Legal and Technical Issues of Safety Critical Devices

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Legal and Technical Issues of Safety Critical Devices
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We rely on software more and more for critical functionality in our society. Medical Devices and Cars are two areas where our lives literally depend on the safety of this software. As more exploits are demonstrated on cars, pacemakers and insulin pumps that show them to be vulnerable, the industries are evaluating their technology and some are advocating for free software as partial solution to these problems. This panel will discuss free software in Safety critical devices. including the implications of different licenses, issues regarding warranties and indemnities and liability issues for manufacturers The panel will discuss automotive and medical devices and consider regulatory issues
Medical imaging Link (knot theory) Hypermedia Chemical equation Multiplication sign Moment (mathematics) Food energy
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Complex (psychology) Existential quantification Copula (linguistics) View (database) Multiplication sign Source code 1 (number) Water vapor Insertion loss Mereology Disk read-and-write head Public key certificate Food energy Inference Lattice (group) Different (Kate Ryan album) Core dump Information security Physical system Social class Area Software developer Gradient Sound effect Bit Instance (computer science) Computer Measurement Data management Arithmetic mean Process (computing) Telecommunication Order (biology) Right angle Quicksort Freeware Fundamental theorem of algebra Resultant Spacetime Point (geometry) Game controller Observational study Element (mathematics) Revision control Causality Internet forum Term (mathematics) String (computer science) Computer hardware Authorization Software testing Form (programming) Condition number Graph (mathematics) Information Copyright infringement Plastikkarte System call Particle system Kernel (computing) Software Personal digital assistant Hydraulic motor Greatest common divisor Resolvent formalism
NP-hard Suite (music) Group action State of matter Decision theory Direction (geometry) View (database) Multiplication sign Equaliser (mathematics) Source code 1 (number) Set (mathematics) Real-time operating system Open set Parameter (computer programming) Mereology Disk read-and-write head Public key certificate Formal language Medical imaging Mechanism design Bit rate Different (Kate Ryan album) Hypermedia Core dump Damping Endliche Modelltheorie Physical system Area Touchscreen Software developer Sound effect Bit Entire function Type theory Wave Order (biology) Chain Right angle Quicksort Resultant Reverse engineering Web page Point (geometry) Link (knot theory) Computer file Open source Observational study Real number Connectivity (graph theory) Similarity (geometry) Microcontroller Rule of inference Field (computer science) Machine vision Power (physics) Element (mathematics) Number Mixture model Population density Term (mathematics) Energy level Software testing Dependent and independent variables Standard deviation Information Gender Physical law Mathematical analysis Line (geometry) Statute Cartesian coordinate system Word Software Personal digital assistant Video game Pressure
Computer virus Code Direction (geometry) Multiplication sign Decision theory Source code Design by contract Open set Mereology Disk read-and-write head Public key certificate Computer programming Mathematics Different (Kate Ryan album) Circle Endliche Modelltheorie Information security Physical system Boss Corporation Mapping Software developer Data storage device Shared memory Bit Complete metric space Data management Process (computing) Vector space Systems integrator Chain Self-organization Website Right angle Figurate number Quicksort Freeware Resultant Fundamental theorem of algebra Row (database) Point (geometry) Game controller Statistics Open source Connectivity (graph theory) Black box Regular graph Rule of inference Theory Field (computer science) Fluid Term (mathematics) Utility software Data structure Traffic reporting Computing platform Form (programming) Dependent and independent variables Information Copyright infringement Weight Projective plane Basis <Mathematik> Word Software Integrated development environment Personal digital assistant Query language Video game Gravitation Service-oriented architecture
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you're on the value of this and you go in and use to I think that takes on the pressure the mind is related to that and that the period of the world and they have the time to do is to use a lot of things so some of the parameters of the thing that some of the some of the the end of a word is yeah I think that this sector very important and everyone should know who you are and to so the idea that like every other introduced the that of course everyone should know don't you know clearly the same thing in the world that is also due the use of oral and metadata is cooperating countries it I've got a lot of things that the other institutions thank you thank you can think of that and it's the and why they tend to the thank you In the end and you don't want to spend a lot of course on the on and the value of the slope of the sort and that's what the and so our ontology or world order others all about of the main organizer of the lower end of the organizers of the World Health Organization's without the model from the thank you necessarily and to you guys who makes ah and quite quite quite short so I'm standing up and I'm hope you can hear me at the back yeah no yeah H OK I'll try like desire help so I'm I'm and for all on X GC at canonical always find years working with canonical on events to align I work as a lawyer in private practice in the UK mainly data source advice whether the companies on video stores services companies have 3 other people today with the final can sound learn is
exact directed in and foundation in used to be GCA SFL fallacy New York John Sullivan executive director and access that Jeremiah false stare his community I reach at the Jedi foundational foundation for entertainment systems and how many glad that the room so feel because this session is not really
going to be about us talking to you but as looking for you're feedback and discussions so it's been a bit more of a round table that maybe you expected some glad a lot of you to contribute and what we have in participating in some of us anyway through an organization called the European legal network a bit of a misnomer because the European legal network is just a network of lawyers who work in false globally and covers people from Asia to Australia and we set up a special interest group nuclear security critical applications and how false fits into the picture of the degree of the Special Interest Group Phase vendor-neutral its international and
it's linking to produce a white paper is over the next few months and white papers will be aimed at a mixture of Loyalist policymakers developers and people in the automotive industry medical sectors of other areas where execute security critical applications have profile are important and what we would like to achieve which is why I propose this session is to get some development community involvement to make sure that the solutions that we're suggesting is lawyers actually work is what I find when I dealt with companies that have the highest security issues is that they often have lawyers have no clue at all about false so their natural reaction is often decision nodes anything that's proposed to them which is a bit of a pain and then stage 2 is asking them what is there really concerned about I and build the wave around terms that product liability and data privacy they might even say strict liability but then when you ask them to reference the statues that they're concerned about they don't give you anything so what the whole thing is to be very collaborative to work and make sure the development community legal community in any other interested parties and to get as much information together is we can have there isn't a URL or anything I can give you but if anybody at the end of this still is interested in wants to participate if you can either identifies cells to me before you leave or I guess maybe Richard weights some we will contact up on the web so as not to do what you want because we slides in if we feel afterward so you needed something the size that we have given you will submit slides to go the source of more than enough on the past year which can sample and understand certain presence can we're sitting down they rely on where we have a really low and high and the executive of the canal foundation this area is like the weird intersection of my at my professional my personal life I have a patient with a medical condition and I haven't invented pacemaker defibrillator so I literally a proprietary software connected and screwed into my heart and so it is it's a it's a bit odd and atom as a lawyer in free software and then and then as the sum sovereign advocates and now is executor of the of the known Foundation and having that experience is made me extremely passionate in my advocacy and think it's incredibly important and also gives me a way of talking about suffer freedom that it is indeed a little bit unique because when I got in front of a group of people and I say I have I have a big heart and i have man are very likely to suddenly died it makes people sort of think about their software in a different way when you say my life relies on my software and when I get people to think about their software on medical devices then insert thinking I can say what about them you know cars and went out boating genes and all the society like critical functionality and if you do in a lot of the issues related all these things are related which is why we're all here in this panel I confess I did not actually know about the same until this panel so I have been involved in that at all so I assume there you know these are presented there and our officially half the panel has participated in that so far as they decided ideal of a clear that when I when I in stage we have use which is trying to work out what the issues are a little bit of help the so I finalize the issues related to the area of medical devices
are our common to these other areas of safety-critical critical devices that operated discussing the more a stand up there were the most information sources is and so from there is a character the Free Software Foundation um now I will shock and surprise you by then we think that our copyright licenses are excellent uh and concepts that have safety and security concerns we think that of left is an important policy follow there just mother suffer concerts and the place where that tends to brought up the most in the devices that can cause people harmony and cause lots of damages and the question of whether users should be able to modify the software on the device themselves and install a new version of and that's it's kind of a funny question if you think about where comes from because I especially if it's in a case where you have a common factor that wants to use free software in the car themselves they want ship for example the kernel when it's on a car computer system but then they want to stop the user from modifying it because that might endanger only when user kernel because kernels out of the kernel get to be also the kernel got to be awesome by lots of people anybody the modified and contribute information so it's sort of like a really enable the freedom to modify in order to build the software which we can now use in cars and that's awesome but we're not gonna kick the latter away while we're still standing on them and make sure that software can get any better through the process but so that's the 1 important concern we have and the 2nd 1 is just the whenever you talk about social security you have to ask for who and true safety and security in the situation comes from the person worry about their own security and being able to actually restaurants their security and Jordan were given security measures and a lot of concepts that actually are looking out for another entity security whereas control over the user so you have uh cargo pretty prevent you from modifier car because you might make it let's say we assume that if you have an accident while what if you want to go to another part of your mechanic and pay extra safety features as yourself right that's something you can do if the system is locked up and that's something that is in your interest in your string or are you ever 2013 and uh security researchers 1 2 % of my paper about affordability they found that were in the electronic party system will allow people to gradients you lots of luxury cars that were cities in such a most companies that again against the security researchers to prevent them from disclosing that ability in public so all of the car owners than were under the security risks to carve companies with destined from it couldn't do anything about it themselves because they weren't even permitted to know about the problem or modify the software that's so so the what we think of the the main concerns that we have we talked about reading modification is good for security and we think that modifications of fundamental freedoms also in order for people to be autonomous just as it is in any other free software by under my culture I don't have a legal
background of these guys income much more from the resolver background by so but I think that does this form is really what I think most of us here probably all 4 authors writers involved distro all of the safety critical devices to be critical licensee is a great place I think for us the learners discuss how licenses lead copula my from copyleft licenses affect our software piracy free suffers moving in the areas that has been before and safety critical of much more important I don't know how well we address that today of on fire respect that this forum and this this see would get a lot of cooperation forever in this room and that's what here today you just sort people from sort of the deadly into okresie approach has really come everybody here all asses tough questions we suppose that you have you know the lawyers legal background not favored so we need to to start discussing this is really really important and the the result is graph to save a lot of lot of United States think over 10 years the last 10 years more people died in auto accidents and died in water rat this is a pressing issue we can make a real difference with our software so expect everybody to up to join in here and try to come up with some solutions that of the some of I read to you guys insurance sweet for Mars it does anybody wanna kick off the summer to special issue I can then use the habit of reading right there and so on which of the war warranty and that the the the of the review the rest of this question I think is that if you have a warranty with the vehicle and someone then modifies the self where what will happen to the war and see how I can remain valid what you so that's 1 of the core concerns I think that a lot of manufacturers have and at least from our approach that yielded 3 for example so that's what we're here not acquired superb continued provide toward the ones situation where someone is modified suffer themselves on so that's what is that energy that I used to work for general motors is a lawyer nearly 20 years ago I used to draft warranties extended warranties that kind of thing and my view and that is you right it's probably void but changing software modifying itself was not any different from using unauthorized parts or parts that are not covered by the warranty some why are we concerned that that's different from any other place in particle from eating lattices can add to that that I think that you know that the licensed software is a bit of a red herring here in terms of these issues because you know it's extremely naive to think that proprietary software is not modifiable and you know and I think we've we've seen that in the EQS plates recently the freest explorative Austin if you guys have not seen entries x go take a look at it from using and it's at really effective for advocacy when people say you know if we release the software then it becomes it becomes less secure in your vulnerable people modify think now now our sulfur is vulnerable period and so I think that sometimes focusing on the issues related to user freely of where this is problematic and is taller and hang and 1 of that the mystery point because of the problem that I see there is that we use to distinguish the cases were to be immune from something related to change the software whereas some other hardware breaking you know like like tire breaking it just because it's it's spending manufactured how you go about the manufacturer not saying well you know that it's about time technically you change the software so that we want to and you have to have tires too you know it's not that all about economic extra but I think you know what I'm getting at in the back of genome-wide you wanna say something I'm sure that in there are right to repair loss so in some instances you have the right to change a tire on cause of maybe a free software license would also ensure that you the right to repair the software on your part to make it more safe so I don't think it's so cut and dry the if you buy void your warranty US not that big a deal your view on a girl is devoid of 30 thousand EUR car that's a big deal and somebody might be willing to offer a different think you might find these were legal area have the I recently the development of the of the of of the of the whole or in due to condition and the use of cards and the inference that I read it out to other and yet of the price In the insurance company refused to ensure that car with of sort of a lot of the time it got there and you the and all their companies were and we should do it and in and you know some of you although and you all you want to do this yeah formed the solution right shall so I think what we say we want to prove that you choose for the class and the cost you know me I mean for the next stage of the life of because of the the world and the rest of the year in which the system the initial that I can barely reading of daily news so we often think works the remarkable thing is that our personalities but also with the use of so far for the sort of texts and the control will be so great that the study shouldn't be those affected the go went to bed you think them you and so on so have a lot of which the certification tests we leave open and usually that the different sources of social complexity of the cost of a kind of space as well where people also like the right thing to look at it from the head the of the of of the of the of the of the you and I don't know what your class which is the nation's revision something so the world so 1st of all you know all those cases there is an effective means manager of the people who stand in course of the and that was also even though they are in the form so I think what we're saying is that was initiated that we need to deal with in the White Papers and it may be that that is she won't be the same across every country we have lost people participating from different places and the issues around tivo ization I guess where you can't lock down occurred there has to be the ability to modify an a few have that its modify you're not controlling it by saying that the person is modifying is certified are authorized by the the car manufacturer whatever manufacture it happens to be and that the risks that are the voyager insurance so there's going to be that and your warranty and is going to be questions by diagnosed 6 and what we lawyers call calls on trained so showing that something's arisen directly from the impact of changing the software and the liability in the race is just that you're going to mess up your car and you've lost all your money in your car because it's gone wrong but that this as a safety element here that safety element means that you're driving a vehicle and if the vehicle goes wrong and 1 car manufacturer said to me suddenly baby
entertainment system you is system goes like you put your foot down you crash to kill somebody you know there's a there's a genuine concern for life as well as financial concerning the whole safety pieces so as to what the world the drawing float will like those quite just trust in a society in the way of extending another 1 that's you so when you 1st of all say that it was just so you know that there's no there's on difference there under the we use the mother of so this is areas are talking about using software to enforce laws by prohibiting all modification of software you all sorts of nasty side effects I wanted business anecdote and regret and open view of how many of these similar car safety features interviews you run into this and I have a car and my random very old this is or you me but they do things like when you started over 5 miles per hour to kilometers hour you type on the screen it won't let you and my 1st experience with this was when a summary of driving the car and you discovered in history for and Mike tapping on the strain trying to figure out why wasn't working and almost constant at something then uses the destructive power to know what seems to be a safety feature can backfire and when you're not able in walking down entire system in order to enforce some things action evolved for much further off looking outcome-based tests to verify the whatever's endemic are still works you know we're supposed to justify take those questions that are people comfortable talking about GPL 3 and T and decisions around that something maybe we can discuss a little bit something as given by is sure of all take responsibility for saying something should say I think that could be used to be on were created of the general that most car companies would not accept a GP of the 3 licenses solve for much of the core that does represent media just think that represents was part death of related to the use so 1 is indeed what you do is change itself with the best of breed overview all of which have the newly modified soft or so you don't look too long so you do something and then all of the terms of work you get some privileges if you just move on this is a great question and I've asked multiple people who work for all semester companies exactly that and they haven't ever be able to give me a statute that says you cannot do this and whether that's because they don't want to share our happen in situations wants to share with me whether it's because they don't know who or whether it's just lawyers reacting and enable fussing and saying 0 this is a legal and is 1 of the things that instigated this group these white pages is we can all get the hard fact Thomson's and we're trying to engage lawyers in your Simitis sector as well as medical in the hope that if there genuine real concerns and actual statutes they will tell us what they are and we will try and help with the development community build solutions again adjourned I think the reality is probably going to be that there aren't any laws prohibiting it but the internal policies within those companies which may be for very good reasons why as why like a general liability in area in in part of the problem with our spaces that in a lot of the area is a lot of like licensing a lot of legal issues that come up as a just free software do not have directly applicable case law and common law countries yeah and so we're looking at the case files can wear imagining how other people might interpret them as it relates to a completely different situation and that means that some lawyers interpret it 1 way and other lawyers interpreted the other way and so you know same was asking show me a statute is an analyzed Sarah lead the way to get the notion is that you give me a case give me a line of precedent show me what you're applying because the strict liability piece which is all from what the law is in most sectors do you bring up do you have to start using what liability does the statute so all the status either is a base in terms of applying existing case law yeah it's always going to have to be that links all of your people will be for 1 yeah that's was the OK great what he say Artemis and I think this OK and what is going on with all the things that you seem to know more about this than any of the lawyers of the 6 Middle she joined the European nations would be to use the that this was the result of the work of and the people who are a part of the thank you for the yet but please note seriously please give us the information even if you don't find it very often used so yeah and and OR and all others then the question of risk which is why we need to understand better laws or so we can include solutions that help mitigate the risk of getting any element s Indiana day if we can't demonstrate the benefits freely licensed software in his applications and you and demonstrate that the fears about them are often unwarranted when compared with proprietary software solutions then you know those lawyers are never going to make the risk analysis in our direction lawyers know all edge as big as 1 alloy if you screw up you know will never say yes will almost always say no all unless they're pressure the compelled by some business reason to do otherwise it's exactly the the what we need to show the value and she show the solution so you're trying to think about their deform behind you this the the the the the head and the modifier of that we begin by all the people that we would a kind of more of the end of the world because the certification of you know the and as you point and we know about the model this the and the value of what you start and you have a right to the end this and he met some of you and I think this is a very and so this is the notion that addressed also and you of because if you have to have somebody that was close enough to you like the way we do notice is that this modification causes harm in the network so in some fashion and you can keep the device off the at the there's some analogous and the problem of the gentleman brand did the the in if is the need to speak up a little bit so it's very hard to adjust the state of the art of the of the the the the the the the history of and the the people by the end of the year in the U of the and the parties in the research and of the the and the so there is there is chipping in your car you can get a chip and change the fuel mixture for example if you got a much faster when your courses start spewing black smoke and they decide that some of the greatest thing in the world that should be here cause not the same as having a result from the car and the car companies are the ones who were looking at putting result from the car so they have to write down the license to that's correct and and if they fall at the GPL the 3 when many the community of 3 is a very good license for the car what do we respond and we really need the free soften community really needs to be a then use these licenses in seeking critical system so so that's the question of the budget mechanical use you or you will
the the it does aside insurance companies really understand also that using the critical licenses using result I know what you think of of heart rate of commercial trucking knowledge use of Linux you know how long does the microcontroller level what is required to proprietary real-time operating and very very recently that it's coming from FMS there are standards for those standards agreed on by consortia lawmakers really working together very conventional supply chain but they're not as good as keeping up the pace of commercial software and links community when all and you have to sort of the tracking you know the thing that you're going to start with that of the source language and also pulled it will be released so this quite a few people want to contribute some government gentleman back so and that the the the idea of the story of the the ground rules because of the in and what about the brain the test and the use of a you to in and I I want to know what the future the fast interested in it the way you want it to the what the height of work as efficient as it provides a and even the sort of based on the on the on the part of the In both different you know all the and cigar AIDS crisis has been too far before there is there's a test suite of underway and she there's a lot of work being done there and anything down there will be contribute back to open-source I think will probably need to involve insurance companies badly in government agencies but I think it's a great idea should be followed gender middle than that that's salary we have some things in here as this lecture annual test you have to take the car and emissions doesn't yet safety testing things like a very and sort of reproduced results in the area of model yeah we have a similar enmity indicating can font just a quick question last honest about this about you got the 3 positive work with he said that he felt that certification working with of the government would be a good way to go to can the deficit explain a little bit more about the vision of how that would work could be possible to say lock that car software but have all that source code open to all of us this kind of third-party certification body my review the of runs diffusion and say a modified in certain circumstances were or how we work and I think it is not the charter and force any of those rules at the level of just wholesale blocking modification under the DMCA and think that's the user needs to be in charge of what's on that system and and society and the government we also know is that there the rest other people so it makes sense that they are rules that we follow soon of the go out there but it has to be handled through certification is non helical behaves just like it is for manufacturers making writers software certainly you have test standards for the components of the density us don't force that at the software level solicitor very modifications in and you end up with GPS systems are out you buy McDonald's intentionally and you can change that because you can change anything like this so the what brings and that I distance a few people back here intrastate trying and everybody and is the the in the and the and this the this is the point gentlemen have either that of the resources that we have a set of you here you you really care about that you know the soccer you don't have to have a lot of those I 2 and they have heard about it in the field of research that might be especially useful in the support of the problem here is that so now at the hour of devices in the blue light the hardest part problem it and so here's the question here on how the courage and allow to with and without having to pay the interest on the world war 2 so some of the that's the the corporations resolved by the end of the race and the certainly so I really want you to you would have a lot of companies on the so the people of rest of what I was saying to me because it's really and so on we use and the perception the people of the cost I think the yeah I think I would say participate in this group and get these very issues a reading the paper is and there are going get the policy makers and like this and insurance marketplace that needs to go to as well as the automotive which need to engage some of the lawyers involved there too often so we understand what er also in a bit but my guess is that when you're so now all guys there is that the cheapest way that we had with the really major impact is to support the people who were reverse-engineering showing you know in in a nice benevolent wave this possible X plates with that argument that you know Barnaby Jack recently died but the work that he did and piecing could've herbalism insulin pumps you know was invaluable show that the Prius X by showing that the proprietary systems are exploitable and demonstrating where similar situations you might have a better or at least equal experience of brain of a source of words is probably going to call me make me that has it so sensational better release with people the sense that the world the goal of the Department of the and the 1st 1 is the there is also the role of science the the if you usual you this and this and this is the last major lights uh and the behavior of the rest of this notice and use the director of the time the so that's really scary because a study to show that the United States doctors use Wikipedia's the number 1 but not too high then anyone that directed to be aplicable the weapons and maybe that's an actual image of the I think it in the the
war in the middle of the things the rest In this for a year and according to talk about this size and you have lots of platforms this account also almost all of them out there this side of the of the people in the store you articles this is the direction for this matter it's the very strict quality controls of development colleges and and I don't know how to find we used the all of this that's that's a huge issue when you look at the process of automotive software-development Theory incredibly organized they have project managers program and they have you know almost one-to-one manager to developer and they have very low complete certification tooling all this stuff and free software you would deviance just want you guys getting in Galston gathering the situation at the our societies hence are processes very good but it's different structures differently and that those of a lot of commercial
software folds don't trust or bosses or you can manage that I had I want time it back to the miller let's go back to the question of the was something wrong and and the history of the uterus so there will be this will be the time want this work on and I'm sidetrack a little bit I'm working with 2 organizations the UK they're trying to do a maps and share data so they don't just have the the medical devices the and so forth deal with but they're also trying deal with consensus and every individual consensus the medical records in shared beginning with best practices and had put those an open community into gatekeeper very so that you know the qualities appropriate people to be sharing the information not be misled there's a complete my is you know is a great idea is a great basis is a right and stated that the legal size could be mindful of you can just afraid to say How Harkonnen vectors here proving that the software they provided with the car is still running uncorrelated next or how do you make sure that the of the pacemaker is not the malfunctioning of sort of on some of the the of the of the world through all of them can you prove the world can be your garage of the source of the people places or I tell you that my medical I have 0 control over the sufferer might arise and it is terrifying especially since the technicians that update my device are people who have no idea about anything about software they had no idea that they have equipment that might have viruses on it were or they don't know anything they've never heard many of this step and it's pretty much every time I go to the doctor to new educational experience as well and I'm only grateful that I have no wireless component in my device that we stand alone someone is doing the use is of the so in the implantable devices field there's no you know it's it's on hand the technicians don't are very knowledgeable about software retaining is a little bit different than any other fields that and I just had a China that because it makes me so angry the into the most the of useful and useless often the car has to somehow make itself known I know which words and it's open source software can conclude that this is of money and you know that the replacement of can somehow objective and will not be done sleeping or something so I want you to meet some of fluid so the solutions to the union of controversy comes through what's running side of the that you have to make some of Florida's something concisely have the session is the thing that says use the we have for people who want to 3 4 here are trying to ask questions and we got just under 10 minutes left so that's the back in the of and all these together it's really really really true this that is that we are on the on the the 2nd part and it was more than I agree it never argued against that you too much more this was processes much better but this is new for a lot of companies and I think we have a lot of legal a little bit a background to demonstrate like the press Aliza cases and things like that that demonstrate that when the source code is revealed that in fact it it was are being improved because the companies their manufacturing source good have less incentive to make sure that that you know questions there are some comments are entering and things like that you know the yeah where you have research sort of things like the the regularizer safety-critical devotes right now just because for many hands over the whole book because into don't have a general based on the results of a black box know 1st any I dated very statistics provided 6 and they have the right to inspect them that this is the find breath lot of thinking about this in his head is silent and you a restaurant you lose your legalized because if the contract will from genome entirely and I think the you're right I want you use the you know the the the the the the the and the full resources but the issue here is what I call the wreck site cooperation here so you know we we sort of know where should we go the life of the the life of from the shore and about the gravity of the all of the various things in life life better all the circle you already have these things in place you know what happened and occasional cools which she was also used in very real world wide you always argue about the other we in will a business decision related to the new sulfur land that is used in many things for us why why why is not a business decision you can take during this was really models and now I've got now obsolete no are a really good fish back not so I've worked a little bit with the Cabinet Office in the UK and and also in the European legal network we're trying to and they perform Europe policy great they're trying to influence was happening here in terms of procurement public curement of more specified in documents and you can certainly in London from Lloyd's of London from brokers there you can buy insurance companies there you can buy underwriters you can buy insurance against open source that what people are generally concerned about IP infringement which you can definitely and I have purchased insurance for in terms of liabilities you might have a maintain you you're taking the the liability from if you're big utility I doubt very much you going directly to small project you probably going to systems integrator and that systems integrators so I can take on the responsibilities the IBM's aggregators can do it so I really don't think that's I think it's defeatist is possible and see down so there was just there the of the you know what it is 1 of the source of and so on and so the the at the and for changing the 1st of the and that the you don't have the nothing people use the cost reduced our standard of the year it know the century dangerous South Korea and known so we don't do this and and to your 1st point I think they're going to the small companies like that of source is a good idea however you start climbing up that food chain of your was supplies you the figure was all of them a lot of proprietary software so that's where the real trouble is I think that the big companies you know that the car companies I think they're very interested in I think they the problem of source they would be up to date like the network formed by getting over the food chain as much tougher a system might and the other is the the solution to the problem and the thing to know what this theory is realized by the end of the because and also was still there you don't want to listen compile and 2 of the dual environment and this and that there was talk this morning in the world around you can use you it's good to know that if it source fundamental that you can use the the value and it could verify frightened that value is the the is the same so the device solutions very low this of the rule of the of the whole what that has great can you touch an enchanting and that and that is worst part of my device that that that that that that that that that that that of the of the the of the so and of the donor will shortly and this is a distinction that I find it is necessary to make when explaining the ECA to medical professionals do any of you know what I wanted to have the source code I don't necessarily want actually tough-minded by mind you must know you are modified the source code and your device's radio no I want control over the software might give you that that my life relies on but I don't necessarily yeah agents agency but that there isn't a separate those I'd like to be at the point where you hurts so I think we have 1 see here we have 2 minutes a guys in the weight of a query on 1 of the 4 times the the incentive for a commercial company in the world what is the because there's a problem with me and all that you know and we also know as the development of some or all of the possible for licenses business agree with that's so you do is read these companies can use to solve this free on lessons and then to school that money so need leader we pressure from the public and we demonstrate that proprietary software is over time less safe than green of answers are accurate and so the only thing really part of sorry sorry were really running out time this 1 last week on the we might have to say what software you can change in the middle of the we and the more you think about security and was also found that we would not change this we worked because everyone can you read you find I mean more easily security issues but then when all of the sort of things with the rule of all the up and we have all the reports of the of the accidents will be reasonable changes forms or in notes of a new law and with a method that works great has completely messed up right there is no security built into my device to broadcast you will find is but you know generally they they are and you know and the code is priced permute the business area so we need we need real security we need you know yeah that a case that we need to know about that thank you very much at all and that the time to go