Claiming the Territory: La Trobe University's Metadata Store - 8th May 2013

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Claiming the Territory: La Trobe University's Metadata Store - 8th May 2013
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Thoughtful presentation about the impact of La Trobe University's Metadata Store with Roderick Sadler. La Trobe University's Institutional Repository Team Leader, Roderick Sadler, provides some profound insights into the impact of the university's Metadata Stores Project and the cultural changes unleashed as the University Library becomes a publisher for the first time. He discusses how La Trobe is helping researchers think about their data as something that can be published and how exposing research data is part of claiming the territory and gaining advantage for researchers as well as for the University. Roderick explains how La Trobe is future-proofing the architecture of its Metadata Store by using unique and durable identifiers as well as how they are using ReDBox to massage and then push data to their Vital Repository. La Trobe's Digital Infrastructure Manager, Simon Huggard and Research Data Co-ordinator, Charlie Ambrose are on hand to answer questions and expand on the significance of their project.
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Presentation of a group
let's get started I'm going to hand over in a minute to Roderick Sadler from
latrobe University with him are Charlie Ambrose and simon hoggart they're a great team and they've done some really interesting work that Roderick is going to tell you about so I'm just going to hand over now to Roderick Sadler from La Trobe University thank you very much
Simon we've got this disclaiming the territory title when that's that's come out of a comment I made in our recent video presentation that you put together so i guess it's led me to think about lots of different aspects of claiming the territory that have been been part of this project i've actually prepared material looking at one particular aspect of that but that what i suppose what was what the comment originally referred to was was the notion that putting research data material out and making it available is actually it's actually an assertive act it's an act of claiming your territory and we've certainly come across a lot of researchers who are a concern that that it puts them in a in a vulnerable position that it makes them that's revealing their material and perhaps compromising their ability to to exploit it ahead of avail of people who make it may take an opportunity so I guess we're still working on that idea how do we how do we turn that into a salable proposition and how do we how do we give researchers the tools to be to be confident with taking that sort of step certainly it's still comment will be hearing from quite senior academics that that there are concerns that exposing your material before you you've actually worked it thoroughly is something that they have concerns about that it's not something that we can say we've we've dealt with it's something we're still actively working on but the notion of claiming the territory led me to a lot of a lot of other thoughts I mean where we're dealing with the trove here we're dealing with our metadata stores projects as a library a library based project I mean the other projects I know have been steered from other parts of their institutions but to me it's it's quite a it is a claiming the territory exercise for a library to be doing this kind of work as we've been going through the projects so many aspects about our really reworking of a traditional library tasks using traditional library based skills it's it's basically in a sense it's a new form of librarianship so it's kind of its kind of territory that we should be climbing so management of identities describing materials all that sort of thing it's its library library work from time immemorial what I wanted to focus on was was what I suppose emerged out of this project as as the big sleeper it's the it's the thing that we would probably didn't see coming from an early point but it's turned out to be more and more of an issue I suppose which is the the researcher identification management now I guess we're at a time at the moment with the rise of social networking and so forth where there are so many avenues for for people to but for the identification of people to either through their own efforts or through the efforts of other organizations and so forth to become described in one way or another and and those seem to have become sort of an uncoordinated mess in some respect I'll just go shoot through some screenshots to give some example of the territory that we're looking at into to start thinking about how we can claim it I guess so oops so I've just flicked
on to a page it's just a screenshot from Thomson Thompson's research or ID com so we've got a record here for a latrobe academic quite a senior academic and he's he's done work on his own behalf to to get himself a researcher I deallocated obviously through the through the through Thompson to a commercial company now latrobe has had pretty minimal take up from academic store for this service but this is one this is one academic who has taken this step so he's built himself a profile and he's allocated a number of publications obviously I couldn't fit his publication listening to a screenshot but so he is one who's got himself a researcher ID via Thompson's the next next screenshot
is a la trobe researcher who's built himself a research gate profile so again his own initiative he's done something I suppose comparable to what the previous one did through Thompson's research her ID so he he's put together a profile of himself again because the publication list counted in the screenshot so we've gone from Thompson's to research gate now totally different sort of enterprise Thompson's being obviously they're making researcher ID com a freely available available service still coming out of from quite a different sector then we move on to another latrobe
academic who's built himself a profile through microsoft academic search so he's done quite a bit of work put it in a very fetching photo of himself and he's built quite a profile in your system for himself now I think Simon so I'm just going to talk a little off societyus I'm huggin to see did he have you spoken him about him using this as a filly a primary sort of profile page um I've talked to him about what he's he's used and he said he he tried a few different sort of profile sites and sort of some of them you can see I looked at a number of them and you could see some of them he went in there and did something at one point and then obviously if it didn't sort of meet his needs and he's only done a couple of things added a few things and then gone on to something else and think there's a couple of ones that he is using i think google scholar and microsoft acad?mica the ones he's actually i think actively looking at and i think the other thing about those profile pages is that they also they work on youth they send you emails they say someone looked at your profile someone commented on this there's a new publication that might be yours here you might want to claim that all these sort of things and so there's there's some that are quite active in some of it that you don't not much happens on this you actually work on them so he tried the mountain was interested in you know sort of publicizing what he's done and putting a bit of a profile out there so there's a couple of years actively using okay so moving on from Hilton um this is
another life trade academic no no photo at this time but he's he's actually built himself a google scholar profile so he's a again put together citations tetra he's brought them together under one identity and another one in in Google Scholar he's been quite active in building his profile here so he's taken the trouble of putting a photo in and so forth so for each of these these these academics are acquiring IDs in different systems but but these are all Israel and coordinated and managed so the same one
sorry I discover in so so Russell
Russell away sorry I just running it's a
russell hoy we just looked at through google scholar will start looking at him now through a different structure of of identification so so the is the
identifier so Russ Russell hoy hasn't is near identifier so the international standard name identification system which is a quite a new initiative but it's a it's a very high level initiative so so it's this particular device we're looking ATS powered by oclc o in the library world you don't get a lot bigger than OCLC and these knees that is based in New has an international standards space so so in contrast to the sort of commercial efforts with through Thompson's and the community based ones we now have a very high level organized sort of approach to to identification management so we've got a news new record here for Russell Hawaii and the same researcher again so now this is the via of I off record for Russell hoy so this is the virtual international Authority file so we've I send us well in a sense we've moved down a level so and I'll just click through we've got some more detail so so this is back to the to some detail from the is new record so the is new record is actually sourced from the wife record so I'll just click back a couple of slides so so these new record here with its various details is is generated through that from that by if record so we've got this sort of hierarchy easily kind of locating itself at the broadest level so there's some other sources they're listed for the for the vehicle as well so by for some highlighted one here so now the via free cord in turn is sourced from a record from the National Library of Australia so over on the right we've got a little diagram there of this sort of structure of sources for this record and on the Left we've got we've got them listed so this this vaya for accord for for Russell hoy has has been put together from a number of different sources and they're starting to sound familiar when done anything with the national libraries party infrastructure so it's a kind of a conglomeration sort of effect so the vaio Frek ered this is the record history these are obviously screenshots attached to the same record so there are is quite a lengthy least record IDs there some of them occur several times because there's some deletions and so forth but that by off record has has been put together out of out of work over quite a number of different records from different sources so there's an awful lot of work going on out there in this kind of this identification management a lot of different agencies a lot of them working at a national and international level and they're actually trying to trying to coordinate their efforts which is something that's quite a novelty for someone who's been working in in the library world some time to see all of these agencies coordinate quite extraordinary so from the vias record so
as we saw the viet record had a had the
National Library of Australia as I highlighted the National Library of Australia is one of the sources for the vibe record so I figured that one so
this is the the National I be Australia people system display for that for that record so so Russell Hawaii again so he's making this is really following him all the way down the hierarchy I suppose from from his knee through VF down through to the National Library so the the trove record lists three identifies for this person I suppose whether you describe it as a little tender fire for a person or for a record as a moot point but anyway so we've got two two libraries Australia unifiers in this case which is a little unusual I think he was described twice erroneously anyway and anyone who's familiar with the party infrastructure will see how the the film in the familiar form of the NL a party identifier the bottom of that list of identifiers so so he's found his way into the party infrastructure out of the libraries are straighter infrastructure so Andy's found his way right up to the is new infrastructure through by it as well so when we look at
the library's Australia court now takes another twist the library's Australia Authority record is originally a library of congress record so we've got this extraordinary twisting and turning going on with these identification of this one person so the LC number field there is indicating Library of Congress number so if we
trace that one back so why we progress has a record for the same person so so we've got Russell hoy described in many in various places but some some linking some working independently so we can see this this is inter connection going on it's not always true way the Library of Congress record for instance doesn't have any reference at all to the libraries Australia record the libraries Australia record refers back to this one and then the National Library party infrastructure record refers back to the to the libraries Australia record the libraries Australian one listened to prefer the other way to the parties record so now just to to add to this
kind of proliferation of identifies from all these different sectors we have our own local version of a party record so this is the latrobe approach we've got what we're doing here is I'm just looking at the lower part of the screen we've got I'll just look at the external ones first so we've got a trove record link so so this record is aligned with a trove record so we've included that now this is this is a public record in our in our repository system so this is part of this is actually part of our metas metadata store infrastructure as we've realized through our al latrobe repository so we've actually modified the display so that it takes a trove link and puts it in the public display with the link we can incorporate a vaio record link as well so it can go to the NLA level League and job up to the boeuf level then off to the side we have a scopus record ID scopus obviously being a commercial organization so sitting outside that structure but yet we we've taken the decision to incorporate all of these IDs in the same record and at the bottom we have an easing identifier and as far as I know isn't the identifiers are not currently it cannot currently be resolved as URLs but they are intended to be to be unique in identification for researchers in the world so something like an ISBN for a book where it's not something you can resolve to erl but it is intended to be to be unique so so out of all of that obviously the the new one to the mix is our local record ID so now we we're working with redbox and mint in the back end so the records we have in here need to coordinate with our with our means records when it comes to identifying researchers so so the identify there for anyone familiar with means it's probably not going to look familiar as a mint identifier usually I mean to identify will be a long hash hash p so it's it's derived out of something deep within the technical workings of the main system put together intended to be intended to become something unique but but to us it was it was wasn't something I was going to help pull our systems together so we wanted to push the records out into this public interface so what we've done with our local ID is we've we've taken an identification number from from will tribes research management system to a research master system and we've pre prepended the traversal code to that so the AU hi from vlu is what we've prepended to that to make our records specific to latrobe so obviously if we're pushing if we're pushing a party record out to say national library and we've just put a research master 10 digit numerical code they're perfectly possible that could that could be the same as another one someone else contributed so we've we've taken this step of of trying to ensure uniqueness by by putting identification in that form so that that's form of identified in the fire is the one that's going to be the key that we send up to to the National Library in our as a so we we actually are contributing EAC CPF records to the National Library and we're using identifiers of that form as our primary match point so so the idea of that is that we can at any at any point where we see one of our records we can we can readily take it back to the original source so so we just take off the ISIL code and we have the research mass identifier now the thing about the research must identify is that it actually enables us to coordinate party records with them not only our research data records where we're explicitly adding the identifiers but but also the publication records coming out of our our research master system so they all come with farming with research identifies as well so this is actually building a system where we can pull together this whole kind of whole ecosystem of AB data about the tribes research output so by by building our research identification around this this number it actually enables us to coordinate identification of publication records which are also in our repository system with with research collection records which will be here as well and to push those those records at the National Library maintain those those linkages so we haven't gotten a lot further at this stage then then I guess incorporating all of these these records I mean there are still some open questions about the proper kind of markup for some of these identification of those identifiers like a scopus ID and so forth I mean it looks like it's just a pretty vanilla field to include in the record of the stage a rather than being formally identified but anyway this is the kind of work that we're attempting to to do we're trying to bring together these identifies now this particular researcher didn't have a researcher ID identifier we looked at one previously who did have but this one doesn't have otherwise we would have incorporated that as well this one doesn't have an author ID either so i can see a lot of fishing zero bet Oh are we going to continue trying to keep all of these balls in the air I suppose it's the you know the kind of territory we're looking at we come back to the notion of claiming the territory we are looking at researchers who are in some cases quite active even met in managing their own profiles they're out there on these other systems like Google Scholar Thompson's researcher ID researchgate various others they're managing their own identities out there so I suppose the sort of thinking we've had here is that we have to engage with that or we're just going to be out of the picture so we're not an imposition to to require them to to restrict their activities for one system or another or to impose another system on them so we're trying to make our work complementary to what they are already engaged with guess that's that you said it's a reasonable way of putting time yeah yeah so we're trying to trying to engage with the landscape that that our researchers were engaged with so so pulling those identifies into our system hopefully as a way of making out our records relevant to the sort of things that they're doing and there's great other initiatives and I guess ultimately when these records are pushed to our da to research data australia at also push those identifies out there and and you know the data is out there in the public domain so if that researcher wants to get promote them their work and claim their work claimed the territory in different systems they can do that and we're integrating with that as much as possible so i guess they're still there seemed to be some issues about when you know when party records are pushed from nla to our da or back again or I mean this interview it seems to be data that gets lost somehow in transit that's something we're still working out for ourselves like what's the what's the approach that we can take the willing we'll pick the best integrity for the sort of work we're doing so we don't we're putting opening various elements in our records and find that they disappear when they get moved from one system to another so we're still working that out we haven't come up to me we haven't finalized our approach to some of these things yet but this is kind of the kind of direction we're heading our guess it's fair to say now okay so we're
looking at something specific to do with our research master to a redbox / means to our repository to nla to that connection so we've got some slides about how our metadata stores being configured to to keep this researcher identity consistent as goes through each component of the system so just just recapitulating near that if i think you know i saw coach for the tro as hell i guess that's part of claiming our territory to we're sticking our brand on our research ID and so we're we're satiating that with their al the researcher ID that the tribes familiar with so um give me a minute Audrey yes Roderick just excuse me a minute somebody's got a microphone unmuted so we can hear conversation in the background and it can everybody mute themselves okay let's try that now I still here conversation that might have been us a little try it on the hook okay where you go sorry okay thanks Simon so um so we just were just looking in a bit more detail at how we put together our local identifiers and how we push them through our systems so so we've got our iso code there and we concatenate it with with a an institutional ID for the for the researcher so we've got our one we've
got CSV file we've pulled out of research master so we've got highlighted in yellow just about the middle there Peter Tate and so we've at this stage we've just got the on the left hand side we've just got the the raw institutional identifier for this researcher so that's that's unique in the latrobe context but obviously not not necessarily be on will tribe so as we move through we go
through to to the redbox mint view what is the mint view obviously so so towards the bottom of the page we've got boxed in red there several instances several instances of of our reworked version of that identifier so so we've actually move up the au dash v lu iso code for latrobe prepended now so whereas previously we had the previous that we
just had the 10 digit code with the five leading zeros now we have the iso code
and and that same identifier so this is what we were going to be using as our primary identifier for this this research so that their various other identifies that that redbox creates and invariably they involve a extremely long hash key so so our decision is it's more readable it's more portable it makes sense across our different systems to to work with a different identifiers so I just passing over charlie I'm just add to that and say that that um what appears here is known ids would previously have looked something like what we've got for the storage idea this looks like a hash value okay so so this is the meat view so we've gone from the research master CSV extract through to the mint view and so now we've just got a view of the configuration that we did in the mint or Charlie really did in the mint to make the change to get the to get the our defined identifier as the as the key one in this process so the standard men to behave the record it's pushed up to analyze to is to look for what it thinks as one of the things I've as the identifier for the for the researcher so that would be as Charlie said that would typically have been something along one of those values towards the top of the record that's what meet would have expected to have been to being sent to in LA now in our model we've actually worked around I suppose the the mint standard processes in the sense that we've we've actually we haven't pushed party records from mint into our repository system now we looked at a repository system party record before that's actually populated from a parallel process so so when the records are put together out of out of research master they go in two different directions they go they go to into the vital repository system and they in parallel they go into the men's system but they have the same identifier so that's how was pulling them together so the OA I harvest from nla is actually out of our our vital fedora repository so when we come to use an identifier out of mins to use party record and it doesn't have an ill identifier attached to it it will do its process of going up to LA to look for one so to look for it so identify that it's configured to search for through an SIU query and pull back in a layered in the fire so so what we've done using this code is to is to change what's stored for what search for so we've we've changed the value that will go into the sau query so it will go off looking for one of those au dash v lu 000 etc identifies which is what we will have we will have pushed that up to n la out of our vital repository using the ir harvest and that's what meant will need will coordinate with that to pull back the nla identifier now that it sounds like a sort of random our process but it's actually work quite smoothly for us we've we've actually I suppose quarantine the use of we've made of meat we haven't led we haven't let mint and redbox lead what we're doing here we've we've actually I suppose configure them to fit into the processes that we wanted to run so but we've actually managed to get them to fit in quite well with a with the approach we've taken so so we've got our oh I harvesting concentrated in our repository system so we're already we're already using that system for other other oai harvesting now we're extending it to user for EAC CPF and for FCS and so far that's actually worked very smoothly for us so that coordination between between the io harvesting out of the repose tree and the SIU lookups and and the bringing back of the NI identifiers interment has actually worked very smoothly so we've been quite happy with that with that result but I did take some system configuration work to get that happening so predator Charlie basically for sorting that out so I guess that's one of the ways that we've we've differentiated our our implementation of redbox and meant is that we've we've actually got a coordinating with a bigger process I suppose we haven't taken the out-of-the-box sort of processes that it runs with we've we've come up with our own process of processes and we've we've configured redbox I need to work with that so I guess that's the essence of of how we're keeping our identifiers in a form that it's meaningful meaningful to us but not just in the redbox immune system so i guess that's um that's the essence of of what i had prepared in
terms of slides so forth now summon did you want to pick up and and thanks for everything I guess just to wrap up under Katya Oh y'all some stories on yeah yeah that's all right so it's it's I'm and hug it here um I'll just say a couple of things and then we'll hand over to Sun properly to you know arrange to mention about questions and things and how we're going for time but I guess the thing we have to sort out here is to as to how what level do we manage those identities and all of the different external systems that people are using so we had to we have to go in and edit those records party records for people to add those identifies in and then because we do that work it gets pushed out to the systems that we want that to be exposed in and therefore you know we have a little bit how much work it's going to be to actually manage all of that stuff and how we resource you know managing those identifies but the university sees that is a really important thing that we should be doing so I'm hoping that that means they'll provide some resources and support for us to be able to do that point so you know this is that this stage we're looking at that demonstrating that's what we can do and then we figure out if we can manage that across you know 5,000 researchers at the tribe or however the number of people we have so Charlie did you want to say anything we're done okay so I think we're done Simon and do we wanna i'll hand over you third ask four questions well Simon thank you and Roderick thank you for that Charlie as well I'll start with a question while it can I just say if you haven't got a microphone please use the chat box for any questions you have if you have seen the video that we made it a week or so ago I found that extraordinary because we had a quite a lot of foot of material there that I have to edit down and one of the things that Simon Haggard said was that one of the core challenges that they had at latrobe with their metadata stores project was actually getting the collections from researchers getting the cut the researchers engaged what Roderick's been describing is very much the sort of under the bonnet side or building researcher profiles and I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how researcher profiles fit into the latrobe vision and just how important are they as a driver for that engagement with researchers I've just been generously handed the microphone from Roderick um such Simon Huggett you again the the researcher profile side of things is still reasonably undeveloped underdeveloped at latrobe so we're in a very good position I think to be able to engage with researchers and say if we manage their identities manage their publications manage their research data collections and the research data that they they want us to curate and make available then we can provide researcher profiles I've either from directly from our repository which is what we're able to demonstrate now Albert it's it needs some styling and some work to improve the look of it for pushing that out to other systems at latrobe to be able to you know allow researchers to to manage their own identities in some ways and and profiles and and you know use other systems that sort of do that that work a lot better so the latrobe has a has just gone through a Content a web content management system implementation that took a couple of years and part of that implementation wall is getting researcher profiles out there on the website so that researchers themselves can log in and you know create a description of themselves put their publications out there and describe what they're doing and their research areas but at the moment that's a that's a completely manual process so each research can go in edit their page they have to manually cut and paste all of their publications into that page and save it so it's extremely inefficient so we're seeing the work we're doing here as a way of saying look we can demonstrate how some of this work can be done from a lot of it can be done from the repository and data pushed out of the right places and managed to help researchers with their profiles so I guess what you've seen today is probably you know the bare bones of it you can see that we've we can demonstrate we can pull in you know profiles from from different areas and different external systems we see that as a key you know selling point to researchers because they're they're obviously engaged with what what you know the different systems are out there and what they can provide for them and and there's a and if we can say well we're in this space and we can manage some of that for you that's a good big room for academics because they their workloads a very high they they have little time to manage this kind of stuff and we with at the moment providing resources and being able to do that I'm for them so they so researchers do they do get excited about you know when we talk about profiles and being able to manage things for them but we you know we're still in the process of figuring out how we might do that thank you if anyone has with a mic has questions please unmute yourself and speaker otherwise use the chat unless anyone in the meantime I have another question for Roderick and this is really it's another claiming the territory question and it's related to something you said when we did the video about the change in the library as it becomes the first publisher can you expand a bit on that the sort of changes you're seeing that the library estimate as a first publisher well it's um it's an interesting thing it's almost the it's a bit of a back to the future kind of situation because it'll try with the with the cataloging work that's down here if with regard to the rigor collection the emphasis was going away from working with identity with authority records it's going away from that kind of control sort of work and just simplifying more and more and assuming that everything will just fall into place so what's happened now with this project is that suddenly authority works back in the frame again it's back as a central task so managing these records identifying people this unambiguous identification of researchers is now back as a central part of the of the discipline of what we're doing so it's this because we're in that role now so we we can't assume that everything we're dealing with has been already dealt with by someone else so if you're doing normal cataloging work you to assume that anything you're cataloging entering you're handling has probably been catalogued by Library of Congress or national Larry of Australia or or whatever so are you down to a very minimal task but when you start dealing with savory search data collections and you're dealing with obviously need to associate the correct researcher with the correct you know the collection etc so now we're back to a in a sense we're back to that kind of high-level cataloging work that was was slipping out of favor in the library in the library context but we need to we need to recover those sort of those sort of skills with along with skills with dealing with in some cases quite complex digital content and engaging with quite complex research work so we need to find I guess we need to find the language for dealing with all that kind of thing it's not just a matter of dealing with a different different metadata schemas or that's something it's also finding the I guess it's finding a way of actually talking to the researchers because we we're not going to be building decent of collection descriptions if we're not talking to the researchers if you have a book in hand that you're cataloging more more often than not you will just you will just do it yourself but if you're dealing with a collection when you're the publisher you're the one who has to make the decisions about the kind of structure you put around it like I'm an error there are very fundamental questions like what is your collection at the moment we've we've been given a lot of material from from a research center which is quite recently wound up
but it had a lot of valuable research material in it so it's a it's a pretty fundamental question like what do you call your collection is the entire thing a collection that's a pretty limited value I mean it might be value what might be a value to have one description at that level but then it's been a question that people and libraries had to ask for a long time now where do you actually target your description so I think for that collection we're going to have to to look at some multiple collections to give more meaningful descriptions because no one else is going to be doing it we're the ones who are going to be doing and then if we don't if we don't do well no one else is going to be doing a better job of it so if we mess it up then we've messed it up for the world basically we've we've left our nose researches so I'll pass them to something he wants to say I think it's also one of the things is the researchers themselves have a big ownership around their data that they want to publish and so they do you know they're very keen for us to put it somewhere put a DOI around and make it available publish it so that's that at claiming the territory and being able to sort of publish things for the first time but they do you know they've they get worried about how how their data is exposed and described and the rest of it and who's going to get access to it which is quite rightly so so it is as broad we're saying it's important to get that right and make it available but they are they are very engaged with that because we're seeing I think with some discussions with people there there there are some journals which are asking for the data as part of the review process of when your paper is submitted for publication so the data is made available so that the reviewer can look at that and Vera father the results in the paper itself and therefore accepted for publication so if the library can be within that space as well we're engaging with the researcher as soon as they publish or when they're about to publish or just before they publish we're getting their data at the same time we're providing value in that process and that's that's really important as a part of engaging with our researchers and what they're doing are there any skills the Donnell librarians don't have that you need to train them up in when it comes to data um that's a that's a very good question we have a cotton an interesting mix of people in our group at the moment that have you know really good skills around analyzing you know data itself and exposing and putting it up making it available on IT systems that kind of thing so it's probably though the skills that we would need to to beef up in you know metadata librarian that would be dealing with the data and looking at it and being and having to describe it and make it available so but I see it as a kind of team approach i wouldn't say say that you have to have one person that has all of those skills it really does you know is a matter of the team looking at things and and the people who are specialists in certain areas providing advice and and help in that regard and i think this is too much sort of you know in our experience so far there's already too much diverse data and that we're seeing from different projects for any one of us to it to understand at all and and by having a group of people who sort of have a mixer you know librarians gorgeous description and dealing with information and information management as well as file management and data and data sources and then you know servers and systems and make things available you you know you're not going to have one person that's going to have that having a team that can cover all of that is really important I think Joe bean has a Christian summon I'd like to know your Methodist thought project as a project itself or I'll finish soul so do you want to talk about how to make it long term sustainable at all yep so how are we going to make the the metadata store sustainable as a long-term thing at the trove so in terms of so we have the processes in place now to be able to manage the metadata saw so that the thing that the the issue that's coming up now which i guess is common across these projects is you know how do we how do we resource getting people out there and talking to researchers to to find out what their research they're doing what collections they have how they want to expose their data and make it available in the meta data store so there's that how do we sustain that resourcing and then there's the issue of having the staff at our end to deal with what we're being given what's coming into our our repository so that that's a good question that we're going to have to manage that the approach at latrobe is to where we're going with me let me think about this for a second we're dealing we're trying to I guess work with the research services offers the research office of the TRO and the office of e research so a collaborative approach with them and some degree with ICT to to kind of share that load about making contact with researchers dealing with their doubt a deal on leave you know the questions that they have and making the connection so so that we're not doing all the work so if someone is having a conversation with a researcher then they can refer that them to us but that's that's kind of the sort of research data management sort of area and systems that kind of thing but we're also now working with our liaison librarians to get them to be our advocates and and talk about because they're they're dealing with researchers anyway in terms of you know literature searches grant support you know all sorts of areas through the publishing and the research life cycle but and so we want we want to train them up and have them understand what are the issues that we want to find out from researchers so that we can help them and get their doubter exposed so they're also our biggest asset I guess in terms of numbers and and so we're going in backing on a training program with them at the moment and we're also we're also looking at position descriptions and what are the types of people we need are they dedicated people that are going to sort of be within a liaison librarian team that do this kind of work or is it incorporating to the day-to-day work they do there's probably a mix of models out there as to how we're going to approach that and we will also be looking at our our team within our digital infrastructure team that manage the repository and looking at our resulting in roles and you know what dedicated resources do we need here to be able to manage this work so an example of you know a set of research data that we've got it's a huge storehouse of data that where we've got from a previous center the closed down and it's that work could potentially you know go on for years and we've already spent you know I guess four or five months looking at that data and we know we're only just at the point of we haven't even described it as part of this project yet because it's not not able to be publicly exposed yet but you know analyzing what's in that collection and providing advice to there's a steering committee involved with that it is a big part in earnest as one collection so resourcing and sustainability are big issues but the we have our ends in a parent project we have our steering committee and we're going to re-engineer that steering committee to be probably a subcommittee of our research and graduate studies committee one of our official committees at the University but will then oversee the project from then on and that will involve as many stakeholders as we can from ICT from me research research and from faculties and departments themselves and the library so that hopefully will keep people well informed of what work we're doing and getting the word out there but also the need for resourcing and management of this as a whole service for the university thank you very much that's probably unless there are any other questions it's probably not a bad note to end on I recommend if you haven't seen it but you have a look at the short video that we've made on lotro project with the team so that you can see who's who and I'm sure that Simon Roderick and Charlie would be happy to us answer any questions if you've got them by email or can't or phone or whatever so I that's at this point we might wrap it up and I just like to thank you Roderick Simon and Charlie for sharing this your approach to our identification i think is interested a lot of people and particularly entering into that discussion about the changes that are afoot so thank you very much