Represent! Defcon Groups, Hackerspaces, and You.

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Represent! Defcon Groups, Hackerspaces, and You.
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Fabricating, circumventing, forging, partying, milling, crafting, building breaking - Defcon Groups have risen, fallen, and endured the last 8 years as decentralized and smoldering embers of the local hacker think-tank. This year Defcon sets out to stoke that fire and unite our groups, at and outside of the conference. The talk will consist of a panel of Defcon Groups leaders, uncovering the secrets and follies of several groups: what makes them work, when do they fail, and ultimately .. WTF have these people been doing all this time? Come hear how hackerspaces have influenced these local groups and the cool ways that these groups are propping the hackerspace. What can you break? Anch (DC503) - currently rebooting DC503 after it's near death experience, is a part of the unique hacking scene that is Portland. blakdayz (DC225) - can pwn sh1t from space, master of a harem, original gangster @ Defcon Voicebridge Anarchy Angel & ngharo (DC414) - Brew city nerds coming together under the dc414 flag to hack the planet Itzik Kotler (DC9723) - is killing time till the feds arrive. Meanwhile, he is the CTO of Security Art and co-founder of DC9723. In his former life, he was a Software Engineer. People change. Now, I'm a lamp. Jake "GenericSuperhero" - Representing Black Lodge Research. Hardware, Software, Wetware, Anywhere, Everywhere. converge DCG Coordinator, hermit champion of email harassment and slayer of dead hacker groups; you'll probably see his beard wandering the Defcon landscape in search of booze and fun
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I'm going to turn this over to converge who's the DC jee main point of contact for all of us he's going to go through a little bit of a history I'm gonna try to keep up up up with him on the slides so we'll see I'm not really a good public speaker so if you could be a little bit less public I think it'll work out better DEFCON groups is kind of an interesting thing it it was an idea that started back on the forums back in i think around 2000 late 2002 and it was
formalized as an idea that was presented
at DEFCON 11 back in two thousand three it's something that everyone thought was cool and initially we had what 1013 a good bunch of groups that had formed up I was one of the pox that started a
group back in DC 207 back in Maine and I found are you manners right on right on
and proceeded to find absolutely no one in Maine that was a hacker yeah so the
goal was personally to find a group of people that I could meld with sit down work on projects with and just have a really good time and that didn't happen so I set off personally on my own venture across the country and found myself in portland oregon where i did
find a bunch of hackers and we do we have 503 in the house how many five by three years we have in here is one i know there's at least two of us and in portland we had a pretty decent group that met and you know freaked out people at the coffee shop that we were at while we were drilling holes and shit and whatnot but it kind of ebbed and flowed people got busy people worked people have you know personal lives and I worked I had personal life ish so I moved up to Seattle and I've been a part of the Seattle crew for I don't know a few
years now and the groups the groups have existed for that time and have really been doing things autonomously but the question has always been what are the other groups actually doing and it's still a question what the heck are the groups actually doing so around the time I was starting to ask that question I was starting to realize and many other folks were starting to realize that the DEF CON groups coordinator was ni?a which is kind of a problem if you're trying to coordinate something and the person who's doing it isn't there and things go quiet so groups aren't able to make updates groups aren't able to say
hey we're out here groups that disappear just disappear and the list of groups that we had complete went completely out of sorts when I took it on there were over a hundred and seventy groups afterwards I think we're down to about 90 out of the hundred seventy over a hundred of them just didn't respond they were just enacted so the 90 groups that we have now are strong they're on a
big-ass email list that I nice big spreadsheet that I keep track of but the question still remains now that we know who's out there what do we do and I think that's that's where the panel steps in today
okay so we've got a group of point of contacts up here that are pretty diverse I manch and point of contact for DC 503 at a Portland Oregon right now our membership is three but we died back in two thousand seven we're starting to grow again so we're starting to kind of ramp things back up again we meet at a hackerspace is pretty cool as I call your name kind of raise your hands so people know who you are black he's DC 225 word so an archangel and in G haro their DC 414 represent we've got Isaac and Ian for dc9 723 versa we've got generic superhero and Londo from the Black Lodge oh yeah yeah we've got Romer from the Anna located space drink motherfucker and we've got converge is the DEF CON group keymaster yeah with that kind of how we're going to we're going to run this panel it's going to be an open kind of discussion is you know we're going to talk a little bit about how groups operate what we're doing to kind of get them to grow house how hackerspaces work we want you guys to participate too so I'm going to start off the discussion by asking these guys a couple questions and they'll go ahead and talk about what they want to talk about an answer and banter back and forth and if you guys have questions please come up use the microphone ask a question and we'll just kind of keep this as a rolling discussion all right here we go oh yeah and these will play pictures of the various groups that we have up here as it goes so I think I'm gonna start with Isaac so you guys recently did an event called a hackathon you guys tell us a little bit about what you did and how it's helped your group and a little bit about your group as well yeah sure so DC our DC is actually DC Israel and we just started easy Tobey
yeah and we just like started like seven months ago and we had a lot of people coming and showing interest but we couldn't figure how committed they are to the process basically what we're doing or our monkey meetings mostly come have some lectures volunteers people talking mingle and go home but we want more we wanted to actually to form a real community with real people that willing to do more than just come sit and learn or say a question here and there so the hackathon idea is basically have people together hanged out in a place to do a project so there is like a predefined project everybody can suggest any idea and the thing is to find
another person was the same interest whether it's hardware hacking software hacking or out of the box hacking and just stick together and induce something and try to push forward try to find the time to do it and then perhaps having a follow up in our def con meetings talk about it raise more people to the project and etc so the first event that we had was two months ago it was five hours it was a great success we had seven projects different projects having from mobile botnet up to hardware hacking and etc and now we're going to do another hackathon it's going to be a 24-hour event and we really excited about it and we have a lot of people coming up and we try and do more projects and hopefully this time we will have some open source project announced and have something with an repository so that will actually be a real step forward thank you all right Romer it's your turn I know you like to hear yourself talk can you tell us how how unallocated space the hackerspace it that you and how their models a little bit different than some others yeah one of the things that we've done it an allocated is we actually don't have anything that's a member there's no such thing as being a member of unallocated there's no such thing as the required dues and unallocated our thought process is if we have content that people are
actually going to want to come and see and we pack our schedule there's something on the schedule at least three to four days a week and usually more than that and we want to see if fought being if we've got all this stuff going on people are actually going to come there and participate and then want to actually donate money to the space to keep it going as I mean we're a relatively young actor space we've only been around for less than a year at this point nine months exactly yeah and so from that standpoint even though we've not required anyone to pay us we've never had any problem meeting rent we've never had any problem paying the bills people are actually coming in and saying this is so cool i actually want to give you money to help keep this thing running so it's a little bit different model from what some of the other spaces are doing and something we're trying to see if it's actually going to end up being a viable way to do these things so to play devil's advocate on that how do you pay the bills well I think we don't have numbers but we do have key holders there there there are six key holders now at 55 key holders right now that basically they've pledged that if something goes wrong and we can't get enough donations to keep the space going they're going to pay for it hasn't come to that yet but hopefully it never will but yeah that's how we keep it going at this point is if we like this week obviously every member every person from an allocated is here so we're not going to be getting any outside donations so it's one of those things where we may run into a problem we'll see to kind of
roamers point2 when we started our space we kind of did the same thing we had a dedicated set of you members that if things went sideways we would just pick up and make sure it still happened so we would be there the next month and and kind it make it work and then we grew out of that model eventually but it was what kept us going and moved us to the next step and I mean you guys probably saw
the same thing than if you if you're sitting there and you're putting you know as much content as you can out there we get people that we have no idea how even heard about these things that show up I mean you want me to keep all of that or you want to go do something I was happy when I want to start sounds good I mean like one of the things we were actually just talking about outside when we were smoking is we do a lot of stuff through Twitter we just you know
I'll say hey I want to do something let's go to unallocated and do it and people that live in our area below up an example being I got a free AT&T microcell a while back and I have excellent AT&T service in my house so I had no reason to use it so I just threw on Twitter anybody want to hack this thing and see what we can do with it like 25 people showed up to play with it that night one of the really cool things was as I'm coming over to unallocated that night I've just doing a little bit of quick research and I realized that it has a hardware Killswitch in it so if we opened the case it was basically going to wipe the firmware but one of the guys that had sold by Twitter post said I'm one of the participants in the tamper evident contest at DEFCON i can get it open for you and he did so you know i mean stuff like that that should really spur the moment and really you know different and cool and we had no idea what we were doing I didn't have any clue how we were going to start so when we all showed up was just hey who wants to do things we should start with looking at the network traffic so we plugged it in and activated and everything and just went from there and you know we made some progress we didn't get as far as we wanted to yet but yeah I think those kind of activities that are a little bit different from the hey it's lock-picking night are kind of cool for the spaces to have yeah our scheduled events for ours eventually kind of picked up over time it wasn't really the it was something we initially kind of drew for but it was kind of the weird stuff that happened at hockley where we're all sitting on IRC like let's go build something real quick and we end up building something just really
random or we end up sitting at the space and going
we're here we've got some new gear at coming in you guys want to come over and mess with it also to in effect with our
hacker space it's kind of uniquely tied to the DC group or as we kind of host it
and keep it at our space once a month once twice a month we do some events there and we've had random projects kind of just spur out of that we participated in the Red Bull challenge and that kind of happened just out of one of those meetings just all of us kind of made a team real quick and then all of a sudden that became something that we worked on and that space was the place that we hosted it so just something kind of add with that yet we wanted to do the Red Bull challenge and you would think since you know Brian Clark the guy that designed your badges and you know is pretty decent with electronics is one of the people that come to allocate it quite often you would think we would have been able to get something together to get in that we failed hard yeah all right hey black yeah can you tell us a little about your thoughts on group cohesion own you guys have been really successful with that we give us some pointers yes so like going going forward trying to keep together there's been a lot of issues with groups that fall apart I mean if you only meet once a month and an individual mrs. let's say that one Tuesday then they're really going to have less of a of an incentive to show up again the following month I mean there'll be two months behind it's real easy to fall off the map so what we've done is we've included social events outside of the ramifications of your typical infosec sort of sought style you know entries like for instance we do trivia as DC t25 on Tuesday nights and the local bar and we'll have turnouts as high as up to 30 people that may not be directly connected with the hackerspace or the group but I playing as a team being up front putting out that sort of advertisement helps gain members people who know nothing about Def Con I know Riddler came up to us one night as we were playing trivia and said hey do you guys actually go to DEFCON ever hiked yeah yeah have a seat you know and and we have that Tuesday night well we get together on Saturdays and then we do the infosec stuff then we have the regular meets we meet roughly about I'd say three to five times month just keeping it going no specific projects like we get together kind of figure out what the hell we're going to do we're going to smash a stack or we're going to build something play with an Arduino you know just just sit around and kind of come up with stuff but ultimately i think i think the infosec box that hackerspace has put themselves in limits their ability to bring a point to bring about the true meaning of hacking to the community like we're not just here to make a good work KITT although we do we make finery kids we're here to make our community a better place if we want to get together and you know feed the hungry on a Saturday to do some community outreach that not only establishes us in the community drives participation but it also promotes group cohesion so there there are things that are side channels to your main purpose that help support you perpetuate you and gained momentum in your cause you know it's it's one of those things that you really have to look for not everybody's going to have the same interests and you know that ad hoc style that a Black Lodge does is great and and that fits into the mold of kind of what we do that that's that you know everybody gets together and says hey you know what inefficiencies can we remove today from our lives from our communities from this box how can we open it without it wiping the firmware it's a challenge you know across all facets of life so we kind of extend the the meaning of hacking to outside of the traditional ramifications and keeping with that mit-trained club-style definition of hacking and applying that to your life and community really enhances the impact that we have as hackers it gives us not only a positive image in the media which we're fighting negative images every day but we actually make real differences and with that you know I think other groups have have somewhat blockage I know for a fact has as a amount of ad hoc style get-togethers and they support 206 but they're not necessarily 206 the core members of 225 we have Tim members here the stuff con but there we have 59 members total you know you have to have those perpetual members those people who are key holders as people who are drivers there's people who continually impact the group and their environment every day that they exist you have to be gung-ho for it and you can't you can't sit and be introverted and you know break the ice destroy every Saturday you know it's one of those things that you really have to look forward to if you're trying to get a group started or you're dealing with those first lolz and participation or group management if you can have an outside event something that is completely not infosec related to go he's the group in between those times you meet you really move forward that's really how you get it I think that's an awesome point I mean we do a ton of nylon security-related non hacking related stuff crypto stand up for a second kryptos is one of the key holders and allocated if you look at the back of a shirt it's teach learn party we put party right on there and key home for you yeah but it's one of the things we do a lot of parties cryptos organizes a land party once monthly or twice monthly now once a month and basically he throws out to the mailing list hey what games you want to play he sets the whole thing up yeah we're not doing anything except for playing games and drinking beer those nights okay I mean it's one of those things that it brings a lot of people in that would I don't understand about hacking but I know how to play the shit out of some half life I mean they'll sit down and they'll come and actually start to talk the conversations continue and they're like oh that's something I'd be interested in and it does bring new people that's a great point so black when you were talking trivia are you just talking like Trivial Pursuit or Nexus like rather than most implementations of trivia and this is an aside we don't do the digital sort of hooters version play with the little device either that would kind of be fun to target we play animash trivia is what it's called rat trivia where a human sits up front and we play against all the groups in this bar and what it does is it really gives a personalized level to a gainful knowledge perspective who can think on their feet you know hacking is not about a razor like knowledge about something it's a general understanding of how the system works knowing how to manipulate it is the next step for instance Riddler just you know one day set out and said you know what the fuck is this smashing the stack stuff you know what is this assembly and he added pointing out a target and I think we sat at my house and and like he SAT annotated the assembly and you know we were just drinking beer bullshitting I think we just got together to drink beer and you know it ended up with him having a fairly good understanding of assembly all the stock works you know and he went into it not knowing really anything about a very intimidating subject to somebody and he came out of it as an individual I think he's reading an ID a pro book right now as I talk way to go no but but it yeah it emits the fuck away motherfucker well known those community events are kind of what's necessary to that are outside the standard like okay but we do do pen test days where we invite people over to to build a box in and smash the crap out of it one of our members here done and you actually built one of a one of the nice BM servers for us to attack but one of our other events that's really fun is that we have someone over here named lease who organizes a gaming night where it's all retro arcade so one floor is one floor of our hacker spaces a retro arcade and downstairs is a different set of games and and it's just kind of cool to get everyone together and do that but I think when you were talking a couple of points came to mine in terms of hackerspace formation now for a couple of years now we've had talks where we had hacker spaces and kind of what people have done with their hacker spaces and the the basic cookie cutter template and then have you guys felt the need to have to start that way or have you or for the hacker spaces and groups that are new have you felt the need to kind of fit that mold or did you just kind of do it randomly when you approached it yes like for instance um wait a second I want to interrupt you because I wouldn't get a chance for an archangel Angie haro to speak because that's a great question for the dancer huh then you can answer well actually to expand a little bit of one he said we also try we have planning we have to expand a little bit of what he said we also have planned events but um I through research and just getting online I was able to find there were lots of other social and community groups that's our I guess you could call tech related on we have a linux user group in milwaukee those are uh regular reddit readings and there's mill sec meetings all different kinds of meetings and I kind of encourage our members to hijack those meetings if they can you know just go there and represent DC for 14 and that keeps us together that way we get outside of our you know outside of our usual mold and kind of go out there and park it up a little bit with the with the other groups arm but yeah we kind of went for a randomized well beaten we're pretty small we get like maybe eight to ten regular members right now and we're only about six months old after its kind of died out but to get it going it's it's not difficult i mean all you know as black said you need to be their persistence is the key you know our first like three meetings were the only guys there so yeah so I mean you just show up at the place you get the word out you get your communication channels open you know IRC HTTP mailing list social networking and all that and people will find you and I know Vlad was just searching you know he's in the security business he's attending Def Con this year so he Google's Def Con Milwaukee and you know it finds her site then he shows up and you know he's a great asset and you just got to know you know you find these really smart guys and you find those core members and you recognize their skills and you just kind of start brainstorming from there and everything starts to grow yeah i also found it's it's it's good to try to cater to their skills like um we've had a guy who is strictly a java program or so I personally went out and tried to find is you know educate myself as much on job as I could so that he would um you know feel more at home when he came to meetings um we have a guy who's a locksmith genius i mean the guy is just unbelievable and i went beyond that and trying to learn as much about it as I could so that I would be able to converse with him and keep him interested in the group it's more than just you know doing what you want to do you have to realize that the group is carried on the backs of your members you know so you definitely have to try to keep them as happy as possible least I have found that yeah you got to come up to the mic so um yeah I just wanted to say something all the Twitty outreach thing is we're fairly new DC cho selling we just kinda restarted out back in October we're a long way from a hackerspace but one of these you're looking at is that pullin is really strong art community there's a lot of industrial artists that don't have spaces so we're actually looking at getting space from a studio that already has this type of you know setup where it's a big open space or something like that where we guys should bring some of the industrial artists into it who need access to machines and other things that they may not have access to you know people like doing metal smithing and their bedrooms or something like that sorry to know if you guys double down at all either or try to get into something completely not related to technology Oh completely to add to that we have one of our members who actually studies lapidary which is watchmaking has a whole bench that's just completely made just for that and it has nothing to do with it he kind of makes them cool steampunk watches and jewelry and stuff like that it's kind of neat yeah so I'll go do that with that going back to via what you had asked earlier about the template in sort of hack space a lot of a lot of people have this idea that they have to go get these laser etching laser cutters just like this shopping list when in reality they only need whatever they need to achieve their purpose if you really want to make three or three badges sure you need a CNC machine you need some laser at yours you know you need to get through the steps but you procure those as you need them going with your artist question real quick you know I really don't have much to say about the artistry thing that I can give you an analog for instance we like to break into things and so our idea is we have about one and a half million dollars with the hardware that was donated to us through a corporation and we're going to create an elastic computing environment where members of our def con group and others connected to our dark net can make a request saying look I need an XP sp3 machine with these patches in order to break maybe these groups don't have those resources but maybe we can offer those resources to give the sort of elasticity to the groups to be able to provide those machines if you have a CNC machine and there's another group that says man I need to cut this or do this maybe you can lease space to them make these resources known to other groups we are much greater than just the sum of our parts when we communicate we achieve way more and and remember that you know it's something that's the point here is hackers aren't the people you read about that the people you drink with you know that that is the pure point of all of this and and with that I'll go ahead and defer to the guy with the bike merge one real quick question would any of your groups be interested in resources like that anyone I was going to ask how many that's easy how many groupon in contacts do we have in the room right now I'm 12 cool III think is a takeaway item to add to that kind of sentiment as as hackerspace and group owners I know a lot of us are and members we need to do a better job of kind of maybe reaching out to those other hackerspaces and groups and creating those connections whatever they may be maybe it's a cool dark net between hacker spaces where you're sharing data creating these cool little local networks for yourself or maybe it's that you're in the same city in one shop has a laser cutter and can work out a situation where you're working with that group to share those resources we should be pulling those resources where and how we can yeah and to add that I would say don't be afraid to go outside of the technical realm you know um try to find other area groups that just have the same sort of mentality or main goals that outside of the computer security like we've sought out the candlelight collective in our area which is um i guess i would say a space for punk rockers to hang out at but they basically have the same you know after the man feel that our group has to it so we communicate with them even though they're not they're completely outside of the security Rowell there's a lot of talk about a shared resources locking this smash thing which is cool i love doing it too but there's a fine line when you have resources about being a legitimate organization and lives of you know the public and still doing cool security resources guy security research whatever you want to do how do you walk that line how do you manage it how do you manage your risk for that yes so like let's say we had a dark net between every single Def Con group here and the auspice that someone can exfiltrate data through that dark net on a viable production target that would violate mall definitely is a consideration and a concern so while we may espouse the ideas that yes we do need to connect we definitely have the fine details of the allocation of resources and and what type of rules that we can apply for that I will refer to the eff further comment but if you have anything regarding like you know consider this a call for papers if you have an idea if you have a mitigation of that risk in mind please respond to it I know there's a question and answer after this I'm sorry I won't be able to be part of but do not do not you know stop from emailing the list what they hey here's how we do it ideally we trust one another I mean you know we can have two networks one for the communication of viable resources attack resources and others and we can have a high jinks network that has no public access available and yeah I mean what the risk of worrying about sound with exclusivity or anything I mean it would be very easy for like us and you know Black Lodge to work together because the members of your place and our folks we've known each other for years so that we can start to build those personal relationships in the network that way to you know I mean it's not as quick but it's definitely something that can be done with okay I absolutely no Londo is not going to do anything to screw me over so we can work with them on this right but it's not now we can trust every single member that we write out because that trust is built up over time so I mean it's just something you have to I think deferring to the eff on that one in different a common sense is another thing yeah I mean tour has a great implementation for exit mode protection I don't know if you've ever run an exit made from tour beje get that's nifty little email from eff saying while people may be doing illegal things through your client to that machine needs to be sandboxed outside of an accessible area of your network no one has ever been prosecuted for running at or exit mode and keep that in mind at all times that that is the number one reason why you should all get a mohawk and donate to the eff yeah i mean like to be realistic with it this is why we donate to the eff because we have real risks that directly affect the implementation of a cohesive DEFCON group organization as well as a community as a whole we do have ways to mitigate that so I mean mind you money is one way you can share support of it and building on trusted relationships is definitely another I think it's important to note that while we want to mitigate the risk you shouldn't be doing it through a whole bunch of legalese in your membership documents and there's some hacker spaces like to put in clauses and your membership so that like day of big own everything you do in there or you're not allowed to do illegal hacking so don't don't put it out a leash on the people in your organization just because you want to mitigate a little bit of your risk and you have resources like the eff I just felt like it was important to know but on the other hand the hacker spaces tend to run as small organizations and in some ways to get nonprofit status actually form formal organizations and because of that they need bylaws they need to be concerned with legality and have you guys addressed that at all well once once you once you move past a certain size where it's not the little group club anymore and you can you move past the kind of eight members and and you start to get real businesses that you're renting space from and now you're inviting more people from the community who may not be a part of your space or may not be a part of your regular group of friends you need to consider yourself a business and start to treat things a certain way so it gets a little sketchy of course you can definitely overdo it we went a little overboard at first and then we back down a little bit to what seems to be the right level it just it's a tricky thing you have to you have to look at it and you know honestly small business courses really help in that so if you've never taken one of those it doesn't hurt well you can when it comes to lodge rather hackerspace rules and obligations and legalese that's getting in the way you can always protest and vote by not attending I mean hacker spaces that are collaborative efforts between groups or within groups we're not dickbags usable this well yeah okay I'm not speaking for us not everybody but yeah when people like coming to a group that they feel the support network for that they feel is expanding their knowledge and giving them a free and open space to work if you're blocking every all your shit down and people don't want to come to share ideas they just want to come to leech I mean you know you can have a group that will go on with three members and those three guys will keep paying their dues and no one wants to go and hang out with the dickbag clan then and then those those people everybody that wants to create a collaborative like an open space there's nothing stopping you from starting another hacker space along those lines you really don't want to fragment your hacker seen too much in your local area but there's nothing stopping you from having multiple deficit under I mean look at our spaces you got to always avoid the drama llama but you know people that are holding back you know the sharing of knowledge definitely need to be shut shut down in my mind but I mean there's also not just in the group that you belong to or the group that you're thinking about doing there's other groups that were up here if we can have more of a global you know connected collaborative sharing of ideas and the reason we're having a panel you know give you the thoughts to to go out and spread and mutate and make your maker cool shit in no time oks take some questions we get some wind I just as a quick comment to that there are you know a number of lawyers who attend Def Con every year and if you get to the point where it matters you know talk to the group's I know a couple of them some other people here you know just go through the network you'll find somebody but a lot of the time you know you get nonprofit status don't sweat it it's you know you're a disconnected entity that it's the group it's not you unless you're the I went messed up somebody system you know like and in this will vary state to state but in the state of Maine if I'm volunteering for somebody you know I'm like I volunteered a railroad museum every now and then if I'm driving the Train the thing jumps off the tracks and you know 20 people die is a volunteer in that capacity I can't be civilly soon yeah they're definitely there are there are a lot of different state protections when you're in the nonprofit world as opposed to being google so you know if you're concerned about it speak to a lawyer but you should have to have your members signing like to page three page fifteen page documents it's you've gone the wrong way if you get there I agree if you have legalese to limit your liability as a group to an individual's action you definitely have segmented yourself from the path you should have taken the way federal walls work are a little bit different and if people talk to state to state you know we're talking about more or less interstate communications so when you look to the federal walls they're more reactionary so if you do have a non-profit that's associated you know in performing a function and an individual acts baddeley the group is not going to be liable but ultimately you should honestly defer to the eff the same weight or exit nodes are operated would directly affect the way your exit moves are operated within your own VPN that that law is the same I'm not a lawyer like I said you should ask the eff and I agree completely with this point of if you have a disclaimer that reiterates federal law you're going the wrong way but if it's your Bibles saying dude if you act an ass you're going to get kicked out well I mean that's appropriate you know but like you should even have to write those if you have to write those you're still doing it wrong sir from the community aspect I'm with I three Detroit founding member and we've had a really positive experience with the High School Robotics clubs especially with high schools continuing shrinking budgets and we actually unfortunately one of them completely lost their funding have you guys had good experiences with bringing in high schoolers and we've been running for about two years now and it's really awesome that we're now seeing this generation of high schoolers who are now 18 you know going off to college and coming back in the summer and they're our next generation of membership so rather than being a dick to the little kids like it's really benefiting us to just basically deal with a couple of broken drill bits here and there and you know I we deal with that was me we deal with that with members that aren't in high school that yeah ya know specifically on your point I think we should shove it down even lower Def Con kids point right I have a ten-year-old daughter sparkle she created the first Def Con kids group dct 25 kids she kids in Ruby JavaScript PHP my sequel she enjoys social engineering she writes RPGs and if she is 10 she participates on the MIT scratch forms as part of the ID the IDE open-source development project the premises really who the fuck cares if they break something it's nothing you can't fix or replace what we have to do is train the generation coming up listen we don't naturally perpetuate I mean this this is not something that goes on I mean you know without being pushed forget high scores I want Lego Mindstorm kits in the kindergarten classrooms I mean we're not playing here I mean we have generations of kids that are going to be growing up in an ever-evolving environment of threats of areas that they can create and we have to propagate those interests from the get-go we have to we have to actually inform them sit down take the time and say okay let's play with this Arduino board let's turn a motor let me show you how this operates let me show you how this I mean you know whatever the kid is whatever the method is you cannot be afraid to show children and to show the earlier generations how to protect themselves how to build and how to create if we deny that I know a lot of people have diverse opinions on DEFCON kids but if we deny the ability of our own generations at their prime points with their aptitude set on hacking or evolving a you know our community then we are doing ourselves a disservice and and as much as people don't like kids running around def con I mean it is our social scene you know you have to remember that they're already kid games you know they're already kids who not a social engineer and if you if you have kids I would rather your kid know how to detect someone's social engineering them to be victim or subject to it and it goes along the lines this is what we are here for plain lesson plus you can't you can't not the feeling you get when you teach someone like like kids and stuff like that how to lock pick for the first time and you see their face when they bust open that lock and then you look at the person who's in their 20s and 30s next I'm sitting there frustrated like they can't even believe what just happened next to them and you see their parents absolutely in fear of what you guys did but but it's really it's also very cool to to to you know teach people who haven't seen all this stuff my failures and and my mistakes and go hey look this this is this is how you can do it a different way and guess what I learned from it so it's kind of it's somewhat selfish in that respect but it's a good kind of selfish even if you're you know just doing something stupid like showing a kid how to punch out you know funky town or mario brothers on DTMF tones you can teach them DTMF just teach them how to solder it and then that way you have free labor when you need a giant LED matrix system it's really nice and I I would agree that I'm giving the younger generation involved is really important but as far as schools goals I don't know if it's just me but I happen to get chased off of every school I go to entire to talk some about deaf college maybe I'm just ugly I don't know but I've got bad experience school or I guess government institutions in general when it comes to DC for 14 so it's the mustache hey it might be as the stash it it scares people I guess can you repeat that because he couldn't understand you we it's hard to hear up here three verbs pretty badly so he who what black tell me would tell much of who you want to repeat what ya energy angel yeah the guy leaning back who just spoke hey what was um speak this way we can't hear you wrong ah Reever basically what i was saying was I'm I've had bad experiences with going to schools about them getting the word out about DC throwing for I wasn't sure if it was just because I was ugly or my mustache but I get right on from all the schools I've ever been to to try to talk about getting kids to come to DC for 14 um it's just I don't know if it's if it's our area maybe other people in other states have had better success but um just in our schools they they hear the word hacker in I don't know it turns them off or even computer security seems to people are in least in our state are timid around it I don't know why but well there's there there's some balance that you have to have because lodge would you have some like 21 enough we have some adult oriented events or you know with the issue of kids you need to rephrase that a little bit well what yeah when events with alcohol versus events for no alcohol is there yeah what we have we have you know open space for people to come by and check out the place during normal operation hours you know we do barbecues almost every weekend you know people can come out and enjoy talk about you know projects are working at home maybe something they want to get the group involved with and get community effort but also we have you know private stuff and it is private like after our movie nights where there's drinking involved old we took a page out of the book that 23 be guys where we have the projector on the the other block of buildings in the industrial space so we're also parking lot but there's there's this balance that you have to have between you know there is there are some stuff that's going to go on that isn't kid-friendly or have have something that granted you know there's a lot to say about how you're going to present yourself to adults versus how you're going to present yourself or what options you're going to present the kids it's mainly about education I mean if the public knew exactly what hacking actually originated as and if you exhibited those ideals and your day to day above board activities under your group label we wouldn't be fighting much of the way that we're fighting the wars we are now in the media the issue comes when we begin to label private activities amongst groups of individuals that would normally gather under your group flag outside of the group maybe those things don't need to be puddle of our page of the American press you know you have to continue if how can someone dislike your hacking group when you're feeding the hungry I mean yeah so buckeye we're actually running at a time here so I'm going to kind of wrap yep I'm sorry I don't mean to interrupt you but all right we're going to have a Q&A session right after this so you guys want to join us I have one question to wrap up because I asked how many point of contacts we had in here for converging to put you on the spot what can we do as group point of contacts to help you as the coordinator well moving forward we're going to be adding a lot probably the card of the problem that we've had with all of the groups currently well aside from not knowing where they are who they are is communication like we really don't have a dialogue going on between the groups and we're going to fix that so we're going to be firing up Twitter accounts Google+ accounts Facebook accounts we're going to be setting up an IRC server maybe like I heard discussion of that coming in the near future probably later this year we're going to be launching a DEFCON group's website that is just for defcon groups it's going to have a forum just for defcon groups that's active it's focused and we want groups to interact we want groups to send us what they're doing that's cool if you want to be featured and show a cool project or even a dumb project that was just fun like be in touch with me be in touch with the other groups through those means and we'll get it out there and we'll start seeing what we're doing and we'll start showing other people what we're doing maybe like it maybe they'll get interested to DC groups at Def Con org yeah he'd give me an email or hit me up online hey you're actually looking for like a list of active groups it isn't it's on the website it's on the DEF CON would say oh alright with that I think we're going to wrap up and move over to QA what q a room where we in step pavilion number four so it's going to be down the hall and we'll see you guys there