BIO HACKING VILLAGE - Four Thieves Vinegar Collective: Take back the knowledge, Take back the power

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BIO HACKING VILLAGE - Four Thieves Vinegar Collective: Take back the knowledge, Take back the power
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well hackers by hackers everybody thank you so much for coming my name is Michael laughs I'm chief spokesman for the 4th East vinegar collective and I'm here to recruit you because we've done a lot of fun things we've made a lot of great progress in a lot of different projects but we still have things that need doing and we need more people oh there I am all right everybody hear me okay now yeah all right I'll stop projecting that okay so to my mind hacking as an ethos
is an ethical issue what it does is it takes what's possible and it uses that to leverage and do more than what's allowed for the greater good so many things are possible when we move outside the boundaries of what's allowed and I think that's that's sort of the vibe here at Def Con so I want to thank the biohack village and Def Con for having us we're really honored to be here and we want to talk specifically about health this is what we work in were a global health organization we're an anarchist collective and the important thing to think about in terms of health is that it happens no matter what else is going on as policy changes as regimes change as the landscape shifts you still have to deal with your health you know you go to prison for 40 years you come out you're in prison during the Revolution after the Revolution if you don't have your health you don't really have anything else and not only does it deprive you of the capacity to live life it really deprives you of engaging with life in a meaningful way so I hope some of you were at hope anybody got a hope and see us there thank you for coming across the country to see us again we're not gonna have a lot of overlap hopefully I'm hoping to talk about all the things I couldn't talk about it hope that talk is online if you want to see it if you have heard of us before two
years ago we were at hope and I made kind of a stink as Martin shkreli was kinda in the news Martin shkreli is CEO or was CEO of turing pharmaceuticals and if you're not familiar daraprim is this anti toxoplasmosis drug and toxoplasmosis is a brain parasite it's not a big deal for most of us I think I have it a lot of people have it if you hung out with cats you probably have it if you have an impulsive nature you probably have it but if you have a compromised immune system in advanced stages of cancer HIV or if you're pregnant it's very very dangerous and there's only one drug that's currently approved to treat it the molecule in question is called pyrimethamine and the brand name is daraprim turing pharmaceuticals has exclusive license on it and you take it for about a week and a half and you're done and it was 13.50 a pill and then he changed the price to seven hundred and fifty dollars a pill to which a lot of people myself included took quite some exception so it's not that hard to manufacture I did it on stage and this photograph of me on the left is me throwing 200 milligram pills the audience so it's 750 for 50 grams 4 times that's a 3,000 pill that I'm manufacturing for 25 cents I'm throwing to everybody so then then then you know to continue the publicity stunt I called him at this number unfortunately this number no longer works because he's in Fort Dix because he just got seven years for insider trading or you know trade fraud but if you do want to get in touch with I apologize if you do want to get in touch you can still write to him here I did
he didn't however write back I was really hoping that we'd be able to have you know an ongoing conversation didn't happen and but you know his his loss I'm actually hoping to go to Fort Dix and see if he wants to chat some more the big publicity splash that the collective had was when the EpiPen thing happened
we developed the epi pencil which was sort of a combination of off-the-shelf parts you can build your own auto injector for about 30 bucks you can reload it for about three dollars and we were feeling pretty good about ourselves because it seemed like a lot of people were getting a lot of good from this and and we blew up on YouTube and then
YouTube said you're endangering the public and I said okay if that's really what you think so don't worry this is still hosted we have all the files on our website it's now on the Internet Archive and the Alexandria project the ironic thing was is that after YouTube gave us the shaft turned out that my land wasn't doing so good so the
FDA came down and said don't build your own happy pen it's not safe but then real EpiPens started to fail and they
recalled something like eighty thousand of them and any time you walked into a pharmacy it said do you have that be pens bring them back they might fail and they did a recall and the dangerous
thing is that because it's single-use you can't test it until it either works or it doesn't the EpiPen salar version you can test as many times as you want because it's reloadable and you can audit the entire process
then on top of that my land dropped the ball they they were told to investigate and they didn't and then on top of that after that blew over and somehow it stopped being a problem there was a
shortage you couldn't get him even if you were willing to pay six hundred dollars for a pair and after all of that and mind you that was that was that was a year and a half of those almost two years ago the price still hasn't changed
and interestingly enough the price of daraprim also hasn't changed you know everybody got their sacrificial lamb you know it sure Crowley's rotting in Fort Dix but turning Pharmaceuticals is still raping people for their money so in terms of the EpiPen thing here's Heather
brash lying to Congress oh I don't do I haven't if I do have my phone why is this important because I have this information now now this is a trick caller I'll just take a show of hands I'm okay let's do it so I called her a few weeks ago from hope and I got her voicemail you can't leave a message on her voice mail unless you um unless you have a passcode but let's see so from one to seven for one but but little-known she was at home last night don't ask me how I know all right so I'll see you guys here come on pick up it's important we could she had about so many things I have thoughts about you so if anybody's really good at VoIP hacking I think I'm gonna get this password thing again yeah so I know I try that two weeks ago didn't work but yeah five five five five didn't work either anybody anybody wants to crack that let me know and I'll try again anyway that was fun sorry I didn't get to chat with her so um I have a secret and even my fellow collective members who are present don't know about this but an old hacker tradition is spot the Fed is there a Fed
in the audience my friends would say probably but there's somebody else in the audience from a different three-letter organization I was informed that there are two gentlemen from GlaxoSmithKline who are present now why they're here is like such mystery but I have some theories that I'd like to share a few years ago I wrote this expose about how GlaxoSmithKline actually has the technology to more or less end the AIDS epidemic but probably won't and and and from an you know an unsure but uncharitable perspective it's possible that they're here to sort of shake me down but I'm helping I'm hoping that wherever those gentlemen are that the reason they're here instead is say you know we kind of dig what you're doing kid let's have a drink so wherever you are guys let's hang out right let's help each other that said this is the
biggest deal that I talk about in general the amount of Technology and I think everybody here knows this isn't general about technology the amount of things that have been developed but aren't on the shelf is incredible and this extends to health in an incredible incredible way all of the things that we could do but don't add up in these just frightening ways and the GlaxoSmithKline things specifically they have a new antiretroviral that they are trying to push through clinical trials but it's something that with one injection can act as both a pre exposure prophylaxis and also as an antiretroviral for people who are infected with HIV and is affected for four months at a time this means that if you went into a community that had a high viral load you could dispense with the stigma of testing and say we know some people have this and we don't care who everybody's gonna line up you're gonna take your medicine if you have HIV this will keep you healthy if you do not have it you will not get it and we'll be back next season to do this again and within a generation you could essentially wipe it out that said and I want to make assumptions GSK people but I have this feeling they're not going to be giving it away like that but we could be so how do you do this how do you deal with the pharmaceutical crisis the magic of pharmaceutical is that it's a molecule it's chemistry but there's this terrible cultural stigma against chemistry like oh you shouldn't do it at home isn't it difficult people should only be doing chemistry if they have letters after their name and have qualifications well I think we hack errs have a different idea about things that said on top of that hackers work so well to try to destroy tininess of technology so that people can have access I mean in the 80s right the the culture was computers are scary oh god they're gonna end the world and cause World War three and weirdness and now everybody's got one in their pocket and another on their lap in another back of home same thing about rapid prototyping that was a niche thing until about eight years ago and now 3d printing is something we just throw around loosely and in the cases of these things where technology has shifted and becomes something that was accepted seems that there's a common thread two things first a touch of automation to take the things that are repetitive and easy to screw up and then a good user interface so it seems friendly you know smiles at you there are little pictures of folders instead of typing out a directory name and so the question is well can you do this with chemistry and the answer is hell yes you can this is
an automated chemical reactor these are - and these are commercial and you can buy them sorry no you can't buy them why well they're prohibitively expensive they're full of proprietary technology so if they break you can't fix them oh right and they won't sell them to you unless you're a lab not that there aren't workarounds for that but if you look at these they're not terribly sophisticated what you're looking at is a jacketed reactor the inner glass chamber is where the reaction happens you can see there's a stir bar that comes down and keep stirring the outer jacket carries a fluid the fluid is regulated temperature-wise externally and keeps the reaction happening at a stable temperature very easy to do essentially a PID module and then you have things that are injecting regions in particular times in the old days you just had a graduate student do it or you're like here stir this for 12 hours at 30 C and then when you're done with your book you know put this in and then do it again but you know some chemist came up with the idea that they could have better uses for their grad students so they you know start having these produced now again the difficult part is that you can't get them but regulating temperature stirring injecting things at a particular time how hard could it be not very so how do we know well you know
we have all these technologies where we're hijacking all of that other stuff and saying well we can build this at home and you know we did so this was the
very first alpha unit this is this was super hack together I was right yeah it's a mason jar okay with tubing that's a bicycle nipple to try and regulate pressure and and that's a chi warmer on this side now he can't do a whole lot with this but this was a proof of concept that I built when I was living out of my VW bus no breaking bad jokes please and you know and I made aspirin with it it was it was very very simple but as more and more people came on it
became more sophisticated so again this
is the PID module and these were like some lights that I set up to blink it's user feedback right they blink means something's happening so then we had a like later alpha unit that was very
hack-and-slash I we used a oh sorry we used an Arduino Uno I think this was you know again with blinking lights but
how do you how do you put the other pieces together well you have to inject reagents somehow so there are these
open-source syringe pumps that were designed by a woman named Mia Cuomo who lives in Spain and so as you can see these are 3d printed parts these are the ones that she made this I sort of put
together out of garbage and somebody who was nice enough to premiere some parts this was a this wasn't automated like cassette retrieval system that I'd like gotten out of a you know industrial dumpster weird fine like it's like great but then after we were at hope the last time we got a bunch of people who were much more sophisticated in software design hardware design putting these things together so we got sorry so we
shifted things a little bit here's me on the left and you can see I'm holding one of the more recent generations of jacketed reactor this is a mason jar within a mason jar and there's a 3d printed core that links them together there are places where the fluid comes in and where the fluid is pumped out and then there's a spot for the stir bar that comes to the center and then separately in another mason jar there's the temperature regulation that happens then the next version we decided to move to the raspberry pi 0 which is on the upper right and you can see me holding the prototype breadboard it out there and now we're very pleased that we've managed to make the jump to actual circuitry here's the schematic and and
here the printed boards which I think
look so cool and I can say that because I didn't design this right I I very much appreciate the members of the collective who did this work and here's the other
side here's the cutaway and then we have
a picture of it actually populated so
here you can see the switches the power jack is on the left there's a bank of relays on the right that control of things that require some power on the
flip side you can see the chips that drive the stepper motors and the the little rail where the Raspberry Pi is zero drops in and if you want to see it it looks like of this so what's this one all right so I have a few and to be on brand I have them in these wonderful ziplock bags that look like mason jars so all right see here I'll first be a few out oh I'm sorry yes sir okay who's all right Irish oh sorry okay I have a few more I don't want to hurt anybody but I have two more company after we also have a workshop happening after that wall chat about and all I can give the last two out all right
so whoops I just knocked the video out
I'm so sorry there we go okay well I can still talk
about things I'm not quite sure what I just hit somebody give me a hand okay
cool so I think I jumped ahead no that's
right all right so this is von Hippel Eric von Hippel sort of a godfather of user innovation and open source he invited me to MIT to come speak and it seemed really friendly until he dragged me into a back room and said that he thought I was going to ruin the last 40 years of his work because people were going to recklessly utilize this and things were gonna go wrong and he likened it to the 3d printing world if we had started by 3d printing guns and I would have been criminalized and and I was like you know it really the last 40 years of your work is threatened by me putting an idea forward kind of yeah that's fine that's fine I'll just keep going um I was like maybe you just need to get your act together brah come on I'm not that much of a threat but in in honor of that we have a new reactor core that we are dubbing the von
Hippel so this is our beta unit here and you can see this instead of being printed in three pieces and needing caps it's all built together you can actually screw the smaller jar on the top or on the bottom drop this into the large jar screw it down and it's ready to go and and I mean look at how great this again I could admire because it's not my work right the hardware team did a great
job so well while this is coming back once this one alright so here's one please favorite colors blue and then I have a couple that are sort of semi prints so you can sort of see the interior and the base so people want to look at these later I have them as well so again as this continues to boot
alright so here again this is a new version of the syringe pump that can be printed entirely you need almost zero parts for it and so we continue to try to scale in two directions one being for how can this go into sort of small-scale production so somebody can grab our github repo and maybe set up a shop and sell things cuz we don't sell things but if somebody wanted to make kits hi anybody want to chat about that later you can totally do it and then on the flip side if you're manufacturing everything yourself it should be easy enough so we have a file format that will drive
things and it's very simple you can sort of watch it run here and you can see that it's it's fairly self-explanatory you're basically timing you're looking at when you're dumping the various syringe pumps and where you're keeping the temperature there's a piece of user feedback I'm not sure if I'm gonna have time unfortunately to show you guys the user interface but it's cool it's really cute and again anybody who wants to come to the workshop after I can show you guys that but the question always comes
isn't the chemistry complicated aren't people going to make mistakes aren't they're these scary stories of people who were manufacturing meth and gave up people Parkinson's or night and the answer is well yeah and that's where the hard part comes in how do you design a reaction so it's robust how do you make it so the deep errors are the the margin for error is greater and the answer is you do this with computational chemistry so this is a screenshot from some proprietary technology to which you don't have access and I no longer have access but this was a small startup called kinematic and they had some very sophisticated machine learning stuff that was digging through the last five to seven hundred years of chemical literature to look at anything related to your reaction and build something within the parameters you wanted and we said oh well we'd like to make daraprim this is how we made daraprim you know two years ago and we said okay we'd like to do it in one step and we you know we want to be able to do with a huge margin of error so if the temperature fluctuates or measurements are off it doesn't matter and this is actually a one step synthesis of daraprim that you can do we didn't end up going with this one because one of the precursors is expensive but we have them do it again we got it down to two steps and with stuff that is commercially available and very very cheap so we tried to keep a
relationship with kimitaka but there was this problem which is they got acquired and and merck doesn't really like us and i know this because they told me so i did call them and
apparently my call has been escalated to the proper authorities but it didn't come back so again another another group I was hoping to have a live call with which didn't fly the big idea though here is that any of this yeah ok hmm all right I'm gonna have to accelerate a little bit here the idea here though is
that science is a human right wait what is the human right a human right you have to explore that question you ask what's human there are two things that make us human human body in the human mind biohacking incarnate if you can't explore intellectually and adjust your body as you see and you're not free so that said we have a data science team and they set about trying to build a new version of
kimitaka so this is their data on the left and this is our set of days so that the captions are switched so this is you can see the structure is the same but we need access to their big database if we want to run this properly of course that's very expensive and it's protected but hackers to the rescue
these are QR codes for three darknet sites please take pictures like right now these three places have this data the data is password protected apparently a little bird told me that the password is very robust if you are good at hacking tarball password files please crack this if you are not good at cracking tarball files please save this data so it stays in the ecosystem everybody got the pictures yeah okay and again we have
this ethical issue with which we deal and the problem is that you have the
medical industry disenfranchising you from access to things that you could do yourself but you're not allowed because of the legality this happened a couple
of weeks ago a woman fell into the gap between a train and the platform and her femur was sticking out and she didn't ask for help she begged people not to call an ambulance because she couldn't afford it something is very wrong and there are a gazillion examples of this
you you know getting one stitch those
prices of any number of drugs skyrocketing not being able to exist and in fact I'm not even the hundredth
person to come up with this idea hospitals are making their own drugs because they can't afford to buy them something's really amiss so
I want to talk quickly about orphan drugs orphan drugs fall into a particular category I can tell anybody details who wants to know but they get very very expensive this cures a bunch of cancers but things don't work very well oh thank you oh cool I have more time than we thought so this is Keats Rita it it cures a particular type of cancer the problem is is it's extraordinarily expensive however like most drugs that are orphan drugs their biological derivatives this is a Chinese hamster I mean like not nationally that's them that's the you know of species but Chinese hamsters have ovaries that are really easy to grow things on and this is how you that's how key treat is made now I want to stress this the step for between making the biological material and creating the medicine is extraordinarily non-trivial but something cool about when a drug is based on biological material so here are the 5 most
expensive drugs in the world there are all orphan drugs this means that fewer than I think 10,000 people in the world have them and they fall under a whole host of laws that make it so that your patent can last for longer and you know you have zero price restrictions and on and on and on now this is interesting gleb era it's a virus and it's harvested through armyworm cells selearis is an antibody that is harvested through ns0 cells l appraises and enzyme replacement as is nag l'm ones built using recombinant DNA methods and another one is just an engineered version of E coli and syn Rises a protein that you can actually pull out of human blood plasma now I mentioned this specifically because we are in the bio hacking village and typically when I come and give talks to biohackers I have to sort of apologize and say you know I'm not really a biohacker we don't really do biohacking in the collective until today so what we're working to create is a way that people can have access to this now if you recognize this fellow this is
George Church I met him at MIT about a year ago and he was really really cool about six months later he was quoted in New York Times saying this which was really creepy and really disheartening now to be fair it seems like he was either misquoted accorded out of context at the very least doesn't seem like the kind of thing he would say but there are people who hold this opinion even if it's not his and to them we have forwards so how do we get around this
how do we make it so that access is guaranteed well we have an idea the
magic of biological material is that if you are set up to replicate and store it if you get a small amount of it then what you can do is make copies you can store it you can send it to people and they can make copies and Stewart this is sound familiar and given that these are the precursors for any number of medicines why not do it so we can have a distributed library of precursors for medicines and once biohackers get good enough at filtering things out we eventually will have access to medicines for all and never
again pay for service that would be dirt-cheap if it weren't run by a bunch of profiteering flock sorry and never again pay for a service that would be
dirt-cheap into war and run by a bunch of profiteering gluttons so how do you do this so there are two pieces to this one is actually distributing things and another way is doing it in a way so that you can bypass a certain amount of anonymity and plausible deniability now this is being worked on if you are a crypto person and you work on things like tor and other anonymizer x' there is a collective of hackers who's starting to build a structure that's going to allow us to be able to share things a database of places that have what sort of biological material you might be looking for and you will be able to set up a system of envelopes within envelopes again sound familiar and you will be able to be a node in the network where you either open it up and it's for you or you open up into another envelope and you just put it back in the mail and go somewhere else and you say I don't know where it came from and there are systems for making it so that you don't actually know exactly where it's going um I again if you want to come up and hear details about this there was a really great talk at hope like four years ago about a way that you can put in a postal code and the machines will read it but a human being won't know where it's going and these Priority Mail mail envelopes
they slide inside really well you know they're made of Tyvek so it's cool so there are basically four types of biological material there's um there are million cells there's bacteria you have plants and you have fungus and again you can copy these now for those of you who have ever worked with mushrooms or fungus of any type mycelium really likes paper
and in the US Postal Service we have a special rate for shipping books called book rate it's a wicked cheap and you can if you want to share biological information that's fungus base you can merely inoculate a book and then just ship it book great now interesting thing about twenty years ago book rate became medium mail you could also ship CDs and I was thinking if CDs kind of look like petri dishes don't they so working on
ways to utilize this as a way to ship things alright so and now I want to be a tad graver I want to talk about the most
common infectious disease in human beings and this is dental caries cavities now how do you get a cavity well you get a cavity because the enamel layer and your tooth is broken down and it sets up shop so that other bacteria can come in and hang out what does the lactic acid come from comes from this guy this is stuff Dukakis mutants and it has evolved so that it can actually grip the surface of your tooth very uncommon for most bacteria it needs sugar and it excretes lactic acid this is the culprit and this leads to so many dude serious health effects that come after heart problems vascular problems type-2 diabetes low birth weight and pregnancy any number of things and it disproportionately affects minorities and people in lower socioeconomic classes now this is a gross picture I'm about to show you guys so brace yourselves this guy's seventeen he drinks a lot of
Mountain Dew and he his teeth were so rotted that when he went to have them extracted local anesthetic did not work at all let's not have this happen ever again so how do we do this well the first idea is
your mouth has your immune system working in it so maybe we could inoculate against this and some people thought some thoughts about this and yes you could theoretically inoculate it against it but the only way that that works is if you inoculate before it's in your system you have this in your mouth really early on maybe if you have a newborn you could pull this off it was tested and some you know one or two months old managed to get it to work but I can tell that nobody in this room is of that age so how do we do this instead well if we could just do something about that one bacteria so there was an idea a guy said what if we repopulate the mouth with a genetically engineered version of this and how do you do this well you edit it and there are two edits that were done this is the first one and what he did was he said let's make a new version of strep mutants that's immune to a particular antibiotic and also excretes that antibiotic so as soon as you put it in there it wipes the rest out and builds the same colony because it's the exact same species more or less and so the population stays stable and its life cycle stays stable let's make a second edit the guy said and let's make it so that instead of cranking out lactic acid it cranks out alcohol trace them outs trace amounts right like don't get too excited but he did this and it worked now what I wanted to do today was hand out toothbrushes with this bacteria on it because you can brush your teeth with this for three minutes and never get a cavity for the rest of your life how do we know the guy who invented it did it and twelve other people who are in one of the studies that he was actually able to do before he ran out of money in the FDA said you need to do a bunch more when all these extra things need but I don't have access to this however we did manage to get our hands on the one with the first edit so this is this is strep mutans Clark JH 11:40 so this is the one that has the Edit in it so that it will out-compete regular strep mutants it does not have the Edit so it doesn't produce lactic acid but instead has alcohol that's an edit that still needs to be done now show of hands how many people have done recombinant DNA stuff cool who wants this one alright so in addition I have a bunch more of these and right after I'm done we're going back to the workshop and we have stab cultures because we can make copies of this now one thing I have to warn you we're not entirely sure if these stab cultures took so if it's dead I'm really sorry but we have them and even if all these stab cultures are dead we have the starting material we have a culture that is alive and we are going to be able to perpetuate it and we are going to be able to distribute it now how do you do
the edit there are lots of different ways to do this okay and if you've done any of these or want to try some of these go ahead because we have an endless supply now that we have one sample now again I'm not a biologist I don't know a whole lot about this but the one that's sort of appealing from the hacker perspective is horizontal gene transfer and was explained to me by a dear biologist friend if you just get the bacteria that you really like to party really hard together they share traits now what was done was the open reading frame for the production of alcohol dehydrogenase are sorry if the production of lactic acid was deleted and then from a different species detailed in that paper which I will share with anybody who's interested it was pulled in the production of alcohol dehydrogenase was just stuck in there it was apparently a very simple procedure and again the bacteria Falls from a
truck and anybody who wants some of this can just come next door and we've got a bunch now critical important this will
out-compete your endogenous bacteria you do not want that to happen because it still produces lactic acid and it will still break down your teeth don't brush your teeth with this I'm not kidding once you edit it and you know that it's not producing lactic acid anymore then then call me and then we can all share it through the torrent system now
sometimes people get scared now our dear
Ian Malcolm in Jurassic Park did say that life finds a way the thing that he neglected to create in his reality picture life does find a way but we're all life and we are finding a way and we're finding more ways now I'm closing in on the end of the hour but I want to
speak just a little bit ideologically we're really happy about all the medical technology that we're managing to get into people's hands but this is a footnote oftentimes journalists will say what's your end goal what would you like to have happen and say I would like the collective to dissolve and not exist anymore because we're not necessary our hope is that the open source movement does its natural ecosystem thing all the tools reproduce become common and people come up with better versions and better uses and the big thing that's holding everything up and continues to hold things up as you are all aware is intellectual property law there have been a few key points in history where economics and morality have come to an impasse classic examples are the cold war the Reformation slavery in the United States and the dialogue went like this what's happening is a moral and the response from the establishment was well yeah we know and that's really unfortunate but this is sort of how our economy works and some of us said well that's not good not and that's happening right now because people right now are dying because of intellectual property law every three minutes somebody dies of hepatitis C three times a minute somebody dies of HIV every minute over a dozen botched abortions happen and roughly 11 drug overdoses happen all things which could easily be avoided with pharmaceuticals if they were accessible but they're not oppression
comes from resource control resource control comes from information control information can only be controlled when it's commodified and this only happens when understanding is shrouded and the hacker community has done a great job of unfuckin this particular problem in the tech world how do we do it you just are nice to the newbies it's great this is the greatest good you can do somebody knows something somebody wants to know something that you know you help them and this has been part of the hacker ethos for decades and it's something that the rest of the scientific community can learn a lot from and the bio hackers are doing wonders for this so I'm about done I think I might have
time for a few questions but I'll show a couple of things that I enjoy this is a cute little slide that I like to show again if the conceptual understanding is there then people can build their own knowledge and they don't have to keep going back to an arbiter of truth to ask for more this is a picture of a blank
wall we'd like it to look like this again we don't create things that the collective that we're then trying to disseminate saying like we're so cool we're saying look we're all creating this together you're all part of the collective so here's my last slide and
you'll forgive me because every time I show this I get a little choked up but this is a carl sagan ism as a picture of Earth from space nobody's going to help us except us thank you so much
see am I done but I have time I tell you all right so this is great so at hope I didn't have time for questions so one thing that I will say before I take questions is that right after this I'm gonna go to doors over and we're gonna see if we can make some stabs again we don't know which of them might or might not be viable but at least if you're interested in the idea of stab culture so that once we do have ones that we know we're working you can make your own if you want to come learn about that or see it or you just want to hang out and like you know have a cocktail or whatever we're like we'll be two doors over and we'll be working from 4 to 5 or 4 to 4:30 or 4 to 5 so we'll be working for another hour and it'll be nice and informal we can all just hang out and and I think it'll be pretty dope so I do have a few minutes to take questions if people have some and and if the GSK people want to identify themselves I'd like to let you guys go first no they're shy I mean or we can just yeah never you can call it a day and go next door yeah go ahead and again I'm easy to spot I'll be here tomorrow I'm the guy who looks like he lost his wig and forgot what he was looking for yes go ahead so the device that you developed two main chemical reaction is anybody currently using that to like solve a problem they cut themselves or are you aware of it yes so we don't know we hope so um but things are being sort of we're releasing things in stages things are not at a solid beta stage at this juncture if you're building one like you're a pretty adept hobbyist because you kind of have to hack it together we're hoping that by the end of the year we essentially have a set of instructions and things that you can order and you can put together a kit for yourself now that said the reason I say we don't know is that we work very hard distance ourselves from end users because you don't want us be seen as pushing the technology like we've developed this and we think it's pretty cool but that doesn't mean that you'll think it's cool right the idea is that it should be an individualized choice if if you decide that making your own medication is the wise way to go we're trying empower that but not saying this is a better option or a an option that you should take that said the difficult thing is is that if you have a life-threatening illness under the current regulatory infrastructure if the system fails you you just have to shrug and wait to die and we think that people should have a little more choice than that but yeah again we have many details and if you're interested now hit me up and and there are files to be shared and we have github repos in the home the whole business yeah thank you couple questions for you what's the legal situation right now for someone doing that not themselves or fathers oh you have a legal situation legal situation is very convoluted the first lawyer I ever spoke to I described what we were doing and the words out of his mouth for they're going to kill you and I was kind of shocked Isis a legal opinion and he said yeah the FDA the DEA big pharma the Catholic Church I mean they're gonna come after you I'm surprised you're still alive and I was like that's unfortunate so to be fair we've not received any sort of prosecution or injunctions to date we think that it's likely that will happen eventually we do have lawyers who have been very generous with their time and they're helping us to prepare for that likely eventualities the closest thing was the statement that the FDA released saying you don't make your own EpiPen and we said well it's not happy Peniston heavy pencil but you know yeah the legal situation is is hairy so how do you think I'll work practically let's say a patient makes the right but then they have to work with the physician say hey I made this myself you know have to be monitored by the physician now have you thought about how the practical you know which it's really it's it's touchy right again the main thing is if if somebody has a life-threatening illness and their choices to either die or break the law like where you're gonna fall on that and to to our mind given the intellectual property thing if if you really subscribe to the logic that violating intellectual property is theft if you're perpetrating an act of theft to prevent an act of murder which is what we would call it if you're withholding medications from somebody who needs it that's that's morally pretty in unambiguous so yes yes sir yeah hey nice to see you yeah great talk my questions about validation of the stuff that you're proposing or working with now yes I'm like does it work how do you know that it works and I mean if you want to measure a chemical use mass spec or NMR and stuff like that where do you see that going right so things are hairy and um we we have tried to do a fairly thorough risk analysis there are a lot of concerns when you when you do any repopulation right you're the biodiversity of the mouth changes and goes down is there concern about it migrating to the throat or the gut or the antibiotic migrating to the throat of the gut they're also people are typically concerned about the things that chef mutants usually does all those health problems does this one create those as well and if there are detailed answers to most of those and the jury is still out on some of them but such as it is the examples where it has been tested in humans there have been no deleterious effects and specifically for the heart infection one which is like the really scary one there's a particular genetic marker of a sub-sub strain of mutants Clark or mutants that has Tagg that creates that and the particular substrate that we have doesn't have that marker so theoretically that should not be producing that but these are these are all things and again we're not saying you should brush your teeth with this once you manage to make the edit we're saying we hope you make the edit and then you have the option so again all those things are there and well in terms of our documentation we're going through to try and make that risk analysis very transparent to say like your concerns that are valid concerns here's what we think and we encourage you to read more here the original papers etc etc yeah but very important thing when you start messing with biological material things get complicated yeah I guess to be a bit more pointed with the question is like where do you have your own data or like are you collecting your own data what's your own line of heard well as soon as I add it that thing it's going right in here right like yeah like as soon as as soon as we get the edit like I'm I'm vector 0 well that's the other thing you can't spread it between people unfortunately because I thought we were gonna have like a makeout party to save the world and it was gonna be so great and then all the biologists were like no and it doesn't work like that and I was like are you sure and they were like no it doesn't night ask them like finally one of them was like wow I don't know like maybe if it were like a really sloppy makeout like maybe one in 3,000 times and I'm like I feel like I know some people would be willing to put in the wort for that but I mean I think they were just humoring me I think it's very very unlikely she could actually pass it between people but again if you're good with editing organisms if you can figure a way that it could be passed you want to edit it like let's try it right because better we can save the world and have it spread so thank you so in addition to procedures for making those drugs you've been working on do you have procedures for end-users to verify what they thought they're making is what it is and if the concentrations are what they expected them great so this is probably the most common question I get it's like if you manufacture our medication how do you know that actually is that medication so this is where the front-end work comes in right we we did chemistry for hundreds of years before we had GCMs and NMR and those old-school wet chemistry methods that were used during that time essentially just built a robust reaction on the front end and so the work that we do with the computational chemistry makes it so that the pathways are such that if you do screw up the reaction you just will have unreacted product and there are there are some methods of analysis at the end that are low-tech things often I've sharp melting points you can do thin film and there's this guy from Fisher scientific next door who suggests he's got an analysis method that uses lasers somehow I just heard about this and I'm like super excited talk to because GCMs NMR is not something you're gonna be able to build in your basement but like lasers are so again I don't know how that works but again trying to build things on the front end doing good wet chemistry and so that analysis isn't necessary and then maybe if we can build an analysis unit that would like put in an extra layer that's where we are thank you and I think I'm out of time yeah so thank you all so much for coming I appreciate it and I'll be two doors down in just a little bit if you want to hang on one [Music]