Canary In the Coal Mine: Initiating Organizational Change Through Rapid Prototyping Pressure

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Canary In the Coal Mine: Initiating Organizational Change Through Rapid Prototyping Pressure
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John Kerry and Michael Hedgpeth worked within their large organization to use Chef to eliminate change-related outages for one of their most strategically important teams. Learn how they approached cultural differences within the organization, what PCI-related challenges they faced, and how they balanced their short-term and long-term objectives within the organization.
Rapid Prototyping Mathematics Self-organization Pressure
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low everyone so so today we have joining from insular Michael Haegeman and John Kerry who's gonna be speaking with this about and rapid prototyping and organizations change also some of the cultural and compliance challenges that they faced during the journey which so John welcome thank you thanks right this is as we said earlier canary in a coal mine of initializing initiating organizational change to rapid-prototyping pressure and NCR I and Michael
and I can promise offer background so technically I'm a software architecture uh but I work to bring our chef implementation together for all of our hospitality software solution of products and I belong there and stash of stock common any complainant we're to easily say nice things at my hedge and John Kerry I am doomed to Google obscurity for the rest my life I kick myself for not registered the domain when I was 12 but this may no blog than of lot on Twitter also does not have much I leader Dev team of 2 1st Uchida product is disconnected but in the same organization is Michael I. we were really the canary in the coal mine to figure out whether or not Chavez has survived and see our and we used our product needs really drive how we operate and how we got things done so is adopted yes of 4 we give you a walk through of of our journey which share and challenges we face and the things that we've learned along the way I will give you a
little insight I see art I in C R is the world leader in channel Consumer Transaction technology and I do not yet the market people wrote that hand what's important will get on the channel Consumer Transaction technology was important uh for this talk for you to understand is that were really really big company so we have 27 thousand employees and John fire within the same division of but as you can see within my clip-art or job right there and we are in a completely different areas completely bosses so he's on a prime time on in have the central you know operations that role and but within development so we face a lot of challenges we how to deal with people in larger organizations that's kind of what this is geared toward I in C or a long time ago of 135 years ago actually innovated in the retail space to invent the contrastive so before NCR came along and there will be some money back and somebody likely stealing from you know that if they're not the owner taking uh transactions so we have that and that process in the cash register and that work for us for a long time and that in in terms of channels for us that is a single channel so channel in in Commerce terms what what way does a customer uh interact with you as a business there was generally 1 channel that a retail organization would interact with customers with it was walking into the store interacting with the points so we provide to and the technology to make that happen and then within the restaurant space which is where John and I work you started maybe 30 years ago having a a little bit of innovation around technology on and more channels so you might call in for a pizza or you might do take out a like in the nineties seeing the parking space Chile's that that you would do to go order that kind of thing so there were a few channels to deal with it but when we talk about on a channel of it's about an
explosion itself were there are so many channels for organizations deal with and John and I try to help make a little easier for people by giving them a technology platform within which processes channels breaks in original solar inputs and specifically on my team we we build the rails and eyes and websites to solve for the people and I do we have the developers play around with like Amazon ICU integration in
dash ordering in vehicles but our customers are demanding on new channels but the cool thing for me and to keep me employed is that baby eyes the commonality for all that right you're going to need an application interface to get down into the site to drop those orders the fired back us so here we have a list of budgets for perspective some of the customers that hospitality operates on me a good many these internationally as well as domestic are online ordering customers and you know we continue to onboard new customers and really on you know driving these customers successful which is what it's really all about the so in order to keep all this perspective her in perspective and you can of understand where it came from and I joined online ordering about 3 years ago I had the time Artemis pretty small and became much the deployment guys like you know he can handle sequels of the moles of known user getting to do it but now so really deployment nation that became I think pretty early and what we knew was that scale was coming i we
had we we could sense the hockey stick is going to korea like customers of and I can get their feet but for a long time for the really big customers and they do go bigger really really big and because in the planning I but you I can I know that the tools that we have a timer or not suitable for a for that kind of scale the work 1 more OK we do but as soon as we have to really hate skill that's remarkable make it with what we have actually need to address this problem now and you know on my we disagreed us so we we started on so at the same time John I had met yet
at same time of the challenges I was having were completely different so I started out in development and in work my way in this offer architecture a lot of a lot of having do with tested development use integration agile stuff that happens within as a development team and ii kept being driven closer and closer to the customer so for a few years I spend time doing test automation of for our core products to ensure that we have a good accurate regression going into restaurants and have been doing massive investments are pipeline I realize until we solve the delivery problem which is that moment that it these my hands and it goes into production were really not solve all problems so I felt like over the years i've been optimizing a great things in great things but optimize maybe the wrong things were the slowest in in most of this lowest part of the system is going to be the party should be focusing on and deliver I realize that delivery was the part that I need to be focused on that's what got me in the shower because I saw a really great opportunity for us to be able to automate the delivery of our suffers a service types of applications for our customers so we decided to show and john and that in January of last year to those 15 if N and a a proof of concept type of engagement with it which I as part of the sales process and in the position my problems and the cultures of like a when your product to attend a prototype like gamma on was too yeah I John John is a perfect candidate for us initiating shaft organization because a lower just talk about on the channel reality in his were his team and products really at the center of that for us and so we needed to innovate in order to reach the scale that that uh John was it's John you were expecting so they will talk about the states we made along the way that hopefully and you will make yourselves LS easily learn you can learn some lessons and then some outcomes that would inspire you to go on about a similar change trajectory that we did as so the 1st mistake that I made is I started to attract top down of I started with OK we we need to do this big thing and share that chef involved that was great I got my leadership on board that was great I but in retrospect I probably should have talked to John 1st and I had a done his experience and by and I think luckily we invited him very late in the process of locally on board that was a very big locally and he could have been he could have come to me and said you know like itself yeah I've been I've been using now you know this other technologies this whole time I've got it running why you even talking to ship right now and then I would have been totally blown out of water with with my cat top-down approach the don't again I would have found John like at the very beginning and that toward the end the look if you are a good answer so we had so this is a pleasant yeah go you so questions well engagement look like if I would have done the right way so they would probably I think we got lucky it would have probably ended up the same but because I really work together in like something about surface to these experiments are any ever everything I think so that I we probably would have gone gotten a lot more and out of the political mess that will talk about a little bit later in more to results that would have fueled but the faster growth with our ship adoption and if we would not done this so this probably cost as political and stuff that we'll talk about later on in the thank you so the problem has the new real pressure to get it done and so that business problems can be handled at the the worst thing you could do with 1 Iast transformations to go your Jackson's allergy this big scary thing it's gonna take forever and it's going to pay off from work done so just trust me right and you want that acts as the government on and I haven't under pressure but but I need a safety net to take risk and I need like a I a really burn my capital fungus and it is really scary dangerous thing but it's easier for people to accept that when I can say on the use that to build a model to make all the other products safer and and give them a higher velocity but I can't do that with a Michael without a broader vision on to the
next lesson learned is that and innovators can break rules so so it wouldn't really easy for about Michael to to design ivory tower picture the way chef integration works inside and see our and to have forced me to attempted to force me what to do what you want on but that's not always gonna work that way especially in the in in the beginning because you need to keep a focus on solving business problems the immediate problem and so really early on Monday I go back I tell my management hate this demob stuff nobody knows what it is we don't know what it is but we're gonna do it I'm gonna do it and really cells of the whole and uh luckily don't they bought on I start going on the shelf path and then you about a month in I stop model from the Brownsville locations lower what happens in to the finish line get to production and I say hey guys read the Buddha shoveling now sorry it's it's not big enough uh as and appropriately and get a lot of problem that should have been addressed globally in the not done so I I had this conversation Michael McClay on like can you actually survive this for you to be there standing with me when I needed to the finish line get into what they didn't tell me when I started on this path that is that there were a lot of other people that came before me that these you know cortical great ideas so we do this and they didn't really pushing through waste of everybody's time and nothing happens and so John anomie you know I know John insulin and never heard the story the Travellers the so I I he was kind of wondering if I was the same type of theories and try to get new ways much Thomas thing is never happen and I think the major work was that he told me if you make it work for you it'll be OK for you right hopefully we can take what you've done and we can use that as a template for everybody else but words from an ordering nonlinearities is happy if you can keep moving forward Natalie's Damien of justification tell the business yes I can solve the problems with this technology it will definitely work for us i've got all these got that for so a great example of this rule breaking his robe recognize actually thought I was alone in this returns of making of not on is we are still really early on that because we're PCI product and I you we wanted like obviously the ones of server rule them all across all environments from dead the abroad and that doesn't sound too nice and you really think about security and the ideal models that you have a chef server in your jailed environment and nothing can get to it ever other than the 1 that has the key on and I you know we get no matter where this was needed anywhere and finally I'm I can have models like the existential crisis moments like a snap and all the meeting with Michael operations team and say about it is doing locomotion but that's crazy but we're use it you're commanded deployed to test kitchen and we're using in the deployed reason chef already deployed world are lower environments so you tell me if you'd rather take now take his untested maddening continued employer we haven't or user thing were already the point all lower environments to end on yeah so that was kind of a you know shocking thing to my design but the reality is I want it to work more than I want it to be perfect and that that was a key outcome key lesson that there no the lesson that i've learned is you always have to be working is always more important imperfection prefectures the immune up but the unintended consequence positive consequence of this is that we kept things as much the same as we possibly could and that's what helped the organization really mine rancher so if I had to count the number of meetings right to where we talked about what is the box I could have another what is that about me and they can get you know me crazy like the opposite Deborah you trying to keep the devil the observation given the out so the Debré power they together in all that stuff really real reasons me were PCR product yeah security thing is real and content production but but it's the wrong conversation having content yeah hardwired 419 the right conversation have is where you this deployment shepherds just scripts you know he we're running partial script for running some method we're going to run this other methods so local mode of let's start adopting that would start platinum mine around that reality and all of a sudden Schepers not this you know evil god of war you notice some was like people were also thinking of it as a mythical monster is a year that they read these articles they hear this talk about share and and it's going to change everything in that they viewed as a threat to them to to their jobs and or to their their way of thinking about things but it's really not it's a change in with local mode we're able to say you stress you rice to so for Iran's scripts now it's a different technology platforms yes right put a bunch things on top of that to let it scale but for now let's do this in in everybody a rallied around to make that happen of which categories to our next lesson learned which is the deadlines working I realized at the early part of this that it was really difficult to be with people's devote to me with a security person to get my model approved or whatever it is and they were basically giving me about an hour a week in about the 1st 45 minutes of sound really explain of what it was we talked about last time so we were basically getting nothing done until a brilliant John idea number to happens at this down to about John's going that but which is so so i it seems again have a lot of existential moments I'm sitting another meaning it's not going anywhere and we're not moving forward and meanwhile we have like a real configuration driven issues right I mean minor outages but in in handleable but we have some knowledge is the occurring production and that solution of redundant just as there it's really go over still talking about like how does show could implemented in a couple months but things we need to do to prepare for it and but maybe wisely Snapple begins at all I know I have a customer problem had a fixed for I'm gonna go to production 2 weeks but this is going to happen in 2 weeks so as change the conversation from what do we do to prepare for this thing may occur to what do we do in the next 2 weeks so that we're safe and everybody's happy and if you tell me can
happen that's OK but I really this out because our customers according and I can fix that but then it completely changes the conversation and a M. really really proud operating like but it the developers and operations everybody right were really train on action and we have something affects once the something to fiction act on but we really get things done it turns in action items in the list and and out your trackable Goals and things like that and people scuttled of phrases that that but but in in Syria we really really care about security it's a really big thing so and it was from what and appeared event and March 4 2 it's getting everything together but we did get a together we did it safely and those customer issues resulted in upward bottom anymore 1 is just a it's is also to see all that come together that I'm so an outcome here that this completely unexpected the 2 of us alike were progresses the buds Morgan work together all the time that's integrating after we finish this hurdle were to go back and undo all the things they cheated on the guess here but but you always need to keep your eye on the next business problem the next target state so that we we get this done I we we build a really solid on deployment and delivery pipeline when amazing for this used so that the I think you know what you mean the let's to think about what I mean by this of the when exactly but is that's the question was what was the Gallup they'd be galvanizing force for action and that was the deadline right whenever a nice to it whenever I put it a choke on it and said you this is cool we can have all these theoretical discussions but it's going happen to in some form it was it was the deadline within mobile mode which was threatening to so you're just running scripts you're running should support re-running stretched out so they did you see that as a as a potential security crisis by I'm not understand all the ins and outs of the system so the local mode and then OK we did the local mode in in actually yeah every other conversation you have and we missed loads of guys I and testing this and development testing and QA which testing it in our unity environment do you want me to deploy this into production like I've tested at or do you want me to what is in the production of some other way like the old way and so that was on them and the rest assessment of that situation totally change the world 0 I think we want to be like test that you know that it's that the conversation actually separated chef-client Chef shifter the scary thing it's really really big and full of a security problems if you don't really know what's going on but review have it's really not to the from their perspectives on Ohio yeah they they were they felt like it was a threat to which I find is script as a script that's on right so so the target state and we we get we were were were rocking code other production time with the tighter time frame and we have had operated number 4 and and suddenly my next business problem becomes something completely different marketing go back and I can't undo locomotive we're a policy photoshop and what's which are also now and so on other part of that work would be Friday asking past policy files demonstrating with environments but and I thought that my next target state was given the work that stuff to support the vision but it turns out that I we built this really awesome 1 to get things in the production and a how later real serious need for increased testing and continuous integration early on in the process so my my unfocused turns internal and I'm no longer directly supporting Michael's vision anymore in local mode the I would love to tell you that like our approaches is all roses in great the local node deployments have its cost it in doing that there's a lot of boilerplate work my team has to go invalidating environment files and packaging of proposing again in the right place they add a lot of manual work for my folks and something were working to get out of of but no did you will need to cut corners with your with your rapid approach to on so organizational change and those corners will have a cost to the economy as part of a cost yeah and it's easy to the end of a project or a friends say no who would just and these other things differently we wouldn't have the problems we have today but in the in with the local mode we came out of a situation where we really understood why ships are was awesome and in and I was great but I would totally don't again we had those problems but we were predicting that the chef server was our next thing that John needed but if he would not have we would if we would have not done that next iteration a we would never learned that this was the really next important thing i in that's the key outcome a lesson we had was of the lesson that you cannot really predict very far out on what the next important thing is going to be you have to iterate and when you try to yeah I don't I have a plan in place we have a long-term vision and that would be iterated we saw that was the next thing and John I book of my experience and continuous innovation that stuff maybe totally on board with with what John was doing in the investments led to these Americans so we have the scale of it on the horizon last January and it's have important to take a step back and think of things empathetically through our customers perspective I In even the business community a lot I mean very few organizations that don't feel threatened right now are existentially as so they are being threatened by an Amazon or Netflix who were born in Arab be somebody who's disrupting their their industry and disrupting their potential leadership in that industry is very large organization and our customers still same way they know that if you're 13 . 25 and you're not going to be able to order a chicken sandwich on your phone you might go to the 1 that story you can
I'm in so they feel that crisis they also didn't grow up dreaming about being a technology company of and so the the leadership is really about in the hospital you this sector is really about so bringing people together with food and good food in creating great experiences with that and so the partnership with people like NCR to create that create these technology are considered in even envision 10 years ago and so they're facing this existential crisis they want to get into the online ordering apple ordering type of business and uh Johns software is is going to be the API driver to make that happen for them and so it's a good figure go on kind of moment for them so Johnston explain a couple of situations we had with the scale of Sept helped us deliver the services to to a really key but unnamed customers have yet but they by what 5 hours the database that wouldn't that on that the question was that what was the original down time window the turn in the 5 minutes yeah the we had a my product had 1 and it was developed in the past is actually the point logic wrapped up into a seizure compiled with windows form and when former so but in yeah was resemble and a word from time until it major scale so on a scale of 1 we got out of a large pizza chain customer on in the northeast and like when the last time you order a pizza and you didn't do it on like and I can remember media called somewhere but it's been a really long time online sales are really big important part of the pizza business and what it shows us as a part of which is which is really cool for us and she was a baby and by investment face and that they they totally surprised us that we we said the infrastructure we've our your servers and work the opportunity to make that happen and we plan some overhead and Cyber Monday occurs in out of nowhere servers are like the weight of the edge like terrifyingly close to the edge of you went through that we we we it's OK pizzas sold and we find out after the fact like hey need you really like yes we offer about the promotion everybody and what that's also called I'm glad we make a successful by the way it was so good they were going to continue to do this throughout the end of the year every Monday and everybody knows about so is going to be even better and more Italy but this Thursday before Monday right so it turns into like this that and again really problem of where operations scene and vomiting came together on this energy rating you we we ca lions we created a bridge and we need a double it is in a sense by Monday you have a ready by Saturday article about Saturday so that we can test it Saturday nite and then sunday watch it let bacon attributing is good what the customer successful Monday and this is the 1st really big proving ground for shaft inside and see our because we've gone through a beginning the story and you'll using single yeah and see the hockey stick is going happen candidate for it and is the 1st time it's here and we gotta make it happen I never leaves me with the skid done and it works right no problem money rolls around were able to get all the stuff done the servers are in place customers successful in there so successful may like it so much they decide to invest even further analysis and go for national and promotions Bennett new national like radio and TV ads for the promotions I in the following year which leads to a 5 x increase over or attracts increasing dataset sizes the on the next major emergence that we love and we refer to as checking and of 80 unnamed southeastern purveyor of chicken in a fast food setting of tells us that work we're going to go library even even i investing in technology for a number of years we're going to eat work release app for interoperability at there and we're going to give away free food and so on yeah that's that's terrifying and write really terrifying free food gets everybody especially national and so we are 4 numbers and we in those numbers off reporting and say hey using existing environment we have tell somebody servers were indeed a skill to yield analysts and of your borders most production like environment was a fairly small which major of estimations of all of and they come back with a ludicrous like 10 increased or the RTE doubled and 5 x increase the dataset a and dataset a mercenary member this room like the numbers written on the board here on the side of all forests in order to steer the number of what is this even mean by MIT might think were OK because I want to point 1 that's 1 thing when you put into it something different when you a point at 3 it's the seems to be the right way yeah and this time I think John I taught in right this is gonna be great Fisher score and were of the point is you know the this number of servers that that has previously mind-blowing is going to go off without a hitch what a great loss of so this is really was subsidy the operation team because during the you know those boxes yet but so we we take a step back from a like a list that maybe that's not the right way to approach this a habit We provision performance assessing environment and create a rapid upon the pipeline of performance testing environment make a production like pretty pretty large I'm with the do because we had shown right there are given the ability to go and I and just you rapidly you test things fixed but you can go on and it is deployed multiple times a day and they do that and up like me while I'm going my way think it 8 and daddy's can disappear for like a month for guerrilla close to this chicken thing and I'm not gonna be overcome problems so take pictures on and I have like a month out of the promotion after they've been iterating so globally and fixing a lot of things in a real good job on a new number is written on the board is exactly the number service URI production right so the chef didn't just allow us to scale allowed us to build infrastructure that see the business ludicrous amounts of money and and prevent an emergency so this thing that we thought was the death march all the way up and to release my error on your promotion i didn't happen by we just sat there and watched it and the scale right and it was OK and low there's the hockey
stick I thought was gonna come in 2 years ago the and there's no problem you the customer hits the turtle within days the really great stories reveal a customer it's great for us it's really good for shaft and deadlocks NCR because that's the 1st time that we can really show and massive scale but you're investing in agility will pay off can we get and so you the the right the and in this way and drew what's the 1st Abila say like like the performance testing environments like 30 . stimuli go ballistic interapplication of 40 30 machines will just discuss this production like mn yet yet the in and by the way he had invested in his continues innovation pipeline because I didn't make him go on the death Michael's you know key initiatives he did something he he invested in that that turned into a rapid proper for assessing from this production like environment which eliminated the need of increasing resources and production partial sucking chest because the code can just blasted the performance of our men over again you have to get started but then the last thing we attach a all of it is that they can decide if I call the stuff happens you we were actually targeting this outcome but new we're able through low balance rotation clever the shaft and a base change variable was triggered on time window from 5 hours to 15 minutes 5 minutes depending on on the number of database changes in at least so what is the overall customers and totally unplanned but we got so that was the the question is can I don't know what kind of data is chains of referring to and so we we you have 2 weeks friends on that it's of multitenant applications over time as a and and a sequel database on it's a schema changes but sometimes like if you happen to be lucky that release and you get the water table change that has millions of records that you can take a while especially your smart before the columns none of yeah but again like you is your list of modern uniting plan for it's there as a further additional ways to justify your best of in was so I the I so point wise relax was the question do we have that there a need on we have surely there is a need I'm not sure if we tackled that and yet because it has been the most important problem in brain our relax site before and after release target right so we have the ability like in time of need to uh but Ross severely exercise that yeah in this situation the performance problems were at the application layer data layer so they in the world I don't like them so our final lesson is that you've got move on so you know I had a a roadmap and place of for implementing show and organization train my phobism clearly internal might you go of the knowledge base so that users all these we saw the stick and so John was doing the right thing I was doing the right thing so John invested in this and I was just talked about I invested into the working with energy and also another thing I'm a student is working with the security organizations so turning them from uh you doing shaft as a threat to being Schaeffer's it as an opportunity for compliance and velocity of but we kept supporting each other brain and inference had kept on so some of the things he's doing interval will actually help on my CI processor like I have a lot of problems like Conway paradigm for good with my deployment artifacts and a migrated between environments turns out your policy fella you would do that so on some ICI problems are really benefit by what he did not what he's doing we still among the same calls 11 product pressure I can but not focus anymore and that's a good thing because in 1 product cannot be your continual focus and as a takeaways xv other than like my team is also so you can handle cool things but you know you select a couple things that I think you should you should really take away surprisingly falsely the audience what the 1st is make sure that you're always solving real problems that you've got by you could get yourself into a business justification problem really fast resale and this is really cool thing it's can take a long time it's also for you and if you really target current business problems and solemn as quickly as possible but keep an eye on the vision that you want globally I you never have anybody pull you know born it's a I think you're you might be with her time and maybe we should put you that in the development and everyone will think you're a rock star but a good place to be and my lesson is to use as much of the existing processes possible it's really easy to come to a conference like this and in and chess grand vision of of everything you get really excited about it and undecided about as well but I break the grand vision down into bite-size chunks that I can experiment with and implement and China to get too many people afraid and theoretical so what is the next thing that everyone would be like that it's a little different but I'm OK with that with that thing that we can do right now to drive this grand vision for and the least of the less I talk about devil of server or some ethereal in state that I wanna get to of the more efficient and effective I am my orientation of the final take away is that we are suffer company we have our customers at this money for software on and that's also we love it but but that also means are you should really understands the investments needed to go out to create the the growth that we want to create within our of organization and executive support for us is very easy and so you can hear a lot about you know fighting with you leadership to get them to let you do this kind of thing and maybe you guys being shipped off I don't have those by tutors since you're here but if you're watching a reachable whatever we didn't really talk about that and I think that's probably another talk of be interesting to listen to and what executive support and if you're having problems with that the ship customer success programs really great way to get some insight there there really helped us out of not being so there's residents of so that is
talk and we are almost at time I think we haven't had time for a couple questions my yes you know what you guys and it was the goal I don't know the the more right yeah the question was where the interaction between the 2 of us we're really on both on inside the development and vertical or not between their roster yet in in I kind was making a transition right now I am inside of of the production access operations side of our organization but still maintain a development titles so it's kind weird but but it is not a lot yeah part the question is do we have to get operations on board with it and how difficult was that I the beaches there was a challenge with a given them on board the outcome of a really solid from automation to create the scale of growth that we needed all models the particulars were little difficult I know for a fact a operations I was starting to look at public before we started this answer to train will but they're just a little bit but enough to make the release the technological choice of little sandpapering here and I think also I didn't know and respect the cultural difference between development operations enough to be able to find size of the problem so I was at at the beginning I came out from a development perspective of all this is changes can be also commands don't work and they came out and the perspective of developers are also are idiots when they say that the ruin everything and a lot of my time in these early meanings action on the promise of this position McCann when negotiating divide between the 2 like that this is michael this is what operations just here's how it this is what I call really means here this not is that a chaotic period of you certainly yeah I'll get a local mode was a big 1 was not I I I totally what would the delivery style lecture server to rule them all my code flows from development although in the production note we have new multiple stops here but if it were not the only people in this environment we have to with the time yeah the at the and you the yeah so the question was do we have difficulty marking our and prod environment in early environments definitely and I will be the 1st person standard this the wrong way on my model was like it it was a brownfield happen then deployed for a number of years before I got there so my approach I like the metaphor is the cookie cutter it we can build a cookie cutter the fit that I took the cookie-cutter MSN genomic you Himeko those of the evidently that's the fall off a list modify the cookie-cutter selected both he would also you 18 and the protein's production the problem is with every every environment and you cut off a little bit of your environment and so on problems are created and that there really such mappings approach the 1st time and we started this 2 years ago and is again another so on time and and we come a long way in last 2 years but you know the 1st time a proper shift because problems mineral back and refactor that given the place of my i guess another western would be like stock prod down here and there is no way for us to take pride in putting into QA because it's a public-facing at end security super essential the processing credit card data so we I mean I had a server the testing environment forward in the list that I learned that I
have different product is is really a pattern to which are going to broader agenda or even test to create new machine provision shop on that in a given the other chain so you have sort of supernotes ship built machine it was part of the lessons that you were learning is that you can rancher on top of something that already been dealt with it really know all the changes that happen server using it to learn you do you want to hear part production improved approach production you there in Phoenix every box yeah absolutely I were outside John I will be on the hallway with a answer other questions that you have and will be out the next half hour so these guys it's just like times