Export Controls for Dual-Use Software

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Neuartige Formen der Überwachung digitaler Geräte bedrohen die Informationsfreiheit im Internet. Häufig sind deutsche Firmen beteiligt, wenn autoritäre Regime Journalisten, Dissidenten und Aktivisten ausspionieren. Dieses Panel soll sich ebenso mit dem Status quo auseinandersetzen wie mit Möglichkeiten, den Zugang zu Überwachungstechnologien besser zu kontrollieren Das Internet hat (Bürger-) Journalisten, Aktivisten und Blogger weltweit vernetzt und ist ein wichtiger Träger der Informationsfreiheit. Andererseits haben autoritäre Regime das Internet für sich entdeckt und nutzen digitale Technologien, um kritische Stimmen zu überwachen. Das Know-how dafür kommt oft von Unternehmen aus Europa und den USA -- und auch aus Deutschland. Deren IT-basierte Überwachungstechnologien können teils Festplatten von Computern durchsuchen, verschlüsselte E-Mails mitlesen sowie Kamera und Mikrofon eines Computers oder Handys aus der Ferne aktivieren. Wir fragen uns deshalb: Was ist der Stand der Technik?
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and 1st of all I have a nice little from fact for all of you I'm sure you never ever heard of that the internet was originally invented for military reasons why you might have read about it in the
newspaper for example but the seriously as any other technology that digital technologies are in Beverly ambivalent they can be used as weapons and our all especially in Germany is ambivalent a put it more frankly hypocritical about that because how well partially is based on selling technologies that can be used as weapons and this is right for software also so please welcome the following speakers to discuss today here on stage the assesses the necessity of export controls for dual use software the change that quickly error King head of research of Privacy International the Committee Commission of the Government of the German government meant for human rights policy in
maturing H. Marcus learning concern a was executive director of the Reporters Without Borders and Germany unveils book the spokesman of the Chaos Computer Club and as host Jayewardene the bus still thank you very much but so you it is such a nice introduction and to do so the panelists that I I'm going to have a very
easy job today and I'll keep it very short to begin with and how managers like to start by telling a little story just to show how relevant we're talking about today is in the everyday life so on in a few weeks ago we organized an event here but then in cooperation hands but foundational also with reporters without and invited different activists come join from across the world is really a very colorful wild mix of people and some of these people working on and digital rights activism but many of the others working all different kinds of errors of activism gender democracy on meteorites campaign is on gay-rights issues so another different arms deals they and 1 of them was a ratings issued from the men who goes to a small village isn't as different kind of what community workshops there and in the 1st day he introduced himself on a panel is a shiny had this little government endorsed paper saying I did government endorsed activism and all this is an approved by by the energy governments and I felt very safe with what he was doing and J. the cause of the event of the tax tech-savvy people we had banking people from the case communication club and people from the if that convinced tenants checking his hard disk and found that for the past while not possible to say for how long an indefinite amount of time he had been spied on because I'm down basically it's the base of what was found on his hard disk it's now in the lab examined so we can hopefully find out where this came from and what it was that this is a very complicated process and it was a shock to the fact when he found is that we have felt very safe and the work that he was doing only to discover that it was exactly the opposite and and he was being forced to be very transparent with all the activist work was doing little more light shed into the subject that the transparency the keyword so I thought I begin by telling you this because also I'm here Republic of for the wants a fast and finding read that working internet connection lies connections of people working around here and I've seen people using devices that pass the potentially can never be too careful about these things and we here today with our and for X and panelists discuss the
topic why that is the case so I'd like to begin my asking a few questions on the panel but you all here not only to listen but also to engage sigh will open the questions to the floor at very soon and would like to ask you all to join in time discussions Christian I'd like to give the 1st question to you and ask you to explain a few months ago now audience Reporters Without Borders launched a campaign to start convincing the German government do we need extra control for dual use software can you tell us what has happened since then their own experiences that you made and maybe can also by saying why and media organization that reporters without
Borders is the 1 organization Germany persons topic well we as a media organization of systems 20 of more than 20 years fighting for press freedom we more more them in our systems work where we help in practive their practical manner journalists and bloggers we made the appearance of more more stories came to our is that journalists and bloggers before a long time have a very broad understanding of John in the sense that we campaigned for a for freedom for bloggers as well more more stories came to our usage bloggers and journalists where affected by the survey surveillance software and we know stories about people being tortured and due to the fact that they have been to wait before and that's why we as of press freedom organization decided to campaign and to advocate for better control not only in Germany but in the European level as well and we started its last summer and with various meet recent launched in August this I'm right in August the published 1st a position paper where we formulate basically to 2 key issues in which we are campaigning for the 1st 1 is that we are campaigning in advocating for for an export control regime I could go into further detail in the discussion and if you want and for the for not giving any more export people could guarantees because from our perspective a tree is scanned all state not only German government but only even as a European governments are securing the export of such Sylvain software and was export gas and recent the publication of cities and so this position paper in August we did various that would would do various things together with some partners so that highest problem with Privacy International was CHI at the European Center for Constitutional Human rights the filed and received the complaint against 2 software companies exporting such software then and at the Internet Governance Forum we've presented some very concrete proposals on how to regulate them such things and just recently for lack of a very happy and even the German parliament for the 1st time I talked about this topic and for like not not anymore only the moralist unimportant to politicians spot so uh politician to dealing with foreign policy and um stinks like that and it we're going on with this and to them with various partners organization but that the current state of art to receive the complaint is right now and state decision someday but we still don't know how to hopefully it will be a it will be allowed to to talk with the companies but I think we can discuss about UCT complained that bid was into this world was and the discussion yes and I would also be interested to know like how you
perceive the growth of awareness toward this topic in the German government and so would definitely take a little bit
deeper into the issues he's just raised and he said you pot with different organizations and 1 of those that his last ever public it's normal that the
people running it and the place itself is falling apart and that of their where hanging in there so on 1 of those Privacy International way work Eric running their big brother and Inc. Project he tells that what that
is and maybe also like how big is this market that we're looking at really talking about here shows sort reported deprives international called big of Inc. from the last 2 years we've been investigating the trade and surveillance technologies from the world but it is something when we began the project we had very little idea would find we didn't know what kind of market existed would look like through the companies whose who purchasing it and what we're really trying to understand was some if all right your human rights defender in and you want to you come send a message on to somebody who in danger can you do that should do that why you going to reveal information is that message into intercepted what capabilities the Yemen government have how often do they use it can be used effectively and then if there's an option should you can send a text message should you make Frankel to do send an e-mail so we began the project trying to trying to answer some of those questions and I'm ashamed to say who further in Argentina's questions but we do have a little bit of a better understanding the last 2 years we've uncovered an entire marketplace in association with a whole range of NGOs and journalists and who taken on this issue in this in this this fantastic kind of sigh guys where where everyone's realized on just what this market looks like and and what we found and I 355 western surveillance companies and that number is growing and these are largely based in in America and Europe the particular focus in in the UK and Germany and these are not technology companies as we understand that technology companies selling surveillance technology as as consultancy service then not packaging up a box and ship it off to an unknown destination where they don't understand how it's getting used or what its whole purpose is being put to you this is a very very close relationship between the companies and governments that the purchasing this technology 2 of the biggest companies that we've been focusing on reports about was never saw a Gamma International a British German based company in tropical was sort of at a German company and in these circumstances they spend years before they finally deployed some technology and mapping out where in the network certain infection proximity to be placed on Web monitoring sensors need to be installed and they provide technical support this is a really kind of critical issue that needs to be understood this this isn't neutral technology being being shipped off in a way that nobody understands how it's being used they provide 24 hours round-the-clock technical support so when there's a protester they can pick up the phone and say pay something's gone down we need some and added capabilities what what New York upward in some circumstances you actually pay licenses for the number of people you can spy on at any 1 time so you can buy bumper packages and is licensed in the same way as destroyed management use this technology so from the export controls are really really important thing that needs to be done to begin to get this technology and the control now when we talk about export controls 1 of the kind of biggest criticisms that I was always guess is that it won't fix the whole problem right if people still going companies in Ukraine will stop providing service companies in China might for me that's fine Expo control the need to fix a 100 % of the problem if they can fix 80 % of it's still worth doing I think that's the that's the point I really want of want to come go away with today whatever view on export controls whether what you think is going to be a hundred protect presented effective where is gonna stop every single technology company sentiments 2nd no it's not that is going to do something is again a major is gonna make improving music we gonna get further down the line and I think undoubtedly the answer is yes thank you very it around call factions height that there already and hopefully will have some more some throughout this discussion before I read the other 2 panelists I wanna get back just past OK so exponential until it's defined that really pin that down when you say that what you mean by that what is the solution that you actually looking for that you have with as an outcome all 1 solution we're very in a very concrete manner are advocating for a 2 . 2 . 4 in so called an X in the class and agreements it's survive multilateral agreement between several States worldwide and regulating the export of conventional weapons and we are advocating for year and the European level for 1 annex regulating explaining which kind of technology should be handled as weapons and that's why we have a very consciously use the term digital whether that's the 1st thing the 2nd thing is that and that such a regulation as within the bus and I agreement could be done already on the national level and the ways of the national export regulation reading so those are 2 very concrete proposals and the search point actually is no more expert guarantees for such technology and transparency in this we are trying to get transparency in export controls and receive because so far it's in the public that there have been a shoe export guarantees for such technology but we at reporters of borders on doing research and investigation which countries that way given export guarantees in Germany but in other countries as well you bring with all of them his eligibility for as well all but I think that we need to necessarily think of them as weapons for them to still be digitally controlled I think again something that often gets some confused when we're talking about export controls as the would only trying to stop the stuff that is 100 % even in bat and actually the whole point of export controls is that you are able to control legitimate technologies things like lawful interception management systems such systems that we use in Germany or in the UK in it's entirely appropriate for next control regime to control those technologies as well and export control regime basically says is these technologies that we recognize can be put onto a purpose that human rights as 1 of us 1 of the considerations why you think he's an expert control on a product and very clearly what we call lawful interception technologies and there's a there's a whole debate around what that's appropriate term or not but putting that aside for the moment you can actually see that even selling what we call lawful inception technologies in a wrong with this very little rule of law is a bit of an it doesn't quite make sense and it's very plain this is technology that could be used to target activists to talk journalists and to talk pro-democracy supporters and so I think that's that's an old 1 important thing to realize is well is that it's become be stuff that we might have always think of is good but in the wrong hands could be used for a for malicious purposes it again and events
does make quite easy maybe you can consume like down that way and that number 1 of told it's like the Ghostbusters do not cross the minds is very important and how to
question I know that your 1 that faith and 1 of the few good man who this forces in in what's happening here can you perhaps statue things why you this consumer government spokesperson of the German government y from your very has perspective is this a human rights issue that we're talking about here and how do you see the level of awareness increasing in the German government it was not due 1 that is against exporting technology to can be used for for human rights mean for human rights offenses thing that's something that everybody in the German government tries to do yeah but the question is even more ambivalent than you put it i mean answering the question whether we should export certain kinds of technology to Iran that's very easy the signal a clear band to export can to not just to Iraq but what do you do with countries where there is use but what is also cooperation on issues like fighting drug crime organized crime human trafficking of those things yeah there it starts to get a lot more difficult to assess is this technology which is used and needed to fight organized crime on on 1 side but is the same technology also used to fight human rights defenders and AUC whether dilemma lies in what how difficult it is to make an assessment that never does any harm this this is why it's not so easy to just it was very clear this technology is always harmful and it will always be abuse unfortunately is not not not like now what I do I see is that there is a clear need for an export control for these technologies that can be used if the possibility of abuses there should be an expert control and I think that the way that was shown out of the bus and I women would be 1 way where a 40 40 countries have agreed to have a common list work technologies are listed countries and this was that if you if someone posture exports the technology to a certain country there must be an export license and was the decision on the export license and these 40 countries share the information about the license for that so the lessons was given or whether it was not given and who asked for the last so that that there's some cohesion and some coherence between these countries thus the I believe we need to do that we do job between the Foreign Ministry and the Ministry of Economics at the moment how we can actually do that and there is a proposal by the French and the UK government to twist it was not agreement which we think is a good proposal which we do support so there is an ongoing we would not at the end of the debate because we have maybe we also we haven't understood the complete depth and complexity of the problem is that there is an ongoing debate in the political goal is very clear that we have export controls on technologies that can harm human rights this is making it can very positive so an intensive and of course there's only so much the fine history for you as an individual can actually do on that already being in discussion with the ministry of Economics and however at a I would I would argue that unanalyzed speaking to State Secretary from a different Ministry of were not mainly by now who's not maybe directly that 1 ministry to make decisions but definitely would be involved in this and it would have a context they didn't know this existed and and I would also argue that the ministry of Economics has such economic economic interests in and keeping the status quo that there's has not been paid much room to maneuver how hard to just like maybe in a percentage think hard to see this times the success of actually implementing something like this for the current government the the 1st of the more about debates like this 1 take place the better the chances are that we get export-control faster I think there will be export control the question is how fast and how type will be and the more the issues raised in public the faster and the tightening control so that's 1 of the reasons I'm here because I think it's important that we do that and that we move faster than than we do at the moment there is an awareness in the ministry of Economics Ministry of Economics is always there was a export-control hang on to win favor of free trade let's really look is is really necessary I mean that's part of the job I mean it's not their job to make life more difficult for for companies it's a job to make exports easier but is also the job to make sure that not the wrong things don't the Germany and I don't think there's a lot of this big economic interest in this specific technology we're talking about several hundreds of employment and you may be found maximal probably the probably this so I don't think this is a question of money of of influence of of big economic interest I think this is more a
question of can be really defined what we're talking about and to be honest I don't understand because I don't understand the technology behind it so let me that the topic you thank you very much like he had passed the might now to on last but not least and let him on the panel you're have k with the C and we talked a little bit now about the and governance of the use can you help us understand what the issues here and and if shed light on technological Matt is offered to the other and this is the thing that and there's several issues and you to look at the first one whose life is called to use them so most methods are actually not only was there they used to shoot people that's not to use technology that's about them and problem was that this and that a lot of stuff that can be used for human rights violations is of the same kind of technology that's used by system administrators every day to maintain the computers and 1 example of this is something called Wireshark which is used to analyze network traffic that almost everybody mitosis is especially used its normative so they have to look at the action that book because that go across the lawyer and of course you use that to see what's going wrong due to the to the other hand you could also say please give me all the possible that run across the street and that's pretty clear cut from you that's a tool um which I don't have much problems even if it's exported and there other kids that are not as you cut in the next example I would like to come up with this this topic exploit because they're actually involves the breaking into computers to collection of the so called exploits and that use facts and so to work get to a computer and to put your own salt on the computer for the purpose of spying changing data subsets of the soul if you see as the total somewhat computer that's very would use Metasploit that's also a free tool and that's mainly used for finding or whether your own network secure not so that's the main purpose of them yet to defend against cyber criminals we have to defend against spine of the fuel so again that's a tool that's goals model direction of actually being able to be used on the other hand and then there is technology very explicitly that you mention that the products that come the service is achieved by piece of software is technology you buying the service and the very purpose if you look at the descriptions of the products that usually the using a little bit of modern language but it ends up being uh you're able to monitor and the collocation of the use of you to check e-mail or everything and look for keywords to big data streams so that's something that it's that it's pretty close to what you do we use anymore because it doesn't even have a ticket the purpose of you got something but the test the the only purpose of spying on people and if you have will use it's like a regular police work like looking into sum of products of that would be a legitimate use of itself yeah another issue that as serious and that it's not that easy to work and transferred the existing export control regime to new technologies like people text link a tank is easy you knew you check to read to be very good at working with metal and things are large chunks of metal that aren't that easy to exports of people keep trying I remember a case where the and humble and they formed ChangeTalk yet as agricultural machines so what's did in the end up the and it's very at it's much easier to which the control the goods and just full details goods so that also leads me to the question of what constitutes an export I have website books some hold on that side task that quantitative export what are the regulations fight responsible as shown on the left side of Figure all the normal order comes from 1 of the you know the terrorist countries or not a big problem and in the 3rd issue I see you and this that reminds me of the export controls the scene of the nineties in the United States on the so called Group all spectrum so all cryptographic software like Egypt you could use to them and Sonya messages and was export restricted export control in the US and that's because of software that up to 2 days used by lots of human right activists everywhere ruled that export control will circumvent but printing all the source code as a book exporting book because that was the and on the free speech and that the constitution and people type of make to the computer so that's issues of a free and hold it prevents uh big keeping the total technology although the heads of people which we needed altitude here keeping this faces my because an
asking posts react to that in a minute that on having raised those critical points and
thank you for having done that what you see and essentially all recognize problem that's inherent in this discussion see is a viable solution along the route that you would have the preferable to take a lot of model that for the preparation of the talk and so my rough idea of the you at the moment this somebody makes money you have a paper trail that's impossible but few effectually says something some very few them rotten was another country that's something that you can control interface did did get that was what you want an that is so that it will will it would be useful so there is some question as that
I think I can help answer the maybe we can kind of see where we we get to after I have an a and there's a question but it is said that just the word I think it is the end of i you wouldn't want to get into trouble for putting also called on local that's
what that explains with regard to computers because that's needed education to get or better to get the group that took place but somebody actually cells of the surveillance of the Soviet state I want to to that that to be illegal so I think for all of the money was that you would get in the right solution you right so we're not criminalizing the technology that the weight of each user can define thank you again the effect as it has grabbed my hand hygiene here accidently plays entrance phrase and so we've come a long way from the nineties and primes international for the 1st 15 years of its existence fighting against the crypt awards are saying to cryptography is defensive technology to protect people to secure communication is is a critical thing and that export control should not be in place on this technology something in complete agreement on but export controls and have developed they've changed and and how they are applied in and they got better the sum of perfect for goal of better so many the questions that work of real concern hadronic crypt awards have begun to be answered so for example and if you run a website and you make something freely available can't intractable controls is something in the public domain was available over the counter it cannot be controlled by 2 controls it means that it it is not a category of of software that school or technology that could ever be controlled and that is it a key criteria to see whether any technology can ever be placed on that list and so on in complete agreement if there's if there's something that's freely available and can be purchased over the counter we even available over-the-counter shouldn't be controlled it is pointless I you make a mockery of all 4 of them were trying to do and I think that some of those definitions can be expanded upon as well to put kind of stronger protections for out free software developers in open source developers as well to to make sure that the that that protected and the 2nd point we you talked about about some tanks a thinking about this yesterday and I'm always come to a point where I think that's tanks controlling damascened Fisher model using the easier to control an attack so when you exports tank it's a thing that you need but some petrol and and you can drive around but then you want to do that and can sit in the time drive around to a new country and if you don't have and have a camera kind of captured at that point you you you you call of content about anyone can use it and in 10 years time that installed a fire a missile if it's if it's kind of got assignment was Fisher it's the actual Trojan itself is a tiny component of what makes a defective wall finfish radius is is an entire infection system that covers an entire country every single installation is cost you be almost impossible or at least were not worth the while to you ever grab installation finfish in a certain country and transpose that to a different country you just be an absurd waste of fundamental to start from scratch all what you're doing because a year even a year on the technology is going to be completely out of date so in that way some of these technologies are actually easier to control than some of the things that we traditionally think of as as export controllable which I think is is is an interesting way of of rethinking of some of that and and finally to talk about some some of the some of the categories of surveillance technology that we get kind of Mr. get caught in the middle satellite phone interception technologies physical custom hardware and in the captures GSM interception devices these all kind of a whole range of products they sit the middle loop relative come up as part of conversations but at a definite a products that I wanted to focus on but I think can be controlled the should be controlled and I know a lot more clear cut than and then kind of any of the open source tools that we we we sometimes come and talk about crystals on him under a grateful that you mention the cryptography issue because I think that's a very important point just to mention how politics is supported help policy regulation is important because it decision to to regulate cryptography 20 years ago when when it was in the discussion and for integrating cryptography even in the past and I remember was a political decision Indiana because cryptography use some technology which has to do with use characters well can be used for military reasons it can be used for for circumvention and that's where policy can in policy regulation because in the end it's decision a political decision on how to evaluate and how to assess such technology and that's what think that the comparison with scriptory somehow this in a very good symbol abnormality how how such a regulation could be and just to give you 1 uh another uh the current issues that there is a good example of how such a regulation could somehow work graph I don't want you to to become confused regulation was sanctions but we have a moralist tightening sanctions to read to you uh the with within the European Union and in Germany which includes such technology it's a sanctions regime against Syria and Iran and from our perspective the report of a policy least I think that's a very good example how such a regulation could work even if it's very focused and b and reactor around so again focusing
on a single countries the recipients these technologies that are known as the system decides how I would like to start a meaningful
to your questions we have a tiny bit minutes now so you can give me a sign and if you have 1 more stuff appearing
in order to eradicate in an opera by Christians back citation was that the judgment that that out this is something that help with like only however something the but I haven't such as talking all we will be having such using matrix going to war that wanted to so I I wasn't a lot of the German army and what kind interesting is all along about weapons it's uncontrolled all about 11 about history you cannot control things yeah yeah you know you have the and route going into Gaza camera control the so I'd rather save the export more but to ability so this is where I see that the German government is doing really bad job than other people to getting in the such people . coming from Jamaica Jordan Tuvalu and we're talking about controlling arms of software to use goes and yes they are used by foreign governments but what we could really do is help civilian society and I tell you that as a former soldier and this is going to be the real threat and it means that you will to put the practice can you have in mind the genome and found the key question this I think and because I want the up on that 1 so in my experience
and this is the case and generates even more so the case in a lot of other places around the world there is very very to little knowledge about digital security and how to actually protects your individual devices on and so the idea of protecting themselves against whereas revenue is something that doesn't come out to most people even if they using digital technologies were pretty and then that other context like the ones so the ones we started speaking in this morning take time they energy dissidents all it was somebody from Ethiopia for instance you have very limited possibilities to actually protect yourself digitally without making yourself even more suspicious to the government they trying to hide things from so maybe that's something and yes I'd like to also ask you I usually find the idea that solving bottom-up not top-down but how would you react the common agenda and made what will the problem was found we use the average civilian won't be able to buy all solutions to talking about they completely able to some Donald something that the work that you see that so in the that end it ends up being taking effect government which surprisingly enough of converts because nobody really knows what defend against 2 text and yeah I don't think that's 1 a and export restrictions on right foot harm the year the dissidents civilian uprising because and they're the ones the using the open source and open tools to do their work
yes it is the maybe I would like to say something of about would you just the 1st I think this is a very interesting idea that export more the 2nd lectures
to just say that of course government German government all European governments American government giving a lot of support to civil society activists all different kinds of support money training these are visits this that but what we need is is will not just the think tanks of our societies will not the creative class societies creative arts civil-society activists people that know about these dangers people that i the journalists or technology people that know how to do these things and if if an NGO comes answers this with training activities that work in the Middle East and we're showing them how to use the technology in a safe way could you find us that's what the government can do that the ideas have to come from you guys from NGO guys from people that are really on the right know what the problem today is that the government is not never really good at that time a Christian on just reacting to remarks
and of course you can't solve all the problems with any regulation as the export of conventional weapons in both but it's just to an attempt just 1 remark and of course I and I'm not needs and I do believe that this will be the final solution to all the problems that we are fighting for press freedom in human rights all around the world since this looks at years end yet every day and violations of press freedom that to you I just want to give you 1 of them I want to commend it from public you and reporters log borders no assistance work I don't share units you did lots of active this journalist we are helping to our assistance with bloggers and that they are aware of open source technologies circumvention technologies lots of people unfortunately aren't aware of such technology very good lots of people came in situations of danger because there's such a lack of awareness identity experience and that from all working group motives of borders it from our systems work in and and
strong stimulus your argument that you say that it's much more easy to regulate that tank then the finches report on the concentration of all data dated until next year or something like that but if you look for example at the told about something that you want to try to regulate to capturing the interception for GSM and that of expected but the knowledge for this kind of technology is obvious you don't need this is all the light I I'm I can ring I know how to do this stuff and I don't need to buy a device is adjustable to information and you can't stop just kind of information so I think the geometrical so but I can move the thing and I know how to build that think they can because I don't have the stuff for this more mistakes and that is still ranks them so what's what's
so interesting about the the change and in how would we kind of want to regulate kind things that doing harm societies is that you're exactly right there has been a shift in international when 0 anyone can build and develop these tools right I mean you can we uniquely buildings catch of 200 pounds in less than that mean and have been your intention wanna be with you want Pfeiffer and problem 1 whatever what's great tho so is that governments don't wanna do that they're not doing that and the reason that this industry exists the reason why these guys have been able to make money is not because they're building stuff that is unique or that we don't understand is because they're providing is a consultancy service that providing the full package governments who approaches in these technologies don't know how to build it they don't have the technical capabilities and they don't want develop and so what they're doing instead is is purchasing a complete solutions from the from these companies and that can be controlled already it's the case that you know you can you can install overcome BB on on OpenStack and can stop playing around and start captions Menzies if you want to but they have no interest in that they wanna keep this simple they wanna keep it easy and a happy to pay a huge amount of money and that's where these companies come in they provide complete solutions they salads they provide the training data rate the maintenance and what the upkeep and that can be controlled and so that's right in a different further questions
there is a question um concerning dual-use acknowledges wouldn't you be more interested in concerning dual-use loss like 1 of the biggest problems I see is greater as technologies you can export or regulate but we have no more more record here in the worst of the most you implement uh everyone was going on in Germany you have in your head proposal going on in and receiving the various other sample and how can we say these countries you cannot use the technology to use of those services as well as you know we don't have really moral rights and the devised is kind of loss and we that asset classes I think that has a lot of medical issues that we should be eating my example lodgings exact opposite side happening while not in my example and don't need
to start something inside Germany before we go into and waste wells when this ion has actually a good example of that so far but the difference between our States walking democracy and rule of law states and an authoritarian state in any authoritarian state thing would have been used in Germany of the has stopped it and I think that is the difference between the 2 countries like France the Netherlands and Germany the U K that we do have a Parliament that makes the loss and that as we do have a Parliament it controls government we do have a tradition that is the and and that is controlled I mean we're not perfect as I'm not trying to paint a picture morals and and is the basis of these things to work in our country if something that goes beyond the limits happens usually um are mechanisms will stop them so so this is the difference between a country where you have control over parliament and judiciary and of the countries of the SEE tool can be legitimate in 1 country but not legitimate in the trees but I think the argument was also that on the diversity of leading by example OK there might be a difference of the legal and social framework that we have here However other countries and other Governments will perceive what generally is doing and would take that as an excuse to push things and boundaries that in that country and so especially here well against shady areas by civil rights are undermined and I guess that on the buddhist plan on switch very good examples of that we definitely helped ease the ground for other more authority the genes to be abuse these technologies and maybe the video for this little bit more about the most companies
use other countries are looking at our roles as examples to implement for their own what you don't don't misunderstand me and very much protecting civil rights and you know I think it is an ongoing constant political fight which we have to all these issues that we have debated over the years and we have to be very region as a society statistic stop this is not what we want if society is clear about that you will see the let's say the police people and these kind of people talking about security taking over we have to politically and as civil society we have to constantly say this is enough this is of order don't go further and this is the red line don't process so we have to constantly do that nevertheless there will always will you will always find the object data from around the corner that will take anything you do as an excuse I mean the arguments you but
I I hear a lot of things are they will take any excuse it if you don't pass that law they will say would actually law also of you you have we have to confront these people were saying this is the rule of law and democracy and very few freedom of speech of very things introduced them and then we'll talk to you on an on pitch basis things as another question by the way is not that it not taking class of doubly scattered evidence
find it's not really that he presses for the fact that efforts come up to the kind and help walking around the mind so please you may question of about sort of the questions about the huge network companies like the which assume not or to school you will think countrywide networks with pectoris world governments could be more easily be regulated to knock it seems that what it is really interesting example of this is 2
bits and what not seems that works historically cells they sold the telecommunications equipment the backbone communications infrastructure in the country but and they also sold an intelligent solution on top of it that we have across Europe and standards technical standards that force will telecommunications company to build a lawful interception capabilities by default until what technology into a lot of indications products and that's a real problem when the standards are often not our preserving of privacy that setting a terrible example and yeah that very very hard to understand which means fighting against them and becomes a real issue as well but it was interesting is that the the capability the telecommunications network itself I think an entirely legitimate thing to be exporting we want to encourage communication these countries and so for me whenever he seems that over the line was not exporting telecommunications equipment with effective via a socket that you could plug a interception solution into is the fact that they sold the interception solution on top of it they did everything for the government and that's where I I see the difference is between kind of telecommunications convinced me that's where you draw that line so absolutely not ideally naughty seems that which would not be able to sell a lawful interception capable products in the 1st instance but that's that's what we've got in Europe that's that's that's what we've created and the but these companies can be regulated them in a much more effective way we know who they are they have publicly operations team and many of them have others revenue streams and to me was very upsetting when not using these networks sold off the intelligent solutions systems and they accept the criticism they said that yes we have done a terrible thing by selling intelligent solution systems to run a rather than shutting that product line down rather than taking responsibility for what they've created they created a hardened little brother of a company with no other revenue streams no reason to act ethically I and the same people and continued to make and develop and sell those products might think that was the wrong decision by noticing these networks further questions
to about 2 more but thank you on suppressing 1st I would confuse but some of your state so actually working with us by myself and to me that here the differences in the clear so make the plots and similar tools are open source tools completed available to the public completely transparent people can understand that can challenge them and that the clearing positive while the future for instance this design and produce secrecy exactly do you not prevent that to be to be understood and deliberately not blocked and divided but I think that message from America and you didn't go through completely goes 1st thing that from regulating technology itself it's completely pointless out but the reason is because while you will find often feature venues in but I am not knowing if your your whatever and you will see the differences which is completely blocked for for international exports have been using as much successfully no free to download spyware is like poison ivy or whatever so the regulating the actual technology and the amount technical aspects of it it's completely useless it's not a part of the point that I should I think should be made is 1st of all the people using those things in our in our legitimate way should be you not liable for that and they should be on receiving an international what depression when actually that countries in the European Union should condemn those things by publicly and transparently and delta and called model the situations and their use in the positive aspect of regulating controls is not good the technology itself is regulated expectation of services and the reason for that is that you need to come control and prevent that Western companies and European companies are weaknesses of participants and you know so involved into the use of those technologies in those countries where it's actually critical conditions and that's where the action might be effective otherwise it would be kind of like congested sites what did I really
confused as to where the contrast because that support exactly what I said that OK so in that case anybody
else at least evidence I think I think there's a general agreements that I'm not I'm not
on this essential let them if is any disagreements have reactions from that way the cloudiest incredible work and investigating over the last year and a half and on I think what he's highlighting is is that's some where we are able to effectively control this technologies because of its service and by using the only the server should be regulated not the technology and so I think that's a valid point that I understand but I think that you can control the can effectively control the technology because they're providing a service search maybe I'm on doing lawyer could look at low speed but broader I think it's a it's it's a 1st that the that's 1 point that we have to have
a consensus on because in that little tend to define what we aren't talking about that time instant on as well let's take making 1 more yes tens of him of the memories of of what a continuum of Justice of the European institutions and so my question what you expect them to you at European level black and i the interview with money just talking to the adoption of the um and every we made a small that she said OK if you ask 100 and is about you have things about this technology number lunches I asked for 5 no 1 knew what I was talking about that my present you you what's going to happen the European thank you political awareness raising OK can you just repeat the part the question I understood that the question was how do last ascertain that that will also and so far you have been talking about the moon to the German parliament and to understand more what's ritual for the EU the European Commission thank you well 1st of all my i didn't the crystal quite understand everything is the
1st of all I know that in especially in the European Parliament in quite a few colleagues of very much into all questions of civil liberties people like managers content of this is really look into these issues very very strong and we are strong advocates of dealing with these issues as 1 point the 2nd point is a legally most of these issues have to be dealt with by European governments not by Parliament unfortunately especially human rights issues of parliament is a lot more progressive than than the than the than the governments of the member countries so I but that's enough for example something that the government to do and also if you have a european expletive you free list someone on the European expert bad this this is a decision that's been taken by governments by into the into the government to part of the European Union just 1 I wouldn't general statement
on the European level the awareness is stronger than on the German level just to give you an example last December the European Parliament adopted a strategy of digital freedom which is some points you can definitely criticized very heavily but it was adopted in the
last December by the European Parliament and now it's the committee you Commissioner sister to somehow you with this decision by the European Parliament and for a longer time of the European Parliament is dealing its them with such that in the German parliament suggest to you make this the ice as strong strong difference between the you in Germany were missing in Germany German parliament just recently started as in German Ministry is well so are there any married on a very urgent unanswered questions thank you but you have 1 answer
questions something not raised in a given have 1 final point and it would close around here so I was wondering what what do you think is the incentive maybe for the states of the European Union not to regulate and I was thinking maybe I mean and in an age where late the word for it so important is that it's not the economical advantage in Germany of these and is it possible that instead they want to follows the or not disturb maybe and in them the paper that the development of of the nation of some industry security industry is what is it about also says that business case not to think yeah the national security cases defense case this is not technology may be also useful for internal reasons but I can try to answer bits of Latin the others will have other views on this
kind of thing is a mixture of reason why it's not regulate it part of the reason is that governments and ministries don't really understand the problem it's it's very as we found out that it's very hard to to read by what is it actually need to control is at the so is the technology itself if you haven't technology how would you describe it had how do you try to control it or is it that you have to have extra bands forces can X interested countries the regimes of that as you have to really understand the problem before you create a lot of them so that's part of the explanation I would say that in the 2nd part is I think it is not enough when CIA at national levels in different countries basically in Germany and in the UK I think it needs to be more of a more of a public debate and more aggressive the day that's why it is so so important that I can support so much that the case that's the boards without borders have brought forward it's very important to make it an issue to raise awareness in parliament and government what is this about about we have to do some this German knowledge is being used for abuse of human rights are being used to suppress it so that's part of the reason the 3rd reason is that some of this technology is used also for legitimate goes it's difficult to make use of the division between legitimate and then on the legitimate use it's hard to really describe it to the point so with that that's not small closing around on panel here and I been to as our idea here is to know because as
we saw in the discussion there's still a lot of and knowledge sharing be done when a to defining these technologies and to make sure that this is the topic of causal to passionate about 170 happen but it is case of the wrong direction so from your
perspective from the cascade of is there any is then it can elaboration helping to define what we're talking about and find different technologies that we're talking about with in this pushed the lexical control was the position and yet the monitoring of the c the human so that the quantum wells companies manufacturing that equipment areas of use of the true that the Germans visually look at the international situation and you're talking to people like you like reportable portals to come up with a precise definition that the Lord to control the members in a manner that doesn't mean there's thanking Christian can you guess what they bring insight into why the next task have so the contain going how's it going and what to be watching out for well our next paintings that we're waiting for an answer regarding always complaint to which we filed in federal grants from requirement gamma uh and right now I can't say anything about the whole thing because it's the process so we hope for a political and in this sense it's a whole process so that we could make could restart but uh as it's no secret that there is a German government different positions on the topics just formally dismissed the complaint and has to be allowed by the Ministry of Economics there is so close to the national contact point and we know from other cases that's elicit the complaint mechanism in Germany is not working really well below comparing to the case for example where it's much more transparent participation of civil society is much better possible than in Germany and our next step from campaigning perspectives the next now in conference which place in December in Vienna and that's where we are looking to thank you for people looking at what's happening in Germany now and what you're doing in the organization have only use this kind of small meant that they going up to push things in other European countries and on the European of I think critically now we do have the understanding that we need to be able to introduce export controls and surveillance technologies lines that need to be at work that we forget to Privacy International bottled forward slash Best by by stands for surveillance industry index we catalog the 355 surveillance companies and was selling products that we think should be controlled or policy papers that we've published all export control list on technical definition of the things we would like to be controlled and I think that we now in a position where governments can act I think that's on the German and British government needs to lead on this and the 2 countries that have the highest density of of surveillance companies from anywhere in the world who are actively exporting this technology and I think that they need to take into and that to put controls in place now the vast arrangement is absolutely the end goal but it will take 2 to 3 years before we get agreement that will take another year for that and that the EU and potentially another year for that to be implemented domestically as well currently the EU is 4 years behind on implementing fast enough that's why we need interest urgent action by by the British government and German governments as soon as possible and and months how can be helped in the that
and again like political factions raising awareness in the German government will ask all of us here and itself with for any
public event like this 1 helps any media attention given to the issue of notes complaints filed like the 1 uh by Reporters Without Borders helps so I think it's it's important is simply to lobbying your your Member of Parliament your federal government me write letters and just be active on the issue of thing that's that's that's 1 thing that is of the government Jim governance is where the problem of foreign minister has clearly said that he wants export control the way in we're talking to the ministry of Economics where it's more difficult because now we get down to the you know what do we actually want what does control me is that what you were talking about is it what you were talking how do we get get that's not what I would definitely do coming back from this from this meeting is I'm I'm just preparing a letter to fit it was of which I will finish now you would I got here and will urge him to to move I know that they're talking about this in the ministry noted he wants to the issues add some pressure to the thank you very much and that will come to the end of an hour like to thank 1st of all what is you for this thing so attentively in training such great questions and I'd like to add that my hands the engaged discussion
if I have you know again this
special things not listening and reading online participant from Madagascar from his deportation cell of soluble and was based on the thank you very much that has a
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