A Method for Distributing Applications Independent from the Distro

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A Method for Distributing Applications Independent from the Distro
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For many years the Linux distro concept has been about "inclusion of applications" sometimes at the detriment to co-habitating applications and the stability of the core OS. Much discussion has been made over the years about JEOS, embedded Linux, custom distros, applicance building, etc, but not a lot of discussion about how applications could be delivered such that they were more readily able to co-habitate. Open source applications (because distros are so "inclusive") are put through significant scrutiny around their design and deployment related to their integration with the core OS that may or may not make sense. The scrutiny is certainly more intense than proprietary software is required to undergo. This talk proposes a new'ish technology, Software Collections, as a method for resolution.
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but chat screw very yeah I wanna 1 now so this set of acute counselor for a long time so you have been pretty fields and what I do is I work for that I aware what you know this kind of new thing called evolve eradicated portable or evangelist and so I've spent and about 15 years as a most as a software consultant so a lot of different projects mostly kind of the enterprise sort of things and and now use I talked to that kind of developers to use current products intercooler Enterprise Linux talk to them about what they hear about it and then I go and talk to engineering about how we can fix that stuff so that's most of that so and that's me so this talk is actually had about it it's kind of essentially about this concept called suffer collections but it also I come definitely from the developer background rather than coming from other packages background so I think I have a lot of biases toward senior developer and you know not leave things like USA here you know idea that any release stuff you know and that it will just send out there and really find that it you had no security updates but
just a little bit of you know on the so here's a little bit my argument over the last i whatever 15 years later solutions of they give the kind started in this kind of world where the you know the open source community was relatively small the but even proprietary software and open-source software neither 1 could you trust basically at all of the uh you know it was all run by developers who didn't really know or care what they're doing so things like security updates would never happen in you you if you're lucky that you know etc. so yeah early on uh a I argue that the distribution can form to try to basically solve some that ease of use problem in kind of redistribution problem around uh the security patches and software and kind of things like that so that you can add you knew where you get stuff from uh and you can also redistribute the thing so that they would say scared of who is also kind of over the new arguably earlier than that but you know over the same 15 years or so It's where you know kind of the dynamic linking concept really took off in called on you know you pockets before that but it wasn't until I like 96 97 where it was like it started become like like the way to do things of so then the latter was acting like an assurance this is was much less a problem with proprietary software obviously and although in fact they were hugely violating licenses anyway but and you can tell but we open source it was a big concern right so you want to make sure our particularly as open-source on doctor by the enterprise that you knew what kind of license you're getting into I also feel free interrupt me so you don't and crazy is just point decreasing the will to Italy and so particularly now in the last maybe 5 years there's been a in a confined to graph for this and actually seen 1 before I was looking at the outset of so many earlier that you can't just a package count Fedora each version is just it's it's just scaling like freezing obviously in something like Enterprise Linux we have significantly less packages but even that is still it's still nice strong curve and so between that now we also have a a massive plethora of actual Linux distributions that are reasonably popular so it's not you know 3 big ones right and then everybody else right there's there's there's a good chunk at the top right of and analytics in general is also becoming hugely adopted cheekily in enterprise you can't answer rooms in particular but then even even to some extent in the enterprise and that stops you know I don't think there were you know I think we're going to hear the desktop but I know of the eighties in some places you know I think it's largely going to be the only people who use kind of desktops and by just laptop at time R&D people like you that's right it's going to be just developers you just people who actually make software we use these things out right it's everything else can be tablets and you know and I had told him so we really needed to that focus on making sure that we can distribute things well so here's my here's the extent of the method you anymore you know so we have a hola projects and we have versions of each project that we have at a across distributions and then if we have version of the distributions are so that we just made the thing massively wide right
so because typically you know we we just do this kind of a tarball recommend can have to figure out the distros packaging rules and then you can figure out how to build the thing itself uh and then I started you put into package of all these rules make sure goes replaces of etc. and they're on top of that inside an individual organization that may become a 2nd set for the 3rd 5th at 47 set of parity roles within that organization you have you have to solve a problem over and over again so what we ought nicer is if we can say OK I had this package right and if you saw the are much of Donnie start cover this earlier I know it's covered the past but that you know whatever that means right so a package but essentially if we had a blob of things that we could run say on any distro right that was OS-independent version wise as well so you can kind of go this way right for the package drop on each 1 or you go this way right so you know version to version 3 version for DOS and then the other thing is can you also are there can you a start to Trost essentially the developers to follow have actors rules that makes sense you know for their application rather than it being a distribution problem so lots and lots and lots of people try to solve problems but here are but whatever 6 5 that I thought of of of my head but and ones that I could find that random easy wins were actually except in there too but I couldn't find a be like place the point people have off somewhere the this so they can sell them solve the exact same problem some of them can't it from a slightly different perspective so that's what I think is kind of interesting is to discover you know every piece software anybody rights as offs and these people clearly we were taking different trail right from so can environment you'll set up and to some extent and 2 slots can all take roughly this seems electron trade very similar actually suffer questions where going I would have multiple versions of the same thing install amino acid at time of and I wanna rely on the user to choose between them when they're running applications OS tree uh relatively new thing that is really actually about it's really about supporting arguably sporting body so you can take entire set of binaries and kind of Slocum outdated out its 1st you know doing like the binding of going all right so it's not just 1 application yes the the is an illustration yeah so but it might be the norm my think has 3 or 4 different ones at all to accomplish this goal that is going to click uh so another 1 too but they what alternatives which is uh I also trying to solve the problem but in a very different way which is uh 1 of your switch for the entire last what a version of something is so instead of per application which is what these guys do it's actually for the whole ASR right that can kind of cause some problems to do something like python right so you switch the version of Python your last on Linux rating bad things happen but violated there's lots lots more so taking some of that thought break and taking some of the so right have has a little bit of a problem where but they do it for Enterprise Linux but a lot of our customers want to use whatever version of Enterprise Linux of they're using for ever in in any form ever by a because well 1 of the reasons is because the application of the running on it it works just fine right so why would they wanna invested normally what you do is you have to invest development you know efforts at QA after release engineering effort in to modify the application to be little run on some future version of the opposite if it's a joke application that is those does why would you make that investment so as a result they instead yell companies like ours right and lots of other of Microsoft has this problem a huge way as well as you all have I'm sure seen with the the big you well announcements at every time mountaineer 0 well you know little things like 5 times that you well in that he'll actually die the so they had a few problems well but if they do some other interesting things that look up the civilization fixed in the video game Civilization the fixed they didn't in Windows sometime around so what's offered what interested you use let's instead of having the application kind of native we touch the OS itself what's put the layer between the layer of indirection there so that we can now take this blob that's in between there might be they might even be right or it might be kind of a full stack so might be a web server plus rails it would be and everything else but the idea is that there is a blob that you depend on that kind of above generally above the actual ASR and below your application so kind offer courses cern using OK populated indentified that blob illustrating that a lot of portable so now we can do is you say OK I had this change old really up what's say public but that is running on review on a right now why is it when and where the where here is because the Enterprise Linux 5 runs the 1 a and wires anniversary 5 running 180 because public run so that the any which way the point is you take any any old application or older application and what you can do it in say here's this blob a guarantee the API on top of it and I'll change how it how it delivers an API at the time so that it can be portable across multiple person you ask the other from the other way right so there's a lot of push for people moved Python 3 uh however not all the distributions are ready to make all the changes to old moved I 3 so how do you start writing applications in Python 3 right now without the you know kind of working near here when it's well what awaits you use with philosophical acts but so it's kind of you know by the 2 examples I'm getting right you because it's been OS-independent right OS can can continue on its merry way and your application can decide to upgrade when it's ready and or you can be aggressive and say they are something bleeding edge will bring new and I know I wanna use the most cutting-edge version of whatever because I'm not going to change it again for 10 years so let me get that right now and user right now to write my application so they can going into a little bit more so it really is as it has kind of funny process a little bit more than a product that you know such kind of conceptual thing you know there's an implementation but that's kind what does the other big thing it does is it packages outside of the normal no kind of the Linux file system i and that's sometimes problem for for some people I think in the room and it allows multiple versions we call installed right and then per application you can essentially start there you can you can say this application gets of this block rather than that lot so the way you we can define it is but be installed on the out with you know that that old acronym that is the Linux meaning that I can actually say so you go register for a Linux name so the newcomer short go there and then you put your application and that's kind where insults and then you have a constant scriptlets that I know where that is and can provide that information the application and the way it basically does it is by fancy path right so the application doesn't have to know this is the other documents as part of 1 of the differences between the ones that sort of earlier in this 1 is that the application doesn't have to know that it's not the base OS version which is big that I think usually important because you don't have to rely on your average developer to figure out where it's going to be and again to allow for that less independent the of someday right the Linux all institutions will be on Python 3 and that will be what that user of in Python so what you want you know right the application it's a user of impact on top and then it just goes to the right place rather than haven't and you know do fancy symlinks or you know or make a mistake and savory have been Python 3 and then find out now you have to do engineering effort support the that
so a a little more detail here is a kind of a way that 1 for Ruby works that we have built so here's kind of regular we'll be right and you know assuming that you installed review the nice thing of this they don't have to have that became is installed at all but I you have to have reinstalled except for the special application so Morrison have beginning thinking you review it can just be done so but it's pretty obvious but basically here's the normal path and here's our special past you know we ship by the review 1 9 3 variants of you want these blobs of it's it's under because that's our name and so that's promote always be this little script here is what does all of the magic such as is uh which is basically kind provides a sparse so that the the command to run these which I think that here so still enable review 1 9 3 that's so what you do is you could say here's the commands right CL wanna turn it on and then which 1 do I want review 1 9 3 of them will actually with with so wanna get a new shell that where Ruby is really 1 and 3 is available you just run back but it could just as easily be you know that you have some act right that's so from that of if you're a sysadmin it would be quite an actor in the put this in you know a shell script or start scriptural some things that you know for a developer he's going to drop and battles the time you can add this to your got profile and so it's just always there if you want as well then we talk about
so you know this this and tools of the that can help us make this stuff work of and so there some links I think all the slides are available somewhere and Joe would know better than me I We know integer you will make them this is the 1 so we've done already uh vh some of the ones we don't we actually have some they're out there for like it should be about 2 . 4 and make your own is up there that's just a public and there are some other distributions that are related that also have all of these there's a guy I think he's talking next to who had a hand in most of so I think there well represented now actually and sent us when it's in the door uh so Fedora just approved and whatever was last week personally for and note that there was no there was pressure on it so this here you can see there is there is some other stuff built for Fedora but you can't couldn't have the main the stroke and so that's basically most my slides that I was expecting more interactions I invited and they're not deliver and it can that's true that's true so this so here's can marry right and you know I'm probably crazy but I think the years in general a lot more trustworthy and when I say that the proprietary software and open-source projects and everything that any any kind of application i think the distribution doesn't have to take on as much responsibility for making sure that all the stuff in the world markets yeah yeah yeah but which you know is not a high bar I can say that they are reasonably trustworthy so they're they're even more than that there's a you know that I think a lot of stuff you know their most people understand that you want to do this kind of work right most of the understand what the what's important how to break things up you know yeah the still the stock faults but I think there are a lot of them are starting to get it you know there's well known libraries for particuarly security related things uh so people mostly use those libraries I think Bruce Schneier's finally getting through to people and saying stop writing your own encryption libraries of so since the the same can be said I just I think in general there considerably more trustworthy so that I don't know so I think that every distribution package everything under the sun and I also think another big reason right it's kind of redistribution 1 of things it's offer courses has that that cut fails and go backwards in time a little bit of is it's a lot of things are considered be statically linked right because the only way you can be portable across OS is if you carry the bits you need right so that means static linking sort of right or at least it means there's gotta be carried in the bundle so could still be dynamically linked however it's gotta be dynamically linked from within the self-reflection so where is it that I would certainly use that when I 1st with this stuff so the thing about our PM 1 soccer collection does not equal 1 rpm right of question is more like 78 thousand rpm so it's broken up just like you would do a normal package is just that it's all kind of in this 1 context to say hey I'm part of this 1 software collection so you do it is better moreimportant than straight outside linking the still the problem of redistribution so 1 of the reasons that dynamic libraries our our nice straight is that you only have to copy that 1 file on every machine with a soccer coach and let's say you know it took that's a cell and you have 37 soccer collections on every machine all using open a cell and you have at least 37 different for copy series of that it's all RPS so you need to distribute battle with Pearl however and judging by the overflowing there so they can think management are continuing to is really by you know has really finally taken you know I remember the fits and starts right I mean you know they were there was a huge push forward thinking around 2001 and just never quite took it's really kind of taken now to increase fusion particularly in the data centers it's got a lot easier so you know I think that's why we can kind take this risk but the other thing is the other risk you have is that now you have a copy of the 37 copies of a cell and you just basis not that big deal anymore so you know it's there this really matter that you have lots of copies of the same stuff on 1 machine but in the been file systems someday I pray will these default and so on matter anymore this means that a more so I think that they can they they understand the context that they're prepared and what user here I mean I developed right so somebody who's going to consumers offer their way more sophisticated of what is going on underneath and and work usually figure this stuff out yeah and the I and on the and of the what the have is heredity and you go up in the the of so yes so that all that I think a dependent collection straight out of very real and very important aspect of this that and we're still working through some of the Lakers are aware publisher it out but we've been working on trying to get but good guideline for how did you depending collections right so do you really want to do a rail suffer collection where around really right you want do a result forgotten and have a rail soccer collection depends on and so the and and what what's the right size of self-reflection right with is you know should be a full on you know kind of web server with you know it's accessibility and rails or should it be you know piecemeal said I think a lot of questioning you are yet to be known but the other thing I think there is going to be interesting about this is kind of move towards containerization right so containerization and I'm using that term to mean to be as far away from possible from any individual implementation right so you have things like Dockery adults see you have the you know this combination of open for you is an object which is when c groups as he when x and you had the you have action much older and much more sophisticated versions in other operating systems that are not limits of by this kind of this containerization concept word now we could say that this whole application is now of blob and it's portable and we can run even certain kinds conditions and it can be updated on its own I think that's going to be the next step for some other stuff and I think a lot of that will rely on something either exactly like suffer questions or something very similar uh it it allows you to kind of bring that bundle inside you know your container that the repercussions yet the been mike so if you have questions region and will bring my ground so it turns up on dealer later and haven't didn't family as you go to suffer collections installed for 2 versions of something so groupie uh was the mechanism by which the application so gets to
use the effective fashion so the so
this verse is like opted alternatives to the questions based like how you say I want this application is Review 1 9 and application use you're ready to so this of course is only the very bottom of stringers if I can't see it I should put the tops of origin but but this unlike say like up there alternatives you you tell the application which 1 it using layer your the actors that you know but you say that L enable whatever collection you want use and then the application you wanna rock so that it's basically running inside a shell of its own that has they had a correct paths so it finds it as if it was a at its normal location Mrs. is changing the environment is actually the true organize your questions and remember that and that that would be you can't even know why I got up at 6 30 this morning to the fitness center at the hotel I'd like to ask how security and dates separable properly propagated to containerized applications since of 2 recollections so say I have a rule-based recollection and will depends on some library that got to secure and they'd upstream and does it mean that the maintainer of the collection will have debated mentally and the if I have to make 5 of connections which depend on this library does it mean that 5 different people will have to update their collections include that date exactly yeah that's the problem not not dependencies threat so that you know what is the use of clarity and real story or else for both depending on the review 1 9 so US operation and the you know the security of the happened in the review 1 you would not update the rails wants In theory and a new 1 of things I like about soccer collections of instead you can also lets you know like this like but it had also led to defend kind the your QA problem right so 1 of the reasons that the enterprise doesn't want to to upgrade but often in the that they expect the code to completely work but they don't want test at the fewer resources are often the ones that you have the least of in any organization it's often the constraint that any engineering zation ever work with that keeps features from happening but and so when you do and again can talk about that Jinky all that that is just running into explain why would you want waste that very limited resources of your QA people up to test the operator so i also would hold that the you know if I I I guess I kind of expect that in a particular enterprise much like but much like outcome expect with open shippers is like in a particular enterprise O'Connor expect them to build their own soffit collections for use in house probably depend hopefully right depending on you know for a large percentage 90 95 per cent of the functionality on somebody else right light on Red Hat or on the community in general or on something but that they would have their own water so that they could be confident that the API layer at the top is what they expect completely for the applications of the building you know does 2 things 1 it gives them more of you kind tolerance for moving across versions but that it also does that kind of opposite effect which then you can still control your developers by saying here's here's the approved word we collection right here is the approved pipe offer collection don't go installing random other staff unless it's made in this article the 1 back here I have a question on how this SCL unable to work so um k use multiple of these environments at the same time and so it was so the only met this for this 1 process with some like people who or or amount dying to uh how does it get into the environment yeah it's a so the 7 basic but you you can discover list out multiple ones that you want it's not that cool it's just passed by a year so you know this is this is not you know to retain you know some brain involves system or something and running in that context there's no security here right nonetheless that this is just to provide the environment that is the kind of so when you make up new function call you get the right binary that's it yes all of this like this most level of libraries and you do 2 example these packages would include the you'd see would use to expect that from the distribution itself so that the packet areas this fact that the and that everything that you don't include makes you less portable right by makes it so that you have left the problem you thought about back there of massive redistribution of its ability to to build moles like all the pieces such you continue to so I would be ruled makes it when you have children you know all the libraries and use so while the major so what aspect of it you need to know what libraries you care about that but then there's the other aspect of where's that fine line of how much stuff to include the I think were still so that too I think you know I don't I don't think there is well I don't think there'll be a silver bullet kind answer what we're trying to do is do a better job of documenting track how think about it and they and they're starting to be a lot of examples right so now we have whatever you know 10 or 12 that were shipping and you know there's another problem that there's at least another 5 or 10 and I know about the kind of in the software world so this certainly examples that are making decisions I think we're also gonna run into problems you know it's really nice actually role 7th kind on its way out the door because that would be the 1st test of some of this stuff so you know I've I'm running with the data here and so whatever it's but it's all in like couple weeks so what I wanna do is start to try to run taken application that I wrote on the sample collection for Ruby on Rails states run that hopefully unchanged or L 7 and then I to 1 on the same thing on change on open ship around because open-set that uses offer collections of 2 that's how big delivers those blobs as well and this is much over here the yeah the normal his 1st Premier because that's the we can keep walking or a direct current property but you could include the sale of some unknown advanced coding and the cultural that I'm aware of the distributions and dependencies and versions and 7 adjustment to the our understands correctly what's and what this means so you say I can make a depicted shuffle suspended and so
includes my own dependencies when each and do it all and to the ups and this is the system of room and all I need to do to make this work in any distribution is still an instead this I possess CL treat the styles amounts correctly is so it'll work out of the 1st part is you to create the thing right so you have to have your application and always dependencies and you have to show that all into some sort of package in the in the case of talk about that or the and then on deployments on install the applications where the Office stuff from so where it's gonna show up and and then this could have still stuff works because basically now you have all of the pieces that you need um give some of it might be coming from the operating system itself some of it might be coming from this set of packages called collection of to actually deliver the API for there will be a to another application that so we expect and i know over a couple of the companies that are doing this but we expect that some companies will kind of you know whether it's open source or proprietary their actually create their own application as collection which will then have a dependent collection that they also carry a set of the questions so that then the whole thing all kind of installed there but then you have that yeah so when you install you know x y and z software you actually get that whole collection of from them and including the questions that they may get from elsewhere and hence the Indians ELM and so am patent she brings its own environment completed right and so it it may rely on some stuff that in the last 2 or it may not up that that package reflection OK so my question is are you there from links and Greeks of package managers because they're being similar joke but I believe we slightly better and we don't have you know that that the so as I said Carolyn earlier slides later everybody has had this problem at heart all the time right Microsoft has a solution to this problem as well this sort of you know about that that was a major changes that you may have remembered the advertising was you know . net sold all health right and the way they did that was having a single that global cash and upper application cash and would end up happening they had this magical mystical idea that in the book actually be you know things like you would see what in fact happened is that everything obligation that installed pick of their own it has always been the that's my knowledge about all of our but that has pretty much always worked this way in that every application basically carries its entire dependency tree every time in sort of so like it's not limited to let x number 1 and it's certainly not limited to the example I gave I don't actually have a 1 dimension of soul of that you have cookies and inability to and using didn't understand that you want to our new demands for sort of and those to be good to users was also but it's not it's really just a style it's a way of saying hey you know this is a way you could deliver your application that you because it this could this happens the RBM right the same concept could work in anything that it doesn't really matter that much but you just need kind of something like John to manage where they're coming from getting updates but I think it's the vendor of some kind could say here's a way to distributed it might be easier for you to build the packages for let's say you know enterprise . 4 5 and 6 they might be the final weighted result for collection that will install on all of them right so that they don't have to recertify for every minor version right that they don't have to you know they they can also the foreign food or even though Florida way ahead of the they arguing this is a similar question on the census goes back to how to make these applications often say of of attraction for different and rows and suffocation petition dozens of really is this is to suggest that for every permutation you want with the need to build another independent self-regulation top that's whereas we recommend that show theoretically that that's the struggle right is where where you want to draw that line so right now for example the 1 we built right this would be 1 9 3 actually includes rails story as well so you know it's call re 103 there's actually uh 40 30 some number of genomes and the accuracy of the large right which if you if I read the 1 9 3 I don't hear jets right of so I'm not sure that were entirely happy with that that choice that material rail should have been separate because then it would be easier for us to say OK now we have a real 3 a sample collection aerial force of a collection of both depending on the review 1 3 so at the and maybe missed well and I was just looking the phone a talk on the record that that and I can't use but so the details of how you can people actually create these collections how they deliver them to users on how the users install them have the manager more what are the tools look like in practice so I would include solar macros that my sanity basically that when you're writing an API right you have this big thing of file which kind of describes what's in their right and In abstract but we just add some new macros that indicate that this is all forgotten and that it's going to go out and a special place and that's about it as far as the difference and 1 thing that was kind of design goal was that the seems that file if they knew about topic or the could also be built to not be a sovereign so you should so hopefully what'll happen is that all speckled everywhere right will have the kind of support for supper collections you go that way or decide to not build that way depending on new years and then 1st to the concerned it's just yum install you know that's when the topic collection that obvious we are whatever happens we call those you know the end of the universe wakes up you have to add what color channel which we started on that but it's clear that in the Repo coming from Red Hat and it's got a bunch of them in there you to stadiums all body what I think sent to us to think the main ones that they make it to me 1 of its own test there again so intent ICT that just logging yum install review 1 3 so so it's all the tools are already familiar with the most part you know they'll they'll work just like the year were API those with public so I have also all the failings were him but here it's easy
and and have an example of an application that's packaged in a normal places like in where user would expect him but it depends on EnOcean so for example in Europe and you would run the application with norm use doesn't has never seen yeah so in cl utility the deputations 10 enables the SEM is requires it of sort of you know basically so I've done that with for each of the right so that you have to get the web server to use the review 1 3 stuff I need to commodify it starts script of and that I was for that figured it was using the native the Apache server rather suffer collection so I think that we want the in mildly careful of that because they figured that that 1 of my fears is that you if you have something that is distributed by the normal as this depending on its offer collection that might be weird you know it's kind of it that it was out of the users there was the user here right system-initiated solvers expectation of where stuff is going to show off you know as far as my assumption is it's it's disabuse separately in a separate yummy believe and maybe we can assume the when using stores and the application of using its normal places but it's using LSE of the indices figure so that that's exactly what I did for a like a really and you know who have to do what you want about profile that just runs right uh so however in general if I had like kind of a real topic what occasion you know so you know my cool website that runs in your office and I would rather that people package that has a sulfur questions and then why it's depending on suffer I I think you certifications and so you know I think of a shell script or something that's kind offered a more normal place that point that is fine but I don't know I guess I don't I don't like if some if applications sold under dropped then it shouldn't touch the rest the us that if I choose to make it touches the USSR so there is a clear that installs if you install it from other EiconScript script consultant dropped it doesn't touch the normal operating system is that all of that but I can put us in link to it from user it right so that just the 1 technical and there's no reason you can't just this system that my preference would evolution of weaponry and me questions about it's similar to a student situations that say we have a the new collection by 2 connections and I want to add a particular engage in more vitamin you and I know how to be a great advantage to a not to back environments can be easily added to existing collections due breed a new connections and found all the rights were removed the previous 1 right so but that's exactly exactly the problem in some way that we can really talk about here but and the other thing that had collection could or should be able to do right is we're talking about you know the will the collection which have this 1 happens to include rails right so let's say I wanna write it and collection that swaps through these are absurd spot rails we and put in rails for well we don't want you to have to rebuild this 1 right so what we like the 1 things that were working on from a bit I think it's more documentation problem hopefully it's not about problem but there's a documentation problem to say OK how you write it any collection that's what part of a collection rate and does that make sense or is that simply means Ch and do not go the question does this obstacle a competitor's run independently from each other means inspired wrong to at the same time which you've got the dependency inside which breaks if they're running at the same time uh and do their on independent of each other and so on was considered earlier but you can you can kind of see so I had an example where I was doing the because most of us so we are opposed stressed topological so I have that use POS stress about whatever 9 something that worship everyone that so what I do here's like us they are still enable everyone I space post-stressed back OK so that gives them both there if there is a dependency between the 2 then I think you should have a suffered collection that is dependent on the 2 and then use that suffer development so in the rails were being whales example but I wouldn't be kind of run them both I would have FIL the rails 1 such that its dependent and then I would still enabled for that yes it is just that 1 depends on the other rather than than using both the only time I would use both is because for my application I need the to 44 different pieces of software in PostgreSQL and that the enemy of we had time for this 1 and 1 more so the next question used to whoever's going to give me a year after the question at hand and then the retina develop along the lands in this topic and when you do and then compared to this and watch the news or not but I don't know if that actually what I wanted to think we found like a lower-cost timing suffer of an our work almost 3 years or so what I think we're finding particularly since we started shipping some stuff you know whatever here and changing of the days the problems people so like this depending collection problem and so you getting real world use you know stars books on holes in it I don't think the other big stuff it's changing its laser containerization by is is already a hugely important and becoming way more important than how that integrates with packaging I think is also going to be a really interesting chloride the other coming soon analysts said but I would really really like there to be kind of a proper upstream of 4 kind of sulfur collections as a concept it is open source but it's kind of like all over the place so while it's open source there's no practical means of finding all right unless you like work would be assigned to us as an art that have this magic ability to find things like this so what are things that we have in the works is to try to get of landing place for suffer collections as a whole and we've heard from people about the self that they've built that they would like other people to be will use and so kind of allow for a community the former around it but you know uh rich get lots of things you emotions lumens to give you your kid so in view of the few
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