IGSN: Assign a persistent identifier to physical samples - 26 July 2018

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IGSN: Assign a persistent identifier to physical samples - 26 July 2018
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The International Geo Sample Number (IGSN) is designed to provide an unambiguous globally unique persistent identifier (PID) for physical samples. It facilitates the location, identification, and citation of physical samples used in research. Released on July 1, the ANDS IGSN minting service was developed in collaboration with AuScope to enable the Australian earth science community to assign IGSNs to geologic and environmental samples such as rocks, drill cores and soils as well as related sampling features such as sections, dredges, wells and drill holes. Listen to this webinar to: --learn more about IGSN and their place in the PID ecosystem --understand the many benefits of assigning IGSN to research samples --gain insights into the current status and future directions for IGSN implementation in Australia and internationally --find out about the ANDS IGSN service including service scope and access, as well as plans to expand the service beyond the earth sciences domain --hear from IGSN experts and ask questions of them
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good afternoon everyone and welcome to today's webinar my name is Gerry Ryder and it's my pleasure today to introduce you to our presenters we have four
speakers Young's Club will be our first speaker he is a geochemist by training in his science leader of Earth Science informatics in the mineral resources unit of CSIRO and importantly he's also vice president of the international geo sample number number implementation organization which you'll touch on a little bit in his presentation after Brent after yen's we'll hear from Brent McGinnis who's a research professor at Curtin University and director of the John delayed a Center in Perth he has more than 26 years of international experience in the Geoscience the research resource resources research sector then we'll hear from Joel Ben who is a manager manager of DevOps with the a RDC where he's worked for more than five years as part of the development team delivering online services such as research data Australia and the DOI and handle minting services and Joe will be giving us a live demo of the ITSM system and then finally we'll hear from Leslie wyborn who's based at the Anu with the NCI and the research school of Earth Sciences and Leslie will be talking to us about the future of IGS M so without any further ado I'd like to hand over to us as our first speaker thanks you Thank You Jerry for the introduction
speech today I would like to give you a short introduction about what IJ's ends are where they come from and what you can use them for just as a very dry definition I just ends our persistent globally unique web resolvable identifiers for physical samples some people call physical sample specimens anyway the pictures on the slide show you some applications where Arch's ends have been used it's quite a wide range of samples they're not all geological some they can be used for anything that is a physical sample and that is an important aspect for the future development so what what does
persist didn't mean in this long string of this definition those who have been around on the internet for a while have noticed that URLs go away sometimes we need to change the arrangements of servers and how they're organized and whatever technology changes things change and over time that links to phenomenon called link rot where links just don't work anymore and persist in the identifiers were designed to deal with this problem so what they do is they will always resolve through a so-called landing page even when the URL changes or sometime in the future when you're else will no longer be used HTTP as a protocol on the web has been around for 25 years and I don't expect it to be around for another 25 years but the record of science we hope will be around for centuries so there are other examples of persistent identifies and the most popular ones you will probably know as DUI's digital object identifiers and handles actually technologically all the same but I won't go into that today a very important aspect is this aspect
of identifiers being globally unique and this map gives you two examples of what uniqueness might mean on the left hand side is a list of identifiers that can be found in the literature for a sample that has this strange name of Argan 0:03 in the pet DB database and in the literature it has about a dozen different names where one can assume that they all refer to the same object but you can't really be sure so having an identifier that gives a unique identity to the specimen would be really helpful the example on the right hand side is the map of the world listing all the samples from Earth chem with the name m1 so m1 seems to be everywhere and especially in Japan and as a as a material it's anything geological so m1 obviously isn't a globally unique name and it's also not very useful to identify materials so
there's this aspect of wet resolvable and just at the top of the page I gave you the URL of the page where I took the screenshot something long complicated that is likely to change in the near future but just below that is the idea send the arrow points to the big bold ideas N and underneath is just as an example how this particular RG is n this resolved by using a handle net resolving server usually this should all be encapsulated in the applications and you shouldn't worry about it but sometimes you need to and this is an example of how you would resolve it you can actually do this with any DOI or handle through handle net or do I've resolved us and then at the bottom of the page is an example of what what this specimen was called in the field so somebody in this Hamersley Basin project called it hm - 9 6 B which might all not be not be unique but so what I want to show with this slide is that you can call things in your applications in the lab on the field with the grow with the locally unique name something that makes sense to you but to make it globally unique this is where the ideas end comes in like maybe a passport number Social Security number for a specimen so why would we want to use IDs ends as
I already mentioned sample names are locally unique hopefully that should be part of your good housekeeping but they're usually not unique in a global context and so what it enables us if once we assign these globally unique identifiers we can use these identifiers to make exact references to samples and data and richer so the thing that I showed you from the Pacific with its dozen different names if we had an exact reference we would know what we're talking about or we would be able to refer the many M ones to specifically individual samples and having all these samples uniquely identified would also allow us to compile large-scale catalogs and overviews for overview studies very practically having identifiers would also help us track samples through bearing institution samples sometimes do move around they move between institutions they move from a lab to a repository they move from one lab to another and so this can also serve as a tracking number it's not just another label on the box and so because we can now tie a sample to a data set to your publication it also allows us to verify a sample based data many models use some data set based on some sample as a ground truth element and it's at the moment very difficult to go back to that ground truth and having an idea send would help us finding those ground truth evidence bits so what can I use the ideas and for as I said in my opening statement you can use it for any kind of physical sample historically it's the international geo sample number but it's not limited to geological samples and so we're thinking of how which re-engineer the attacker them to mean something more global what you can also use it for something that is not physical something that we call a sampling feature that is the thing where the sample is taken from so a borehole is not a thing it's a hole in the ground it's not a physical object but it's a sampling feature then we need to identify to relate the cause that were taken from this hole through this borehole or a site which might be an outcrop or something sites somewhere where something was taken from nature this might sound like a bit of a distraction from physical objects but we need this to identify where things came from and since there's nothing else in place this was a very pragmatic decision to also make this a feature of the system same also not a physical object is when you aggregate samples into some kind of a collection like a box of samples or a string of pieces from drill core or some things in that work hard together in the net that have some share some association this aggregation of samples can also be identified with large ESM and then very common procedures that we take such samples from an existing sample and these can also be identified and then related to the through the parent object so I just an can also link to other edges ends like the parent-child relationship or specimen true collection or specimen through feature we can also relate them to the eyes and data and literature and to other persistent identifiers through element called related identifiers and this is a feature that we share with data side so we can data sight objects can also refer to I just ends so there's this mutual connection between the true systems and this figure I want to
illustrate to you how things can then relate to each other so we have a specimen that's identified with an IDs n on this particular piece of kaolin ID we measured an infrared spectrum this data set is then identified with the DOI and stored in the CSI raw data access powerful and then this spectrum is part of a publication where it is interpreted this publication is identified with the DOI and then you can go back from this publication and with this provenance trail and go back to the specimen and find out what was it that was analyzed and in this particular example of a spectrum measured on on rock specimens we had a project where we made sure that the thing we measured was actually what we thought we were measuring so that Geraldine ID was actually : ID and not something else and if you had any doubts from the publication you could go all the way back and find the sample where this dataset was derived to give you a
bit of background and global context on ideas and I just in a data side evolved about at the same time in the mid 2000s and when we had some conversations about how to implement this around 2007 samples were seen out of stroke for the precursor of data side data side was founded in 2009 so this is the historical reason why this is not one system but they also other reasons at the moment still in the way we govern the system that make it ballot to go in parallel but not as the same organization the ideas and implementation organization was founded in 2011 and at present has four members in Australia CSR all who joined in 2013 Geoscience Australia who joined in 2014 Curtin University joining in 2015 Australian of research data Commons back then still ends in 20 2017 so that's a
bit of an illustration there about 20 members in a number of countries and various continents starting to show kind of a global spread and it's showing some impact that leslie will be talking about at the end of the set of webinar there are other persistent identifiers around I've already mentioned data side but in relation to identifying specimens I think I just n plays a really important role because at the moment we have 6.5 million samples registered there are a couple of hundred registered with data site but it's important to point out that data set metadata are not suited for samples they are very well suited for three blue graphic objects and data but not for physical specimens a very big play and this area was the life-science identifier elessedil but it was kind of ahead of its time and that limited adoption and eventually the system broke down and was discontinued last year and the biodiversity community reverted back to your L based system which they say is just an intermediate measure until they find something else that works but they have to find something now so they step back to using what they call cool your eyes and that's
all I wanted to tell you about I just and from my perspective and now I hand over to print to give you the university perspective good afternoon everybody
my name is Bert McKenna's I'm the professor of economic geology in geochemistry and the executive director of the John glader Center labs at Curtin University I also have a role as a national coordinator of copes earth composition and evolution program which involves multiple laboratories around the nation I'm speaking to you today with two hats on they keep the key thing about the John de l'aider center if you don't know it's a centralised analytical facility at Curtin University its consists of 14 laboratories 25 staff and they're operating over 33 million dollars of high-end analytical facilities these labs provide analytical services to over 550 unique researchers the labs operate for these provide research services to these individuals about 27,000 hours a year of analytical time so the data volumes being generated are are quite high the actually the the volumes are because it could not be considered high relative to perhaps satellite data or something probably we we generate about 10 to 12 terabytes of data per year which is actually not very much but the data is high-value data and that the data can be used to assess perhaps the petroleum potential of a basin could be able to provide you with the the age or thermal history of a rock sample or a mineral belt or it could provide information perhaps about the health of an ecosystem so with that perspective we have a problem in terms of data management and data delivery and what we realize that we needed to do is we need to come up with a better system of disseminating the datasets to our researchers than and simply allowing them to to take the data on a thumb drive or a hard drive and so we wondered if we could create a system in the laboratory that would automatically capture data about the samples and make it available and reusable and in the future so there's an
example of the the instrument suites that we we have at Curtin a lot of them are mass spectrometry systems or imaging systems such as scanning electron microscopes or TEM and so these are the sort of of instruments we're talking about in the operational hours and in general each researcher has between 10 and 100 samples per per year so you can imagine there's a lot of information if you're trying to capture it in a systematic way so we we did a trial
here's an example of some samples that were collected from the Geological Survey of Western Australia samples on the right hand side think of them as grains of sand they are cast in epoxy mounts in total there are five million seven hundred thousand grains of sand in those in those samples collectively but what they are is they're a heavy mineral concentrates at the the Geological Survey collected when they went into the field to do the mapping and survey programs and we were able to use this instrument in the bottom left hand corner to automatically measure the mineralogy in the chemistry above those samples after eight days of continuous operation so with 200 samples here and a lot of a lot of individual analysis we were automatically faced with a sample and data management made manager problem so we worked with a scope and an x' to to come up with a system of of figuring out how to actually identify this samples because we we saw that there was going to be a problem with the the m1
problem that that yen's talked about if we started systematically doing these analysis for other projects that there would be theoretically a high probability of duplicating the sample numbers and quickly realized that the the I GSN system was the best system to adopt for the for the project so a
number of things that we've done is we've incorporated the IDs n number into a QR code system on the sample which permanently identifies the sample we've actually made that data set available so you can actually go and look at the data set and explore the mineralogy the minerals are classified by chemistry so on the far right hand bottom corner of that slide you can see that there's different colors and those different colors represent the chemistry which is then reflected in the mineralogy so anything red is a titanium dioxide or rutile a grain anything blue is a zirconium silicate and so forth you can actually go to the website and find information about that one of the things that we found out is that over 15% of these samples contain minerals of economic interest and so that could be of interest to exploration companies or certainly people who are now wanting to access these samples to do enhanced geochemical Studies on them looking at neodymium isotopes and some strontium isotope data on some of these samples so now four samples that were previously stored on the shelf at the Geological Survey of Western Australia they're now available for for reuse and interrogation of the datasets and not only mineralogy but you can get chemistry data the IG SN number is for this particular sample here is actually embedded into the the QR code so you can actually take your smartphone and zoom in on that QR code and all the sample information comes up along with the the data analysis so we like to think that this is something that can be used not only at Curtin but use laboratories around the country so
from a research perspective I wanted to to give you my personal opinions on how this will change if not revolutionized the way we collaborate and cooperate I've put on here a Bordeaux slide from from da Rainha bastard cava and this shows where you can the IDs and implementation in a Geoscience Australia where they have over 1.6 million samples registered the fact that they do this makes the samples discoverable online and the perspective here is that if we were all to do this we would actually be able to know you know where can I get samples or who can I collaborate with is my idea original if somebody else already doesn't work in this area you know do I need to add into my proposal a field where component if I can actually access the sample somewhere else in some places in Australia it's very difficult to get access you permitting issues it could take time a lot of bureaucracy and so if you can actually if the samples exist somewhere else that's it's good to know and I think it will benefit people which who are interested in in true collaboration maybe you're an expert in one area of mineralogy but you're not an expert in isotope geochemistry somebody might contact you and say hey can I access your samples in collab right and I think it's gonna really change the way we do business and the other thing is that you know when you review grant proposal you might look at whether or not they actually need to get the fieldwork funded if those samples might exist somewhere else so I think that in in the long term idea Sen will will actually change the way we do business I would work with each other how we win grants and how we receive recognition for our work so I'm really excited about it and I hope you like to thank you it's job in
for my Odyssey I'm gonna give a quick overview of the Odyssey ideas in service so the the audience and service was implemented as a collaboration between Moscow and Zin CSIRO and it was implemented as part of geosciences that are enhanced virtual laboratory project and that project was funded by ends Nick Daren RDS of now form to become a RDC the service itself is free and it's intended for use by the Australian earth science research community now it's a service that is I guess self-service so your institution or organization doesn't have to maintain an account or sign up and manage software in any way it's hosted by a RDC and anyone with an AAF login can access the service and in essence for their samples its accessed by the Oscar website and as I said it's access for an AF login and we do have means of providing users without a AF logins access to the service as well so to do that you'd need to get in touch with the ALDC in terms of emitting an ID sin there's minimum minimum metadata that has to be provided in terms of minting and I'll go through that once I get into the actual web form in a second and I also just want to point out being a persistent identifier there's also some responsibilities for the I guess the mentor of that artist and to maintain the metadata within that idea sentence or the descriptive metadata of that I just sent and also the ability for that idea Cyndi resolved now the resolve ability side of things when you're using the ALS see I descend web interface is taken care of for you so when your mitten ideas in it actually creates a metadata page for you and that is where the ideas in will resolve to when you're using the API to little bit different you will either need to host the the page that gets resolved to or we can do something for you in future release it at the moment the services really obviously because it was implemented as part of the geosciences project it is really limited a little bit to the Geoscience sort of samples and that's mainly because of the metadata sort of schema that's that's being used to describe samples these four geosciences but we are very interested in extending the service out for the domains and disciplines and the best way to sort of get in touch with us would be by the ALDC service desk so services at Anne's that although they you and we can sort of talk through that process the last point is just that we do have an API available for machine to machine hunting so if there are services or tools that are creating lots of samples or want to do this in an automated way that there is an API available and again getting contacted services it ends and we can set up accounts and go through how that would be tested so what I'm going to do is just go through how users access the service and as I said it's fire the Oscar website so I'll just flick over to
people on Scott website and please let me know if they can't see the browser so
this is the page on the otoscope web site so you can see the URL at the top
there it's Oscar that all the au I just in Destin phone and this just gives you a little bit of a sort of info about
that service and sort of the I guess the responsibilities of the users of the service and then at the bottom there is a link to access the service so when I
click that it redirects me off to rapid connect or AAF login and that's where you can pick your institution to log in as all the answers at the ANU then click continue and then this will tells me to
my organization's AF login where I can enter my details ask what drive I'll land into the
service so that's my back testify they are nu AF and it's basically once I'm authenticated its redirected me into the ALS CI DSN service so that was the login process but what I'm going to do is just click over to the test system so that I'm not actually minting production IDs
ends as I go through this the form that you land on when you log in is sort of the registration form so this is the form where you will fill out the metadata tune in tonight your sin and as I said earlier there are a number of sort of minimum fuels that you have to provide in order to meet tonight your sin and so you have to provide the object type so there's a set of options and it's defaulted to physical sample and then you can see the fields that are highlighted in red and there's these are the mandatory fields that you need to provide as a minimum the metadata visibility so you have a couple of options there you can have it publicly visible completely private so no one will be able to find that in terms of the ants the air they see IDs ends service and also won't be harvested out through our AI and publicly there's also the option to put it under an embargo period where you can enter sort of the end dates that embargo and when that elapses that metadata will become public in the service and also via our AI endpoint and you have to specify obviously the simple or item type and also the material type so there's drop-down there's obviously a number of sort of types there to choose from which come from known VOC ads the other thing to point out is there obviously is some in context help to those little icons with each of the fields where you can click and it will give you a little bit of help filling out those fields the other field that is required is obviously the curator and so this can be an individual it could be say a role at an institution and it's obviously good to have that information up to date so if someone does find the metadata for your sample they can get in contact with whoever it is get access to that sample or find more information about that sample so this is really important to keep as I said earlier up-to-date information in now as we go further down and there is additional and data around the idea sin and so we see a location is quite important for all the samples so you can describe the location of where the sample was collected or taken related resources so this is I think you know missus earlier where there's the ability to link between resources so this might be a link between say through the eyes or to idea sentence also there might be a hierarchy between those samples and you can do that in the related resources and the contributors you can obviously I mean anybody that's contributed in any way to this sample and there are a number of roles that you can choose from so there's things from funder okay stakeholders and you can describe those by putting in your name at the role and there's even a spot there to put say their identifier which could be an orchid or an MLA identifier on the last tab there's other information - I guess extend the richness of the metadata around the artisan and so alternative identifies so now this might be you have a local identifier within your systems to represent that sample and you can describe that here classifications Pervis the sample feature - the feature that was sampled to get this actual sample or core or whenever it is the data collection in here as well and also link to so the method of collection project so this is where you might want to link to say a grant that or a project that has basically funded the collection of the sample and any comments providing here they're going back after sort of the minimum metadata there's it's obviously to get your own distend that's all you need but in terms of having a really rich metadata record for discoverability and I guess assessment from other users it's really important I guess to fill out those other fields further down the page there once you have minted a resource you have access
to all the resources under this list resources page and you can see here that I've got all the samples that I've minted previously I can go into any of these and I can edit them since I've
done before and all the fields are filled out you can see that I've got spatial location and you can basically change any of the metadata in there so it might be that the curator has changed or the institution or there's additional information in terms of the project that you might want to add and I'll just click update to take me off to the
metadata view of this page so this is basically the how I'm updating is the
same sort of processes you go through to mint you'll get this pop up where it says that it's been minted in this case it was actually updated and you get a couple of options so you can view the metadata and that will never get you to the metadata page for this IDs him you can add another that will give you a blank for him to add another one or you can click okay and basically okay leaves the form filled out with all the same information because you may have another sample that's very similar and you can basically just tweak the information and mention other artists and with that option in terms of the artisan resolve being able to resolve the audience story and it's underpinned by the handle service so you can use the handle infrastructure to resolve the artist ends and you can see here that we have the full resolvable link for the ideas and I've just updated and if I click that it'll basically take me to the same page as I would have gone through with
that view metadata link so this is where I said earlier that the in terms of using the the a RDC I'd assume web interface we provide that landing page for your audience for you so you don't have to worry about hosting a page anywhere on their systems so this is the view page of the metadata so this is what it someone will resolve their ideas into or will discover an through a service and it basically of all the fields that you've just filled out are available in a read-only mode if you are logged in there is an edit button so you can go in and make changes and if it's not publicly visible so if you've set it to private or it's still under embargo the user will actually when they resolve that they will come in to a basically a lot login page if they don't have access they won't be able to view your metadata there is the QR code at the top here so if you didn't scan that video so your mobile device and it will come up with the full azhagu URL for the ID sin and then you can obviously access the metadata um I think that's most there's a link at the top obviously to documentation so this help on how to fill out form and how things work there's also some information on the API in there as well I think the only other thing to point out was when a when you mint an idea sent you actually receive an email to say that you've minted in a link back to the system so that you can sort of track and edit those going forward and the email that's used is the email that's associated with your AAF login so that's where you'll receive those emails I think that's pretty much everything for me thanks Joel I'll just hand over now to Leslie um okay so I just insert that Kirsten
and I have been kind of developing this system and playing around with it it's a heap of other people there's about 2007 and we designed it originally to be within the geosciences community we knew the life-science identifiers and other systems around and we were happily pulling around to a lot of a sudden we realized we were almost the last man standing and what we also noticed was that people are starting to use it for all sorts of things just because they're desperate to get an ID system for a physical sample and I wonder whether it is the ability for ideas saying to link to samples and data and derived from the sample and to publications has made it extremely popular and it is now being used beyond the original intention for Geoscience domains and the growth is phenomenal as in said it's up to 6.8 million samples we've had inquiries from museums from anthropology's etc and it was getting to be and the growth into the other domains needed to be moderated because you can't just take some of the Geoscience standards we were using them and applying them to bio and other samples and so what we thought was can we identify a key common kernel attribute across the Divine's we also knew that the governance model needed to be strengthened because we was bad enough within the Geoscience domain but it was spreading to other domains and we were starting to have not very good what I would call community behavior our people were actually minting toys but not registering so minting argyus ends but not registering them they were not following the greet protocols and then independently we had a few examples of people say developing vocabularies and other technical things and calling them IGS n and at no stage they they put them through the ideas and technical community or let the governance body know that this was happening and people were starting to put their own spin on things so we didn't really have a consistent message about IGS n and what it's for so Santa Claus comes around ie
the sloan foundation they heard is talking about this at one of their at one of our outreach events and they asked us to consider our grant and we heard about 2-3 weeks ago that we have been given this grant for 20 months starting on 1st of august it's going to establish a solid executable plan for the future of our idea saying that all enable new organizations to participate easily and confidently but more importantly our system will work in that physical samples will be integrated into the research data ecosystem so you can see on the right one of our key things is to identify what is that common kernel and then from there you can work out as Jen as Joel said we've got these fields for extra descriptions make the metadata richer which we done hopefully through a series of controlled vocabularies that are specific to the domain that is setting up the sample and on the right you can see I've got the common kernel and I know for example with marine samples something like grain size so they can borrow the grain size vocabulary that sits the geological Josiah mell vocabularies and there's a lots of flexibilities but what we want is that the common identifiers their key common kernel that'll go across multiple domains and so what we're going to get is the funding for is a series of workshops for international experts and data sight are still with us and are coming on board so again we'll keep that parallelism that we have had with data site to make sure what we come up with we can integrate with data sight and we're going to slightly redesign it and its management to be able to use idea seen with confidence and the experts are from the US the UK France Australia and the representatives from Australia from Cicero and IR DC Japan and South Africa and I've given you a link to a blog which is kind of describing where we're going to be going in the next couple of years and we think it's exciting for example in buyer we now have Ted wig on board and archaeology is coming out of Macquarie University so I think it's the best thing that's happened to us and yeah I think I'll just finish there and hand over back to Gerry however I do yeah thanks Liz if you just move on to the next slide that'll be fine has just got some links on there that people can
follow to find out more so thank you to all our presenters for a really informative set of presentations we've now got time for questions we do have one question already from Barbara and I think it may have been for you Brent where she asks about whether you put the human readable IGS in on the sample as well as the QR code would you be able to respond to that one please Brent yes both are there in fact we we have it's three ways of identifying the sample there's the original sample identification number which you may assign in the field it could be your own personal number then there's the the I GSN assigned are minted number and then what we can will will print out a QR code and attach it to the sample as well thank you now this one may be for unions Andrews asking how are the IDs and IDs in numbers assigned the examples used don't seem to be random that's a very good question and that's a core question and the way we set up I just and one analogy that I like to use and how we make sure and how we how we allocate their names is the way that license plates for cars are allocated so there's a system in place that make sure that license plates and Australia are unique for every car and but this the how is this is handled is very different from state to state and territory to territory and this pattern that's called hierarchical delegation this pattern allows us to accommodate the specific needs in specific applications of our GSN so one example here for field campaigns we have little booklets printed like raffle tickets with unique numbers and then when the son was taken the field this raffle ticket is put into the bag with sample in other campaigns with pre-printed labels with I just ends and QR codes that and then the QR code could be scanned in through a mobile app that helps capture the metadata for the sampling process and other cases the samples already exist with locally unique identifiers in the database and then we use prefix before the locally unique database number to make this a globally unique identifier so the way this is handled depends quite a lot on the specific situation and the governance that we set up is exactly tailored to be able to handle all this variation and how we identify samples Thank You Yangs another question of maybe for you again from Anthony who asks who owns the metadata and how is intellectual property being dealt with so there's two ways to look at this the one is the is the merit of course wherever creates information has an ownership in it from a legal perspective as in other catalogs the metadata are open through everybody because otherwise you can't compile them into global catalogs and you run through all sorts of legal entanglements licensing problems if you put restrictive rules on the metadata so the I hope that answers your question that from a legal licensing perspective metadata are open but of course we acknowledge the intellectual merit that draws in to creating them Thank You Yangs yeah it's always a tricky question about intellectual property and joël a couple for you Helen wants to know is it possible to upload a large group of details that are similar but need IDs in for example from a spreadsheet so where there's repeating data but many samples so the bulk functionality is only really available if you say a script with the API but it is something that we have with our other services so we would be looking at that sometime in the future no doubt but at the moment the only real way to do that sort of bulk import would be by the API ok thanks and I know your team joel is happy to help people get the API up and running and Barbara's asking the best website to go to for the metadata scheme and associated vocabularies you can go through the documentation page which is linked from the service or through the ant website there is information on the idea sent service we find the metadata scheme the metadata was the scheme was developed by Cyro for their project needs but it has meaning to accept that I guess by the the Geo community so far I think there is work going forward to review that and the vocab that are used and obviously Leslie also touched on some work on that sort of core metadata kernel that will happen but in terms of question shortly the DNS website would be supposed to - okay someone's expressing a concern with the different levels for which an i gsm can be used for example borehole sample and sub sample how is that resolved in detail not that's not a clear question to me I'm afraid yes so this example of boreholes and materials coming from that and then being subsampled this is very nicely illustrated by a use case from the international continental scientific ruling program where they've used I just send to identify bore holes in one of their projects and then all the materials that came from these operations and the the link between all these objects is the related identify element in the metadata where you can refer from a parent object to a child object or from a child object to a parent object and in the edges and documentation on github this example is listed and when you resolve this edges and it takes you to a very nice page that I had on one of my screens which actually has this tree structure of dependencies between objects very well illustrated and interactive so you can go from one level to the next and from one object to the other and display the associated metadata in pretty great detail okay and a follow-up question I'm not quite sure who on the panel can answer this one but the demonstrated way to register an ID GSM would take him at least a minute if GA had one person doing nothing else they would be able to register about a hundred thousand samples a year so how did they manage to register 1.6 million I think that was actually globally rather than GA well J did register more than 2 million samples and they did that through using the API the API was actually the original way to register a GSM and adding web forms was a later addition to accommodate the needs of individual researchers our original are not original but our initial target group to grow the system quickly were large organizations like National geodetic survey with large collections and they would then use the API for sample registration I think unions a comment that it it seems that the effectiveness of the service is strong dependent on institutions maintaining him a museum or archive system for their samples which is unlikely in many institutions because of costs is anyone in the panel wish to respond to that Brendon what one short remark is that when we talk about persistence there's sometimes a confusion between what is supposed to be persistent what not and what we require in the system to be persistent if the description the sample itself might not be available sometimes we do destructive analyses and after that analysis the sample is drawn so you won't be able to keep it but you want to keep the information about it and its identity and that minimum is something that that is what is required but there are other aspects to it that friend and leslie might also refer to I guess what I could say is that um yeah this is a phenomenal problem around the world and in geology samples are being ditched they're very expensive to store and so one of the turning it around is as Brent said maybe we can cut down on the number of samples if we carefully curate what they are like how many trips do you need to the Galapagos Islands to collect those samples or they're properly registered they can be reused and so we're starting to build a case for up maybe fewer samples but better managed and the other more important thing as Yun said is now that we can share samples so easily through this system like they're not boxes sitting in people's cupboards we are bringing to the front the fact that samples if they're properly curated can be reused and it makes it easy for you to go to the funders to say well here's a suite of samples that should be preserved because you know they're well described they've got identifiers but make to the data and the funders can actually start to see another purpose other than boxes and boxes of rocks that have got the numbers my name - m3 also when you take the national collections like the national insect collection or the national herbarium these collections already exist and our reference collections and I see a lot of value in identifying these samples that biodiversity world has been working on this for many many years and unfortunately they attempt at the life-science identifier broke down last year I won't go into the details of why this happened but we're making a new attempt together with the biodiversity community to make sharing of these resources easier thanks yen's one last question oh sorry brain I just like that my personal perspective I mean I think we can all share horror stories around samples being chucked out but and so we started a pilot project where we identified researchers who are near retirement who have substantive collections at institutions and we do recognize that those institutions may not have the resources to to host those samples indefinitely and so we are brokering arrangements with organizations such as geological surveys to actually store those samples or host of those samples and to make them available so I think in the future we're gonna see a much more of a of a consolidated effort to preserving samples which are precious and if they're not registered in I GSN no one will know that they exists so I think it's one of those chicken-and-egg things we just need to start registering samples if you think your your samples are important and and you'd like to share them then make them recognized Thank You Brent and that actually takes us to the end of our time and unfortunately we do have some unanswered questions so we'll attempt to respond to those offline to the individuals who have asked them before closing I'd just like to say a big thank you to all our presenters today and to our audience for their participation the fact that we didn't get through all the questions suggests that there is a lot of interest in this topic and please I would encourage you to have a look at the information about the service and about IGS in that it is available on the ends website and to contact us if you have any questions about using the service or about IGS n we hope to see you at a future AR DC event we do have quite a series of webinars and events that you can find on the owns website thank you are getting to our presenters and have a great afternoon