visitors to play a game where they could control a missile enabled nyan cat that allowed them to shoot chunks of text of the page and

So so Lori was a longtime friend of iron and in fact I first met Lori in an IRC channel set up by Aaron 15 years ago Lori is currently being pursued by the you to Lori's currently being pursued by the US criminal justice system for for effectively protesting Abuses of the same system and there's protesters in three separate US

Court districts accusing him of hacking into various governmental agencies including NASA the US Army the Federal Reserve and also the Environmental Protection Agency and As a result of all of this Lori was arrested in October 2013 by the National Crime Agency

which is like the UK's equivalent to the FBI and Nine months after that His police bail was allowed to expire and he wasn't charged with anything because the National Crime Agency couldn't find any evidence of What the FBI was accusing him of and of course the FBI wasn't too happy about this because they were quite keen to press charges so

The FBI put in an extrusion request and not just one extrusion requests but three separate extrusion requests from three separate districts and this is actually just one of the ways that The FBI can abuse the justice system in order to coerce defendants to enter a guilty plea Even if they're not even if they're innocent

So Lori's case actually has a pretty interesting political significance here Because his case is essentially a deja vu of another case that happened ten years ago ten years ago The FBI also tried to extract another man called Gary McKinnon. He was accused of hacking NASA So what happened to Gary? He fought an extrusion battle for ten years

and This raised a lot of interesting political questions in Parliament because it revealed that the UK US Extrusion treaty was quite unbalanced as in it's very one-sided to the u.s It's much easier for a British for the u.s. to extract the u.s For the u.s.

to extract a UK person than it is for the UK to extract the u.s. Person and the reason for that is because For the u.s. To put an extrusion request They didn't even have to show any evidence or even present the case Which is pretty insane because you'd think that the basic right to a fair trial includes ability for a defendant to be able to view the case against them so that they can formulate a defense and

The British Parliament also agreed that this was unfair. So they campaigned on behalf of Gary to change the law and Eventually Theresa May which was the home secretary at the time blocked Gary's extradition

On the basis that it would be a human rights violation because Gary Suffered had a long undocumented history of depression anxiety through his whole life and he was also diagnosed with Asperger's So sending him to a US prison instead of UK prison would have been inhumane because essentially it would have

Put him away from his family and the support system that essentially sustains him and like Gary Laurie also has a long undocumented history of depression and is also diagnosed with Asperger's So this case really is a deja vu of a case that happened 10 years ago So after Gary's case the law changed and Theresa May introduced a new piece of legislation called the forum bar and the forum bar was designed to prevent cases like Gary's from happening

Ever again like it is now and it created It essentially allowed the courts to block an extradition on the basis that The case can be heard in the UK and doesn't have to be heard in the US Which is the case as Jake will be talking about in a while because we we were persecuted in the UK

Even though we were accused of hacking into a whole bunch of stuff in the US So there's no reason why Laurie can't be tried in the UK But unfortunately a few weeks ago the magistrates courts in the UK Actually approved Laurie's expedition, but it's not over because

there still and there will still be appeals and This will at least go on for another two years and the reason why They were able to accept it in this case because after the forum bar was introduced the ability for the Home Secretary to

Block an extradition on human rights bases was transferred to the courts instead of the Home Secretary So the Home Secretary no longer has the power to do what she did in Gary's case Now the interesting thing about this case is that the judge in the case actually accepted that Laurie presents us in her own words a severe substantial and high risk of suicide

But she didn't she didn't accept that the US prison systems don't have adequate health care to deal with this Which is ridiculous because the US prison systems are notorious worldwide for the way that they treat people with mental health issues So just as an example Chelsea Manning was in the news a few months ago for her suicide attempt. And what did the prison do?

Did they give her care? No instead they disciplined her and sentenced her to solitary confinement Because she committed she attempted suicide in the UK the exact opposite would happen if you had mental health issues, you would be given more freedoms in your cell and An access to care rather than simply being locked away in solitary confinement

Now there's been a lot of campaigning work done for Laurie by Naomi and the courage foundation Which has been doing some really incredible work and thanks to their work We have 114 members of Parliament on our side who have co-signed a letter to Barack Obama requesting him to Be considered Laurie's extradition

Also Laurie's case was brought up in Parliament during prime minister's question time Which is a pretty great achievement and I'm going to play the video now

Awaits extradition to the United States facing charges of Computer hacking and is then likely to kill himself. It sounds familiar He's not of course Gary McKinnon who was saved by the Prime Minister

But Larry love who faces in effect a death sentence So when the Prime Minister introduced the forum bar to in her words provide greater safeguards for individuals Surely she expects it to protect the vulnerable like Gary McKinnon like Larry love The honourable gentleman my honourable friend obviously campaigned long and hard for Gary McKinnon and obviously I took that decision

Because at that time it was a decision for the home secretary to decide whether there was a human rights case for an individual not to Be extradited we subsequently changed the legal position on that. So this is now a matter for the courts There are certain parameters that the courts look at in terms of the extradition decision and that is then passed to the home secretary

But it is for the courts to determine the human rights aspects of any case that comes forward. It was right I think to introduce the Form bar to make sure that there was that challenge for cases here in the United Kingdom as to whether they should be held

Here in the United Kingdom, but the legal process is very clear and the home secretary is part of that legal process So, yeah, I mean I mean that's pretty much an answer but at least it was both up Now the reason why I'm personally so invested in this case well for a start I believe that it's really important for our community to have solidarity with technologists and activists who are facing injustices, but also

Five years ago. There was a lot less support Organizations supporting whistleblowers and hackers if you are charged with the computer for the abuse act There weren't that many places that you could turn to to get support and there's this case that there's one case

That's really close to my heart that I want everyone to know about because it's been completely forgotten and I think we've completely failed this person So in 2012 an AT&T employee called Lance Moore Committed suicide after he was charged by the FBI for leaking some documents that he had access to from AT&T

And he leaked these documents via anonymous Now despite the fact that there was no hacking involved and he was leaking information that he had access to the FBI charged him for hacking AT&T which sets a pretty bad precedent for whistleblowers leaking information that they already had access to now at that time The solidarity community for hackers and whistleblowers was a lot smaller

The courage foundation didn't exist and there wasn't really like a that No one reached out to him and there was no like natural place for him to reach out to you But what really gets me about this case is that in hindsight he was actually eventually not have been have been found not guilty Because the FBI also persecuted one other person, Weave, for hacking AT&T and

He was eventually acquitted in 2014 because the FBI didn't have a case against him because of technicalities Now the exact same thing probably would have happened to Lance because the details of the case are very similar But sadly he never lived to be able to see this

And sadly Lance Moore was completely forgotten and there's been no mentions and no news articles about him whatsoever And that's why I think it's really important for us to build a loud and visible Solidarity movement for hackers and whistleblowers so that if anyone finds themselves in trouble in the future They will always know that they will have someone to look out for them. I'm gonna hand it over to Naomi from the courage foundation

Who's going to talk a little bit about the importance of Laurie's case You're normally asked to care about hacker prosecution cases because here is Someone who's really great that a really horrible thing is happening to and we it's right and proper that we should care when horrible things are

happening to great people Larry is a great person and everybody who uses encryption in the United Kingdom owes him a debt of gratitude For defeating the National Crime Agency in court earlier this year The NCA were putting forward the novel legal theory that any effectively

No one had a right to property that law enforcement could not then read Which Thanks to Larry was to was toned was turned back and so we avoided a Disaster there victories for privacy rights of vanishingly rare in the UK and that was an important one Solidarity is an unambiguously good thing and

Larry definitely deserves your solidarity, but this case is also more important than you think I Want to explain why everybody in this room should care about Larry's case Not just because it's the right thing to do and you should be generous But because of your out of your self-interest as well There are several grand narratives in the hacker community that come up again and again at Congress

One of those which I think we've heard a lot about in recent years and probably with misplaced optimism in my opinion is that the hacking communities battle with surveillance and for privacy rights and I'm sure a lot of us remember Rob Congripe's talk about a decade ago when he said that we lost the war meaning the war on mass surveillance And I think we're all far too familiar with another war and that is the war on hackers and hacking by law enforcement

That is a war the creative approach to and use of systems is marginalized and pathologized as criminal by governments and law enforcement Agencies and then that word hacker itself is used to mean something cruel and dangerous It's a war that disproportionately affects the new the neurodivergent

So it's a war not just on what people do and not just don't want people think but also how they think I'm afraid to say that I think we're at risk of losing that war too and Larry's case is absolutely pivotal to that If we don't manage to keep Larry in the United Kingdom and a transnational extradition regime is established

That means that all hackers Well anyone who does anything interesting with computers is potentially subject to the laws and penalties of the worst legal regime of the lot Regardless of where they live and that legal regime is of course the United States We all know how bad the criminal justice system is in we all know

That the criminal justice system in the United States is bad. Maybe we forget sometimes just how bad it is The United States has the highest per capita prison prison population in the world and Tonight tens of thousands probably hundreds of thousands of people are spending that, you know their time in solitary confinement Over 90% of defendants in the United States are coerced into pleading guilty with the threat of ridiculous sentences

I'm not I want to sometimes hope we can talk about fair trials when the reality is that a vanishingly small number of people ever receive a trial at all Lowery is almost uniquely facing charges in three separate US court districts

Which amount to a potential sentence of some 99 years? That's 99 years for alleged acts of political speech that pertain to the actions of US prosecutors So US prosecutors are now trying to absolutely crush Larry love It's not subtle the situation the United States is not going away for Larry or for anyone

I find it kind of difficult to imagine a moment We should have been more propitious for reform of the computer fraud and abuse act than Aaron Swartz his death and although the shockwaves are heard were heard across the world and Representations were made in Congress. Nothing happened I think we should write off legal reform in the United States as a possibility in the near term

The CFA as many of us know gives prosecutors extremely wide discretion US prosecutors collect hacker skins as trophies and that's because they're career-making prosecutions And if we do allow transnational jurisdictions in these kind of cases to become a regular thing. Everybody here is

potentially Extradictable to the US on the whim of an American prosecutor who wants to build their career and risks no consequences for making allegations that don't stack up Remember that the US does not have to present any evidence to extra at Lowry The entire court proceeding in Larry's extradition case is taking place on the basis of allegations only no evidence is ever presented

this is a whim based justice system and Even if you thought a whim based justice system was just about okay under a philosopher king like Barack Obama Although if you do think that we might have to have words later How do you think that's going to work under Donald Trump's Department of Justice? I'll just leave that one hanging for a second and as Mustafa explained we've had a close escape with this kind of thing before

Gary McKinnon was the was the test case for the bilateral extradition treaty between the UK and the US and that concluded computer crimes Just because the US was unhappy about you how the UK had handled a couple of hacker prosecutions in the 1990s

That's all it is So after securing the law US prosecutors tried to establish the precedent with Gary They failed but only just and it took a 10-year battle of you know almost unparalleled ferocity to stop it a Subsequent change in the law which I am going to insist on calling Theresa May's forum bar was supposed to prevent cases like this ever

Happening again and it forms the immediate context of Larry Love's legal defense in the United Kingdom But in September at Westminster Magistrates Court, it fell at the first hurdle We're now waiting to to hear whether an appeal will be allowed to go ahead And if it is we can expect that to happen towards the middle of next year

We really need to keep Larry in the UK Because the president whose extradition will not easily be turned back as Brexit Britain is about to find out transnational legal regimes are very hard to turn back once established a new transnational regime about of America's global Jurisdiction over the internet and the regime of criminal law as it pertains to hackers is going to be similarly difficult to extricate ourselves

from if it's allowed to be built and That is why this case is more important than you think and it's outcome has a potential to affect everybody in this room You'll have far-reaching implications, which you are going to find. It's very difficult to reverse in the future So I'm calling on everybody here and everybody who's watching on live stream

So please if not out of solidarity with Larry who incidentally is a wonderful person He should feel solidarity with and he deserves your support If not out of solidarity with Larry Then please just think of yourself and your comrades in your community and please help us save Larry Because if we don't save Larry, we will not be able to save ourselves. Thank you and I'll hand over to Jake

I'm gonna speak just very briefly before we get Larry on himself a little bit about extradition and then a sort of pretentious statement

About how great Larry is So Must have been the first time must have and I met in real life was in the dock of court Having both been arrested for involvement in anonymous and low sec The only reason we're able to sit here today Next to each other is we weren't extradited to the United States even though at one point there was talk of it

We were prosecuted sentenced in the UK Was received two years to spend a prison sentence. I received a two-year prison sentence though if extradition had been sought and It had been successful. I'm sure we'd still be unable to do the things we do today

We'd be locked in a very tiny cell but now we're functional members of society paying taxes and the like And Larry should be able to have the same the opportunity to be to be to be tried in the country in which he lives in which He was arrested in where his loved one lives. So

said pretentious statement about Larry So I do I vividly remember the first time I met Larry love 2014 It was in the middle of the busy London Kings Cross train station and he introduced himself by way of wheeling Into the back of my legs with a giant boombox trolley system that was blasting a reggae jungle playlist

We were meeting as a group of security researchers and ex hackers Some of us knew each other online and we were meeting for the first time in the real world for the previous 12 months between 2013 and 2014 I had been legally banned from speaking to anyone in anonymous Which was difficult to moderate on the basis that everyone and no one is anonymous apparently

So that was a fun year But it was fascinating and terrifying prospect then to meet people in the real world That had that we had just known online Larry Being there. He provided an enthusiasm and an energy that and which was immediately contagious

and I learned that he has the look and Demeanour of someone who's always thinking of the well-being and happiness of others around him and Simultaneously, you may have caught a glimpse of it in the live stream. He has this sort of Subtle glimmer that suggests he's in on a very funny joke that no one else can ever hope to conceive of

but He can also consume pints of beer at a staggeringly impressive rate. You may have seen some of that going down in the stream So we the last time I met Larry The second is it's the second time so I was at this conference two years ago 31 c3 And if you talk to him even briefly, I'm sure you'll remember him in the conversation

He has the ability to effortlessly span so many different genres of information security weaving. He weaves inconceivably fascinating politics philosophy Comedy and complex technical concept into these beautifully crafted and highly memorable Advice and ideas He collaborated with so many people here two years ago that I thought there was there wasn't one but ten Larry's just off in all

Parts of the center dispensing wisdom to everyone absolutely remarkable remarkable person and really brought a sense of joy here And that joy spreading continued And around 3 a.m When he and I must defend several others got lost on the streets of Hamburg trying to find our way back to our hostel

And He inspired us endlessly throughout our stay and it's it's it's depressing to There's such an absurd situation Means he can't be here today With us and what I've what I've learned since then since hanging out with Larry and being around him in so many different types of situation from

You know being completely out of our minds at festivals To sitting down with members of the UK government trying to convince them that our extradition relationship with the u.s. Is flawed and corrupt And we heard from most of his video there

To watching Larry sit in a court dock as prosecutors berated him Sitting making origami beautiful origami as a coping mechanism. I've learned through all of this that Larry is He is Larry

he he has a There we go. This is not printed correctly. It's printed remoteness. It's actually printed backwards How is how have words printed backwards Mustafo is this you like I started reading the next sentence I

Began reading and it's literally backwards. I don't have to read it in reverse Have pink my papers been hacked Oh No That's okay. Well done. Whoever hacked my paper. No, it's fine. It's fine. Look that's fine. That bit's fine. Yeah, just be

Yeah, just read that bit Well, this is it's fine as well Yeah, it's okay. Look look Larry is let's just read it backwards Larry's open honest compassionate He's capable of adapting and making the best of any situation He always always adds value to any project idea or social dynamic and you know

It's it's absurd to remove that talent from society and it's meaningless. It's completely illogical Someone in power needs to just make the extradition request go away and give him a job basically because People like Larry have helped to secure things that most people would be shocked to learn were even vulnerable to begin with

And he is right now this day Helping to make the digital world a safer place for everyone and there's a real irony to it then locking Larry away Genuinely makes it easier for the critical infrastructure of the UK and other countries to be compromised

And it's ridiculous to think that any benefit can come from shipping someone away to a dark room in another country far from their loved ones Mustafo and I Would drag through the legal system for hacking And as I say we now contribute to society to society in our own ways having been dealt with in the UK our own country

No extradition was formally sought for us nor has it for countless other UK hackers and nearly every single one It has been for Larry and that seems to come from a place of vengeance more than justice No, and there are so many people that should be here right now Jeremy Hammond Chelsea Manning Edward Snowden Barrett Brown Larry love of course and many others and these

remarkable officially intelligent people don't deserve to be crammed into some tiny prison cell for years or barred from entering or leaving their own countries and They shouldn't even be here via some dodgy video link But they should be physically here at the conference listening to talks

dancing in the disco lounge till 4 a.m. And sitting with friends and colleagues enjoying a Nice cool crisp club matte So I'd like to on that note Razor club matte to those people and others around the world that are facing the unjust wrath wrath of the US government and it's corrupt

Overreaching intelligence agencies and thank them for being brave and fighting and know that we'll keep fighting for them Thank you, and now we'll go to Larry

So I was just hearing the feedback of myself asking if you could any 20 seconds go that's fine, so There's not a huge amount. I really need to add to that It was really well explained by the stuff that and Jake and Naomi who have been fantastic and their support and especially Naomi and the courage foundation about who I probably would have gone crazy a

while ago So

Say what is this about and Obviously from for my friends and family their loved ones. They don't want to see me Take to a country that I've never been to be locked up probably for the rest of my life I don't I tragically of Violence at my own handle hands of somebody else happens to a lot of people and

For the US it's about making an example I have part of their kind of long-term Persecution of hackers information transparency activists Subversives of all kind, but especially online I

Like not to be an example and better things to you contrary to the world study much for engineering I Do working in photography? security I take an interest in politics take an interesting Civilizations I think

Thousand years it definitely into the future and there's a lot that is done This is not something that we can take for granted And part of having the reason assurance Continue to thrive as a civilization is maintaining a

Few important things One of those is the internet free resource For the mutual betterment of my kind without being dominated by The interests of nation-states over one another or being dominated by

corporate profit making address to the exclusion of communication education And cultural Another thing that we need to ensure is to process To process is What allows us to speak that we can go about what we're doing with?

Freedom and liberty to fight against injustice or just to enjoy the privacy of our own lives without parties being able to Step in because they don't like us for some reason It pays upon our liberty

This is my case As I would express it came at me and take me to be locked away in torture without evidence being shown so The few things that people would like to be able to expect as part of you process and that's when they're arrested

After their arrest they they'll be charged with the crimes for which they were suspected and if not they Would be allowed to go back about their business and have their property in terms in my case. I wasn't charged and I'm still slightly through the courts Property

Numerous efforts were made to compel me to Passwords and cryptographic information despite Principle of jurisprudence

The US has no obligation to make a prima facie case Because of the the one-sided extradition treaty that was Arranged between Tony Blair and George Bush who you may remember from other things that haven't gone so well And it's very concerning in the abstract not just because it's my life

In the abstract now given who is going to be running the administration of the US government for the next four years that somebody can be plucked from this country without a shred of evidence about be able to see and the evidence without being able to contest it only on the basis of

allegations and That there is no seems to be so far in the court process no concern about the other issue of having bail Because I would be considered a fight first place

Continue your life and have access to the information that you need to formulate a defense so in terms of just having any kind of justice Was mentioned earlier like 19 out of 20 people will never have a trial because they'll be made an offer The bargain that's much more attractive than the alternative which is having the charges stacked so that they can in my case make

Which So it's important That we win this case on appeal As possible these systemic issues can be really looked at

Hopefully through the refusal of the section is the precedent to be set You can't just People out that you don't like without having to at least make a case maybe something Consideration can be made to the disproportionality of sentences under the CFA one for non-violent offenses and Maybe said that we we shouldn't be too optimistic about legal for the US in the immediate future

but Shouldn't continue to agitate for it. So if this Refuse because I was a systemic problems with bargaining with the sentencing Regime the the mandatory sentencing guidelines, which allows it the charges to stack up in such a route this way

then it gives some ammunition to the people that either in a distant future if we get out If we See if you've heard anything I said, but I really thank people for taking interest in the case I

I Know that I won't go to the United States simply because I Surrendered the sovereignty over my own life or my autonomy at will

However, the people there trying to take me there Theoretically the number like to use violence, which I would probably race that level and so My options for not suffering that's one team. They become

Actually discuss them because that would be another excuse for the two to lock me up But there will be no direction Afterwards When they appear to go through the process rather than then

Okay

Let's open it up to Q&A's We have about eight microphones in the room. And we also have a lovely signal angel that will be taking questions from the internet

So, please if you have any questions Laurie don't be shy get up to the microphones and speak loud and clear Otherwise, do you have anything from the panel that you want to say in response to what Laura was just saying?

microphone number three, please It's more like I'm not a question with a comment. I mean, I I'm I I kind of understand louder situation because I both have a But I am not yet

Want to be the US government luckily but maybe it will change if we if I am Do some things and we should cover it just like this so

Thank you We have a question from microphone number four, please mostly questions and not so much comments One comment one comment though, it seems that the internet in the UK is still the way it has always been

So Jake Could you could you possibly make a few comments about? Resemblances that what can be applied from your case in Laurie's case? I mean I think it would be very interesting for everybody to know your story as to how much time did you actually do and why and

What from that should Laurie be actually kept in the UK? We're up what from your story can be applied to his case if you know, God help is gonna stay there Yeah, sure. So a very brief timeline of Arrest Twitter release must have and I were both arrested in 2011

They were we were both in banned from the internet for two years as part of police bail very interesting times 2013 we were also we were on home detention with a big electronic tag around our ankles 2013 we were sentenced so the crown court I received a two-year prison sentence though of the amount of time spent on electronic tag

The way we work in the UK is we do half of the time in prison and half of the time on probation Mathematically speaking because of two years on tag I served maybe six or six or seven weeks in a in a prison. I must have received a suspended sentence We then both study a year of probation and that euro is banned from speaking to anyone from anonymous

Currently, we're both still under an order called a serious crime prevention order Which means we can't encrypt our files or delete internet history and a bunch of other little things So when I came to this When we both came to this conference We had to declare that we were getting a flight out and a flight back and that will be enforced until 2018

That all put together sounds pretty ridiculous as a case But it's far saner than anything that would occur if we were sent to the states be far simpler for your center The states we just be put in a cell for a very very long time and it's complicated in the UK it's messy, but a parole system is reasonable our legal system is reasonable and

In terms of similarities with alleged crimes. We were alleged to broken into US government computers as well And it it us and about 20 other cases were dealt with successfully here in a number of ways there's so much

paperwork out there now for judges and prosecutors to make informed decisions that it clearly works better for hackers to be dealt with in their Own country rather than be sent to a jurisdiction that puts them away for decades at a time So there's similarities to draw and at all levels and it's ridiculous that and they've chosen to take this as a vengeful approach

Targets that we were we hacked were pretty much all in the u.s And yet we were still tried in the UK because the evidence was presented in the UK court So I see absolutely no reason why you buy Lori can't be tried in the UK and why the evidence can't be seen in the UK Even most of the evidence in our case

Actually came from the u.s. Mostly from Hector Montague who was a FBI informant the UK UK police officers actually Hopped on a plane to the US and board evidence back in a CD-ROM So I don't see why the irony has to be extradited when all the evidence can be transferred to the UK Question in this case about whether there has been a good faith attempt to prosecute Larry in the UK

That's a big question which still has to be tackled in UK and hopefully We'll get a bit closer towards doing that before the appeal happens. It's probably worth noting that As you've heard Larry's

Maximum potential sentence in the United States is 99 years the equivalent If you were prosecuted in UK is a maximum of about two and a half years of which no one I've spoken to thinks You would actually serve that maximum. So the differential is pretty shocking We have one question from the internet Actually, there are a couple of questions The first one is what are some of the most effective things that hackers can do to resist the mistreatment of hackers

activists So Raising awareness of these cases is incredibly important in particular cases like Lowry's whether is a very knotty

Political national political issue at play then getting in touch with your elected representatives is very useful In Lowry's case actually two things we could do with in Lowry's case We could do with more, you know more influential people coming forward and explaining it You know exactly why extraditing Lowry would be an astonishingly bad idea

Everybody in this audience probably knows at least know somebody who knows somebody who would be useful to speak out about that So get talking to people, you know, the other one is that as was mentioned right at the beginning in the introduction Lowry is not just a British citizen He also holds Finnish citizenship and we could do with a bit of pressure in Finland to get the Finnish government

To say something publicly about Lowry's case probably any would take a little push in my opinion So that those are some concrete things could happen. Oh and one thing I should mention We also have a defense fund for Lowry should God forbid he had done for the United States The costs are going to get very serious very quickly So if you go to free Lowry comm slash donate and send some money would be very appreciated

We have a question from microphone number one, I know you said no more comments, but I have a comment I'm Noah Swartz, I'm Aaron Swartz's brother who was mentioned a lot during this talk

And one of the things that happened during Aaron's prosecution was that the prosecutor Steve Hyman tried very hard to prevent Anyone from raising awareness about Aaron's case or Aaron getting any sort of support from people like us the hacker Community or any other people that knew him

And then after you know He died a lot of people said, you know, like why didn't we do anything? Why didn't people stand up for Aaron when we had the chance? So here you go. You have the chance now to support Laurie Don't waste it. Thank you know everything you've done

We'll take one more question with the internet. We got Laurie back on screen now

Apparently he's too distracting to be put on the screen is what they said Let's keep on the screen. It doesn't matter. This is this is his talk. So he should be on the screen I think he should be on the screen

We'll take one question from the internet if the signal right angel is ready And let's get up to the microphones if you have questions here in the room Yeah Is there anything we can do within the US legal system to stop this or is it essentially up to public pressure or? regulatory the executive to drop the case Yeah, I think there's been a lot of campaigning in the UK

But it really would be really great to see some campaigning in the US I Think it would be quite worthwhile to contact your congressmen and senators about this case because we've had we've had we have our MPs We have about a fifth of our government

Signing a letter to Barack Obama, but we have nothing on the US side So I think it would be really powerful for you for people in the US or politicians in the US To also try and do something because otherwise it will just seem like it's it's the u.s. Is carrying to UK demands Yeah, I would second that we need a lot more noise about this in the United States in my opinion

I think for elsewhere new you of course Finland is a particular case here, but I think an awareness that You know, it's not just hackers in the UK who are indicted in in in the US and Managed managed to stay here This is a situation which happens all across the European Union and one of the dangers of

Lowery's cases that should he be extradited god forbid then it's gonna open the floodgates elsewhere in the EU as well So there really needs to be a proper rear guard action all over the place to stop the u.s. Asserting The extra territorial jurisdiction over these kinds of issues We have more questions from the internet

No more questions. Do any of you have any more questions in the room now is your time to shine come up to the microphones If not, do we have any final comments from the three of you on the panel? Microphone number one. Yeah that just to play You know devil's advocate kind of

So you're saying it's mainly about vengeance the extradition But what about the argument that well, so you said there were 20 cases that were handled without extradition And I'm guessing the sentences were pretty lenient

So maybe from the u.s. Perspective Okay, these guys are hacking into our computers from Europe. Their governments are giving them pretty lenient Sentences because from the government's point of view. I don't want at the political heat of putting some geeky guy in prison who's you know, not some

thug, that's so So when you say lenient I'm lenient in comparison to the US government So when you say lenient you do realize that the US government that you in the US has the harsher sentencing

Most possible. No, no, that's what I'm saying there You're saying oh, maybe the US is concerned that if this you know it becomes the norm that these crimes there is no extradition and the The local governments will also always their incentive will be to give a very lenient

I think they probably do think something along those lines, but on the basis that they think that other sentences are lenient I mean, they're not that lenient Mr. Fanay are under restrictions until 2018 our case began in 2011 as if you face anything up and put anything up against the kind of punishments in the

the u.s. Throughout Chelsea Etc It's the u.s. Security and like what I'm sorry. What what kind of thing did you do? Did you do something that? Hurts us secure. We were alleged to have hurt your skirt here. I'm Indicted in the United States in New York though. No extradition was sought

Yeah, our case is pretty severe like Lori's don't worry Okay, we have one more question from the internet Yeah, someone on the on the IRC tells me Lori wants to say again something Is it possible to give word to him?

Whatever it is. It's gonna be great. I think it's possible if the connectivity wants to play along Lori It fails we could touch it on I'll see and we can there's a five-second delay

Yes, we can hear you please do speak US security would be out by improving the security

That's I

Think I'll ask Naomi from the courage foundation to try and remind us what we could all be doing to help

Lori and also future cases if we get them Sure. So what what can you do to help Larry? If you're in the UK and your MP did not sign the letter to Obama saying that Larry's extradition would be a bad thing and he should be prosecuted in UK then You should you know if there's evidence then you

should certainly write you should certainly write to them and ask them why they haven't signed and if they have sign you should you Should write to them and say thank you for signing and please keep an eye on this as it goes forward Further than that, it's really important to Just make sure that people are aware of this case I think the internet is pretty much aware of this of this case

but there's a whole world beyond the internet some of some of whom you know and some of whom you can speak to in person and that's That's very valuable Beyond beyond the UK as I've said We really need to raise the pressure on this in the United States Having some influential people in the United States coming forward and saying that this is a bad thing that should not be allowed to happen

Would be very would be very useful if you're in Finland and put it then putting pressure on Finnish representatives It would also be super useful and Beyond that there's that there's a defense funds that you know with the defense fund We've been able to make sure that Lowry had the maximum number of expert witnesses possible at its extradition hearing and as we go further the cost implications could be quite

Serious, so that makes a massive difference Just keep an eye on what is going on, you know, follow the courage foundation follow follow Lowry's Twitter and Um Yeah, I imagine that there'll be further concrete things to do as we move on into the next year

Good, and we have a couple of more final questions Comments. Well one last thing if you want to talk to Laurie and we're gonna be hosting a one-hour Q&A session In the tea house on the fourth floor The live stream will continue Yes, and Just wanted to thank everyone here and on the internet for supporting

Larry and many cases in our case back in 2011 means we can be here today and talk about Larry's case and we should move that forward and we should all harness that power And take the lessons we've learned so that the best outcome can be had for for Larry

Well, thank you very much for being here and thank you very much for a great panel And I think we should have one more round of applause also for the people That have been fighting very hard for you to to be able to be here