Frontier of Freedom — The State of the Deepweb

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Frontier of Freedom — The State of the Deepweb
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Discussing the future of Politics, Security, Crime and Dissidence on the Deepweb with Joana Varon (Coding Rights), Jacob Applebaum (Tor Project) and Heiko Rittelmeier (Bund Deutscher Kriminalbeamter). Presented by MOTHERBOARD.
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up in the
air thank you thank you for the introduction thanks everyone for being here um some I am gonna play the role of introducing the panelists as we had to switch around a bit due to the balanced like um and I'm gonna start right away with that and after that I am going to briefly introduce the topic may be for the people that are not so familiar with what the Deep Web isn't all it's assets and afterward so we're gonna jump right into this discussion which will hopefully be very fruitful so here we have like a little my who is from the and they come on the Web 1 coming out on of which also is a union and he did make it to come here even though it was a bit of a struggle to to another union action this week and he does not represent the account how by and sitting here even though he does work for the UN carbon just to sort of clarify that because the website was updated sort of late and is a teaching I t a forensics and to FIL law-enforcement agents and also from the runs the website computer with troop as a as another project I get to inform about all things uh cybercriminal really have a 7 year next only have Jacob Appelbaum from the to project and and as you probably are aware was introduced a couple of times during this conference and has conferences so when it keep this real short I think if you don't mind and and then we have the John overrun who was switching in for any recognized to unfortunately can't be here because she had to leave already as as she has another day that she can't take due to the trains not running from but join that is a very new member to be a deeper let uh I think assigned last night's which
is which is great um and we're going hear about what the the blood actually isn't a bit
um on another note she
um is from Sao Paulo and a lawyer by training and that tiki by itself that the self-taught techie um which is a great combination I think and she does know quite a bit about some the use of 4 in Latin America and his teaching of the use of encryption technology and so forth but to
dissidents which some gone really interested to hear about and also about the the the aspect of women in the deep Web which says something that the deep let deep sort of represents so without further ado from and and trying to start the presentation there we go um have 2 or disclaimers to make
a bear with me if you want to know what the Deep Web is um I'm gonna keep this really short but just to have everybody board and the 2nd is that would be yes it is a gray area and yes i have to stick to stock photos of service for some reason um but I will be able to fill your order but what the selection is so from the deep web is a term that basically means of sums up all the UN index sites of the internet which is quite a bit more than commonly assumed and there are different sort of subnets to that which 1 might say that can be private service it can be hidden
services through some through the Tor network that can be accessed with software like the Tor Browser very easily um the can also be just a private domains that no 1 sort of knows about um en yes that's what it is that what it most commonly is assumed with is that which is drugs brought on the deep Web um ball on the
documents and this is from a recent drug bust in like sage them by a guy called the shiny flakes a 20 year old who ran his own business on the deep web and for 2 years um until police caught with 3 and 20 kilograms in his children's living
room and and uh then they put this on his website some which was a very
rare occasion and in of the pleasing in Germany having a um big success here of law-enforcement success and some of in and this is what you
sometimes do see as well this is what happened after the international collaboration of water pool FBI DEA uh cooperation onymous which was the biggest uh seizure of hidden services to
date and last November which led to the shutdown of for example simple to some but nonetheless there are a lot of other darknet markets do remain online after that um and this
is a map that we've recently made
so you can really see that so it's the so places where a darknets uh crime investigations led to in Germany you can see it's only quite a handful and for some reason it does not accumulate in Bavaria and Brandenburg not I don't know what that means but um yeah maybe we can talk about that later and and but that he would surely isn't all dark and there are other groups and 1 example that I came across this from a group of urban
explorers that um exploring the infrastructures of of underground London for example and this is courtesy of really Garrett this picture and his crew because testing is only illegal for 6 months and they have their own some Deep Web site where they have their at the pictures from their explorations which are globally by now and they have on there and after a couple of months after and sort of the illegality of the action runs out then they start to publish it publicly but I think this is a great example of a communication uh tool for a for a group of some yet people are taking on some photos and it's having and using the deep web for their for their endeavors on 2 this also creates of of the grade of collective called the deeper let which is an old woman called a collective and and sort of led by anyway commission fulsomely can't be here but we have a really new assigned member as you know um and they made a movie which I am going to show you just 2
minutes of if this were extracted and that can sound to the videos well please there is something about
the internet that isn't working anymore and
maybe hasn't worked for a long time and maybe never works the way I thought it did the it
now I grew up all with the
internet very much evolving with me socially and it's only been more recently that I feel like the ideas and control the Internet have drastically changed and there's this awareness of those who you are online can be found out in fact you're always a lot
of people see the Internet as like the last free frontier but
that's totally not true were so depending on corporate infrastructure at this point the infrastructure is something that sort of designed to be ignored and it's something
that people tend only notice when it's not working and in some
very literal physical always and and other kind of more abstract way is there something about the internet as it is right now that is not working at
all uh uh
this week I would really like to try and figure out what that thing is
and maybe figure out what to do about it and I am feeling this is a group of people who might people
helped in that let me stop right here this arm and then I think so
what deep level did and was they a uh communicate and VI VI encryption technologies and some
days set up of I think a 2 week residency in in in in the that space in New York uh when they started coding and programming as an as an all women collective and what
the question than the questions they ask that I find really fascinating are on a more conceptual level but I think they are really important because as we all carry the internet with us all the time it's not something you
know into anymore which the deep Web still sort of is it something that is really easily accessible but it is a space that you have to actively enter even though that the barrier really low from looking at looking at the traffic that that goes through the deep web that might seem differently because of what I can say for example on the board on the website that that I run with them on Vice the tech website we have around
now that number probably is incorrect but it's hard to tell but it's around 3 % of the traffic and that comes up through the through for example 12 browser and other other stuff like that so this is a really low number I think especially for web site that does cover Deep Web topics and then it just
gives you an idea of some tall small the percentage of users compared to the rest of the Internet is even though the number of of content in there is actually much broader than that of the so called surface where some also as a set that that the web is no dark and recent numbers the spatially support that and the researcher and found out that
that 96 per cent approximately of the traffic that uses that for network does not excess the so-called hidden services which are these services where I was sort of in the legal and activities most of them are are based on happen
so this is a really small percentage only even though another number from that research suggests that there are 3 thousand of those student services and service may be on the place where for example so them would be hosted um the it another example of Creative Technology at uh and and creative uses of the deep
web is this intended Nietzsche by a japanese art group which was here in Berlin them whenever he is a good transform yellow festival and what they did is they sort of brought it back to the analog space again and the motivation was found to be able to sell like and you do on these . net toward capitalistic markets in a weird way too so that would be not allowed to lapse that would be excluded from appstores and so forth but not necessarily up from morally questionable but
them as we all know the standards can be sort of weird on places like the like like
iTunes and and then meeting of a bit make who spoke here yesterday who didn't awesome project I think and it's called the it's a dot net shopping bot basic basically that went
on a shopping spree on dotnet markets and brought this is ecstasy I think the fake and Gary and the sneakers com snow figure during this paper some sneakers and some other less useless things but the point that they actually proved and it was approved by court that the legality of the space is pretty on pretty much
unclear up until now and there but was not sentenced even though the ecstasy was seized but nothing else was so am am I don't even know that they spot the speakers last nite someone know and and so yeah I think this was also at the great project and as we are sort of are here to discuss it from from different angles I just want to dive right into our our discussion maybe ask you to switch to the regular screen please and it's as the 1st question that to Jacob
actually I'm when he started developing and 4 to a project what was
your motivation and looking back at it's what you make out of what the depressed become that know I feel addressed some related questions
on the whole set of actually is but I think that you know we talk about the deep where you have to remember that word generally referring to UN index content and it's often people can folate hidden services are torrent services where that and actually Tor hidden services are only geographically hidden usually that is you don't know where the physically are the world but the fact that you can open for Rosa and go there also means that search engines tend index them which is how people find it in the 1st place it's more Facebook is actually the deepweb right that's the way that you can't freely index and is in a walled garden controlled by corporations that decides it wants to play by a different standard Tor hidden services or instrumentalization of the freedom to connect in an end-to-end where where you have the ability to share content and you have the ability also interview that content not nearly as a consumer but also as a producer and it's the freedom to connect in peer-to-peer way and part of the reason I started to work and for not just a program but to run a Tory layer which was the 1st thing that I did with store and was precisely because I care about the freedom to connect and the freedom to connect in an ephemeral manner where I'm able to very easily share information and where I'm able to do that in a way where it won't come back to haunt me where I have ephemerality in my thought process that that is an original reason and so if we look at this concept of the deep web I think we really should look at the corporations involved here and I think they're actually the largest defender of that Facebook is a huge offender about the content on Facebook greatly exceeds all of the and services combined probably you don't and with a very large exponent frightening it's like ridiculous how large the content and so on so I think it's very important that we actually deconstructive you know this from an individual perspective as well it doesn't matter what I started to work on to or what matters is that each person has a right to connect and each person
has a right to share information in a secure way without an intermediary unless they agree to help you do it in a safe way and I am I think when you look at the number of soft for usage for example after the snow revelations Sweden globally see an increase their from looking at that do you think that's a great development are you would you be happy with that which you wish there was more on the what you make of that and what you think where will it go but I mean I think that in an ideal world we don't need to right in an ideal world the Internet works in such a way that you have anonymity or privacy by design so that like to see is that we build anonymity technologies into everything that we do and we don't need to have something like work at all that would be the ideal world but since we don't live in an ideal world I think it's important that people have access to the psychology and that it's built into for example every cell phone every laptop in the trusted computing base and I actually think that that's an achievable goal from the there have been computers the ship the before ready for the movie nice is you know when Eric Schmidt has gone out in public and said that if only there was some way to you know blow the whistle on a list of networks you know if if virtually in every 100 device you know that would be available to you know of million hundreds of millions of people overnight and it would be great if people also participated in building that infrastructure that is part of what makes the network possible is that it's made up of people choosing to help from the network so I'd like to see more people doing that of course but ultimately we shouldn't I think you have to have specialized knowledge to have fundamental liberties should shouldn't need to know that you have rates for other people not to violate them to the um and maybe some you can explore a joiner on on the situation of dissidents using using toward give us some example of
your of in daily work there because I think that's really important aspect so as a just say node that ID is watching so who had the intent of argumentation less power but that is amazing I'll describe out from there was a so but vacuum
resume after is no then I started to do this the security trainings and and in the 1st term calls that you open it strains journalists started to show up in was
amazing there was mostly women showing up to know about how to spell tar and the how to use that other encryptor tools and then the context in Brazil changed a bit before the World Cup is said to have protests and audience of those so as this disk is 2 trains become uh the voices of dissent there were criticizing the but criticizing the link breaks down when we have in Brazil as well and then the point that I want to make is that the because of presenting and deep where mentioning drugs and so on but it's also a space in which we need to think about this freedom to connect this freedom to to promote Ottoman the voices of dissent um if if I go outside resume is still in Latin America in Mexico in Colombian using now in Ecuador is getting harder and harder to criticize correction to put information out about corruption about human rights
violations from the states or from how drug gangs and so on so these guys from Mexico is a and association of media some and the outlets and the NGO splits so by a have a link page and make my max fully that's not very common in the region and it was already at push later Journal is that supported by lowering the main media were fired so I need to think as as
space as we have we are living in a space in which the state is so good I use the terminology of the Pueblo Dr. web this superficial way and it's not safe and if you wanna be a voice of dissent if you wanna and and discuss some issues are even if you are a teenager figuring out what I your sexual preferences and things like that so in this superficial where this is starting to so so
perhaps we need to go and learn these things because it's what Jake said have had the freedom to connect is going that way stop here but I think this is something that we are seeing globally we do know of people of them homosexual people in in here and that only communicate through the
tall browser and we look at the recent lostness again you can totally understand why and then they they tell us that they sit sit next interrogator and not having used brothers privacy technology all the information about their lives on the table so and this is 1 example we have the example of cereal or some of for example so please like Belarus where on journalists and activists sort of collectively use on the Tor Browser for all things they discuss and information of the excess just by default on so yeah I think that this definitely is a very very valid point and very important situation when when you're teaching people and and activists and dissidents what is the what what do they say are they and yeah are embracing it happily or are they and what do they find it very
difficult or some of the other but a surprise that this exists if you talk to younger generation maybe that has sort of grown up with the existence of the social web as we know it now stuff the at least in Brazil in my what when I do this security training so I am a lawyer so I bring day legal part of it and then my colleague Lucas loose and moreover hacker teaches the technologies and so on so we you 1 teach this does security always in the context as so people know why why they would use it or not uh and that's how we
also did a illustrated guide and radical 19 res you it's it's called protest those that are and there was emerging ego information and an additional security information for people there were going to the streets and um and the level of adoption changes is all about attracting model Indian to know I also depends on who you are and what you're doing people
get more interested but what's really happened is that um we started to engage people there we're going to the trains in uh least mailinglist where uh like building a community that is abating privacy and security is seen receiuing we've other friends at spending total cliques in Latin America because it's a lot might is not like here that you have a C C C for ages is still a young community started to understand those 2 but very important and very yeah deviating creative because it's also if you go to Mexico it's is a matter of life if you have as safe communications are not journalists are cute and give not in the room or her hair highest and try to no so it's a bit of a matter of fact checking model the and I go over to my and maybe we can get you into the compositions well when was the 1st time you heard of the deep web thank a client time ago thinking the told me to trust the trust trick thank you just set up in the ideal world we would need talk yeah and I would say in an ideal world we would need need police and what we'll really even in this world that I put about we we don't have an ideal world and we we there are different ways to kind of interests and different kind of of point of view and the problem we know the whole problem is to get this altogether to of the that's the kind of agree when what what what is necessary what is not necessary what and what should be done by the end of present of many problems problem if it was necessary for distance fall upon the degrees of and you know I really have a problem if you don't all Croxall little if there are weapons sold a little different things so they tried to form of things like don't forget terrorism known all along so
I have ever arisen of would of mention because terrorism is the trust only 2 of and so that's the only thing you can correct so if you use the same person person in each of these is if they are in your opinion the terrorist or freedom for the it's not so for the so all terrorists that its sum all form for this not at this point it's a lot of years the uh I that's really friend and get a get going maybe go to and what what will be ready question that's not that's a really good point i being whatsoever so that in by having can repeatedly so people on the Internet no voice makes forgetting we fired from my job buddy the person in the back way also happen to agree with is saying that just as you characterize terrorism as a political issue 1 may
also and I would also say that drugs are a political issue and that is what the person in the back and I happen to agree with him about that actually and we legalize marijuana in the last state I live in the in in the United States in Washington state we realize the marriage and marijuana in the same day because it is a political issue of both of them are political issues as health Colombian have to
agree on that to a few that have some we want to do is go back 1 step at maybe and it actually does fit this this this uh this is this marks and if you look at them the way that for
example and the the Tor Browser and the deep . net market sort of a really hard to to 0 and have followed by law enforcement is is another reason to change politics there some and I mean in what way would you do it like if you see that drugs are sold and markets and men impossible to know that this is like the war on drugs is impossible to win and it's may be getting even more impossible to win some you don't you have to sort of adaptive all the and hot and dense hot gender question I think so because it's all of the role of a really political question regarding the prox but if if you see where we're we're finding that only a proxy of finding every kind of crime and the after all the crime is at the end of today and some kind of communication issue and the legal us about it's OK there and if you need less trucks it's OK and if you legalize different different things so it's Sunderland sunny questions it's a kind of it's it's it's kind of a political agreement in the society what in what do most people want or don't most people want that's
about it again we sure don't have this debate regarding the deep web that's what you saying maybe maybe we can maybe we can
come here but from you how it actually changes the way law-enforcement work sort is changing it or is not changing at our universe colleagues aware of what was the weights is short-changing call so we see a growing number of of criminals using toll using all of different analyzing services and it's a good thing we have to to the up to them and so this makes a lot of my father gradient
and in most of cases today we don't see a solution to this are you Tories and then to investigate crimes you all know but I mean in in when you
use when you when you talk about using Tor when people use toward you have to use torture investigate process lot so you're a Tory using your saying yeah great but endorsement everybody that I have that's I mean I'm I'm think it can't excesses of of all exactly of this and then tested with i mean in a sense so you're saying that in order to do your job as a policeman you need this anonymity technology and that makes me a minute to for all of the edges on the room this of this strange thing but I'm happy to hear that I mean
it actually makes me happy so that there's for sure the case that if you need to use torture do your job I'm glad that towards exist for you to do your job that makes me really happy it's a firstly we hear
of conflicting things in in a perfect world we would need a police etc. I agree with you about that but here you are your Tory user and I'm glad that when we make 2 rather that your job is possible but you can operate on the anonymous Internet that makes me really happy and even though some cop somewhere where she the dirty cops beta protesters not you those cops some of those pet cops there used taught to and that's the price we pay sometimes bad people at badly with the 2nd to but you're acting with this technology and that makes me happy genuinely I'm not even getting a genuinely thank
because for example the majority of documents
lead over the Tor network expose crimes part of the purpose of WikiLeaks for example with having or services are globally sir secure dropped is to be able to inform the public and we need anonymity technologies to do that that's an anti-corruption technique which sounds strange but I think people expect me to do not want to law enforcement because I like anonymity but that's that's false it's very important that in order to fight corruption that we have structures also the fight the corruption 1 structure is people power and 1 of the people powers that we provide an anonymity network that can even be used by the police to fight that and if you would find ways to get all those illegal markets sustaining Sharon's trample on training of those same brought something weapons for KB evolved across the can we agree on weapons least that that otherwise we would find technologies to keep out of the nearly perfect eyesight so
I would totally agree so for example heckler in court is that each k but that that's a German company right come home home many of those letters suppose result about 2 or in Germany I could my guess is the majority of weapons that
the sold in Germany to Middle Eastern dictatorships as sales of almost refugee here in Germany so it's slow but steady for me to say but there sold without anonymity technologies if the problem is moving weapons the what you need to some companies and that you might look at that so no other weapons to a lot of roosters people at thank you at the root of it the problem child ography is not that you can see it and that
you now have evidence and I hadn't really severely criticized for what I'm innocent acts of that in any way it that someone can see that there is an epidemic of people committing harm against children is obviously a problem
but you cannot ignore that that epidemic exists and it is better that the police have access to that so that they have evidence so that they can actually track those people down and get to the root of the problem and what is the root of the problem it is not an entity the problem is people raping and abusing children that is actually the root of the problem and so just the same way that the Polaroid camera was not the problem neither is for the problem is people who abuse children and that is a systemic social
issue and for that you need international cooperation and you need evidence of the crimes so that you may track it down so in this sense toward even in the most awful cases actually can be used as 1 of the things that gets us toward a solution that solves the systemic issue
robot this at the same time it keeps anonymity of the of to craft a criminal it absolutely can but they make mistakes and you can catch them and also shows evidence of the victims who can then have redress for the crimes when they come forward on their own if you hide it you don't solve a systemic problem if you expose it you know that you need to go searching for the systemic routes and you need to radically find that it may be the case that you have to take drastic actions and it may be that some criminals some of the time will get away but it is absolutely the case that it will not be possible to ignore the real core issue a lot of people tried a spherical it's a problem that you can see it or to problem that they're sharing it need is but that's the minor problem compared to people that are actually hurting children and I say what you think of the children for once in return we always hear this in the opposite direction you know let's get rid of anonymity because I think of the children but getting rid of anonymity if you remove the anonymity you don't actually help the children and in fact you take away 1 of the only tools that available for free for children to protect themselves on the Internet as well so if we remove this tool we remove your ability if we remove this tool removed everyone's ability the people that we discussed for example in Mexico and they're not going to be safer for a move that anonymity and if this a a cartel in Mexico could remove the anonymity because there was a back door for example they could also hunt down your undercover agents and killed just the same way so we can't
factor we have to address the root of the problem and the root of the problem is abuse of children and that is a social issue that we will not solve technologically but society and we will have to do that on a global scale and that means we have to respect children's rights and part of those rights in this case are very clearly being violated so let's work to track down but not by compromising anonymity system moment at compromising the few that 1 way it would be just should just blocked the soul such content in below it can just go 1 thing for the 1 thing for the colonists and no notice we get resource I respectfully
remind what I'm early finish but there is not 1 of the things in the so if this is an important topic right we cannot sensor this content because the nature of the freedom to connect means that if we put a person in between 2 police the content it means for example that all of these different kinds of content that we will see all of that content will fundamentally the question so for example
here this is a very important issue and it is a serious issue I take it very seriously but the Tibetan genocide perpetrated by the Chinese government is initially they would like to censor and for them it is a hot-button topic if we build and censorship into system psychologically machines will simply enforce that censorship indiscriminately for whoever controls those technologies and it will be done in a way that will not simply be about typography as you know from the censorship list here as you know from lots of history examples actually about surveillance and censorship and fundamentally the solution is not more surveillance more censorship is to address the core the root of the problem I'm just
how quite so what I call red and Jacob about discussing here is sort of a jumping 1 step sum ahead of the
waging group toward situation may be again these calls have not really been made publicly but what you guys are discussing is the idea of them like what we had with the encryption keys having a database of the encryption keys that would be able to come in case of illegal activities access the content this is what you're referring to with the middleman in the in the Tor network um know what I was what I was wondering maybe to sort of get away from this discussion and get get turned on again um on a more on the on a more common conceptual level that the deep Web could could it be a place that defies the commodification of of uh social communication that we have seen some is this something that that he was seeing there and that he would be interested in exploring with the deep led
what do I mean by the internet as a place that you don't access anymore it was in the nineties maybe and you had cyberfeminism but exploring the situation of the different identities that you could that you could construct online and just says is of course the possible but of to me the deep Web poses a really really tempting some really tempting place here to to try and have this playful approach again the as you
mentioned just entering beds he planted the ghosts and who I know that they're stacked into play and this and that play of anonymity does I also need to make and but what I've been doing is more on the political side and questioning the anonymity in Brazil anonymity is forbidden in the in the context of freedom of expression constitutions for from 88 and that it poses a problem as well any doubt about are we had the now there was a lot because theoretically it's provided anonymity for people to exchange messages and it was called secret and and so some more operating in this level of debating the day and partisan anonymity for freedom of expression I I think in the context of this debate and what was said uh at stake was this balance how do you have law-enforcement and how do you protect freedom and into daily lives to date is that they are the age of complete surveillance we do need that immunity to an encryption to guarantee freedom and happy to my might make your work a bit harder but not impossible yet and we see that these tools are enabling also
had a line freshman work so well room I I I think this is important debate in just that 1 thing and the Special Rapporteur on freedom of expression is going to presented a report and next month in the human rights council is exactly about encryption anonymity uh in partnership with 4 other organizations as we did a report based on the region highlighting the situations in which uh and these are the concepts 2 constants are fundamental for protecting
freedom and rights so something to pay attention to those who have evolved in this debate so maybe Eddie would be the the right person to address here and as she's only watching I might just go and give you a bit of an answer there because when I talked to yesterday than it was always really hard to get out of 4 like what you guys are actually doing right now she's like it we have this group and from all the information is there we constructed then once it's there then we put it online and that's what they did with the deep lab and the deep I think that a really important statement about about the the role of women in technology and that was pretty prominently received actually and I think on the way they were able to communicate they just shows that the that the web to do that but I think it's not Annexes it's not by accident so from there this is what the class maybe doesn't what you'll be diving into a bit more information and so I guess I want to open the um and the questions to the audience and we can have a hand-held microphone and it has been jump right in that we have 0 height and entitled to of all the the panelists and then and especially user from the police forces uh because it's courageous of you to come here I know
for a fact that arguing against Jake even when your his friend can be really tough
and here I have been used as the gatherers was advocating violence in the last part of come on who was told payback and and I think we genuinely needs more people like you to come and discuss these issues with an open mind and with inability to think because this is only when we find common solutions to to real problems that we move on and I just wanted to make a quick comment here and the dividend of nosy semantics busted here and I think we have to 0 pulls disturbance of Deep Web dark web I think it is a semantic construction uh I'd always comes from but basically what it means is all that Google and a call to get so it's not it's neither deep nor Doc it is well we can exert of freedoms it is exactly the definition using the Jake at a low owing to computers to discuss with the protocol of your choice without intermediaries is the definition of the internet so what he called Deep Web is actually for the Internet of freedom that do seek is in net but not the the dock of the deep where another question or comment right up
front here we might call that D autonomous way thank you and my question would be
on the and if we look at the technological project progress and how um
surveillance programs can now monitor more and more of the internet and How do you think that can provide anonymity in the future when the somebody some energy would be able to basically store the whole Internet and analyze everything well I think that maybe the good news is that we don't actually
live in that world it is not possible to capture 100 per cent of the Internet traffic and storage and not for all time but reducing traffic analysis which the core question is what about traffic analysis I think it's a serious problem and part of what we need to do is to be
decentralized and re-engineer core Internet protocols to take into account selected based surveillance and we can very easily eliminate that may make anonymity of a sort
of a different thing so solely different problem but we can get rid of selected based surveillance even if you can recorded all the fact that you can have ephemeral cryptography will mean that recorded data has no value so that's 1 part of it but in terms of anonymity it's an open research question how to build a low-latency anonymity network if you have a global on active passive or global active adversary basically GPA NGA and those er those a really hard problems and so we don't have a great answers to that we know that for works right now and it works pretty well but it's not perfect nothing is perfect but it's it's the best thing we have right now so the thing I would say is if you're even asking that question I hope you will formalize your question and join us in trying to answer it in a way where we find an answer
that improves the situation for all of humanity mn
fat hello my question is as follows the 1st question elect understand better why cannot go index uh that the Board of citizens Internet uh since where this has been going on so if you could give it does it doesn't mean it has a tree that's the thing it's a misnomer Google and other search engines absolutely can index and other search engines do index got onions hidden
services that's that actually happens but the key thing is that people also inflate surveillance with index and so when services becoming cryptid in surveillance companies lose visibility they also tried to call that the deeper big they conflate all of these issues together but I mean the fact of the matter is stored in services are indexed by search engines having DuckDuckGo was 1 of the most public search engines to do that but hidden services are all the different kinds of anonymity right 1 kind of anonymity is geographic anonymity that is you don't know where you or a server physically is in the world on another kind of anonymity is a kind of anonymity were when someone tries to intercept your communications but they can't actually see who you're talking to on the
internet or what you're saying and so these different kinds of anonymity or conflated hidden services are only hidden geographically you can still go to the hidden service and web browser as he said other people said you just use your browser to go to a hidden service and that's straightforward and and indexing services do that as well and many have for a very long time maybe we can hear what what
the German police us to sort of happening are services that would be my question to you you all using told the that's what you want to hear that from there that that's sort of toys have been asked to investigate cases they all agreed all using toward the but kind of strange and I'll get to you ever tour to
do things like when using draw residue research the internet using 2 or no never so when you do an investigation you connect directly to Google and tell them all the things you're looking for so they know that you're police department is an isolated or the Istanbul because you're using a different anonymity network known trust normal the internet connection
so I would really like to encourage you to read and never thought this moment would come in and here it's here when you are using the internet and you connect from your office computer to Google use Google or your finger you know how good is the when you connect your computer to google google concede that your computer is connecting to it and it can keep a log of all of your investigative terms and know that you were police department is involved in saying looking up an address looking up a particular crime the the the cookies on your computer but also your log into your IP address I asked you what other don't think so because we don't know this a normal looking computer to connect to cool but whatever computer you users stand-alone long and so its own lying to link that but does anybody other than the police uses and it's just it's just you guys that use that same 1 beer and you should consult or other on
the computers and nobody knows what you're doing have and I really never thought the day would come when I would encourage this but here we are and I mean format mentioned for a moment that the NSA knows that computer and they want
to know whether or not you've uncovered say covert CIA agents doing something like they committed a crime you're investigating and you know it's the CIA and help and yet I'm like the rest of the time the German helps us yeah I so you're doing you're doing a job you're investigating the crime they can see the progress of that criminal investigation well they do mass surveillance on your internet connection they may not know your the police yet but they'll see the agent's name go through the selector you know the what is it 40 thousand selectors that Merkel has that she wanted to the German people so they'll see see those selectors and they'll see that it's tied to your police department if you use the Tor Browser the they developed I mean I have and I don't think think there there are more and different ways to normalize the
not not only using toward in the war how would you know how should we analyse ourselves as to way I think we don't do should we should discuss the technical terms here um the I guess we have 4 ways in do what the you have a muon the German police have anonymity and the user then that's great and so should we all have all power to the people all all anonymous power to the people here
who in them and little here and so just won't statement for a things a lot that's a policeman if the front and on stage and a lots all the people in the last slide of my question is and maybe we can have the same to and which is good for
torrent a police that for especially at 1 topic police a crime but you and say that it's a moon which area and FIL police internal crimes what do you think about using or if the police crime was discovered by the yeah using Tor for like to bring it into public because it's very also in Germany at the case that if the police is causing crime that you don't have an opportunity really to to fall so long to to focus on talking about internal investigations
or whistle-blowing you on OK right so we did get the questions from the public and in internal investigation into the illegal things law-enforcement it leaks about illegal police activity which you would wouldn't that be a great use case for I guess that's the question not possibly have been a good you think it would be the right
way to go to the proper authorities and not to open to the public just go to the In law-enforcement that is known for long In this case and then tell them and not not in the 1st place and public I think talking about to investigate like during the investigation
that was many and I think what is asking is is tell me if I'm wrong but to send up maybe and some can and you might want to say are you saying essentially would be useful for internal investigations for you to be able to talk to the authorities anonymously so that the internal police investigation would be able to not knowing you were they just get the evidence and know my point was a antacid exactly but my point was that you're going to the police and you have problems because of police crime only a 1 of hundreds of the kind of this announcement that the police will go to occur the 99 would stop before even in Germany so they will not open a case well I don't really know what the numbers of but but probably you know personally I think that if if I see please crime
and I have to to report it in the a proper way and that's not usually using for and reporting to the public and so on why not because of leaves the internal measures and work you OK you can do no better I guess what personally I think they will OK can we have a thing 2 more questions please
whom I have more or less technical question about exit node so I once wanted to start and executed by myself I wanted to on the next by myself on but I'm fairly a lot more problems and I guess in Germany and most of the western world states it's nearly impossible to 1 or both of us or exit notes for to walk this this problem for too and so can you tell us a little bit more about the structure of excitation that's what I would say is if you want to do that and you're willing to put in resources there's a group called for servers
thought that they actually have documented a lot of the legal situation of they have good contacts with lawyers in different countries there on toerags relays all around the world this really important because the Tor exit point is the last point made this very clear that what's that's the trial was was going to say he should answer that at request for the chemical microphone Timorese you look to the right and ask that your question it'll help but all all answer by saying toss servers not mad if you want to help run exit
capacity you can send them money for Bitcoin or donate time with them and they'll actually help to make that possible and it's useful there are lots of other organizations that do that noise region 7
Cisco has a thing called noise store and there's other organizations around the world that do it if you wanna run as an individual I think the best thing you can do is actually probably become friends of the people that would rate your house and because at least for me I've run a bunch of Tor relays throughout my life i've never had any trouble but I think that's because when they would go to read my house they looked at everything else and said we don't want to this guy off which is a separate thing
and you might not have that problem which is better for you by the way but but if you don't have a good relationship with those people you may have an acid visit but I think it depends because if the local police are using toward and this the that its iterates until they already know it's a waste of their time to bother you may already know that you're helping them so they really don't want balance is very contextually different like I wouldn't monetary eggs relaying say Burma that seems like a really poor idea in Germany I think it might be alright if you find a hosting provider that is OK with it there are several that were at your house if you wanted to but I would really encourage people to look at service on that and if you guys that all mob more it's just stand up for sale this guy here he's 1 of the most prolific really operators on the planet so that the bad guys responsible for like 20 %
it pride in think there in turn the camera on your rooms
are a lot of work but that you you runs at 20 per cent of the exist capacity of the of the entire Torah networks every single time you use the Tor network I think it's probable if you lose it if you use it for a few hours you probably have been helped by Moritz personally and the efforts that is set up I was just took over
a panel well you and I think we have to have 1 last question maybe to alone we don't we don't I got I was that can we have 1 question to join please it congress many women as well as I could we only busier than normal so should should raise come thank you of the and not just
use that have to answer it I think but I think it's an interesting you mention that at 1st that it's important to implement for and to make it easily accessible to pretty much everyone and injuries in L awareness and am I heard that you talked about implementing it so let's along a beach like at varying the sliding mean and also make it more attractive faster and the order tens of this for you by the time maybe it into a bodywork teaching at how attractive it is to the people you teach it to actually how let's that enter
question which is we have extensive plants and and and it's a long story but the short version of it is you should come and help us to figure out what it is that we're not already doing that you would like and I have a question for a job because I feel like it's ridiculous how many times I answer the question looting changes which is what is the thing that we can do to best support what is the thing that we can do to best support your work not just in the deep lab but in general and maybe even making it possible for anonymity to their rights in Brazil for example we don't touch the Constitution because the very basic political moments but having 1 that change the interpretation that they had from that and perhaps a there is not a complete anonymity doesn't exist is just some sort of so that anonymity and that's the
way we're heading but on the other question why I'm trying to do is also to create a breach of technologies yeah in in relating to bring people to to to Brazil to Latin America and exchange knowledge that and so if when it come to realize a nice phase with parties income teach technologies and Torrance so 1 there is a chance for that as well I knew how
yeah that Southampton that sounds tempting thank you
thank you everyone for being here Thank you algorithm I think you Jacob thank you Joanna thanks for being with us
I guess will stick around for good if you have a question