DevOps Transformation at Absa Bank: Technical Evolution; Cultural Revolution

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DevOps Transformation at Absa Bank: Technical Evolution; Cultural Revolution
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There is one thing that makes up DevOps. Tools. Tools and process. Okay two things. Tools, process and culture. Among the things that make up DevOps, tools, process and culture are three. And of course, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition, which makes it tough to get teams to buy into new ways of doing things. We are delighted to share our DevOps transformation journey with you. First, there's the technical journey, such as how we are automating our infrastructure, and our software engineering practices (see Then there's the process journey such as how we have redefined our SDLC to remove friction, and our use of scrum. Finally, there's the cultural journey, such as how we're forming teams around customer value rather than functional silos, as well as our guerilla marketing campaigns (see Software mediates every interaction with our customers and the purpose of our transformation is to increase our ability to deliver higher quality software at higher velocity in the pursuit of customer value.
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but it's got a name was really and so of suffering genetic manager for UPS that I got a transformation of social engineering principles the organization ago as amended was an engineering manager that's animals you focus on structures a service so be taking 3 tools and processes OK so we tell you that a lot we come from so we go from sigh Africa Johannesburg um it's about a thousand miles away from Cape Town and we work for a company called apps about which is a financial institution apps has been around for about 150 years and get it employs about 4 thousand people just and as i division in 2016 acts as an organization made a headline earnings up 7 . 5 % to about 7 common to 5 billion rand you guys can do the calculation this so equivalent to a lot of dollars again and we know that we live in a very disruptive and innovative world the things are happening ABM be lower Netflix entreaty never heard a lot of that stuff today the right our saving grace really is that anonymous startups fail vec 75 % of them forever they are unable to cross the chosen to do some interesting things in pay unable to hit critical mass right and the the it's it's a low unfortunate because that means it gives us an opportunity to do something some some interesting things so Marc Andreessen rightly said he said supper is eating the world and if we do not adapt we will die right the I we agrees the
year off of Lean Startup he was pretty much in the same vein he he wrote a memo to himself he wrote a letter reminding himself that the sum of all take environment the way things are moving is Europe it's very difficult if we do not strategize if freedom not change the way we do things we will become obsolete OK so what did we do we decided you know what we want to go on this journey and all so we came up with 3 pillars we came up with an agile transformation to we came up with the DevOps and engineering to every came up with the leading teams some of you right now you might see the and measuring over here but this is part of a larger and this is how we learn anyway so when we tell you a little bit about the DevOps journey over demobs transformation we look fortunate enough to get a gentleman from ships His name was Jeff Hackett and he came down in this sort of helped us navigate this thing what this journey looks like what we need to do you know the conversations we had the tough conversations we had and if it is if it essentially we came up with something quite interesting we came up with the devil acceleration workshop that meant that we got all the soft engineering teams within the bank to come and sit with us for 2 days and those 2 days we sat down and give them a whole bunch of knowledge about agile about an MDP I'm hot everything came about we spoke about Conway's model we spoke about else so you know that a large number of material and then we said OK you guys after 2 days yeah good go back into your silence go back into your Babylonian systems and do something awesome come back and do something also show us what you've done the what do you think happens nothing right if nothing happened and and rightfully so it and it goes back to say you know I read a book from a barrier Riley he spoke about them he he he was also mean lean start up and those of little quote the book that said you know and good people in perversely design systems sometimes casually create great x of harm on colleagues and sometimes without even realizing it and Jeff Hackett also goes as far as saying that human beings are capable intelligent and whole it's the systems that we desire that are not good can we need to we need to think about that for a 2nd we need to think about it because we know that if we throw good people in these systems they will have that will die so we took another step back and we said hold on this is all about creating soft right we need to orient around
creating great stuff but it's about making great software and when we do that it's about orienting around our customer it's about arranging around tools and processes and touching on culture right everybody so that so took another step back and assess what is that really mean you know what does that really mean and we said well if it's a about the customer was we know that when a customer interfaces with the back of the interfacing some piece of software so what we wanted to do is enhanced experience we want to make sure that whatever they did added value
to their life and so we came up with the Magic Quadrant we call that the Magic Quadrant measured quadrant is
Dev Ops is a union of culture processes and truly care and what we did is we take develops lean and agile to continuously deliver customer value and innovation what is that look like a cat so we have to look at the way workflows into a system we looked at the Broca's we look at the things that we can remove so that we can add value back to our customers the and we embedded that with a little bit of engineering practices right I'm going to leave it here for but it OK and going to handle the 2 Andrew he's gonna talk a little bit more about what that looks like the recordings such a
lot if you articles so let me take you through our journey through tools and softly so as you can imagine a bank is full of strict controls and processors the upon layer of the many years and we've actually that and you can actually understand that we very resistant to change the but hey we wanted to create a great software but we had a few challenges to get her 1st so the 1st 1 was that was very difficult for us to get into infrastructure to meetings the processes would too slow and was eventually ended up taking way too long for instance you to take a 6 weeks to get a machine if you just start to think about that for a 2nd 6 weeks to get a machine that will we want everything instantaneously it's just not good enough was I let us fix was in great so when you try and rent kitchen or anything good eventually offered to machines this comes to stop laugh everyone is actually Internet access so because of all the strict controls on the bank I internet access is extremely restricted so if you wanted to do research was very very difficult for everyone to actually do research on download something that I wanted to say they wanted man that creamy month for example so the have you couldn't down that on site so you can download is what's next big you do you go home you download come back to right so many try installing greater need admin rights right so this was a very very frustrating so we thought about again what can we do to changes so we ended up doing was creating a completely separate and isolated network called engineering network now what engineering network is completely separated from our banking network which unblock school things that a previously spoke about this is a place we really wanted people to create and innovate but the thing that's are found is important is that with the engineering Eric you need a place in order to make great software so if engineering network didn't exist as she wouldn't be here giving his talk so let me take you through what our processes
used to look like so we analyze the flow of work going to the system and we very quickly realize infrastructure was actually a because block to me take you through the wire so that right so developer goes and requests infrastructure and once they go through that long tedious process of checklist you would then gets cater for provision by operations 10 the once that was done to the name go to another operations teams and still there it's then what those steam would do is attempt to install the application was the scripts that they got from the developers in an attempt to give system the drive then something classic happened between all the developers and the operations team this constant back-and-forth of no man's land of ownership and played out like the article there was medication starting she application sucks right so that so that's not played out the ends the the other problem with this is that each 1 of these points wasn't completely automatic so those manual kick between each stage and this caused again further delays but when she when she got to infrastructure and shit happens right you decide that you need additional dependency we've forgotten stole something we want change something and guess what the anything else the vector request followed very very similar process and no 1 wants to work like this we certainly don't want to such yeah so this is kind of where a tools journey started and this tools to this
board here is actually very it specifically about our shift journey itself so we try to do it the right way and run tools journey like an agile software project on board here you was fond both the data and the arts works so we understand this where it comes through a set of ownership between 2 the so now we've got this engineering at work and we've not decided that we got the tool that we wanted to use to shift so now than need is for this new want to watch it then we talk to you about the problems that we're trying to solve so previously in the banking environment we got stuck trying to create this big solvable its solution to solve all our problems and created this huge Goliath overly complicated pieces of software the problem was the for us to change technologies in the bank said like a monitoring tool and ideals or whatever we wanted to implement to try and do some 2 thousand so this was a system that's not completely automated as hell hard we also can give people safe access to the shifts over how do we do that and everyone's going changing things the so why shift so we chose shift because we felt that it was quot structured had quite a fold a feature-rich approach to even though the learning curve at the beginning was quite steep we found that for non-developers the operations guys it is we it was better for them to actually do the right thing because it had all the tools and test kitchen and everything that they need so this was uh it was God was it was quite structured so with the new network at tools and not processes we decided that sorry yeah so we decided to carry on and actually we wanted to automate everything so we excited right we want to get started we didn't wanna go through these long processes so what we did we opted to go for a stand-alone shifts over nothing fancy distorts will up and running in a day this is great so actually we went we mad we automated absolutely everything we can get our hands on it was graph but what was not so great as a starter running into problems so it's fine for 1 team to you shifts over but for multiple teams using shift so that it's a problem so the kind of things that they would do is they would log onto our shift environment and sort changing environments other changing into a vision that didn't exist or removing at really want hours and it created this massive minutes for us to try and manage and this was a great they would also what we realized is that not everyone had a pop 1 so the strict controls that we put in place for unpopular was not necessarily what everyone else has so then they would upload really bad code so this is where we decided to go which afford me a Shiv automated actually handles all of this for us we don't have to manage environments because it's done so what it allows teams to do is allows him to write and upload they chef cookbooks through workflow automatically we don't have to deal with that in all that is it true bring structure and also bring structure in terms of shift compliance and really touched on so check compliance is great because it gives you that come up front feedback so we can kind of be proactive rather than reactive With shift compliance and it gave us the tools to automate times structures code in alternating like tools and applications in a very very modular way which is great which is something I'll touch on a little bit later about how how easy it is to switch things but it was or a MOS around like nothing is we saw running to gain more problems so now what happened is so because we adopted shift coordinates so early on I think this was like loss shift compartmentalized and then we adopted a pretty much immediately after that so this ordering is other issues 1 is and I forgot a familiar with workflow a boulders disappeared after upgrade in said no and just stopped for everybody and this was a great then we tried to you because they engineering network has proxies With the slack integration wasn't working because it didn't support practices so that was a problem for us so yeah so we had a few issues with that and the 1 of my favorite 1 is that's uh with work was that she would push jobs we tried we had to do a lot of a division pending on the learning so as to actually get it to work properly but there's a bit of a silver lining to the story at time and Simon from share some of you may know them helped us work through these problems and but the thing that we really appreciated but the thing that we
really appreciate it is that this features that we wanted then what meant that actually put in a backlog so
now let me take you through a new process so this is what avenue process looks like and I should be familiar to you because it's actually a software flow of for you might be thinking OK so whilst what is this doing infrastructure because that's how we do infrastructure as code so that's what we do so previously unmentioned that's about this whole engineering network we've spoken about share the but the stuff that I didn't tell you about uh of about engineering network was that it was Bolton NWs it was also automated completely using shift and this is great for us so now we've got everything unlocked we can go to the instance we can not get all the things that we require so what we did is we started thank team called reasons no reason is both a team and an application it's an in-house product so we started the same DP as a orchestration tool and it connects AWS the more and a couple other things in the bank that we want what we also intended as we integrated which Daresbury promotion API call as I think of so now something extraordinary happened now we gave us access to everyone so now Product Teams can actually go and deploy their own infrastructure with chef in 1 step we previously use figure 6 weeks the ball the system enough it's a 30 minutes flat and unless the sestet that's something that we never had before and I was great so some of the benefits so what are the benefits of everything of spoken about up until now is that like a said with Schiff automated allow teams rotten upload them and cookbooks through a pipeline but now they can just good reason and say I want that cookbook and the whole system gets deployed we never ever logged onto environments anymore that the size city but them everything was automated fix the problems recurred we never ever demand the other thing with workflow is in greatly increased the velocity because of CSE Dept and I was fantastic so the 1 thing that are found and the mean there's lots of things that we can talk about that and is quite involved the catches of Atlanta but the 1 thing I can't I wanna leave you guys with is that the is nestled bullet solutions yeah it's yeah keep pets the keep its slim keep it simple because what it's really about is about adapting to change with little effort and that's a key point so what I'm going to do now is I'm going to hand
over back to bend to about culture the there intended to so that's the tuning process and there was the process right but in order for this to happen we need to have a really strong culture right and to be able to do something that took a 6 weeks takes us 30 minutes requires some work at the end in actually believe that culture is probably 1 of the most fundamental things in our organization the so what is culture right what cultural what country is shared beliefs and values that are developed over a period of time and that's of probably Wikipedia definition and we also know that the longer the organization has been in existence more defined the cultures so previously i said that look apps has been around for 150 years there so imagine trying to influence was steer their culture in a different direction so it's difficult thing to do here and now the thing is is that employees an organization don't we know the things that bind them together in organization that so if you can't manage the culture the culture war manager care and you don't want to be managed by a 150 year old culture is a very very tough and difficult place to be get so before I start talking about reason and that was something that they didn't want to lead as a story that the Cobra fix some of you might know the call reflect and any british people and I apologize in advance if there so maybe a hundred years ago maybe a a few decades ago there was some of the bridges imperialist that's on went to India to enough to colonize and they had a serious problem with venomous snakes I yeah so they set up an incentive for the winter local Indian guises said OK for any snake that you guys kill bring it back to us and will give you some money will give you some so what they did is the they went back killed a couple of snakes quarterback they got some money but the engines they realize that hey you know this is a good thing so what do they do they started breeding and I the sort of reading the snakes and then after a period time the British guys realize distinction getting smaller and smaller and so they said no I cut incentive without the Indians let the snake go so went back into the city caused a bit of mayhem but that is a sort of behavior incentive we don't want to be part of that is a sort of culture we don't want to you know we don't want to be part of so what we're saying is that we want to meet you where you are i take you on that journey whatever changes whatever of things we want do an organization we want to be there to go on that journey with I think so and alluded to a team called reason the reason they're fascinated teams um we start a of fairly basic with the in with the simple scrum bought a bunch a sticky and we said OK but we really want to quit we wanna go which look cultured we want a bit of this organization and we we said look at this part of that with an agile process missing this user but ascribed this to see what it's like because scrum all hedge I have some fundamental values we want to instabilities so things that courage things a commitments things like communication all those lovely things we actually embedded in the teens and this is what we want to these other things that we're going to do so can stand ups you know put on how to do retrospective delivered of planning teams go better and better and we said OK guys check your code in at least 1 today not to say that they want to doing that already we say this ticket XP principle as they do would attend East 1 today what happens quite fascinating there so guys started sharing the code people started to communicate a little bit better enough they wanted to sharpen their skills so they they Java development and you know the craft became a little bit better and was a sense of mastery within the team and so we moved away from the from from the boss of went digital you know we we said hey guys you know it reading OK this week every 2 weeks with giving something back to our customers because that was a how about we start which meeting some of the stuff how about we doing so do some autonomy in of something cool so start of alternating work and what what what what happened was we saw the team having a little bit more time to do other things you know they said hey you know about pure into 12 o'clock in the morning anymore at the time on my hands and I am so this study investigating this be creative this investigate tuning this see how we can do things a little bit better that created a sense of purpose that and that purpose was bigger than the team they realize that the work that we're doing is actually having an impact in the organization so we we we took a step back and say hey something course developing here this is this is nice we with actually called . culture this is the kind of culture we want an organization and I sort of alluded to what that the mission and vision was for the organization when we started the transformation agenda and really the mission was to think and build software like a take organization again we wanted to build software at high velocity and high quality we have started doing that but in the beginning it was tough we had to react to that people go we said hey you know these are the rules these other practices these are the things that we want to do if you guys are not and if you don't wanna be part of it we will let you go under different should you know we wouldn't keep them out of the organization we said you know you don't form into you know you don't fall part of our plan just try another team be and if you change your mind and see what we doing anyone a comeback by all means you know and and and that's that's what happened we we we created a sense of mastery create the sense of purpose would create a sense of of of adult Ptolemy entered something brilliant happened as so outages happen tried as Anderson we montages we had some problems people came in to work together they started doing cool things and we realize that we create an environment that was fail for speedy easy for them to fail in there was no there was no claiming it was it was it was it was a place where people wanted to be so and a lot of other things that happen here we moved away from KPI eyes in which to OK I wasn't or that cool stuff then we we said what we really wanna do as an organization what what we
wanna show from a cultural perspective goes this is the key enabling and organization and we came about 3 or 4 platitudes what they're not added to the 3 4 things that people may see is a platitude in the future huge the words that you see you know when you walk into organization we don't talk about we do that we do them and we show the value of 2 so things like collaboration things like creativity things like ownership right things that delivered value back to back to your customers those are the sort of organizational cultures that we want to instill in absence right so without without taking any more time without going on and on and bragging about the cool thing is that we do see that this is what I wanna leave with you again and a season that taking pictures can I you get the notion of if you want
to hear so what should you do when you go back at you organization what we think is that look at How workflows to your system whatever it is identify what those blockers or look at them and try and remove them and identify customer value look at what you can do to orient around your customer can secondly define your practices of front right what we say is you know right afraid to test but if you don't write a failing test is not going to prod define your practices opera let them know the like I said the cultural expectations define it trying to find trying to try and build it from the ground up you know don't on In the we know that Google and Spotify have some rich cultures in the organization and they use that to build a competitive advantage because they had the tacit knowledge and of the people right and we can't take that and impose it ourselves but we know that the if we start with our own you know we could we you know we will you will get better and be bold lastly be bold what we have is a practices of mastery website and what we do is we share our successes of this website for you guys mobile welcome to go and visit and take a look the so what's the future for absent where we going from here and
the short answer is we don't know the we we don't anticipate out we work in a way that we start to fumbled what we know and we we just take it going forward so that's us so if you guys have any questions please bone that this on the part of the life cycle of like this and so we just run the
let me know and in yes so good tracking tasks we actually used here we've got the entire suite installed posted on bamboo in then but we can use Jenkins as well the development tools as it is uh quite fast so that's shift workflow obviously is a mental state uh we've got love other projects lot of different types of development similar guys use uh code analysis like of cube and things like that and then the vision controllers honestly a lasting tool again in is that of tufas that we will say that the vessel of Microsoft guys code reviews well fecundities and ct is both Jenkins bamboo and workflow and yeah any other what that was so obviously we use inspect for the shift stuff specifically these are aspect uh inspect um we will say in a way reason itself was Bolton reviews that we use are spec there again yeah the question is on the 1
size and on of your graph you this has the following question what would know this is not right so this is the this is due on the time because object question ask your last question 1st at so we've been on this journey officially for 24 months Bob and OK and our team was of widely war we were in the same building the 1 called co-located so we had a couple guys from highest witches operations we had a couple guys from data couple guys in other branches the we said in order for this to be successful guys we need to sit in 1 room and we can't have so we you know we found the guys were able and came to join the journey is that this is a list of and it's figure it out together the and that's what we did we got to a point where we start with 7 guys we got to a point where 25 in team and we we thought she was in a stand up and and and a planning session is not taken as 2 hours to do which is an unreasonable like half the day is gone but wanted you know 1 of figure out what we want to do so we said let's break the team up slightly so this a billing component we make that and the team 1 that's all the with you know who have you are component maker that to you at the way we you know we ran obstruents and in our retrospective you right so we will always in the loop and that's what we did so with scaling up the was gaining out not necessarily formal component perspective but more from a product of feature perspective we said look the guys are doing billing and they another using it as a bit of interviewers who knows that that team itself could be could be a seed company with them with the maps so that's that's how we that's just to sorry and this ons you question also the testing of about a cucumber but because I environment is completely automated what we decided to do is you know when you got development environments and you kind of do something mn many new forget about it because project that would and what we do now is we have to destroy their whole dev environment every Friday we rebuild it on Monday um so here um at will muscles also those process all start of formal from an in the MDP and it's it's it's it's still work in progress it's not a summer shy product that you know how we use it to the end of the list of your of your eye and then I just was small in the whole and you and you know it to say the war with the only in the history of the and so so it so that's a fantastic question so when we started out with our transformation which only to do a big bag approach we said the whole organization everybody in that everybody has to transform we got you know about so that the top dog so to say to to to to to talk about the silence and say this is how you going to work and we realize that that didn't work and but some of those nuggets of information state various parts of the organization they started doing good things so you you can imagine compliance what we've done now is that we have completely automated the compliance process so of the the different human organization wants to build something cool and they get so point where in the bank that you have to check check list of all of them so the governance and compliance and this could be a 5 a 10 page document and sometimes we don't know this guy you know if it's going to get into product not but that process has not been automated into Jenkins so upfront before you start any day you know what your compliance controls operating in UK to those things before you get to the end of the process right within the a pencil you yes so we start us more i'd like instead we can go with a bang bang approach so we looked at like we spoke to internal customers of business units and it like what you because Paine put it said boats in the baseball the last system takes logs in the bank reelects 18 different applications of stacked on top of it so we take that and we took picked handpick people from different teams knows mixture of developers and structure security people can you name it and then was a slowly startle master culture added that more technical side of it and we we didn't we didn't 3 months we had read on the whole thing and that's where we proved that value and we moved on from there and that kind of morphed into reason that we did billing and then we see that the team to reason billing component is now the more involved I love the land and across so these are people from different departments rats the miacin different business units and because culture now we put people together and is again like this this is developers developers operations and we cross functioning them an old any from each other so that so you have a the the you in layers dual roles which should you want to bring in a sermon in at the beginning a lot of people resisting to change it when we put these things together and only my job here then yes enables but that's not best that wasn't the case what we try to do is we uh so we created this role this engineering management role that can but that person needs to have development experiments so he can be uh he can emphasize with the guys available more sympathetic to pay not working like they don't make your problem mind is our software and so you can understand exactly what's happening and from the other teams point of view is we get them together we counted get them working with us so now we've got databases we got passes the service we all working together and seeing where we can help each other in different sections so it has taken to come here and look what we mean when we talk about resistance we you know we didn't start with the language you know because we felt that we wanted to add value 1st and then we say we want to do something about the immediate answers generally no you can't do it it's not gonna work going to something else so we said we just kept going we we do this thing that you see column B down put a smile on their face and they said OK how about you try this and we do that and OK the thing the thing seems like it's what you know eventually became a lot closer to us and they started setting we try to get them to sit within the teams you know to be in a product owners or whatever so they can give us directly in a direct direction to you know to the products that they want yeah you had a question for so that I can I haven't you know you always and using so we we didn't have specific metrics to say so what we have as you know we got know we use various various ways to prioritize the work we got the custom in the room and a lot of our customers were internal cost you know and you know you can you can almost think of them as stand-alone businesses and the we we get it we get a piece of work we get whatever we get we we start to you know we need we size we use a Moscow model of and we know how large that piece of work is we sit down with we throw that into a sprint we get the teams to start calculating some a velocity so we start to say well this is what you know the piece of work is a piece of functionality that they want we know over a period of time maybe after we get a constant cadence we know that this is what the vendors is what we measure this is how well we know but this is how big this piece of work and this I know this is how this is how we know that the measure is correct by by giving it to them and say we like and we don't like please if you if you if you and if you are asking about measurement would be talking specifically about the customer measurement of all the value of the work yeah I don't know about the relation going through the eyes and the way that you highlight it the that you have heard about a year so with my customers in a lot of the time we guess what they want and they that's not useful at all in you would have this wasted 6 months of development so we've got product Ernest and also those product and is also have the technical and also background so we can be that inhabit empathy for everybody that's important problem people we don't have this kind of shouting match culture anymore so we look at the customer's you what is your biggest pain points like I
mentioned earlier is a bull's-eye because PenPoint grateful focus on that's great what's next and and we keep going in that cycle and because we very agile become a set things to a quarter so got 4 quarters a year and we cycle we can do this and then great what's next so we we're gonna do this but we kind of want to do this are a great will go and that so that's where the kind of value major come from the 2 big negotiation here we use a down with a lot of people negotiate hobble workers gonna go but we don't necessarily know put have a specific figure 2 2 work it's it's more of an outcome-based value any other questions right at the back the and this is how we want to yeah that like everything like this journey and mean has taken us what year year and a half of conformal close here on them so we want to use habitat like 1 step at a time there's lots and lots of things we wanted to we training on billing engine hours um so currently we look at we looking at Dr. containers and we found that habitat it is quite similar obviously a lot lower down but we'll get there eventually and we've got time and was so we can't just do it if we don't have a need to do a so once a customer sits at they want something like that will definitely do truck genome and again it but we just saw his his his theories and we were more like 1 PM you're going to find the site is wanting in your websites how you to be this way you know it represents the people and action is the just what you would be always on the idea that the right of your that's about he had good the because of OK um yeah so they that's classic grant like online databases slow let me add 24 and the 2 gigs of memory yeah it's like it's fine for a while it crashes so when that happens obviously if it's an immediate outage we go and figure out what's wrong against is we we rally together and and we get it done sometimes not necessary richest people acting but for longer performance issues so we have issues we actually go and do you start doing uh more testing and start digging through the system so that has happened with reasoners wall and like a bit a billing engine is actually a fantastic model so we actually bolted originally and Ruby and got so big we like we chose frontal shapes and it it is it took 4 hours to run a billion engine with 2 million lines of a billing data so we changed it to Java and spark and now we can import data into Mongo DB in 14 minutes of 2 million miles so it if we have to do that investigation and sometimes you have to rewrite it from scratch and so what we end and there was less the length of the meeting that we have a system this can be there so this is my mind was the right kind of hostilities the primary goal of this the the so is so really is in next slide back to most I think it was the the they say saying I'm not specific information for anything perspective someone jumps on box men in changes of it is the kind of just just like the 1 from users of right those in the changes which this is someone directly to the ASR is the following is a list of like yes so the way we structure is then that would happen in data show uh and that's also why we rebuild our systems because sometimes people do think manually in enterprise that we rebuild it every week so very quickly figure out that that things not working and was not waking we automate that thing but for when we move from engineering network which is oscillated of 2 production we actually don't have access to production animal we do it in income tirely through pop so we actually push the enticing run across so we've got Dave and obviously new data you 18 we start removing access at every stage to did you have read access to it and figure out what you dependencies rather your developers being restricted like const stalls things and then was you T where she removes so we can say to the gasses OK put an audio CD rules and all the things that you require so that you the so that you can actually eats make sure that you got everything you need you don't actually need route to function on the so then we actually push it to production we generally uh we don't really have access obviously level 1 support we do but we sort restricting that access very heavily yeah so it is quite a different approach it is like this for your you know about the and some of the story is next In fact yes so we do we do have access but we we can't get it willy-nilly so to get root access to our system and is a different structure so we can get in through our reason use of for example bilinear so I will we actually have to request a from a system called Barbrook and then we requested me said OK that's a valid request this to stop people logging on top production servant being stupid things and we we the work that you're on the right the who know was it and you do it for you and so you can think of yeah so we had we had an issue just like there was reason so we deployed whoops yes and that happens run so we actually now using kind of green blue deployments where we deployed to 1 half the environment because reasons pretty stateless and then we lacked a it's it's it's cool we've done so we don't just say deployed and say or it's fun to go home where should jump on in and make sure we run for the processes like a constant make sure everything's working and once we happy then we deployed a there's a lot of things that you can do like at some we only have to learn some people at 3 4 layers like that like Netflix thank you and I know this and the history of and so 1 of the when you talk about uh the push to cultures and the people culture the and around you as someone who has the right to it is necessary that it be the of it the where the you know the so so it has some so the business environment is is quite competitive so we we as a bank you know had a banking license for a very long time so now we've realize that retail companies also giving a banking license the post office is giving a banking license medical industry people like discovery health and they they are getting a banking license the becoming competitive and we we realized that there's certain things that they can do that we need a traditionally they can do before so we we thought about it and people said on said hey you know what if we did not change certain things will happen to us we don't want to be that company that got eaten by you know the regional company or uh health completely I and also I think it was also largely because people were people were feeling the pain in know of certain systems and they wanted a way to to to alleviate that pain by doing different things so when you talk about a group of people and we had a very progressive a CIO of group is very progressive CTO said hey guys we need to change the way we work we need to look at different ways you know sometimes you you get guys who sit on the airplane and open up a flight magazine and they see agile and see something in the structure of the that's what that's the way we're going to work and you know sometimes that's the case but it we we took that and said this you know this refine it as we go along so that there was initial thinking right we we try to
be competitive in in in a very unstable economic and environment and and the only way we felt that could work was through changing the way that how we treat our people are changing the way we the we engage with people change in the way we do a lot of things right that's that's weird or region experts this would come from that's the root of goal remember like I said you have thing is that going to be able to adapt quickly and you think the banking systems it's quite big so you gotta to be able to make assistance monster enough so you can change and it took us a long time to get to figure that out and it's that's just what we speaking about is a very small portion of the back the rest the base is very very traditional very very rigid and would you know we we we sort of cleaning our own house 1st of the I. T. guys with the idea of the 4 thousand people we tried to change that we can go back into you can go back into insurances pages are that's doing things that can go back into a charge a a job how about this group we we would not necessarily going to prescribe we in a separate them as what challenges what it because pain points how can we help you we can we can we can we find synergies and do something called but we 1st need to sort of our house optimum due to excessive use of the and getting the signal so Heather side and get few