Enterprise Chef: Bringing Technology and Teams Together

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Enterprise Chef: Bringing Technology and Teams Together
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Generating excitement and interest around a DevOps transformation can be difficult in any organization. When you are trying to do it across ten, the complexities are at an all-new level. One method to bring people together is to rally them behind a central cause and tool. We chose automation and Chef as that starting point. Like any complex and highly effective tool, Chef can only prove its value through training, proper use, collaboration and support. With these things, Chef is a powerful weapon for configuration management and consistency. Our approach focuses not only on how to wield the weapon, but how to do so with finesse. Pauly will speak to the cultural movement within Hearst, and how Chef is bringing teams together and removing reliance on the “caped hero”. Sharing a common goal, language and approach not only brings the team's closer, it makes accomplishing goals smoother. He will showcase the challenges and show how we overcame them so that the position of the team is now one of cultural and automation enablement rather than another step/bottleneck on the continuum. Aaron will share our journey from classic data center to the AWS cloud with multiple business units, including Fitch. He will discuss techniques used to mentor rather than just train people in the Chef approach. He’ll show how to overcome the challenges and roadblocks associated with migrating a complex application to the cloud using a tool like Chef, along with CloudFormation templates, and Chef deployment mechanisms.
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welcome everyone very excited to be here talking with you guys today I will talk a little bit about Hearst business media and how we've been using tools like chef to bring the community together of the talk was strategic level in a tactical level a little background on Hearst Business Media HBM we have about 10 business units that operate more or less autonomously from 1 another and we were looking at tools like chef to help bring those teams together you know that 1 the interesting things for me is that I don't normally think of tools as a unifying subject tools often times but don't bring teams together in fact they can be quite divisive and you know you can think of some examples like the Ibis Emacs right and obviously 1 of these is far superior to the other you know which ones that Linux vs. Windows another fantastic example maybe give vs. Jeff that maybe share point versus the other 99 per cent of the world's greatest some Comic Sans right vs. 0 come on really the Oedipus comics so I have to stay behind pudding which is a little hard for me small wonder so I started thinking OK how can we look at tools as a way to bring people together we really want to focus heavily on a dead deadlocks approach with it within
h-BN so I started thinking about in order to drive Dev Ops we needed to have solid collaboration and really solid collaboration requires good communication and you can communicate without a common language is so I start thinking of the tower of babble and how we had this issue where developers would speak 1 language arts would speak a different language and how we use that we use chef as a bridge to bring these 2 together now Hearst is a very large organization and we could have taken a sort of very standard corpora approach to this right 1 were you had an active you know you never to our project kick-off meeting and no bathroom breaks and by got by the end we would have a decision usually to have another me so what we did instead was a so take a very informal approach this sort of focus on the behaviors that we want to and that is the Dev Ops approach right that's going to collaborate so we just created a slack room and invite everyone to the table and the idea was that we would have a just open form communication so if you're familiar with asynchronous is versus synchronous of coding a we'd want any blocking right we 1 only have things working when we're in a meeting and want build this ad-hoc invariant formally in this work to really really well for us right we're focusing very heavily
notice on the culture 1st even before making the tool choice and this was wonderful so I really started thinking of tools don't make a culture right there a byproduct of the coaches and so if we if we continue along that line of
thinking in apply Conway's Law not only to designing and deploying architects and systems but also to choosing tools it's still really fits right we tend to select a tool that works for our communication patterns in our work for us it yeah we also focused on Metcalfe's and that is the more voices we had in the communication the better the output was going to become were more likely to come to a underlying decision then if I just made the decision and was prescriptive in how we rolled out so this was working very well for us
and we felt like we had a lot of momentum a lot of velocity built up behind this chef was becoming a clear choice for us fit very well with our communication patterns may feel very well with this sort of deadlocks informal approach to how we were going to do things but I started thinking about you tools are a lot like cars it for some people a chorus of personification of the personality it's an extension of who they are right they tend to self identify with for a lot of us we tend to do that with our tools it and so I started thinking OK we wanna make sure everyone was at the table and not just a couple of key developers and a couple of key obstacles right what everyone so we nature folks like support
right so support was invited to the table only had a very solid waste they're very important to this developers and operations of course were
included and so they were probably the key stakeholders but they were the loudest voice in the room sometimes we invited managers
right and if we could tear them away from leisure pursuits they were there in the meetings and they came in very ad hoc fashion at a lot of value that
people sales people were invited to the table so was wonderful for us to have this sort of ad hoc conversation around a shift the right tool for us the reason that we ended up with chef was because we had a lot of common problems across these different verticals inside the businesses everyone is facing a similar problem in the thing the ephemeral environments and the push button in the fasting the consistent so this was just 1 tool that really that there multiple tools that you can do this all the way down to this writing your own but this will get our culture the now I know what you're thinking right that hundreds of people in 1 slack room trying to decide anything cells like absolute bedlam India kind was right so that was the point was we needed a chaotic environment we needed an environment where everyone could feel free to have a voice speak up no I'm not going to sit here and say that everyone agreed on chess right at the end it was like a unanimous vote so it's it's a kind of paraphrase Turing right know Shahab supported the people will not all people right no tool that's ever existed had support of all the people in so we did instead is focusing on everyone agreeing that shepherds the right tool we all agreed to support the decision whatever it may be in the support each other and I ended up being a much bigger value gain for us rather than distinction the tool which just happen to be the tool right because it was well aligned with our objectives and what we would how we operate and that was wonderful was a great win for us strategically culturally but then having tactically deployed shaft to 10 different business units that run autonomously it's a huge challenge so what we did was we created a internal consulting were we have dedicated engagements with the business units and the idea there is that we are sort of like a force multiplier essentially we go in and help reduce the resource-constrained issue everyone is super busy everyone has a lot going on right you're trying to just keep up with the with the product pushing features down the pipeline so you know I got a lot of the back of people saying it was a great idea call you believe in I don't know when a connection to this and still have the the people the resources of the money so we put this team together in a sense to try and help them overcome that that barrier to to entry and so areas here today to talk a little bit about that weather's tactical engagements with that 1 of the business units third-order thank you all talk this talk of the back right and thank you very
much quality of my Amazon blight on 2 things you don't care and to know about me I grew up in the quad cities which is a collection of cities on Illinois and I will border in which you have a sleepy portion of the afternoon but luckily I don't think we drew the hungry portion of the afternoon so also make this interesting for you but
other factors in no me I love pizza where I grew up in the quad cities sparsity style pizza is cut these long strips and when you go pick it up it just absolutely falls apart in and the grease is the Greicius sausage and pepperoni possible so you think the box and fall or before you all free can also and I love it so Boucher
on the 1st day I went to other business units and I started talking about shelf 1 particular group those working with ever heard all these things on the very 1st on so we use chef to create those machines right on the take some refinements we don't want I would you think will have the golden images are ready to hand over to death into we lifting Scheffer decades worth of software over in the next 6 months our next 2 months on these are all valid questions on the so intimidating and so they are faced with my view of the world are currently so Wikipedia lists 13
styles of pizza North America 1 of which of course is somewhere and wrote quantity style pizza so you volunteer 0 volunteer right here on so do you like pizza yeah what kind of piece of your you the New York pizza from New York City on we like about it error in the data what society what's across like it yeah that part of the state right now what and is she's does is a matter rollers it shares of land there is that you know was last habits 2 years old the give good memories of the title the yeah
but most people actually listen with the intent to I do not wasn't the and understand that specialist with the intent to replies comes from Stephen Covey of very popular book 7 habits of highly effective people so we've learned in these engagements is a we ask follow-up questions personally I'm working on trying not offer solutions until addressed at least a couple of questions to follow up on any answer that idea is an interesting phenomenon that we have a technical people that will start answering questions that were never asked because we know the answers to those questions so you start answering things and talking over people right as technical person myself I have to temper that in myself answer by asking questions about pizza just a minute ago was able to reveal more of the y instead of just that initially answer of the New York style pizza and some of the reasons behind and some of them so a little more of the what so people begin when confronted with
evidence is contrary to the beliefs and if you're trying to influence our change teach something in the most effective thing to do is listen as opposed to simply like pushing the ideas that are more the information you have is a quite and are counterintuitive tomorrow logical brain of learned the hard way I'm a number of times by my career sigh presenters also logical argument right it's super it's absolutely bulletproof everybody will agree with me that is the exact right thing to do right and then we go to do it like it is a work and I don't understand what so as far as something visceral thinking ahead about the most recent on Facebook argument that you saw where you participated in where you were absolutely right and did you actually changing one's mind I ordered the person actually changing one's mind you know came with all these facts backed up everything that they were around thinking so the 1st lesson that I have for you
guys is to listen here is a list of questions
appalling I've come up with over the past 6 months on these questions can save us a lot of time are we start we only ask are more questions based on the answers to these and then only offer solutions if were directly asked the them you'd be surprised how long you can go out before you actually asked for your opinion right so the questions are a very visceral it to be on like what keeps you overnight bring worried about can you draw from me how you think your system are currently works or the time about this offer solutions that the you deliver like what where you delivering to your customer How does X fit with why the draw for me and tell me why you favor process How would you with that apart make that better and then sit back and listen and has asked more questions but so here's possible are ingredients so we can have repeats of women make a pizza here together so as anybody in the room gluten intolerance their so we've got 1 2 accused of our misery was very and I 1 of those so we we can release she is as a revision theory of and so on but basically what we have left is of vegetables and tells us on the point is that we're not going to agree on everything if we've got a large collection of people right so we have to start somewhere even if that sound assume that G tomato soup on this disagreement you have
should not be overbearing so we started with our business unit and we can start
by trying to agree the renews Burchell for which particular cookbooks routinely use or our agreement was ever going to use AWS and winner tried confirmation shaft who travels things out you prefer concept since he feels right on we need to find a way to manage secrets we knew that we had to find that we don't know what the exact implementation is going to be In the configuration will be jointly done by both having an ox it the so the 2nd thing I have for you is
agreement you have to find that agreement and that agreement secondary about every single thing but it's going to be from listening and actually find things that are common so me Tarantino this for a minute and
back up to before we started this engagement on with the business unit Fitch there's a lot of groundwork that we laid in the space of education on have to make sure that somebody on the inside knows what's going on and then end of story backwards and forwards like including work and so as in the bathroom
that so we serve education we let 1 our discussion together users connected into Chef server and a chapter K I and solved we did about 8 of these sessions the one hour sessions on because we knew that scheduling lies 1 to get a large number of people to at least have Chef installed so they could start on using this and we did this across all the businesses there were brought in on shelf on like educators a shelf to do a 2 day course such a fundamental so we can get those aren't sneezer on such matter experts to really know what they're doing these for business units and we have focused sessions with this particular business you know where we are and we took the Apache cookbook and we do things with it and at the end of the two-hour sessions with the away then i safe environment where we're creating something we're learning something but we don't have all that weight of 0 gosh I have to maintain this and that scares me and I don't wanna making mistakes the nothing
that we did in the background as we set up our enterprise Stephanie AWS so there's our current architecture for the enterprise search server we do not manage back in Chester somebody that are in the process of how does not have a back in Chester a class um I found were using Amazon RDS in an hour with pose graphs and we're using Amazon electric of elastic search service and then we just have the front so that we can arm we can use our resiliency that's built in data you us and we autoscale those front ends and we have our own version of running up there on the front so this gives us like all kinds of arms resiliency and the other piece that gets us is I think we're spending about 100 hours less on on per month on Amazon services to Romans so this is completely open
source you have to revise Smith on to thank for this he relates peers you find in the conference you should buy beer and I asking about it but you tailor their confirmation template in our cookbooks to help us price shot up this way the answers we provide suffers a
service on a team the 1st thing we ask for is now select on which we already had on to go over with 1 of our our business units the fish was trying to say that well we should run the shop server ourselves and were like well that's really the benefit that we have and we put a lot of research into this and have it set up for you and look over the resiliency in the numbers of we can show you will keep it are maintained an up-to-date in and give you those things were able to convince them through the way that we on both were prepared on RD had software ready for them that they should go on with us a centralized service snuffer
some education pizza but Americans eat of about 350 slices of pizza per 2nd so about 100 100 acres of pizza per day which brings us our 3rd
lesson which really happened 1st in the timeline of the world on the you should educate and enable answer the low price of roughly about 3 days per person I really set is based on our understanding of Scharf are we can start to build on as we do our engagements so after listening
listening educating the green we jump right in and this diagram here is purposely rudimentary that's a culmination of 3 diagrams we drawn many times on the board in those 1st couple days so walking through this
diagram what's look just at the top part I'm eventually we want to build up to using cloud formation on the set of these 2 things the chef note enormous however we need to work up to that so 1st we're gonna use on test kitchen with vagrant on local machines of our developers then we're going to move on and use testation easy to the next step will be to use knife to which will build this up to using confirmation to bootstrap the chef server and at the node in the run the
move to the bottom half of the diagram on which we plan to use wrapper cookbook pattern which is really popular will give more than the 2nd phrases to our next lesson
which is start even if it's wrong so here's the
rules that we are mn agreed to live by is once you on all cases right as local possible wanna rely on existing ship paradigms on so the chef resources the builder and a Musharraf and then rely on community cookbooks when those are available and then use application our wrapper cookbook and on to focus on the specific applications that are owned by each of them by this particular business you because sections of teams and business unit where I can concise recipes with only a few calls to resources so for the i concise recipes with only a few calls resources the more active resources that do a lot of the works around right custom resource cookbooks again 1 rely on the community cookbooks when that's appropriate armories key indicators that we see inside of supermarket is a post 1 . 0 somewhat what followers are the key community members that are part of it are they actually closing the issues and get out of on and then if a if we can find many cookbook we might find 1 of that's close sible fought that will rename it which is a really important thing to do freeze over Chelsea don't get in collisions and on animals are working from there's no taken on some ownership and then the last case were actually create custom resources as a last resort but we also do so during this process a we we we're a lot of the readme files I feel like this is on my key weights arms to know how to utilize things are just more linearly could have been are and really driven development is also select you start to write out what you're actually doing before you actually do it so many years ago I work with an architect who is my manager challenge me you need to learn how to write code without writing code right so the 1st week during the day on it was totally hands off the keyboard for me this was absolutely excruciating right we would put the code up on a wall the talk through it I would build coded 98 and throw away not look at it only Treasury created to someone else's fingers on the keyboard the next day so for anyone looking to grows a developer I suggest finally put yourself through this experience on some people call it pairing some people call and taurine eyes color communicating and learning are making sure that you're also teaching while you're on the process of learning because the questions you can ask for the people that you're teaching along the way the questions that you're never going to come up with on your own so you end up learning more deeply than on then you would just by itself so that brings us to access and which is to
make up rules to live by bond so again we
plan to use wrapper cookbooks are diagram ended up looking more like this after we've
spent more time on it which is a little bit prettier on but it's the same basic idea is that we have these really short recipes and the short recipes call out to arm resources they're going to do the bulk of our work so those resources easier like Apache cookbook a job cookbook our the ones that our community aren't and but then we had to write our own for wild flower in spring to so the
look up look at the code here the survey stressed the reusability here and this is when talk about very simple recipe right you should we have a group a user in the application rules set up on this helpless in 2 different ways that future decomposition on meaning that we can shoot for running 1 of the acts on a single mom chef-client because initially were trying to lift and shift in the running everything VM where all on the same node so we're going to move it into the of US that way maybe until get smarter and then we actually start breaking off into separate eyes this also drives me repeat ourselves the application be ends up
having 1 resource called 1st we do all the error checking to make sure environmental stress that because it's on so we measure over at tributes sudden no or empty string theories we so we swing through those and make sure that I have something things that otherwise we on the air out really early and then we just go straight to the resource the resource is
huge right on its were all the logic for installing and configuring application lives as uses a lot of mostly relies on primitives and shuffled directory templates service excetera was where the logic is to so what did we ran into is it's really hard to you on consumer Tessa custom resource when you using another cookbook and you must check in the code on and delete of the Birch self-doubt Larkin poll that down respond perversion think it's rather come cumbersome so what we did
was we switched over in called a on a recipe that lives in a custom resource cookbook the listener test fixtures on folder so that when we've got a cookbook inside of cookbook that x is exercises are custom resource so that we can get a development cycle to be really really fast custom resource without having to check out on all the time on on the wrapper cookbook that's using this custom resource skills incredible lifting wherever the right resources in a couple days as opposed to you know fighting with things back and forth and making bad decisions and not putting encoding and because the cycle is too long
but so that only works down underneath were really go back up when you try to build up on this thing here where we start with on test it's an invader and then
we aren't we take basically the stock there instead of calling a test recipe right and then remove that indication easy to as you see this is a little more complicated but 1 of principle that we have here is 1 to make sure that we don't take any credentials because no 1 that to be honest we set environment variables and so we have a separate revocation idea on kitchen Institute idea more we set the environment variables have credentials on a on a local machines and our speeding up E C 2 instances on just like we would come from our kitchen of data then we
move to confirmation we exploit the fact that you can use that user data field to deliver batch commands a confirmation on however like if you're familiar with this at all like it's terrible is batch inside a J.
Simons like strings that are executing all this past commands basically this heavily Liona team on primarch
every day don't posting things like this is our slack channel about how frustrated he was with strings there were batch inside adjacent so we clean this up
considerably arm into 4 sections so in fact that batch we update the OS based on their we use a bond to around positions use are L we acquire the script this checked right next to this and we set the environment variables for the script use then we run the script and script does all that work on the uh and this is much more of an elegant but this is still common no punk to work with so
we have this also open-source and checked in our and get out so this scripts on that that sits next to the j son is not testable as long as we set those environment variables on E C 2 instance so we can just spin up an E C 2 instance and we can run that script and it's going to on bootstrap and shove servers the run list on and give us actually up going and have a cookbooks on there the available social enough code almost all the code that we write our in the space is open source you can become can be found in of the on such Hearst 80 emission team so this is what we
ended up with I'm and we're able to actually stand out from the application of which was pretty cool on the quad cities also
lays claim to being the origin of tackle pizza what's a like or some piece of her right arm which is something that actually love that since I was growing up and still lose their love taco pizza on happy just created tackle pizza by mixing 2 things that they were never intended on being together tacos and Peter right answer sometimes you need actually fork something on that super awesome and make it better I'm celebrity to
my next lesson is be agile and break those rules that you just created on so in some cases the community cookbooks that we started with the densifies so we started on 14 more and more those because were more more comfortable arm which shaft and this goes up and running really quickly to get something running but also helped us move quickly on throughout time
for the 2nd week that I was up there doing no harm the engagement with something which we did have a room so we're in this library right Fitch has been around for a on like a hundred years right in the use of published these volumes so you can kind of see off on the side of ratings are in a yearly type of long book that would that would go out right and then they moved on also with technology as technology has moved through the years I remember seeing a lot of books like fusion laying around now they are urbane is also my job absence of so that they were on in no way scared of actually making on this move on to the box so
the new rule that we created I was around runless and on environments so is my 4th step comfortably into and every year there's like role that you have heard about much this year I use still love roles I think that on some of the shelf success Engineers Battalion of roles too much because we created this monster my lecture where we have like way too many roles or whatever but I can see how they could be over user stacked on top of each other and create a huge mass so our rule was aware base role for the on the infrastructure layer to help us out of all the things on the way that we wanted for security and versus some admins and then we have for the application cookbook if there's any attributes that we needed to use would use environments arm and that way we only need on to come together at that environmental level on so my
next rule is to foster open communication on an interesting thing about features of the dead is in Chicago and operations on runs in New York
so by asking these 3 questions are more answers have come from people working together than I have actually provided by myself remember and neither on these teams are normaI I like the proverbial like understander of all the things like a lot of people ask me questions and some work remote I'm looking that up on google about 200 grams in and not some oracle by any means so the questions a fairly simple on that's a great question can you ask that and of the specific selectional associated with that excellent on where that project and so we can all see it in an and you know there is a confluence stop for the
and the my final on guided is pitted start answering questions with cut our questions so for 0 for this a little like my favorite
guy so creates right I'm I cannot teach anybody anything I can only make them think onboard Ted like all we are as dust and when so for the younger folks is moose huge rotative lied and Austin our the so by the way the co-organizer
of the last year the city and I registration and Call for Papers is open and we love long have you guys come up to Kansas City if you haven't Casey are looking
me up with Minsky's pizza are my favor on the menu is a cheeseburger pizza the menus as the sources sweet but I'm pretty sure that it's ketchup and mustard right and of course there's hamburger and onions pickles on and process it does is it on the menu but if you ask they will put bacon on it to make it bacon cheeseburger pieces which is super awesome and for those you believe this
presentation was on a little too heavily on pizza I would remind you that your company were you paid a lot of money to come to a conference on shaft which has all sorts of food meaning to things so a lot of your non-technical friends are going to know what the heck you were talking about we come along and say you went to a conference on shaft so least you learned a couple things about it the not so as honestly as the few here than in the new questions and the was the sororities roles at all anymore because it doesn't mean that the the don't except for the base but besides that the roles in a row but for the most part we've so we had to get to the evolution of where we want to and now they're getting to where the speed of machines where the coaching them to stay with environments and then when they go to that you 88 come and another test environments and abroad we want so environments across board OK so what are you advocating 2 layers of recipes or do you actually think they having recipes include recipes include rest pieces OK 1st 2 layers like an inverse below that a resource oriented approach is that their model that or advocating is to keep it as simple as possible and tell we have found that next later and I think that the to that soon arm and there we might put another layer of cookbooks on top of it uh if you like seen some of the rapid vocal patterns of people use where they put all the attributes and have no rules they have natural it's never switch-like used of his UAT have the list of the attributes there so the only actually at the says that and you've got all 1 could do you have an opinion about how many layers of inclusion of rest use appropriate where for example organization currently thinks that a resource oriented approach is the way to go into minimal lies in the amount of inclusion of recipes in depth i'm because the using of community cookbooks underneath I think that end up going for 5 d on but I think the ones a you right I I would stick with the 2 levels like you have the rapid book and resources on it is my recommendation unless until you have complexity enough to go farther a the partial yeah look at this I think you've progress quite a bit in bounds of illusion of chef right so is just 1 going this time feel for that out any other use cases so in tons of using chance of invariants could be could it be used other than its cold attain also config management and for example are you using it for deployment of using it for the the batch except but for the the cost of project product on like the the chef-client that's actually something that I did from the slides but is something that we talked about a lot of this business unit is on you see all these things that chef is used for whatever arm and we have a new there's there's more products they know the talked about this morning I use the chef-client for what it's intended for which is configuration management and try to to box it into that and then use things like confirmation to do your orchestration and deployments because you have to pull in all of the harm uh the networking and and all that stuff so we will make sure that it is coded is checked in but again would keep it simple I would add 1 ring to that I've had since an organization use it almost as a CDN of just not that great at pushing large binaries the especially if using hosted ship and so again I think to Aaron's point right think about the core competency of the product and we do use it for compliance we do use it for some patch management and is something that we're looking at actually adopting more of trying to figure out how it fits our specific patterns at Hearst business we we have 3 verticals we have we've transportation we have finance which is Fitch and and then we have health care in all 3 of those have very differing needs right special compliance and regulatory issues and so are trying to find a way for chef to help with patch management and we also had a genius environments so of the probably 80 % windows 20 % Mix based systems that is kind of shifting maybe more towards the open-source index based systems as we move along 2016 and 2017 but certainly new projects predominantly in the cloud using things like land and others and so that produce is yet another challenge of OK how can we gain consistency for patch management compliance under it's something that were working very closely with chef on specifically around the health care units that require Hitler and PHI new dealing with lot of electronic medical records but that's a very sensitive area in those compliance this compliance of tactics have to be very tight because want to go to an all that they can be quite painful people everything but another yeah thank you and the but who's actually writing these topics that are being used you have like separate operational teams is being given directly to developers and then I kind of follow up on the the question was on who's actually writing these on and that's 1 minute on give my past experience in even this experience it started with some kind of a tools the cover Dev Ops team are they are kind of the last since stack and actually another digital with America help them are Scheffer 5 there on a lasting himself so not given time which is really going to all the different things so we've done with them but they started with it and they're they've been teaching the debt teams and actually worked with directly with the operational team and we're starting right that core-based cookbook that I have on the rolls around it so this kind of 3 pockets and there's like you know getting getting that core like I igniter team and the dev teams are are doing the 1 specific for their while fly in spring boots stuff because they know like the settings that you need and there's we compared teach them and the operations team with their very specific stuff that they want to do with with all the Linux and they're working set of and the you mention like specifically patch management I imagine that if you have a dedicated operational team they're usually the ones responsible for that sort of thing getting rolled out not the individual applications so how do you deal with coordinating those sort of like platform level we need to keep this confined we need to patch this with the application and stuff like that so I mean essentially you each business unit again operates sort of autonomously and so they have their own workflows the objective for us embedding in the team as a consultant isn't necessarily to define and be prescriptive is to be event or and sit alongside help guide those decisions that each 1 kind of approach is it a little bit differently which is actually a good thing because again that flexibility needs to remain in the business unit we have very little domain knowledge inside of the business In so maintaining a consistency typically we focus on workflows and process as opposed to tools at that point I'm trying to make sure that everyone is an agreement and alignment on how that's going to work again a cost 1 the big issues in the STL C is the fact that as you go through the value stream the lack of consistency between environments becomes more more apparent and more more impactful and this is where things like in you know containers and shaft and potentially habitat can really help us in so what we're trying to achieve here is if we don't collaborate in choosing the tool this is wire so ported to get together to all agree that this was the 2 we're going to use how you're going to have all these different workflows in and you have these huge friction points at the hand OS it typically that you have a much higher degree of fiction of friction at any time a human has to touch it so I can automate as much as possible the only way you can do that is to maintain consistent estate in no and and very little configuration drift throughout the process so that men it wasn't just that offering QA need security we need all the teams that we're going to contribute touch the code to be a part of the conversation agree in and we started creating those workflows we all did that together as a team so let's look at strategically on tactically I think with the the going after the stack the furthest thing for business unit is usually a mix of the the confirmation of said that the building on my eyes on using packer so that's when trying to help I get some of that base considerations as opposed to trying to logic patch management on through shaft there but theory you shaft to to do the actor in mind I think but the it's an ongoing discussion and as we as we all learn more about like myself included on it's been interesting discussion but it's not 1 that I think it as we've ever gotten the data center up into AWS they have fully answered yet so it's 1 have that more conversation with anybody in this room wants to to learn new better ways that we have to avoid sending you million and you future get few