BCOS Monero Village - Monero's Emerging Applications

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BCOS Monero Village - Monero's Emerging Applications
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I'm not fluffy pony sorry come on in everybody grab a seat my name is Mike savvy they flew me all the way in from Philly and boys my black folio tired all right actually uh you know what before we get started why you guys are getting a seat I just got to do one thing you guys are actually in for a treat I have for three ponies gonna make some really exciting announcement to bat Manero so hold on all right bye 20 Manero all right cool all right my bio is good all right so all right now my I I don't have much to sell except for some jokes I hope you guys laugh that's pretty much it I don't have any shit coins to show I'm my own shit coin show myself now my we took an Oprah on the way over here I just went ahead I don't seem to point this out it's kind of messed with my head a little bit so we're on the way here and came to a stop sign and we stopped but on the stop sign it was like I like vandalized but somebody put something on the stop sign to make the stop sign look like a met they made it so that the stop sign said stop great great idea that just means somebody's walking around a Las Vegas right now with a bunch of stickers they're just a rape on them thank like I don't could you imagine getting caught with like you're driving down the street cop pulls you over officer uh-huh license or registration hang on it's right here in the club box you go to open the whole bunch of like I don't know the gun fell out I'm like shot the cop then I have a bunch of like Huntly creep stickers fall out so now we've got the Rick jokes out of the way and the cops shooting jokes out of the way let's get in this crypto stuff I'm a realtor by trade so I sell houses to whoever stole wants to buy them yeah we don't sell them for Bitcoin just yet but uh honestly I'm looking for a different career okay I've been doing it for about 15 years and one of the biggest reasons I was just like I like people I just hate when people ask you stupid questions should they think that I should know like I'm a real estate agent I can tell you about value but when somebody says is there a lot of sex offenders in the neighborhood I just yeah they're everywhere like they'll come knock on your front door so I never happened anybody here I did I had a guy that came to knock on my front doors and I'm like I looked outside first he didn't have a clipboard and have a badge I'm like okay this guy might be okay I gotta open the door tells me he Steve the sex offender I said okay bye Steve the sex offender that was all our entire encounter but I looked them up online you know you can do this that's cyberstalk everybody I probably cyber stalker feel there's he lives in a house but right next door to him lives another sex offender like one 902 7 look this up on your phones if you don't believe me right actually by the way is anybody have you guys scared the shit out of me about coming to Def Con I don't have my like smart I bought one of these I'm scared to death oh shit I did the marriage fuck that ruined that one what up marijuana is legal in Las Vegas I just found out two days ago it does affect the memory anyway these guys I just kind of imagine like what was it like when these two sex offenders met because when I bought my house and I drove my motorcycle up the driveway for the first time my neighbor darted over because he has three motorcycles and we're like the best of friends now I don't wanna say that they're like these guys share like anything disgusting like nothing anything gross I just gotta imagine like hey I got a bunch of kids coming over next to him on a crayons do you think that you could I like when they call her another reason I kind of got into crypto honestly aside from just the money because one thing I believe about crypto is that I do believe that Bitcoin is going to eventually destroy the dollar because I personally destroyed thousands of dollars in crypto currency and if I can do it I know that together we can all do it well I did I was I got into crypto because it was kind of depressed and the community is really what brought me back out of my like funk all right and for anybody its felt that way I know what it feels like to be depressed and introverted not want to leave your house and it's hard it's it's even a little nerve-wracking just to kind of talk about some of the things that I felt like I went through but I want to share one of the things that really helped me in my depression so you know just personally like you can look this up online it's like I watched a lot of self-help videos jerk off encouragement like these girls look right at you and they're just like God and I'm like look I want another reason to be sad you know so I got in the crypt I was a little bit better it's true okay I just want to share this one last thing with you I I sold some Bitcoin last night to make some bad decisions and I've been apologizing to come in all fuckin morning like she's my wife honey I'm sorry I swear if you go back up I will never ever sell you again she still hasn't talked to me so I've been texting gold for like Hornung to just like it's a back up you gotta have a back up you know listen you fall in love this sort of things happen I will bring up our friend of mine I just want to tell you what why the what am i doing in Las Vegas I was brought here for a show that was called the crypto shit show it was just involved in something called the encrypt integrity show and we got a lot of really which whatever you can make of that what you need to but I'm here with a really good friend of mine named Ken Bozak Nathan Hawk from the IOT village who put this all together and Nate is like he doesn't want all this fame but he's he's
gonna at the very least get this credit that he wants to establish this thing where there's like bull dogs and crypto so that you're afraid to like like if you have something to show you're afraid to do it because there's people that are gonna come along and within three seconds go that's bullshit get that out of here and I'm you know yes we have a level of professionalism we have to keep it up from Philly okay we just won the Super Bowl and then three minutes after we won the Super Bowl a viral video of a guy went viral of him eating dog shit on the street okay so you gotta forgive me is I'm a little rough around the edges that guy wasn't me by the way but it's a little rough around the edges but I think and I think that's important like I when I was younger I'd give me a listen to rap awesome vol 3 are you okay well I'm 40 and I love the wu-tang clan if you haven't heard of them looked them up to a great group youngsters but I get up thinking if I was an up-and-coming rapper there's a lot of like scary names and stuff like that that was good rap named Ghostface nobody know this guy Ghostface Killah if you were an up-and-coming rapper would you like walk up to that guy and be like hey would you take my demo say mr. Ghostface Killah those are scary and intimidating names but man things have evolved it's the scariest name in the space right now is fluffy pony with that I like to bring out my new friend mr. fluffy groaning come on give it up from a fluffy pony I don't wanna knows real name no that's alright thanks for having me so I'm here to talk about manures and merging applications I actually know what that means so we're going to make this up as we go along I'm minutes before I am yes but they might be up to my normal standard of excellence but for those know I'm recorded spotty you may know me as fluffy pony you may also know me as that gigantic trouble and Twitter or all is that guy and why is he ruining manure for everyone I'm not the lead maintainer of the lead developer of mine error that's a fallacy a lie I'm also not the lead developer and I said that already I'm not the creator of man hero actor that's a Russian guy who called thankful for today we don't know who he really was we think he's Russian and he created an error in 2014 we had a little tiff with him off he went into the into the ether and probably went on to hack the American election so that's cool he see accomplished his life work life's work you can find me on Twitter and on reddit and more recently on Mastodon which is like decentralized Twitter because we decentralized all the things and there is my GPG fingerprint which is very important if you want to validate the Monaro binaries or if you're cool you'll just compiled from sorts so what I want to talk about is and they seems to be this desire to blockchain all the things and I think part of it is because Bitcoin was open source and so people realized they could just clone the repo at create prints campaign and that led to this desire to just make everything a token or it or shove stuff onto the blockchain and I've heard a bunch of ridiculous ideas over the past like seven years six seven years my favorite one is I read an article this is probably like three four years ago and it was all about how in emergency situations and this is true responders struggle to get hold of each other or to get hold of like the the joint operation center and whatever because the software networks are clogged up and sometimes they don't have access to radios they've only got their cell phone on them and now the software networks clogged up and so this article posited that we could use blockchain to fix that so you can't get on the internet but you can use the blockchain to fix the comms problem so you know I mean this is just one of many stupid ideas using blockchain and you know we're not gonna get away from them like people are going to pitch stupid ideas all the time but what I already want to get out of this talk I want what I want everyone here to get out of this talk is to think carefully especially if you're creating applications or if you're not creating applications if you're trying to break applications think carefully about what a blockchain is and how it applies because a blockchain is basically just a terribly scalable really slow really horrendously cranky database but it's also for some things it's always awesome if you need tamper resistance that's also if you need trust lessness that's awesome if you need some sort of like censorship resistance finality this is these all things that a blockchain can provide but it shouldn't be like the go-to and I think what I really wanted to sort of think about is this idea of tokens and you know why do we need a token in this application and why are you talking in that application and the reality is you probably don't need a token if you're creating an application although that seems to be the go-to and I think the reason it's go to you I think the reason why people try and model applications with the idea of a utility token is because they want to do a nice urine by a lambo and and I upload that I mean you know if that's your goal no problem it just be out write about it just be like we're doing or I see oh so Daddy can buy a new Lambo instead of being like we're doing your utility token so you know that said there are some I saw are some times where tokens are useful but before I get onto that side and they sometime they
sometimes they're inter cannot so I wanted to sort of just talk a little bit about some of the applications that have been built without requiring a token so things like obviously tall I mean what's the token that we use to pay tall rooters there we go but we don't there's no there's no token that runs ITP there's no token that runs free net there's no token that runs signal or wire or you know any of the the comms applications that we've become so accustomed to using you know OT r / r se is incredibly powerful and IRC itself is incredibly powerful as far as decentralized relatively decentralized federated protocols go and yet there's no token running that and even in the blockchain world the probably the first decentralized exchange is that Square which is now known as bisque and that's great like doesn't have a token it does have a token now but the token is just sort of a way to unlock certain things and they did that because they ran on a donation model for a long time and then decided to do there's like internal mechanic to to try and find some stuff and that's cool but the core functionality of bit square or bisque doesn't require token at all so tokens can be largely meaningless and yet there are situations where I can see that a token is useful and I think an example of this is of course counterparty which I value as a an extremely underutilized protocol and namecoin as well I can buy that and that there's a native token that is required for the functioning of that protocol but in general I don't think that that most applications need a token so if you're building on how do you build a Manero how do you live Richmond error so there's several ways of leveraging monaro and and I you know I've been thinking about this a lot over the past few years because I mean what's the point of programmable digital man--he for not programming it you know if what we're doing is just sending it around I mean that's cool there's nothing wrong with that but I mean we kind of want to take advantage of the fact that the stuffs digital otherwise we can just carry on using cash and I think that that some of the advantages of Manero and maybe the key advantage of Manero is that there's this massive grassroots movement and people are ideologically motivated so I think about miners as an example miners in Monaro and and this is certainly not across the board there is a massive cabal of miners who are motivated by profits they are mining because they want profit and yet if you look at the stats if you look at the the potential profit from mining Manero there are many times where maneras hash rate stays relatively stable even increases and yet at that point in time it's not profitable to mine Manero so I have to assume that they're either a bunch of and a bunch of miners who have extremely low electricity costs and their purchase their GPUs for like super cheap and that's certainly possible but I think the end of course we've got the botnets and thank you botnet operators who are here for supporting the Monaro Network I love your work I mean I don't but thank you for following the rules of the network but I think that there definitely is a there's a large group of miners who are purely ideologically motivated they're mining material because they believe in Manero they're not mining manure to sell and cover the electricity costs we're talking about people who have like three four five rigs at home they're covering that covering the electricity costs out of pocket and they could be selling the hash rate on nice ash they could be mining I don't know tattoo whatever coin is super profitable right now that's also a legit coin I found out the other day that coin base is thinking of adding thanks corn base and and you know yet they like there's this massive ideological core and I think that that's really powerful and so you're thinking of building applications on top of an arrow leverage that call there's all this talk about proof of work being and sustainable and destroying the environment and my wife's vegan so yeah I understand them hot bag destroying the environment and or the poor trees and all that I get it and so if you're bullying your application consider merge mining as a way of leveraging Meniere's proof of work with merge mining what you're doing is you're building your own chain but you don't have to go and recruit - you don't have to go and find miners and try and motivate them with profitable ideology or whatever you can just be like hey existing mineral miners would you like some extra tokens for free because that that's totally a thing you can do now with merge mining you do have a native token because you've got to incentivize pools to add support for your merge mined chain and that's cool but I think that there is massive benefit to that another component of this is of course if you do end up going down that road you build a merge mined application then you have to try and leverage the existing plumbing so you obviously want to do things like Oh atomic swaps so atomic swaps can be achieved in two ways using existing plumbing there's hash time lock contracts it's hash time locked contracts HT LCS and of course lightning now an arrow has support from neither of those so it has existing plumbing I mean existing plumbing in the world not existing climbing a mineral yet but we are working towards adding hdl-c support and adding lightning support there are multiple groups that are focused on that and I think it's something that is achievable within the next sort of 12 to 24 months and then we'll have the planning in the infrastructure for easy and virtually free atomic swaps between Manero and other coins now there is of course a application that is being built called tari that is being built on top of manera and this is something that I'm deeply involved in I'm one of the founders along with my co-founders dan and Naveen and I wanted to talk a little bit about Tori is like a case study because again we thought about many things that we can leverage and we are leveraging the stuff I've just described merge mining and we're trying to Atari labs or trying to support HDL CS and lightning on manera as particularly as a mechanism for atomic swaps and lining up courses great from a scaling and privacy enhancement perspective but you might wonder why we rejected other ways of building a top of Minerva Atari and and this is certainly I mean the Atari design is certainly not set in stone but we thought about other things for example mineiro transactions have this little field cook TX extra and you can basically just shove whatever data you want into TX extra and it's not at no cost you're paying a transaction cost per byte so it's not free to shove data in the blockchain but you could ostensibly like you could build a service that uses the Monaro blockchain and backs up your entire computer - if you're so inclined I wouldn't advise doing that because it would be horribly expensive but it is certainly something you can do the problem with TX extra and this is something we've realized over year over the past few years especially the Monaro Research Lab guys is that TX extra only works really well if it's uniform otherwise your transaction starts sticking out and so you know you're busy shoving data into TX extra and now everyone can pinpoint your transactions and now they start being able to perform large data analysis and that's not great so we're working towards I think as a as a development workgroup and as a group of researchers we're constantly working towards ways of creating transaction uniformity and so anything like that would break transaction uniformity and so we kind of have rejected TX extra as a way of building on top of an error and and instead gone the sort of merge mining routes it's something to consider if you are building an application in terms of
of tari and of what we're building so Tory is a decentralized assets protocol so in many ways we think of it as like this spiritual I guess virtual successor to counterparty or spiritual sister to counterparty counterparties both on top of Bitcoin and Ataris built on top of Manero and the whole idea is that there are natively digital assets that could benefit from a blockchain like structure so think about things like in-game assets in game tokens loyalty points tickets I SEOs and other things and of course like one of the one of the most exciting things is if you think about like in-game assets in in-game tokens so if you're like World of Warcraft player and you spend a bunch of time building up your character and you just played and played and played and now your character is like really built up and it's worth a ton of money and you're bored of World of Warcraft and you want to go play fortnight or whatever it would be great if there was a dicks where you could like sell some of your World of Warcraft stuff and buy some fortnight stuff or you know just move from one game to another as like a you know you're not a pro gamer but you I play you know on weekends and you enjoy it and you've spent you've invested time and you you've maybe invested money and being able to like perform that lateral shift from one game to another in the permissionless environment would be great so these are things that we're thinking about that that we think tari will enable and tari the way we're trying to build it is in a decentralized manner so we're taking a leaf out of Meniere's playbook and the design isn't set in store and like I said we have a bunch of ideas we have a community that's forming around tari we have a company in South Africa called tari labs that is has a bunch of developers and researchers that we've hired pretty recently over the past three months and those developers and researchers will be contributing to the Tauri project as well a whole bunch of other people in the ecosystem there's some Manero people who will be contributing to both Mineiro and tari and there's some party labs employees that are going to be focusing on Manero as well and I think that this is an interesting or an interesting fact pattern in terms of building a decentralized application because it means that we're not the source of all knowledge we're not saying yes our whitepaper go forth and we're gonna go forth and build we're saying like we have this cool idea we have some ideas about how to build it and where we've got some resources we can leverage but ultimately we need a community to build it and in many ways that community is something that that rises up out of the the larger Mineiro community with our poaching resources from the Monaro immunity because we're able to feedback and and share resources as much as possible but this is an application that leverages maneras existing technology or existing existing security model rather but we're able to play around from a technology perspective so you know we've looked at things like DAGs and we've looked at we're very excited about like mumble mumble as the technology and we think that mumble mumble can be leveraged because the whole idea of number one bull really is let's put as little information onto the blockchain as possible like what is the smallest nugget of information that you need for a transaction how about just a unique identifier and that's it and that's a really powerful thing that we're trying to leverage and then of course lightning and other scalability solutions and and I think what's really interesting about this is that we can potentially create a fact pattern for other projects that want to build on top of Manero to imitate they can come into the fold and they can go oh cool that's the way we should be building things not let's write a white paper let's do an IC o---- and and then that's centrally issue our security token which totally is in the security token that's utility talk and I promise SEC you know it's it's like yeah as a fact pattern that might actually work and so I think that's kind of exciting and I think this is this could be the start of a new class of applications emerging that are built on top of Manero and one of the most exciting things about building on top of Manero and about inheriting that user base in that community is that there's a culture in Manero that is unavoidable and that is a culture of privacy first of privacy being a basic human rights and a basic tenant of the application that you're building and I think that that is something that you know if you're building on etherion you're thinking we'll computer and purple cat t-shirts and if you're building on top of Monaro you're just like paranoid constantly and so yeah so you you end up with this amazing culture of like I want to protect myself I want to protect the other people that are using this tool I want to protect the user base and I think if that's the one key takeaway from today if you're building stuff it's you've got to be users first so to sum up some of the things blockchains are mad hype right now if you're working for a company you probably have been told hey should we investigate blockchain technology but mom and I think to some degree you can leverage that you know if you're working at a company if you're working at a tech company or a security company if you're a pen tester and whatever if you're a red teamer you're red teamers then you know you can think about ways of of leveraging that mad hype and being like hey we should investigate ways of breaking all the scam coins out there because we can get paid by shorting them when they break if you are bullier decentralized app you probably don't need a blockchain think about models like that square disk think about things like tour and ITP think about all the things that have been built thus far that doesn't need a blockchain and yet are decentralized all the tokens can be useful especially in merged mining scenarios but it's imperative to first try a less constrained model because tokens also add a bunch of complexity incentives are really hard and and honestly stuff like manure and Bitcoin is it's not just like I slap a token and as an offer if you go to the races I mean there's this delicate balance of incentives game theory cryptography and you know just pure unadulterated code and you will try and like balance all these components and all these different people in the ecosystem and the minute you stop a token on something had this complexity and the reality is that users don't care about your tokens so a case in point and this is not to knock any other project but a case in point is bat I the basic attention token I love brave the browser I think brave is an excellent effort at building a browser that is user user focused and and to some degree privacy focused and I love the work that they're doing they and yet they've got this like token that they did a nice year with and then they bought this whole little like in browser token thing where when you're browsing someone else's content and that person wants to get paid for the content and you can some bat and it's ready it's it's a nifty little thing that you can build into it the problem is that people aren't gonna go buy bat rights so they airdrop that unto you people that installed brave and then when those people ran out of bats because they were sending it to people when they watch videos and read articles they weren't really incentivized to go buy more so you know it's like well congratulations you've built a reasonable token economy and yet users are just not incentivized to buy more and I mean what are they going to do are they gonna go tell their boss this and when you pay me my salary at the end of the month please put 0.5 percent in bat so that I can use my browser I mean it's just not feasible so it's it's unfortunate but token economics are really hard and users don't care about token they don't want to have a playthrough of tokens no user wants to be browsing and then her QR code and then pull out their phone and
scan and then I'll just plug in the hardware wallet and you know then they're they're able to do things it's not a good user experience right now and you also don't need to invent a new security model unless you're I or attend
one or in a pony award I mean and then go ahead write everything in trying to be and get an AI to invent your hash function if you have a token take advantage of existing plumbing so stuff like HT LCS which are being leveraged pretty widely for atomic swaps and then of course lightning which is being leveraged for everything for privacy for
lapse for lightning apps and obviously
for scalability and above all defend your users first make money second I think that this is probably the most important thing that I've learned from
working from an arrow over the past four years is you will make money if if you're focused on building a product that is amazing for your users for the people that that are using that application and I think that we're in an incredibly nascent space where everyone has the potential to make a bunch of money and buy their or an expensive watch but we've we've got to build applications that protect our users first you know like making money you should be a secondary concern it'll come but the the focus has to be on on protecting users and that dogfooding you know use the stuff yourself see where it breaks like hate yourself for for making that mistake and this other mistake and then go and fix it and I think that's when an error needs most of all right now is just more people improving the user experience because we've got the privacy stuff done okay we're doing okay there we've got the security stuff okay we've got the decentralization stuff okay but the user experience kind of sucks and there are a lot of people working on it but you know if you haven't played on the Monaro codebase now's a good time to learn so that's all I have to say thank you very much for listening listening to me ramble and I guess now we'll take questions oh good no questions there's a question at the back there by the back pocket pony thanks for doing the talk yeah thanks what do you you talked about atomic swaps oh I've heard some other
conversations about what's needed kind of like what the underlying cryptography needs to be invented or researched for that to be able to happen could you talk a little more about that so I think the underlying court ography largely exists there's a bunch of stuff that I mean we don't really have like op codes in manera for obvious reasons it's extremely stripped-down and I think that that's probably one of the key things is not not a sort of generalized opcode but you know we can do a specific type of opcode that is specifically for HT LCS so I think there's just some planning that needs to be done there we have multi-sig which was of course a big component in pretty much everything and multi SIG's utilize all leveraged in a lot of hdl-c type applications and things like zero nor in zero knowledge contingent payments all a lot of the stuff leverages multi-sig so you know now that we've got that it's sort of time to take the next step but that the in terms of like the cryptography I think we're largely there next question oh cool answer difference questions yes they're like a child you're trying to have a favorite I love them all equally poor sure so I think there were a couple of things I think that the there you know the the first thing is stuff I've been thinking about is how do people earn Manero how do they acquire Manero I think that that if we if we create a culture where it's like oh you know congratulations you're not using manure please swipe your credit card that's not ideal and I think we can create models where people earn Manero so I was thinking the other day like what's the fiber of Manero you know like like how we how are we building tools that enable people to earn manure what's the Mechanical Turk of Manero there isn't anything that that that's solving for that really so I think I mean there's probably some SEO that is like there isn't it isn't anything really cool that people are building that that enables that so I think that's the first step is getting people on board from an acquisition perspective but doing so in a decentralized manner you know like getting them to earn manera without needing to go to some central repository in swiped a credit card or use PayPal heaven forbid and the data goes to 600 companies in Europe and and then of course like from a UX perspective just that like walking people through you know like they fire up the application there's all this terminology they've never never heard of before you know what's a view key like what's what and my favorite I didn't realize this but I was in Panama for a few days and I was chatting to two regulators and I kept using the term an address I was like and then you just send to that person's Manero address or their bitcoin address and after like 30 minutes someone put their hand up and there was like so is an address like their postal address I was like wow okay oh that's the level we're paying up and and I think that we you know there's just this terminology that we just take for granted you know you fire it up and then it's like Oh sinking blockchain if sorry what connected rupiah's you know like none of this stuff makes sense to people we've got to either changing the terminology which I don't think is gonna happen we went through a phase where we try to change the terminology from address to account you know this human error account we thought that was better terminology did not take and and even if it is better terminology like no one's gonna use it you know addresses the thing that everyone uses while it's is the thing that everyone uses so fine we're gonna use these terms but let's try and define them you know maybe we can have overlays the first time you hit a screen maybe it can be like a little overlay that describes some of the elements just anything to try and get people through and I think we'll get there eventually but yeah it's I like the for a new and newcomer who's new to crypto the UX is just bad all around sure um so that's a question I think that that anything that helps people earn Manero doesn't look firstly doesn't have to be Manero specific it can be sort of a more generalized crypto thing one of the things we've done a globey is will ingest all of the scam coins no problem you can pay in ripple even ripple you maybe we'll even add verge but in terms of being settled you can only be settled in Bitcoin and Mineiro and fiat so that's massive because then it becomes a funnel it's a cool pay us and ripple but we'll just convert that to Bitcoin no Manero for the person like when no one's keeping ruble so I think that's really powerful XRP the standard I think that's really powerful and I think an application that lets people earn manera can do the same thing you know it can be like pay people to do jobs in any currency and and then settle them in Bitcoin Oh Manero or just manure whichever and I think that there's lots of scope for you know you can go do VC like no problem with that and and I think that given the the conversations that we had with VC firms about Ari and the fact that we were able to raise money from Tier one venture capital firms like Trinity and redpoint and slow ventures and all of those guys I think they've come to some sort of appreciation of Manero the technology and the fact that that it's not going anyway despite a whole bunch of people's desires and so there's some this tastic respectful Minero so you know go build something and go raise VC if that's what you need to do or just people tell me in your garage do it after hours I mean have a side hustle I have side hustles for ages and they're great and and you know I think like one of the most powerful things there is building an open-source application and doing it in a decent in a sort of semi decentralized manner just open up a github repo start an IRC channel invite some people in get the conversation going start a subreddit and just keep get people helping out chipping in and helping out pick a technology stack whatever that is you know go no js' rest whatever build your application and and and people will pitch up and hope if it's the right application that's the right group of people cool so I think to answer your question I'm I don't know is everyone familiar with eternal September so a turtle September is this thing where like the internet used to be cool and underground and then AOL came out and just shot a bunch of of CDs and suddenly a bunch of people got online in September of like I don't know when it was September of 93 or 94 whenever was and suddenly the Internet and IRC in particular went from being like this cool underground place to like a whole bunch of kids coming in and they didn't know the lingo and they didn't know the parlance and you know they were like all these and like like running jokes that they didn't get and the culture was like all sort of like upset you know the apple cart was upset and I think one of the the most telling things was if you were on IRC in the early days like nobody pretended to be someone they weren't like people would you would go to meetups and people would be the same at meetups as there were an RC there was no catfishing there was none of that people just like stupidly inherently trust in everyone over IRC can you imagine doing that today you know it was like oh man you know I'd love to come meet you but I can't play for the pay pay for the plane ticket can you wire me some money sure no problem I mean that was a legit thing that happened and then eternal September happened and that just ruined it for everyone and I think that that to some degree as the Monaro community itself gets bigger and as you know it sort of tari grows and we start hitting more mainstream participants or more mainstream people then yes we are gonna have our own eternal September and I think to some degree like like I realized that last year with the consensus announcement which I thought was hilarious and a whole bunch of people didn't and you know in in jokes that don't always carry when the audience gets bigger and I think that we are gonna face that in waves as people come in you know there'll be an article published about Manero funding terrorism in North Korea and then a whole bunch of people will buy Manero or whatever and and then they're they're gonna pitch up because they think Monroe's gonna get big and they want to earn money and they want to buy a watch and you're not gonna be able to control that you're not gonna be able to stop those people from coming in but I think what we can do and what we have already is a culture that carries we have a culture where people come in and they're like when lambo and everyone goes shut up go to you know Minerva Christ talk or whatever and they get shuffled to different areas where they can't go and post means where they can go and talk about price and whatever and it leaves the the sort of the the main therapy is the main areas where people chat about Manero largely free of that sort of thing and that's really powerful and I think as long as we continue pushing people into different areas then then that'll be the best way to try and stave off eternal September for as long as possible yes oh no no that's fine at consensus last year which is a conference in New York I made an announcement which was a fake announcement I announced the manure Enterprise Alliance which doesn't exist and I lied you see a yeah you are using a trustless digital currency and yet you trusted someone rookie mistake but anyway yeah and I took a lot of heat from that not not so much from people who'd been in the mirror community for a long time because they found it hilarious but there were people that on the wake of the Oh on the expectation of the announcement bought Manero and you know like and and I like I mean I'm sorry that sucks for them but like it wasn't my intention to try and sort of upset the market and yet that's what happened so it's I think my point really was was largely about just as the community gets bigger it just becomes harder and harder to try and to try and manage their expectations and to have enjoyed continue to run so regulators regulators are interesting I mean some of them have well there's two things the first is that a lot of regulators not so much in Panama because they have a fantastic banking infrastructure but in Venezuela there were a lot of politicians that loved Manero and surprisingly so that they can keep all this stuff hidden and and so there's a lot of like well we like Manero for our own use but we don't want the people down there using it because we want to be able to extract blood and and I you know it's a little it's very two-faced and so then they but they don't express concerns that way they like all we really like him an error but we're deeply concerned about its ability to fund terrorism and send money to North Korea and I'm like yes I'm deeply concerned about cash as well gold bars those are the problems expensive wristwatches we should stop sending those to North Korea and so you know I mean it's huge but I have those conversations I tend to whenever regulators talk to me and they say oh we're concerned about the potential for using material for X I just repeat the thing back at them but you replace the word manure with cash I'm like yes I am also concerned about cash being used for that cash is indeed bad and they get they get the idea it takes him a few tries before they realize what's happening is that too cool thank you very much [Applause]