The Enemy

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The Enemy
War, Journalism, VR
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You are free to use, adapt and copy, distribute and transmit the work or content in adapted or unchanged form for any legal purpose as long as the work is attributed to the author in the manner specified by the author or licensor.
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The Enemy brings you face-to-face with combatants from three conflict zones: with the Maras in Salvador, in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and in Israel and Palestine. Their testimonies and confessions about their lives, experiences, and perspectives on war will allow you to better understand their motivations… and their humanity.
Keywords Art, Culture

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[Music] so I'm very happy to introduce to you the speaker of this talk the title is the enemy which is quite interesting obvious strange title so it's it's really interesting what's gonna happen and the man who's standing next to me and has been standing two people which I wouldn't like to stand next to probably and I'm also already afraid of this if I
see them on TV he's been a photographer and war zones all over the world for a long long time and I'm very happy that he's here today please welcome and give a nice applause to Kareem Ben Khalifa [Music] thank you very much Thank You Nikolai
Thank You Don for inviting me had to be here last year at family events just prevented this I'm very happy to be here this year I'm gonna keep it silent and let you read this
a bit of war correspondence for the last 20 years I am Belgium Tunisian and the
photojournalist itself using my camera and and traveling - as mentioned earlier some of the darkest place in this world I've worked for the best magazines Vanity Fair the New York Times Magazine Lamont stone here in Germany covering numerous conflicts and with those magazines that's what a photojournalist want to do with those magazines I've reached the best audiences I mean in my field they are educated they have the right to vote they have a financial power so those are the people I wanted to talk to and present them with my work through those magazines I even put some awards for my work so I was exactly where I wanted to be when I started so let's back up a bit here why did I do this job and I'm often asked the question why do you go to Wars and why do you do so I think in my case it is always different reasons but I think in my case one thing was very instrumental in bringing some curiosity about wars and and in the world I don't know if you
know euronews it's a news channel every half an hour you have the news but they have a short program and this is it no comment and when I was a kid I mean our kids when I was 16 17 18 I was fascinated by the no comments and why was I expansion aided because for once nobody tells me what to think and I would look at it and I wouldn't find I wouldn't know who's right who's wrong the only information in back in the days was up in the corner would be the date and but there would be no voice over telling me what's going on and usually that's the big news of the day and that's right before the news so I would find out after what was happening and it's often Wars disasters and until the document thinks the no voice over triggered my curiosity and I started looking at it trying to figure out what was happening and then I was trying to think what is outside of that frame that I don't see and that really created for me high sense of curiosity and eventually I went there I went myself to see what was outside of this frame and see what I would do so I wasn't doing video I was doing photography so that was years
later that was actually 20 years ago I was a war in Kosovo was raging and about the tickets and I went to Tirana in Albania there I met with young kids coming from the UK from Switzerland from Germany young Kosovo that were coming to join the guerrilla Tara made friends with them trying to understand the motivation and then they went through training because of course they were not trained to be garel a fighter and I went to the witness their training and eventually I crossed the border with them so those are the moments when you start feeling are you cut or not for this kind of job walking through a minefield on the border with Serbian snipers and really putting your feet exactly where the guy behind in front of you has put his feet and in witnessing him and this was August 1998 so let me remind you a little bit about this war NATO came in but that was in 99 and that was in March 99 so I had about six months to understand the ground understand the people understand the situation and then from there when the story became huge because not all was coming in because terminus was coming from all over the world to cover the first NATO operation of I was ready I knew the place I could move around I had contact and yeah this was my first war which leads me to probably show you some photograph from
that [Music] you you you you and then there was Somalia North Korea
Yemen Syria Afghanistan Lebanon I was traveling I was working for magazines I was doing the job I wanted the word Iraq was really tough it was a cows operate
very well in cows but anthing honestly I've seen too much down I've seen too much violence too many people died and it had a profound effect on my ability
to work my problem was I cannot do anything else and this is the second and last slideshow I'm going to show you about my work then tell you about what I do today
[Music] you you you you you and then there was Somalia North Korea Yemen Syria Afghanistan Lebanon I was traveling I was working for magazines I was doing the job I wanted the word Iraq was really tough it was a cows operate very well in cows but I think honestly I've seen too much there I've seen too much violence too many people died and it had a profound effect you you you you you you you
in 2009 after an assignment for Vanity Fair in the Gaza Strip I was in Gaza City and I had decided to stay a bit longer I was trying to find walk in the story and I was with a group of giv Slavic fighters and it was an open space was building around about me up at that space is pretty big and there were some trees and it was building around but it was also one more thing it was a huge hall and this very characteristic hole of a bumping you know what kind of a cone upside down and I was with the fighters and I asked what happened there and they told me that couple of days before earlier one of the group was wiped out by bombing from Israel of course when I look at the fighters I'd have found them very young and I thought those must have been the kids that were in Gaza when I came here for the first time so the circle of violence suddenly appeared to me and I just keep thinking another why do people accept me farg??th especially civilians why do they accept my presence and me for a gothic them do they just for witness to their misery or do they hope that witness can actually change something and I'll tell you it's the letter they think they hoped I could do something the reality is I cannot I'm facing a system the media and with this camera moral contract and every time I was undergone after this I had this more contract coming up to my mind and I realized it would be really hard for me to keep doing this and so was this kept going this is the impossible moral contract
I couldn't grow well I couldn't simply so the very same day I was there and you've seen what I do in photograph more wide-angle try to be with the people and
in there I did something I'm not a portrait photographer but I turned my camera I put it this way and I shot photos of the fighters that I was there and I had a recorder and I asked them six questions who's your enemy why did you ever kill him what is violence to you what is peace to you and why do you see yourself in 20 years from now I was trying to rethink my journalism at that point I went to South Sudan and to Kashmir and
this is what it looked like on paper but in my mind it was not to be put on paper it was to be put in a room where those two enemies would look at each other and I would draw a border on the ground and when you would cross the border and go close to one of those guys and close up the photograph of course you would hear him answering the questions and when you would cross the border on the other side you would hear is the enemy entering exactly the same questions so now let's go back to those questions six questions very simple you heard them before but they're two kind of questions the three first question it's about the other who's your enemy why and did you ever kill him the three lasts questions about themself what is violence to you what is peace to you and why do you see yourself in 20 years from now there was
one thing as a war correspondent going from one side to the other I would always even eyes the people are worse ways and not because I had to make this effort just because I had even in front of me and you know as a photojournalist you can only do photograph but as you will be on the ground you hear those people you hear them talking about their family you heard them talking about their dreams their fears and they suddenly appear extremely human and I was wondering how can I do this how can I translate that and who should see that if I do it there was another publication foreign policy magazine in the US
someone's recharging my journalism and I'll tell you I've been struggling with this work eventually I did three parts but when I went to the magazine that I was working with they look at it and I
says are you out of your mind this is too arty this is it's arty okay I've got to go to the art world and when I go to the art well this is like you your mind this is way to war and started telling it was like no that's not for us so I financed it myself eventually loom old in Paris understood in a bit you saw the publication here and they helped me to do the last parts but I was in the process of trying to recharge my journalism I was in a process to try to do something for this moral contract I didn't told you but I was a kicked out of school maybe you figured that out already I was 18 out that something beautiful happens in 2012 I was invited
at Harvard University I'm gonna make a little story here but I called my dad and says dad I'm going to Harvard University he says are you gonna pay for
that well actually giving me a hundred thousand dollars to spend a year there was the kids you never managed to pass an exam was like there is no exam I don't need to go through exams it's a dedicated email says yeah while that might be now Julia trying to scam you down elsewhere that email three months later my dad was there with me extremely proud because in my family we don't have an education my dad didn't had a choice to have an education now heads but I was too distracted let's put it this way so I spent a year there and you understood that I like to go where I don't belong that's really part of my DNA so then I went to the Harvard Business School that's the last place I should be was very interesting especially their corporate social responsibility I went to the Innovation Lab digital marketing strategies honestly I didn't understood everything they were talking about but I get one thing from there the language the language D using very useful if you want to tart and talk to people that can finance your work from there my luck wasn't over I was invited that the MIT I
finally stayed four years at MIT and the help we produce and think and design the enemy which I'm about to start talking
about and that was in 2013 and three weeks into my fellowship at the Media Lab we always receive invitation for new hardware's new companies that want to demo their works they outside of the MIT but want to bring people from the MIT to show what they do and there I went I was invited to meet people from a small company called oculus it was still small back in the days and that's the guy
right before me I was like my god I'm like I'm bloated it's not the upper side of a lot I'm like really I was like this is weird it was my turn after and because I've made you a few confidence I'm gonna make one more I have vertigo I could go to a frontline but I had vertigo and I was really unlucky that
day because when I put this I was on the side of a mountain well I was sitting at MIT but I was on the side of a mountain and looked down and I've done the vertical coming in me two minutes remove the headset I don't like to have vertigo so we moved the headsets then thank you very much I walked out I didn't walked out for a long time I came back 15 minutes later and at the end of I had this project it's called portrait of the enemies it's to photograph there is a ball in between well let me catch all that can I put the people in a room would it be possible was that technology back in 2013 they were like scratching their heads as I guess yeah that should be possible might be fairly expensive but this is possible at that point I had zero funding I didn't really have a project losses I don't care if it's expensive what's she after but can we do that okay so I started investigating and I start thinking about what it would look like and definitely I was really interested to see what would happen to journalism if the people I meet are actually in the front of the audience because right now you figure out who arrives through what I say but also through my body language and what would happens if you got those fighters very front of you that's threatening you just the question you know about what would
happen to Judaism I'll tell you after
[Music] to [Music]
the enemy was born out of my frustration
as a photojournalist and more
correspondent for almost 20 years I have photographed conflicts and witnessed the
consequences of huge geopolitical shifts [Music] when I became a father I simply knew I could not keep working on the front
lines yet I was not done trying to
understand wars
[Music] [Applause]
[Music] or never worker Genova a new walk [Music] my friends in Israel when they know I'm
heading for Gaza can't help themselves
but to wish me luck interests they safe
they believe a lot of people in Gaza I irrational also when I spent weeks
working in Gaza and I'm about to return
to Israel my Palestinian friends are telling me the exact same thing be
careful there the project is rooted in my experience as a war photographer going from one side of the frontline to the other and finding that the fighters dreams hopes
and nightmares often more similar and
they are different so there is a bigger
story than the war itself and this is
the one I want to explore and share for the enemy I am using the latest
technologies in virtual and augmented realities so you can engage directly
with the combatants and meet them hear
them and feel them the way I did in many
part of our walls you created an enemy as a kid without having met your enemy
because the society around you has
created an enemy in the other
so the question is could I be you if I was on the other side [Music] so from 2013 it took four years to do that because it didn't existence there
was no way I had to go to Gaza I had to go to Salvador to Congo I needed a portable studio I needed you know we heard of 360 video I do the opposite I do zero degrees all the cameras are pointing at my protagonists recording every single of their move scanning their body making a lot of photograph and then rebuilding the whole thing nothing like this existed so we had to kind of play around and I surrounded myself with the people who can actually help me doing this and trying to get engaged with journalism in a very different way and trying to push the boundaries of what I do my idea was this also was this more on contract you remember who should see this work who can have an impact if they look at this who can change the situation and obviously it's great to be in New York or it's great to be in oil or in Paris so in Germany but people who can really make a difference at the next generation of fighters so we've been working and trying to push that there as much as we could I need to say thank you to come eval you see des it's a production company they had no idea why they were going into I had no idea neither and then sticked with me at the end when it took four years and then all the other
partners and interestingly enough it's not a single media in this mr. newspaper or magazine but though the organisation that care about journalism and as we wanted to push it a bit further we talked about this maybe I should show you a bit what it looks like inside keep your ID because I've bringing you to Gaza or to Salvador to Congo but I bring you the protagonist let's just short extract it's a 300 meter square installation its military zur 20 people at the same time you walk the space and at some point you end up in between two fighters and you gotta make a choice who are you going to listen first and what does it look like from the outside [Music] backpack tracking system all of this is super expensive of course not only the hardware able to produce what was inside we got 20 people in nobody's touching each other because we created a transparent avatar with an oculus so you see the other users there absolutely an interesting so you keep on being focus in the content but this is heavy to move an expensive to move we have dual all this content and so I propose at some
point in the project to reach this new audience the next generation of fighters to create an Augmented Reality up that people could download that will be for free on the App Store on earth store and where you would have the same content and where you could listen to the same interview so at the end you'll see the website of the of the project and from there you can get a link and download it if you interested and then suddenly we
can bring this in different places I mean we don't have to bring that the
people are taking it themselves it's the final version of the app let me
load see they have a busy be irrational Chassagne elected or visible me Leela tada [Music]
the West here to aid the seeker by dr. John Coffey the presence / - soldier give it your all for me [Music]
abbo Hallett ketone in me ibaka and we
were right to do this the app has been downloaded and 102 countries and of course I could not bring the VR in 102 countries and it's very interesting to see that suddenly organization working on reconciliation are using the work to trigger the conversation and I think journalism doesn't need to be exactly this but can also be that and so for people that are less experienced I mean I think this room is literacy in in media is really high but what if you bring young people from Congo in the VR they're gonna be lost in this they don't have the same literacy we have but if you bring on an iPad or on a phone in his own surrounding in his village or in the city his enemy there where he is it becomes extremely powerful and it triggers conversation and when those conversations are followed with reconciliation or peace building organization then we start moving a bit further and humanism can help that lesson learned you guys have learned a lot of things too in this and start by saying um I think journalism is extremely important to bring another
point of view and when we see what's happening in the world today journalism is more than ever very important and I'm committed in my own capacity to innovate and push the boundaries and try to find solutions for younger generation to be you know taking journalism and as a matter of fact we put schools through the 50 minutes experience of the VR and for 50 minutes they're listening to those people and they're coming out in the understood it's without a snapshot without being interrupted with their phones 50 minutes it's something that we don't see so much anymore especially with younger generation they said we really need to experiment with journalism and this is what I've realized by pushing boundaries and see what sticks on the wall what works what doesn't work and what I like to say is
the frustration that I had in my work have become my engine to try to change the things I've also started thinking very differently now I know we know like high tech and of a conference but for me the story first who do you want to tell
the story to and what would be the best medium to tell that story when I was a photojournalist it would be exactly the other way around the medium would like that's it magazines and then the audience we know who they are and then you push the story through that tube I completely changed ads you know you understood it 300 meter square installation where you need to walk where you get closer to the fighters they engage in you in the eyes the staring at you they're talking directly to you even though I'm the one who has the questions but if you think about it Judaism is very passive you turn the radio in your car in your kitchen you read the magazine in the comfortable couch you turn the TV on maybe in your bedroom or in your living room but it's massive I mean beside the fact that you turn it on then boom give it to you this is becoming active you going through a hundred percent of what I wanted to tell you but you're doing on your own terms whenever you want maybe you want to go and listen to this guy first as opposed to the other one and that's change something fundamentally in journalism and in my work and I realized it as I was doing it and so accorded this Frye's wrote that
people are talking when they believe the enemy they're talking of an experience they're not talking of a storytelling they have the memory of having met some people and I find this is very interesting because an experience is stronger than a story and for a storyteller is good to find out now how the challenge will be to create more
experience in which people are feeling the same things but it's very interesting to to work in that directions the enemy calls on your instinct and and and the instance makes you feel the experience so what happened when Julius becomes an
experience I'm not really sure I don't know how that affects the memory I don't know how much that change your point of view the only thing I can tell you is the debrief I have of my audience and it's very very interesting I have a testimony that I'm gonna put in a few seconds I'm getting at the end of the of the talk you remember that sentence at the start I've put it again here and without there the mechanic 40-some secure behind by
mental aho aho aho there's among some disability comes to us on your stove which belongs professional factor gamma Levin change
solution you know come on we must rule we shall not kill losing to him should connect it down oh yeah give you a whole kilo just like a mega top which is divine and also their mom is like she don't come don't come taste of lamb with malaria so far very small talk the most uncommon what Salva Vanya and that was a
presentation in it Israel it was fascinating to see young Israeli walking
towards a pilot the student fighter from Gaza because they can not do that anywhere there's no way they would kill each other when would should but they're listening and going and the physicality has really become that to an experiential level and this young man is in the military and suddenly has another point of view and suddenly realized the other one is way more similar than he thought or that has been taught thank you very much this is the end of my talk and I think we've got a few minutes of Q&A
[Music] thank you so much my pleasure so I still
got shivers in those mind sorry whoa amazing okay you have the chance to ask questions please just go up to a microphone and be patient I will call you up as soon as I can and I have first question over there at number five please a question yes thanks for the talks thanks for the work first its bit
of a naive question yeah yeah sorry yeah I was wondering how to make it as efficient as possible so you were talking about who the audience is and I was wondering should it be the next generation of fighter the person who is inviting them to become a fighter and then I thought okay that's in very key places now but I'm French I was supposed to be doing military service if I wanted to but I cannot imagine French military when I have the possibility to decide to do military service or not to show me an experience like this god I wish they would well a little addict thought maybe that's gonna help I tried that question what were presented in Israel at some point my team comes and says Karen it's a couple of militaries they're in the line to do the enemy what do we do I was like what what do you mean what do we do it's a pleasure to have them in and they worked for the Israeli Defense Force Academy they went through we're obviously very impressed was a young guy and an older guy and the young guy takes me apart and says you know have you been to but he says that's really a way from his boss and then I talk was the boss and pushing that a bit further seems interested in assess you know would be a pleasure to play this to the Academy that's really bringing a wolf into a sheep house and they give me honestly the best compliment I could have from the military the cells we're not in the same business meaning I'm realizing and they need to make sure that cannot shoot a bow harlots and that for me while the military says that I think I want to something interesting thank you for the question okay so next question I'll
start from the back I have seen you number three please first of all I think it's experienced when people experience the ER but before it's an experience
it's still a story right because you as the artist creates a story for the people to have an experience so it's still a story just a different kind of technological possibility to participate or to view it or really good engage exactly so my question is I'm wondering and this is a general question I have concerning this kind of we are and the idea of being able to force experiencing empathy with VR so my question is isn't there a danger in that sense that now I can only engage in the story by being part of it and not by experiencing the other as the other so empathy is not about feeling something for the other person but it's just always something I can feel and I can act on as being part of it and I wonder whether there is a sort of danger there I see the possibilities but as wonder whether it's more and more kind of ecocide even more egocentric point of view afterwards I think there was two things I want to sever this first one I don't use the word empathy thing is I started using it with this work and when I was at MIT MIT being in MIT I start talking about this and I discover as of today scientifically there is seven kind of empathy you carry some empathy that might be different from the person that is next to you maybe he's got more maybe cut less that's a carrot Arial empathy situational empathy contextual say empathy there is a lot of things and I even tell you the worse is you can go the opposite what you want it meaning you create empathy for your own people against the other so there is a danger using this words I'm using a word that is much more charged in terms of religion but one lack of a better one it's compassion or I'll twist and trying to bring this to the to the people but so that won't one thing it to really clearly answer your question I think yes of course it's hard coded of course it's a story you're absolutely right I'm not pretending it's anything else than this happened that the story has become experiencial and I'm not saying this that's my audience that says that and there is a danger of course but if you think about the TV and how it has brainwashed millions of people well yes no I still use the word couch potato I mean there was a lots and if you look if you go I'm not gonna stereotype here but if you go in the u.s. in the no-tell and you start zapping my god like what is there that it really brings a critical mind what I'm trying to bring here is the critical mind it's put the position in between two people where people are not telling them who's right and who's wrong I let the audience decide what they have to take out of this and to finish answering your question yes of course there is a danger because if you can do this you can do the exact opposite and I have way less budgets than you know Arby's the u.s. I'll be the UK Germany thank you for your question I hope it helps okay um do you know my
common place you see my spell you know what spy you and I need crayon this evening yeah no much baby do what a question you'll bring you together to people they see the enemy notice their enemy anymore this might actually I would say prevent further animosities but what about the government's order the parties that actually want to read this war did you ever have problems with
them that was one of the reason we also moved to augmented reality because they can prevent us from coming in the country with the VR installation but then struggle a lot to stop the app being downloaded and no no I guess I'm not such a danger anyway I mean I'm not gonna stop those wars near the Congo either the Salvador the maahes or Israel Palestine now let's let's stay humble here I'm trying to experiment student ISM and see what happens when we do this but no I didn't had any so far trouble was with governments I'm going back to as well in a couple of weeks maybe we'll keep in touch and I'll let you know thank you eight eight
did you did you test them or did you create them from folders or something so I didn't do it because I'm really bad in technology but my team did and the way we do that is we scan the body we use different techniques along the conflicts we did one conflict each year first one was as well Palestine the second one is when we went to the DRC Congo eastern Congo and then the last one was Salvador we used because it was a year apart and you know those technologies are moving fast we use different techniques on the way but we basically scan their body so we have the proportion their size poor or they are we make about a hundred photograph we put them all on this and then protagonist snow moving and then from there we reanimate everything this is I guess where most of the money goes it's to reanimate based on all the videos we've got from the interview so we know when they close their eyes we know when they move I'm going to put their hand down all of this and we recreate second by Seconds everything they've done the only freedom we allowed ourselves is the fact that they're looking at you so that they're engaging they're not engaging you all the time is straight in the eyes but they do about 60% of the time they're talking to you directly and that's the only kind of freedom I took to bring the level we get what was my audience thank you number seven has been
waiting so patiently please usually say that virtual reality is ultimate empathy
machine and it is quite naive but your work seems to show that immersive media is definitely something that is very beneficial for journalism itself however I would like to ask you how much you see that novelty of the medium itself is one of the big factors that derives the impacts that you can create with your work as you know when we do see television or radio news and which somehow filters them we just seen too much stuff on a TV but people have not been that often in those immersive experiences do you think that we or you as journalists need to continue adapt to new methods over and over again like volumetric video and more and more and more to keep this engagement or do you think that when people say you know that's a ultimate amputee machine that this ultimate is exactly where we need to go and we don't need to go further with the technology and everyone just needs to switch to immersive media and everything will be just fine and journalists will be fixed forever no I don't think so i don't think i think it's very naive to say this is an amputee machine because you can do the exact opposite also you can reinforce stereotypes and is this the future of journalism no I don't think so neither but it's interesting to experiments it's interesting to see how audience are reacting to this and going to the novelty of the medium of course I'm not sure it will be that efficient ten years from now when people are much more used to virtual reality and virtual reality environments and interactions but for a lot of people it was the first time they were doing anything like this not the first time probably they were doing VR some of them of course but at least the first time they were really having a meeting meeting I'm careful with my word here but the first encounters they had in V are with someone engaging them directly I think it always makes a difference when you know what you're looking at is real and that's why it's level journalism in a way that those six months exists they're still alive and they're active fighters the nuts there are generals or whatever they like the foot soldiers they're not the people who think the war is just the people who do the war and and in that sense I think the novelty of the medium has really helped the work not only getting produced but also having the impact he had on the audience I'm not sure it would be the same five or ten years down the line but this I don't know what's happening in five or ten years down the line maybe other things will come definitely sensory media and more sensory things I think will will enhance your experience but again we will get used to everything eventually okay ten more minutes I'm
gonna speed up a little bit um I've seen you I will take your questions but I'll go to the back at first number three please you said you felt obligated to help the people you photographed and my question is do you have any evidence that this is more helpful to them that if you put the same time if of money into some ordinary charity what I don't know how to answer that question honestly I think those are two different things and two different motivations I'm certainly think it's valuable to help and to do charity but I think we need to innovate and if we all the money of innovation goes in charity certainly we'll have a much more better world in a way that everyone's got bread and a work but that doesn't means we're moving forward I don't know it's really a hard question to understand and and to answer is it better to invest money in journalism or is it better to give it to charity I don't know maybe the audience has a stance for how about this but I don't actually but thank you for the questions anyway sorry now mr. mister microphone number four please questions after seeing the video
and I was wondering if you have a similar video of showing somebody from the other side has to complete that section I don't because I was really working hard to bring it to Palestine and not to say that bang against the wall to make a bet but the Palestinian didn't wanted to have it and I really went to the most liberal people to the most open-minded people and they were not willing to take the work they understood it their words was listened I don't see how we should right now be creating empathy or compassion for the other side they are the strong one they are the one who maintain the occupation those are not my words those are their words but at the end of the day I mean in congratulation to the Israeli side who's much more open-minded and accepted to challenge whatever their society allows that to bring it down but I've been struggling with with the Palestinian side same way I have Lebanese friends who says I would love to get that and when they find out there is an Israeli in it is like forget about it we cannot bring this in Beirut so yeah I mean there is numbers of issues and political issues that are beyond my capacity to bring it there know this set I know the app has been downloaded a lot in Palestine but it's not the VR thing and I don't have testimony of Palestinians telling me what they think about it
okay so um the Pitou is very vision I know I'm very patient number two please so I would just be curious to you what
exactly does that consist of for you what does that moral conscious comprise okay sup maybe haven't been very clear about it when you are on the ground and you photograph civilians especially civilians I mean army or gorillas I've always a form of an agenda I want to show who they are kind of we own a good side of history even though they're not always but when you photograph civilians in the worst time of their life imagine I don't know where you live I don't know what you do but imagine you going through terrible events in your life and you see a journalist with a camera come did you appreciate to be photograph at that time no so why do they accept it and this is my questioning and that pom-pom he becomes the moral contract do they accept just because they want to show the misery in which they are which you just said no I wouldn't want to show that or do they hope that actually that witness bringing this to the media would affect their situation and that for me becomes the moral contract thank you very much okay we don't have so much time anymore I will take question number two to press number one but first the signal angel thank you and the rest I'm sorry thanks question came up whether
the installation can still be visited and if it's still on the go it's still on the go it's in Geneva we're working a
20-bit Berlin in 2020 we need some help so if someone has 300 meter square and willing to welcome us we'll be happy to come and we're working on a South American tour right now is translation in Spanish the thing is because it didn't existed before we need to kind of kids a lot of the places we're going into cuz you got a tracking system you need the technical team but that easy and you have a lot of computers hardware so we were more aiming at museums and an institution that have the capacity to welcome such a thing but even those institution are struggling because it's high-tech so that's part of the thing we're trying to do to have the people we had zillions of opposition but we had zillions - and members of time where we did presented well said like it's too complicated see guys I don't know how we're gonna deal with this so of course I mean the guess is most of you would be able to deal with this educated in this but it's not a case of museums which you usually are kind of all then and then it more towards the past but there is an interest and I hope more and more when if not the enemies some some other works thank you okay - microphone - please thanks so recently helped run a study where it used a very
similar set of virtual reality - and we showed that you can use that to induce empathy but that which that embassy comes along a reduced ability to what psychologists called perspective-taking essentially it means to get worse understanding that the other person might have better perspective and knowledge and experiences and you because you can't like blur the boundaries and that kind of like gives to worry that you know something like this gives you the sense that you've understood the other person but that understanding might be misleading because you know if I were to look at some some five today I might get the sense that I'd feel them and I feel like connection to them but they've had very different experiences that I don't you know I don't have access to so can you maybe speak to that worry of the misleading sense of understanding work of course I think the words that can happens is to be extremely extremely impactful and efficient and that that person that has changed perspective let's say it does really happen goes back to its community and the community hasn't changed but he has and that can be extremely problematic because suddenly is like well but you know what they're also human puffs are you out of your mind no they're not because he's changing the other one nuts so that for me that's but that doesn't really clearly answer your question but that's that's a nightmare situation for me when you when you try to be impactful and sometimes you are you can also bring people into trouble because they've changed that perspective and I don't know if the efficiency of it is not really bringing the others perspective I don't think I mean we should extend that conversation to what is true and what is not we all construct through stories or through interaction human interactions an idea of who's the other in this case I think I've done a system that is very simple the question is similar and you know those are active fighters and I hope that's the sense of agency that is offered during the installation and the choice you make appealing really your own instinct and then you walk out of this with more question than you had before you walked in and and that is really my intention in that sense is I want as a journalist I want people to think or to rethink the relation to the other I'm not here to really tell them exactly what they should think so in that sense I let the let the user and I would love to do a neuroscience study which we walk in with an Israeli neuroscientist to put the two groups in it's the palestinian-israeli and see six months or a year down the line if they change perspectives this I don't have the answer but I would love to to find out if there is really a conceptual change first a concept or change of perspective and then like a real change after okay so last minute last question
please number one thank you for your talk thank you so fun
question it's I think the technique is very useful to show equality of human beings as human beings because of the empathy order whatever you call it but I think to understand conflict situations it's also very important to have a grasp of the history that led to that situation that for example you can't show stuff like that in Palestine and in Israel you have an open society who's ready to reflect on that the question is to implement with that technique more historic perspectives and more like abstract knowledge or is it useless for that what's your I don't think knowing history is useless it depends where you read the history and the history is written by the winners it's never written by the by the people who've been conquered so in that sense we can also be very critical about history and who writes history but yes definitely having a more understanding of the zero particular context in which those wars are happening are the reason why they're happening in this case is three different conflicts one is criminality and racketeering Salvador Congo is about the resource we're all using phones and computers they don't work without the rare minerals from Congo so we are responsible for the conflict there but just because that piss me off six million deaths since 20 years and that goes like this because our digital needs and in hardware it's going through the roof that's just a part of history also and israel-palestine we I'm not touching that history simply not you gotta be hammer from one side or the other but yeah thank you very much so time is up and that's a good finisher thanks a lot you go to the bakery Filippo [Applause] [Music] [Music]