Is distribution-level package management obsolete?

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Video in TIB AV-Portal: Is distribution-level package management obsolete?

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Is distribution-level package management obsolete?
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Recent trends in software development have raised questions as to whether package management in Linux distributions is still relevant. Whether it's independent package managers in popular Web frameworks and languages (Node.js, Ruby, Python, etc) or bundling and containerization that's become increasingly popular in DevOps culture, it appears that integrated approaches to package management are on the decline. Yet at the same time we've seen package managers in the Windows world such as NuGet grow more popular. This talk from a leader of the Gentoo Linux distribution will explore the reasoning and history behind this shift and whether it's the right move for the FLOSS movement as a whole
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and read from a crew person the whole judgment voice was great that was going to be a lot better than there is about 5 minutes ago after scrambling to catch the last of the in time so I don't have any references during the talk this morning because and probably to you as and it's going to be looking at lots of beer and form of energy to start for a long time now I started I can't go over it and it was in June 2000 and so on doing this for long time to think about for long time and now in the past couple of years I was fortunate enough that you can import the company that what we do and think about this stuff of the work but my job is called industry analysts which are you know we really know what that means the what means to me is that you spend all my time doing research about the state of the art of development and how that people are actually doing well actually now in all the service when back to my initial of my initial source of objective so we're used to match that more words everybody today in the digital world from and where we need to go and you know why are so many developers running max instead of 1 and the part of the experience such as religious sort plot and Joe is going to see some of the slides for the 3rd time of answering something completely different is given 3 talking about forces of but you will not be same I promise you that I and so so the questions and I'm trying to all points but sometimes it is also a few of the key questions for me 1 thing about where did you stay where you need to go is how will our our actual suffered losses in the real world doing things and how could this shows do a better job of catering to empower users doing things like this is dedicated to them because all these things happening out there and that we use as this shows and I am here is how many of you are volunteers for a Linux distribution excellent perfect time had you how many of you think your distribution and solve all the difficult problems the and give it to you here for a reason you wanna think about this stuff on and feel free country after I would have used technology more the the things want to say those but where article which were used in where they need to be and what what we need to do to build the right kinds of things for yeah come and less importantly down the bottom is what we want is great to build the distillates friendly for new maintainers in the history of its more important to build 1 people actually wanna run and if you don't have people wanna run the thing you normally get anybody want to continue with this whole funnel thinking about things like you know nobody becomes maintainer magically without the 1st and so on intervals after that users and developers want to run on and that's not happening in the hostages synonymous are of low bit of data and I apologize for the black and white but also an excuse I had a little bit of data mining across a few different resources and you may not know it but when you talk in places like companies and do google searches and searching for your you that I I'm looking behind the scenes in trying understand what are people doing and when why and so data is more reliable than others so if you if you don't like 1 particular data source that's fine what makes it interesting is the trends across multiple data sources and that's also what makes it more reliable to me Michael the of cool chance find if you those circuit but you the trans-rational trans form across Hacker News across stack overflow for example across get help from the done on some mining of IRC logs of part of my machine examined along with some data in their inducing from things on and then across this example on 1 of the others as 1 extra where they're actually matter survey what destroy running and what you see is not really surprising there's a kind of about years this loads of um but what is interesting is is Archer and so he pointed out entered I think was last later this morning so I don't think there any extracted I mean you're chooses so what's going on with that right so that's another sense where you got this set of traditional that shows the set of new this man and even the new ones I don't think have solved the problems that need to be solved and that's what we're going to talk about today but but if you look at the stuff you see some interesting trends emerging in terms of if if you think about this and try and build some intuition about what are these people like you using these different data sources and at least nothing include turn such as normal people at least insofar as you can be normal and the running at the same time and no 1 external alright these people are interesting technology there will be more technically savvy on happened is the actual developers and not just users and the easiest mn so that those my intuition with 1st and what's interesting about looking at this this is the intuition holds and you get trends that sort of makes sense when you think about where the developers were the enthusiasm where the more normal people running lights on and don't think any of that laughter this here today so it's going to be looking at data from them and talk about them without without seeing the you rarely observed normal Linux users only if you of recent trends in makes sense you see things like wild there's so many developers for arch the but in terms of enthusiasm and normally uses is orbit last whereas you know what it meant and and I what make fundamental just through all proved in that but but in terms of normal people running that there's loads of of people what minutes super easy it's super just tells you here's what you need to do and were interviewed for you and you need to think about that you don't need flexibility up at the you might but I am I think all the searches included Linux so this minimum exertion experiments was on and not new fortunately so the are here sorry for that yeah so that's the search such that you can keep out some of the stuff you don't happen although it's it's never perfect I'm like for example searching for arch gives you all the architecture stuff little Linux as well minus you have to deal with the induced controls the the you if you actually look through the results you realize that after you do 100 of them less than 1 them talks about architectures and the other 99 . 9 . on but it's it's interesting to look at the same so this is this is where things or in the closest sense we can get to real data because almost nobody actually installed popcorn on or something like it we don't know how many Linux users are where no how many how about the button looks like across different histories of this is about as close as we can get that sort of thing where you will come out of the resources you build a list of but is pretty consistent across a lot of them on the only 1 with such a great deal confusions met from I don't know is is this number more right or that of a more I would almost every other case it's fairly consistent from and consistent with the least my intuition of so many people use about 2 them and unfortunately for me is not so to anymore and the 2004 to come and
even with this orbital in and say OK to happen is is the 0 . 1 of what the other data sources look like person and again you see things work out sort of in a way you expect and some things are much more biased toward developers some more biased toward normal users and some of them what is a really weird some of them like the approach for example it apparently in the easiest don't like box but everybody else does so people just enjoy playing around stuff and not unnatural to explain that and but for most of the stuff does actually makes sense to think about and
there were a lot of during the incident maybe ideas and if if you look at it just trends over time without any axis to show you volume just look at what trends over time and you can get some very interesting ideas of which way things are going on and I'm not saying by any means that is more people running this so that the which we're or things going what the people care about enough to talk about it and I put in red everything that's going up or remaining stable and graze everything else and in fact it's it's interesting to me and part is used to you just wrote and I'm a colony of the not that they're onto the nearest shows are going up dominant sent us is actually pretty stable which is interesting in that I'm sorry the scale of the time scale of this is since guys 2000 to 2003 for the last 10 years or so from which is what I meant basically doesn't exist until more recently I mean Archie can see some of the some of the noise about talking about work people is talking about architectures Linux background and picks up I'm in the same thing of open season because until they decided to call it up and make it more open I guess but it is of value to look at this anything but while people don't seem to care about so much about things like well Slackware charity Fedora deadliness leads to is doesn't mean they're running at but they're talking about it but it's an assumption is just what underlies was this 1 up care and so that's 1 point this talk is how do you keep the distro relevant key people caring about it and those things is you have to integrate with the way they wanna work from investors can build the city of here's how action-adventure work were going to keep it that way forever and so move forward with the times the scribbles issues on any 1 of these trends it's happened
over the past years or so is is on how many of you have ever run anything class and they do just showed do the job of that a rerunning Mac at the time maybe from just integrating with this new style of development is something the distress of not integrate again and you know the door for the most part to things like natively cluster lecture configuration data from you know this this guy named Randy Bias stereochemical Cloudscaling fantastic analogy of a cattle vs. where in the cloud world all the servers are cattle and if 1 gets sick you just take it out back and shoot it but in the world we live and on the server the past the carefully taking care of there certainly not picked Joe so even the joke about kicking Academy elevator with and again I think he just like flipped on its distances so in our world of meaning everything carefully and carefully and song and and for the most part poses new things let us come along and add a tried it the reason I'm here late this it took me 15 minutes to pass information management and then that's something people care deeply about and that distance for the most part don't handle another some modules are in a certain phase of the mysteries running rpm active whatever behind the scenes but it's not native and at the satellite and and we don't really care about mean people can if they want to but you know for example why finally we install all the distros using profit using shaft why don't we just sat that on a machine and that's the way you do act on is let's look at 1 run stuff and suicide bomber on package management on top after the fact you've got this weird mishmash of things happening were OK got CPA and they've got high power they got another song Johns and others don't talk to each other so you got 20 copies the same thing different versions of integrating it's just not a great experience time and that's that's sort of the 1st management them the that's the point here is that developers today on maybe not you but not the only developers of the research on on our are looking for experiences configuration and start to the year I mean even judges on infrastructure runs while Celsius slowly moving forward something more modern observations that for more than 20 years as 1993 when when syphoned off I have enough and we're still not thinking about and our do any distress here do you think you do a good job of integrating with free management forget but I'm but that's the way people wanna manage their systems because we're working in Haskell work transient things we don't surrounding solid things and you know we we cannot I think red-eyed initially video start on quite a while ago and we can do that and then we solve and we need a father we need to start integrating these things into the way not just where we developed a discipline users install the destruction and in 1 of the good people on option to upload and cryptid repository to configuration management and then we could sort for the basic we already manage loads of weird servers doing all kinds random things for destroying West I wanna make about expense for the users and when they destroy the install as they inevitably do and I never will you know we've got form and it and it's red rocket
and 1 great example of this but how poorly we improve information management is chapter the which which forbidden votes yeah stop-action as insertion of data aware that we don't want to be in your report on just please take us out because we're doing a better job of being up-to-date and having all packages that matter to us were the domain experts and get us out here and they did which was great there wasn't a but but that's a real problem it's a problem for a lot of reasons because you know as this shows we create all these policies for packaging and guidelines encoded on for reason and so everything works together and so happy and now we're in this weird sort of middle ground where if you got if you got the highest these and softer renders writing on packaging he doesn't understand on top of us the distro and it's in between in this point where it depends on things in the distro other things depend on it so but it doesn't integrate right and so you end up of all kinds of of bugs that also my college would love to talk to you about 4 hours and and and so you know where this replace where you know searches for the most part the stable and broad soft rolling shutter especially software that sort of fall out my freedom of life was a lot of innovation happen very quickly how do you keep up with the pace that because users want to run the new software and they want the latest features at the same time that we put out something that stable Thomas somehow think anybody's really solve the innocent people taking an effort like go to get out folks of labeled sample collections really trying to put you knew were softer for developers on top of the world but it's it's not in a in a place where you know that's a normal behavior yeah and it's not a place that users and developers running the distance you looking for and then in all honesty I'm not sure of the right answer for the question but it's a question you have to think about this so what is the right answer for you so you understand what you're optimising for like getting I I am curious how
many how many distros actually have continuous integration so Freud packages which 1 all OK so far for the court packages so we have almost none of them but that's the way that the 2 professional staff genera of working in a modern company which most of them are not and you have see I and we can assess the ability of the 1 on now this chose and were not doing things like how many of you heard of the continuous delivery can deployment excellence are you doing in while also great that's that's that's a good 25 per cent of you who were doing continuous delivery on the most was on doing with the this and this is 1 point where I am actually very project to because we've been shipping software users with an hour for the past 10 years From but we're not actually testing these kind of users are the test the and that and that's why they're call this right and that we need to start delivering software continuously and in and tested so that they can give a modern stuff but it also works and what not and so we've got you
know all of these different packet headers all over the place every language has its own some lenders have like 3 or 4 of jobs strips of great example I mean there's and PM the our there's jam and how many of the jobs the package managers do you actually need on and I guess we haven't gotten to a larger number than to the question of but none of them talk to each other and we we've put some work in a judge on trying to integrate this stuff and say hey let's slots download so from part and then generated gentoo people with the I'm not going part of the way toward the right answer but I think I think the answer that we need is the package managers need immediately understand the stuff I'm having a translators and going enough and because people are announced on this of moment but and especially on more modern developers using things like you know and and like Ruby on Rails on as much as we don't wanna talk about that here because we're all the brain we love the copula and that's that's what people are and that's what we need to build for on and we're not really in a terrible job of a soft cancer people end up with enough of different copies of the some of the lower level things in a node for example installed by by 5 different package managers and is just an ideal situation is you know what's using what I'm uniform with all kinds of interesting issues and and so what we do about that and and I think the integration is going to be the answer um is not normal the developers today
are using all kinds of crazy data stores and for the most part were still store impact management in flat files you know why are we keeping it in a more critical way in a more reliable way than just sticking stuff in a directory somewhere in in a bunch of text files we had a script all time and treats all kinds robes and I know some distros actually do but a lot of them and if you saw things in a way that's more friendly more transparent to developers running staff nor happens it lowers the barrier Flanagan involved on because the the destroyer runs in a way that they are used to working and so they they're more likely to become a dista developer dista contributor because it's friendly to the way they want and and all these things are packaged but you know where we don't we don't rely on any of them and then there is a point to and I am going to agree with the criticism you want and that we shouldn't have to rely on the stuff like why would you ever wanted you to Cassandra cluster of and running the distance all package Fisher Europe would same time you have to optimize for something and I don't think that something should be you know text files at the expense of data consistency not sure that's the right tradeoff and on your toes
happening out there in the real world war 1 not for the most part of the life of some of you think in a slurry and people who are doing all kinds of 10 containerization I mean virtualization isn't even interesting anymore that's gotta be containerization study lxy online and you know from front ends on top of probability I'm on top of virtual what's in the case of a graph where everything is happening tenors harm but none of us are anything containers we know that none of the this shows to my knowledge understand how work containers or install anything in containers on with I think 1 exception and poorer which is built around a doctor and that's how you know lot of things smaller collocates even remember whenever if I have time and just 1 of them with the cook money we need to start thinking software that developers want to use an optimizing for that instead of pretending distros are I think that like we figure out where they should be in 1998 and to stand up and that's what we have done and it's and it's really a shame on nobody's and breach of an EU I suffer from normal users and but for word velvet for technical people you know you even know have fallen short I think and so why show example are we able to install every look at every single application and application started with some container on indices in a copy of the graph contains mental answers on why is it so tough to some start started from the 1st question you installed why we shipping box and that's that's what you wanted you know and if you work investors you do you ship of the latent image the box but I wanted excellent so you is got the vast majority covered all unfortunate for the rest of us were not had to my but nobody does anything was Dr. later and I know they said we have supported the duke right because of shifting houses are also no office and all that stuff can you tell me more about reduced and I'll tell everybody else and in the configuration or also no you build a given here for killing from the Protestant on video so all these things happening out there in the real world
I mean this is another example of what 2 example on top of 1 of them is this shaft has a think along about packaging where what the users bundle everything up and shipped from pretend industry doesn't exist basically which means we have failed time if they have to go that far we have utterly failed in our purpose of an opera but should not just be judges rate or Fedora strained but is great but when is great and people in the real world after on stuff across multiple this shows but we're not talking to each other have we come here once a month once a year and do it and we go home and mostly done and I've been on this list that really that Oracle the distributions list for a number of years a I don't actually remember when the last post was so hopefully some of you go on and subscribe to answer collaborating older more if that was the only thing that happened as a result of the sort of Uriah the and so you know you got chapter things and then just keeps coming up a remember with the 1st call the practice and they a screw package managers entirely which to do so ourselves so but there's more and more companies going away on shelf isn't 1st examples not the last example of design and and this anomalous because it's not everything right the ship the entire application stack all the way down to and including Ruby itself so they're not in using the system be installation and we failed another example is F. P. M. of the pen and the top 2 instances for various levels of profanity so with the 2nd tier being package managers and that's all sins were people in the real world you have to build packages and even want to integrate from such odd time what that that had to write their own solutions want to build packages can such painful experience and so at the end does is you unpack a tarball below on solid and then 1 of PM a generative ever rpm for i'm because people have so far at our and the stuff we've made it too difficult we haven't thought enough about the barriers to entry to creating a package because we meant to focused on making experience perfect for the experts thank
you and you know what else is happening out well the lot of people who don't even bother making releases them and make a tagging get sicker cloned from get haven't run time and this is the fact that I see people shaking their heads I don't like it you don't like it but it's happening and so we have to deal with some people are doing this stuff again because the experiences so painful and what we are optimizing for what's not what developers why do today when optimizing for use entry into writing packages and creating packages of 1 of our optimizing for people need to run stuff across multiple distros when optimizing for people who you need to do configuration at what a configuration management and who were sick of editing text files configuration files and immensely um but we need to because the distress becoming a relevant there's there's a lot going care and in fact it's from among them in the highest and of it's it's actually kind embarrassing that because Windows system but also the stuff on Windows package management has finally reached the Windows world and I just learned about this myself like 6 months ago and these are when those packages they all work they do stuff the repositories of and that didn't that wasn't the case that you know a couple of years ago it was like go install when and then you can use some kind of package management them but any notes in the 1 you is going form is they really understand people who like to click beauties they really deeply understand people like to point and click and getting the user experience and once they're bringing back to the developers her using this stuff so that there's a good chance that they will get this problem solved for we do last world and so you know what kinds of actions we need all that the few examples here and if you actually know the story behind them you know that 2 of them are at some level this object your package manager and and kind of proud of that the in the direction that I think it would be the on the 3rd 1 I think it's actually talk unexhausted some point it could all be check it out as a really really interesting ideas on in terms of where we need to go with the shows and and so you know when need things like everything is ephemeral on you don't need to care about package managers or you know as in in the case of from the browser we we solve that for you see them in to think about it and we'll just keep all the data you can tell us everything the the core OS is really interesting idea it's it's super minimal system is designed for the cloud of it's it's built using Portage which is reduced package manager but nobody who knows who runs it knows that because inside of course come if you care packages you just use Dr. and and again it's all sins were the sort of look at what you actually do they want to use things like Dr. than like your package managers on if you don't make a package manager did experience for them they you or and then go to start installing random stuff using show from the bus and and you in the language of the pack manager perhaps on and this is something you have to do it's it's not mandatory for distressed matter yeah it's not mandatory for them to succeed and if they die it's OK nobody else is going to care but if you and I want to remain relevant we have to keep up with these things are happening on and yeah 1 of 1 of the reasons for this text I'm not sure if you can read it but this is key phrases is used doctor as a package manager pressure at the top of doctors not package manager is know anything about tendencies all you do is you write this this doctor file scripts and in that sphere here run something like a young men stole xyz and that's the concept package manager stop when we think about the way people actually use it they don't care about that you mentioned they don't really care about even about things like eventual consistency what configuration Item does for you and that's when you start up and running on land and this you go check out all these if you haven't yet because these are the kinds of ideas that people want to they're on the score thing is just going nuts people want because it works in the way people want to work today only does things like uh of L and these go of course it goes out of the the that's the Chinese-language language ever and since node so you use go ahead with this sort clustering DNN using the wrapped up in hence consistency of configuration data across that C on every single insulation and that space and Dr. and these are the technologies people are interested in using people want to stop people from so we need to be there for them otherwise the the pixel aspect here and bundling is great and and 1 thing that's really key in that most of us haven't done yet and so as those which is really cool is atomic upgrades the source of some off of the bets only everything's up their wants and serve breaking halfway through the process because you you have libraries the changing integrated everything depends on the libraries that and we've done that forever and we started fixed and but data did and so it's not mandatory for us to succeed in this they will and so what kinds of
things we actually need so we need to understand way when you to be have some kind of insight into what's happening inside those models so that we can integrate with them and understand what's there and understand if there a security volatilities in the 27th version of the web and because that's what's happening out there right people are bundling and things like you would like go open as a cell in and just mean your library and it's being bundled so many times you no idea and that's not going to go away but will and so we need to do is responses to you understand those bundles an integral part of an integrated with the language little package managers and integrate with things like talker and things like that right on and some destructive doing some of that but almost nobody's doing all that and you know sort in ways that people expected to work if you wanna get more developers and it's not necessary the year community stay healthy or growth it's final checks nobody else can occur on a limited you agree with configuration and management why not it's a better way to deal with soft on what's ordering were in this world of past where you know that server where there's is named you know pretty and he carefully to maintain it an agreement and I figure it and spend yeah I strength flux box for a long time ago and how many hours even a spectrum and then use you have no idea and actions of this and other things that have to be in set screw on my desktop environment and installed and forgot about it and now I run to applications a terminal and web browser and I don't care about what else is happening over there and so this this this difference in world views it between you know the developers running us and us on and the concentric and what system-centric we need to think about what's in the middle it's applications from an admits thinking about the applications that people want use and run on and and live there instead of living a systems or the time and and maybe will get along and so I'm about 5 or 10 minutes shorter which is great because I hope that generates
discussion on through time and you can hear me up on our your Twitter or of 1 of my 20 different e-mail addresses were really do questions to yes yes questions now as well of course thank you region in the inclusion reunited thank you very but that's a good the the but with the there was renewed for the video I think you the silicon Steinke spent making it tools like due due and OpenStack he because they designed to some of the kids example this problem were yet but you do is that of those around anymore but here and again that that results from the people real world after on and deal the stress that chain so maybe can solve a problem and a you know things that drives me nuts about self on general as annotation of and you know it I'm sure it would not be a huge amount of effort to add more data transport G of the probably the biggest issue would be getting a mark for offices OK so that's Synote take a look at it and sent key it's not just a specific the the thank you this could be in the national data and
company from ends so 1 of the difficulties of the packaging software the comes from multiple sources where to place files and worry about where your thoughts on then the file system hierarchy standard then what about this should be doing about binding to integrin rethinking its but I think that features for it and I like you hear it that's another 1 was things their words maybe you know something the roughly 10 years ago people decided it was good enough and I was mostly lot of all other ways of understanding because again it's useful to have these kind of things like consistency it's actually surprisingly hard course and figure out where to look at something even after reading and so on and in fact that's part of our requirements restricted opposites figuring out like which subdirectory Evora area actually supposed to put certain things and it's it's not as clearly as you like the yeah on but it's definitely something that's useful fidgety wheelchair insofar as we feel it makes sense or is up to the with current standards but the problem of these things that you know Governor 10 years ago and at that very few changes in some of the ways I think it's been picked up again I have to go somewhere and buildings grade of in ought to happen with it is nobody's non-destructive although of a reader and that's the problem we need to build tools that encourage the behavior rather than writing long documents that tell you the the some of the some of the semiring is really developers of the problem and the men out of a generic problem users are never the problem it's always your fault it's out with my fault but to the ordering off and 80 user devil's advocate freeze but a lot of the things that developers still what do is because they want to treat each year the operating system is 0 and little playground and assume that nothing else but their application exists which is 1 of the things that is problematic yeah I mean you know the fact the matter is these these are the users link to whatever they feel like doing of it is a matter what we want them to the but there's gonna go and you keep running model data whatever well 1 of the 1 of the problems that we have is that is actually there to completely different in many cases categories of users that edge blurring little with some of the Dev up stuff but you get the users were developers who were who want to build all this list to colleges want to whatever's in a package management for that system they wanted and I get out there quickly but then you also have the I have the other side of the equation which is that the players and although they are almost entirely distinct in the i in the real world right now you got that you know the united OK before we keep going with this some sort of not on other slide on Slideshare about this exact topic of this talk 3 years ago and so go check it out I will now but the made my point is that in the real world you you know when you have these cool technologies that you might be able to use but if you want put them into a business where you you know you where it's going to be the at the time it that the difference between making a million dollars and losing a million dollars in stock changes traits for example
are fly-by-night bundle that package with a with a with known vulnerabilities is not an acceptable deployments site and so that's a place where the distros are much better at it but we can convince the developers of Derek not producing something that people use that can be deployed to clearly right there are irate about the I'm so at the touches Solon was found as developer do I I don't care about my security updates find packs she's a doctor so I show my miconazole bubble and it's got bunch of dependencies with another double but then you say there's there's traditional classes so I don't want my end users to be by that the did expose just because I didn't care package management so here's develop provide you with the right time and that's you have an interesting quandary is that people care about you know what's been happening is that a lot more of the other as thrust upon the users rather than the the creators of the software I mean there's a lot of strains now there is that even bothering to achieve security releases on our security issues still not commit them and and but there'll be any you know sort of working with uh searcher what have you do this stuff the to 1 more that that and and how can and mutant institutions help to feed those containers some I think it's not through some of the things that are brought up which is and and the smear distributions thing been you thing for a long time so I'm not sure if the pressure specifically asked for that reason of thank you for the great marketing opportunity and that's the other people for a certain flexibility and a lot of different things of the containers results of containers on and you know most of the vistas are not good being installed inside a container right now and and so you know 1 of the things that just you and the number of votes X package managers is what you solve things into a prefix where you don't need the full system on statistical model and so you have packed management even on a system with a link here on I think that the in 1 of them in the of the things like using an amateur this thing over you know how the user must package management in the home directory and that's that's an important direction of not because that's an interesting use case in itself but because it deals with other use cases like like the doctor thing the C can get some little package management within every single container this contemplar secure templates to yes I agree that so usual rejected yeah the a picture of a region that might and and the 1st thing you do not have a job the funds monitors