Panel: Better Hiring Practices for Fun and Profit

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The average American worker will have 10 jobs before the age of 40. There's a great deal of opportunity and mobility in our industry, and yet, our hiring process is anything but pleasant or streamlined. The hiring process is time consuming for both candidates and employers, but we can do better! Let's explore the ways we can improve the hiring process by writing better job descriptions, utilizing systems that free us from unconscious biases, focusing beyond culture fit, and using better (more fun) technical interviewing methods.
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Thermodynamischer Prozess Web crawler Building Arm Transformation (genetics) Software developer Information technology consulting Individualsoftware Product (business) Goodness of fit Strategy game Internet forum Metropolitan area network
Sensitivity analysis Group action Context awareness Code Multiplication sign Decision theory View (database) 1 (number) Set (mathematics) Open set Perspective (visual) Public key certificate Information technology consulting Dimensional analysis Formal language Expected value Different (Kate Ryan album) Ontology Software framework Office suite Data conversion Information security Descriptive statistics God Thermodynamischer Prozess Boss Corporation Process (computing) Arm Software developer Feedback Electronic mailing list Bit Maxima and minima Data mining Type theory Data management Message passing Order (biology) Self-organization Quicksort Point (geometry) Existence Service (economics) Online help Student's t-test Product (business) Power (physics) Attribute grammar Goodness of fit Hacker (term) String (computer science) Energy level Software testing Data structure Traffic reporting Hydraulic jump Dependent and independent variables Line (geometry) Vector potential Word Personal digital assistant Charge carrier Video game Table (information)
Point (geometry) Axiom of choice NP-hard Game controller Observational study GUI widget Code Multiplication sign View (database) Execution unit Online help Function (mathematics) Disk read-and-write head Food energy Code Information technology consulting Twitter Formal language Bit rate Different (Kate Ryan album) Core dump Negative number Energy level Software testing Software framework Data conversion Descriptive statistics Task (computing) Process (computing) Information Software developer Projective plane Interactive television Sampling (statistics) Staff (military) Maxima and minima Cartesian coordinate system Data management Integrated development environment Personal digital assistant Statement (computer science) Right angle Quicksort Freeware Spacetime
Point (geometry) Statistics Group action Momentum Code Multiplication sign Archaeological field survey Similarity (geometry) Mereology Estimator Goodness of fit Average Negative number Data conversion Traffic reporting Scripting language Thermodynamischer Prozess Process (computing) Arm Information Software developer Projective plane Planning Bit Type theory Right angle Whiteboard Pressure Spacetime
Group action State of matter Multiplication sign Insertion loss Client (computing) Function (mathematics) Perspective (visual) Medical imaging Programmer (hardware) Estimator Bit rate Lattice (group) Different (Kate Ryan album) Ontology Core dump Arrow of time Data conversion 5 (number) Error message Position operator Descriptive statistics Area Thermodynamischer Prozess Process (computing) Software developer Feedback Fitness function Electronic mailing list Stress (mechanics) Staff (military) Maxima and minima Degree (graph theory) Type theory Order (biology) Computer science Self-organization Right angle Quicksort Whiteboard Arithmetic progression Writing Point (geometry) Observational study Open source Ultraviolet photoelectron spectroscopy Control flow Similarity (geometry) Student's t-test Code Field (computer science) Product (business) Twitter Data structure Traffic reporting Gender Forcing (mathematics) Projective plane Mathematical analysis Planning Plastikkarte Volume (thermodynamics) Cartesian coordinate system Spring (hydrology) Blog Video game
this and
and Oh and welcome to better hiring practices for fun and profit and
so we are here to actually solve the firing process intact once-and-for-all at we're never gonna talk about this ever again and if you did but uh before we get started I wanted to just do a little bit of a house clean up so there is of course the lovely rails Conf are hashtag if you want to comment about the panel but then also I'm going to be checking out this other hashtags higher rails periodically throughout the panel and to look specifically for questions or comments from the audience will still do it yeah and maybe like with 10 minutes or so before the panel are instead your questions but I did also wanna just take the time to get questions from the audience as a panel progresses and so I will be checking the higher rails are hashtag throughout the panel and then also you might also notice that the bottom maybe it's a little hard to read but it at all of our and all of our Twitter handles are and it down on each slide so if you ever need to and what I want a palace or something like that I feel free to do that so before the um for we get started let's just how bad it is an end to have everybody introduce themselves and I'll start answers a Korea I
am of the moderator of this panel i minus our Alison mentioned I'm super passionate about our bringing people into Texas can away and moves me to want to talk about hiring practices man we created and user shadeless hello I'm had a crawler so man the company is called CTO 2 we help out companies you organizational agility transformations and what that really means is we help company culture is not such and we talk about workflow we talk about process we talk about mapping talent and product and engineering strategies holistically end you and the
the in lieu of my name is just inherit and I am a developer a consultant and a teacher of doing that for my entire career 1 of those 3 also founder of the collective which is a suffer consultancy focusing on training and building custom software for whatever you might need arm them really hoping to with this company set good examples of good practices for how to do things internally in the industry which then can be shared freely with other people the that's why I'm here
the minimum this way i'm him other carriers I work at Milton in Atlanta Georgia and engineering manager that I work a little bit alongside the product but mostly work on true development and processes internally on our engineering team amazing so just against started and I wanted to have a bit of an icebreaker and I would like to hear from all the panelists and all of you are also welcome to join with the hashtag at higher rails if you want to share our was is the worst job interview you've ever had whether you were interviewing someone or you were being interviewed but it I have 1 my out of as my worst but it was very memorable I was interviewing where things here 3 persons start out and they had not done a lot of interviews themselves and they thought they should probably just still whiteboarding exercise and that's what you do in interviews and they were describing it to me and it was 1 of those questions where there's like buckets and there's red balls and black balls in them that they can remember how it went so every time it started I'd start trying to do something like when no no you pull it out and you do know a it is then you put it back no that's fine just keep going so maybe not the worst definite best all right so I talking assess about this last nite where I have a bunch of bad interviews known that I could tell and worse is kind of in the eye beholder from but I got 1 story thing works really well I was applying for a job at consultancy and you know you had Aleksandrovich a codon they're going to review it I got flown out to Chicago I'm sitting in a big office they actually had like projected the code up on the wall and the kindest doing cargo mob code review that like 4 5 people in the room and the kindest asking questions of overall pretty expected school review and answering questions or like code in there was a gentleman the back of the room at 1 point he kind of chuckled and he pointed it said what are you doing online 45 and I look at it is my look at 0 God so I have string in that string was interpolating a value and I call to ask on that value but also called to and from the string the power levels that sure there was a string but it 3 times and I was mortified I fix that he said OK good good good In the end after the interview was over he walked up whose themselves is like Ivan and Robert Martin and you a with our mine is going to show my age and I was in an interview I was working for a financial services firm and we were interviewing ADC sharp developer and indeed developer that I was interviewing which asked this 1 in 2 with from Cantor Fitzgerald what she was doing a 911 and why was she here the the seed Cantor Fitzgerald lost 105 people in the trade center bombings and they were her friends and she has been working in New York at the time and for whatever reason she had gone back to work that day and we were now in London and it was 4 years later and if you ever wanna see someone fail at sensitivity and entity in an interview that's the way to do it wow might drop of could be alright so let's get started out
with sort of like the 1st he's in the hiring process which is our job descriptions and we'll be talking about job descriptions from an employer perspective on an employee or potential employee perspective so she started how also do you write a good job description the the How do you write a good job description I think that the 1st thing is figuring out why are you writing a job description to begin with what problem is this new individual or individuals going to be solving and what of skill sets are at tributes to you not already have when your team In order to solve that problem and that the question you know but there's this idea of uh you know let's let's throw bodies at problems 1st let's figure out what problem we're trying to solve them white the skills and attributes to we need to solve for that and I think that those questions need come at the very beginning 200 I'm from my perspective as like an employer and has a developer who will be working with the people I intend a higher arm in my job description i want the candidate to have a very clear idea what the day-to-day is going to be so that they know what they're getting themselves into on I like to focus the job description on 1 of my expecting of them when they come in and what I expect them to be able to deliver on what time frames doing only 2 projects on and what how other Davies get what I kind of think that fits in a job description because that clearly outlines what the job actually is not just a bullet list of like acronyms out which do you could do that for a thousand companies a guesthouse different jobs in the and I'd really rather focus on writing a job description that let's someone know 0 this company is unique they do to stand up today in the upside down in or whatever yeah I'll just echo way on my other panels have said where I think focusing on what the person will be doing in this job is more important than what the previous experience was so focusing on you need to have already done these things might not be as important as saying these are the things that you will be doing another thing that we are at notion of art specifically trying to do more of it is to give an idea of why the organization around you is like the reporting structure especially since we are growing company and that's not always clear when you look at a job description like who are making a report to what sort of team MIT and beyond and how far away and i from people who can you make decisions have pass on my feedback so we try to get a really clear idea of what your life in this role at the and then this might be a little bit more applicable to larger organizations but how do you manage a different sort of requirements between groups because oftentimes you have an open job rack but this person is going to be shared among their new to 3 different teams and then there's like all these different sort of responsibility for impending manage those sort of different types of requirements when you have multiple groups involved do you mean if 1 person in a role will be wearing multiple hats I think you have to be very explicit about that I know that I have interviewed before somewhere and realize that I was interviewed 5 jobs maybe is that just 1 so and I think that's fine depending on where you are in your career and sort of investment you an opinion to on a new role but I think putting that up from either in conversations are in the listing itself is always ideal I think it would be helpful if that's particularly case to try to filter for people who get excited by something like that I know there are people who really enjoy having multiple ports in being a jump between different things they like the to go challenger-like OK this so I'm working on this on Monday in this on Tuesday while if you if you what someone is gonna have to do that you should let you should save a description like looking for someone who enjoys this type of this type of work or this type of workflow the so let's switch over to the job seekers point of view and and 1 vise would you have for those who are looking for a job and a sort of need help navigating and reading through job descriptions sort of almost reading between the lines the I don't want to sound like and play my work that I gave a talk at an altar constantly inter called jobless the minesweeper where I focus on this question diet are high level there are very common phrases that you will read that mean a very common thing so read a lot of them and ask good questions the very critical about what something that can sound fine might actually mean I know there's a lot of talk about culture that being a good signal that there might be a problem and there is lots of things along those lines so I would also say send job listings use think sound great to someone who's been doing it for a while they might help point out some of those things the it I had something really good and I lost whenever you see you have a little more and on some of those of specific words that might be a red herring for someone trying to decipher job posting some of the ones that I picked up on where sometimes uses really aggressive language that I tend to expect order maybe and all male team in England leaders kill the 24 hours and depression the injectors only applies yes definitely avoid the ninja hackers arm but there's some that I think are also find you just need to make sure you clarify what it means at that company things like flexible vacation vacation I might be creative it also means never take vacation because people kind of you know look askance you when you suggest the idea of taking a day off so again as not all bad things but I am things that are a little vague or a little too pointed sometimes a strict strict requirements probably shows that they don't really have a good awareness that there's security developers at common all packages yeah I think along those lines are it helps to look for the technologies they require and make sure they're not asking for more you experience the technologies existence so you see any those like need 5 years minimum react experience you might wanna go home and maybe they don't really know how this should get written on very similar you're saying I think I sit down I said ontology years as they're kind of like a postcode school getting ready to ramp up and the looking for jobs and I go through these interviews and it is kind of it's a game of like taking off boxes of like OK this is apostles so that it was the bosses of the negative and you can get a feel for it but I think it's the end the at things the pluses are like 0 process like I always tell the students OK look look for them to mention any agile practice or mentioned testing a mentioned their version-controlled stuff but it's not mentioned but they mentioned the ping-pong tables or a dimension certifications it might not be we're looking for in this in our community on but ultimately I think the job descriptions are there to make sure you have the job seeker no you're getting into so you have no clue the company is going to be like it will note you get there I guess and that's not really very helpful for you when you're trying to apply the different ways I'm curious are there any HR
or tech recruiters in the room right now anyone who writes job descriptions for a living I but it will be your very brave to raise your hands and we also want to highlight yet I so I was it every year forever and ever and I think that there is this great intention to make your company sounds so cool and fine because it's so competitive to get out there and you're hiring managers are breathing down your neck because they desperately need these people in you know damn it we just but new tag tag-wise anybody wanting to work here and and the thing is is that if you write work hard play hard free beer unlimited vacation with that's really telling me on it is i'm gonna work 60 to 70 hours a week I'm gonna work in an environment that may or may not be safe for me as a woman that identifies as a woman in that space and unlimited vacation is not the same thing as minimum vacation and that's it and that low proton minimum vacation is off some unlimited vacation is a sure sign that you're going to not be able to take it I've seen that over and over and small and large companies so really talk to your HR teams a year you talked here teams and see what is this really mean to us if you do have unlimited occasion you can say minimum vacation on our team 3 weeks a year right like I'm gonna applied that job so the right so to move things along I wanna talk about you once you have a job description of the you have applications let's talk about how to assess our your applicants tech ability I and I wanna sort of take that a little of time set the stage for this question out there was a great episode of the podcast calling this Emilia where they talk a lot about the mind and they did a study where it's called a white codes study and they gave people a task to perform and half of those people were told you're wearing a doctor's coat the other half were told that they were wearing a painters code and the people who were told that they have a doctor's code performed better than those who had were told that they were using a interest coat and I I often feel like how we assess tech ability and tag if I telling someone they have a doctor's code or apenas code we aren't always setting up people to succeed or giving them the best of environment to assess the tech abilities so the big question is and it's some easy question but will try to tackle it what is the best way to assess tech ability make them do what they're gonna do on the job this kind of my go-to arm so that depends a lot on the role as of recently I was hiring for my consultancy and ideas we have like a 2 step could challenge where the 1st 1 was they had to just of build this act out in any technology they wanted they had unlimited time to do it just give it in you're done I want to see their ability to do something that they have full control over the choices and the time frame and the methodologies and then made them out to a 2nd 1 were I dictated everything like the requirements the language framework how much testing covered it should be I wanted to see what the differences in the output from working with dictated technologies verses they can choose their own and because at my particular business consultancy you're gonna be doing both they will be able to greenfield projects but also be having the opportunity to like just use will be given to them answer you need to adapt that to your company right find things like co challenges things like bring them in pairing with them for a few hours for me personally as developer gives me the best insight into this person into how they work and how they think we've had a lot of conversation around how to do this because this is really I think 1 of the toughest things it's not as hard to find people that you like that you know it fit and your team and be a create teammate in general but to know whether they can come in and the the impact that you really need for whatever level you're hiring for visually tough on we are very reluctant to ask them to do work on the outside of you know their own work that they're probably already doing because not everyone has that that time but it truly is a great way to tell ability so what we have been doing and we've been very happy with from the what we've been able to find out the doing is we just ask for a a code sample and we try to frame it as best as we can and let them know that were not judging them on the code sample we just want a foundation for a conversation we are mn so we we ask technical questions by then we also just sit with their code with and we ask them yet I'm and two-time resources money was what some things you would do improve experiments so we try to work with something that they're because you get a lot of insight when you hear someone talk about could they've written and sometimes insight is they understand the code they've written and sometimes the insight is just so much that that you would get just from reading the code so we try to have a conversation like alive code review without us being critical necessarily asking guiding questions at all I see that it this way I'm in my mind I think it would have to write it this way did you consider that so we try to have this conversations while setting up early that it's not about the quality of the care it's really about the quality of the interaction around the case that we can get a lot of helpful information of I think of something else to take into consideration that I've seen and happen in larger companies is if you're hiring more senior engineers that might have the primary language that's different from your current staff and making sure that you have the right person interviewing and reviewing that person's code versus just another person was on that team who might not be as familiar with that language end it I don't know what this will be it's true or false statement of people on the head live in this room that I think the more seasoned engineer becomes the more has strong point of view they might have in their code is and what they're writing down and and that should be OK and so having someone who can just make sure that you have someone who's interviewing that person who's capable of understanding a that language and b that point of view and where that might be coming from because it's what could be a false negative may just be a point of view the that's the core rate point and I wanted a 2nd to see if we've had any questions from Twitter no so that's actually a great question and go ahead and we want to and this is due it but have you must inventory a teams existing skills the it's really hard how could I have to fly a lot of people don't do it like how many units of Ruby you have energy we have 3 you widgets are really 2 which it's a JavaScript 1 every act of who that is tough and on the size of
the team I feel like a smaller team I could pretty quickly will but an estimate of like AB my is three-quarters really strong full-stack
real developers 1 person likes job script and I would feel confident doing that spread but if I'm managing a team of 20 plus there be really hard to kind of get the nuances of what everyone that where there are what's the details I was like you could kind of self report that almost but you could you could get information pass out a survey have everyone sit down for 1 once they or no of but you're rails not just tell me how did you think you are you will be working here already if you wanna get out of 5 1 up there and then we can kind of look they'll say they're good at this now we can have an idea at least of the averages for accounting idea you could even look at get stats I would say it's probably easier to look at the negative space right if it's probably harder to look and see what you have on then to look and see where you're a little bit weaker so if you have certain projects that don't get good momentum or you have certain parts of the code base that just never get their attention or expertise in in their arm it's easier at in my mind at least especially when you have a larger team which are team is rapidly growing it's it's easier to see in me really could use someone that really knows that's or has a lot of experience dealing with this type of issue so I I would have a hard time telling you what our current inventory is but I could tell you some of our needs pressure I think it depends on the health of your team but doing a team retro when you're starting to look at workforce planning hiring an extra severe team bringing an engaging the entire group into the conversation about and that their skills their own skills and where there where they're really like to invite and where there they'd like to learn or were you know what they would what someone knew the team could bring is a really great conversation to get people engaged the interview process as well so I have a bit of a devil's advocate question I why do we even need to assess tech ability after a certain point like if you are a developer you've been doing this for 10 15 years that like at what point Jesus the move past a code challenger whiteboarding I mean to be very just has to know how much to pay them and you want to make sure that people with similar abilities are getting similar salaries so we have engineering matter that we use you kind of compare people we don't really want to say 0 person-years person B but just groups of people and what they should know what they should excite and where it's OK for them to have you things that need to be stronger over time so I would say someone can come in with 15 years of experience that not be able to contribute more than someone with 5 years of experience that they might be wanting a 15 year experience salary so that's my 1st and the good answer right so to move things like him actually you must get this question I am
a song about this are you had noticed in this the of applicants and this is a question I hear a lot from people saying especially the junior developers you know should I just printable interesse amaze and start dropping them off at companies because I'm just not hearing back I so how do you notice making everyone interested in that I think 1 of these so when I would teach of what I would tell my students is halfway through like the tire coworker Oleg OK here's the secret to be noticed when you apply for places on it's all horrible secret so when you never want here which is give talks and write blog posts don't just go to meet ups on the problem that is it's not a like that it's for everyone solution but it is a guaranteed solution if you're not just the person who sits in the back and you up but you say hey hi I don't of uh cucumber i can give a talk on at a local review need up that's going to make you stand out because hopefully the company applying for your town or also there that me up and they see you the 1 state not just the 1 applying something thing with blog posts at writing blog posts better like informative and telling a story or not what sort solving problems in lecture being back to the industry to build up a body of work in your name that speaks volumes to you that different you from the application might be applying for the same position if you have a technical recruiters who are good they're probably also looking at you get home and here AD can you've been contributing to the URI get heard and I see a progression for the 12 weeks in you're adding staff you're working in open source you doing you know great work and you graduated and it's 6 months later and you're working at West Elm waiting for somebody to pick up the phone and you haven't uh put forth any new coding you have and then working are contributing that that the signal and I think that given back in Romania opportunity well especially the Super Junior so 0 and we have about 0 minutes left and we still haven't talked about diversity and which I feel is a really important topic so I'll of just going out there and there's a lot of about firing diversely and a lot of people feel like it's not needed so longer problem and a lot of people feel like now it is something that we should address so why diversely important for companies Ch the I I mean if you go back to the idea of looking at this that edges of your team and what's missing if everyone has the same background you're going to have a lot of the same missing pieces so even from a business perspective having people with different backgrounds and different life experiences you get more those pieces covered so you can just build a better product on I I feel like this is an account I have to sell the the human value of having a diverse team and but the definitely get better coverage when you have people that you know different things for different reasons come down for me every team I've worked on that had a diverse group of people on it from different backgrounds different at ethnicities different genders on the products and the better in the end and we had we all grew more in the process because what you're saying you kind of learn from the the gaps in your own understanding your own perspective In that we filled out from the people in your team on and having those different voices with different backgrounds can just show dividends the whole company culture as well surrounded cultivate every 2 million guy had I think I am when we think about hiring diversity or diversity and we need to change our vernacular and then In the recent nonsmoker quick 12 days ago and you have good but I don't say if someone asks me I don't think I'm quitting smoking is a I am a non-smoker and smoking anymore which is helping me to not smoke anymore so instead of saying culture fit I think it's really important for us to start changing our vernacular and start talking about culture that is it worth adding to our culture it's much easier for us to connect that to hiring diverse and inclusive any into our teams and the organization that we have yeah and I could have others this for a long time so I will go on a rate but yes like culture fit comes from this idea of our culture is good now we don't wanna ruin it because a lot companies are proactive about shaping their own culture so they kind of let what happened to be the way it is in this given a break it all usually proactive about shaping the culture of the company and that means how can I add to this culture in a way that could benefit everyone on the team so I wanna before jumping into questions from the audience I want to touch on but the gender gap and injustice at this stage at there is an article of is that studied that Hewlett-Packard are conducted a few years ago and there was a Harvard Business Review article about it I can find the original study unfortunately but this study essentially found that women applied to the job posting if they near 100 per cent of the criteria were as men apply if they meet 60 per cent of the criteria and what I found really interesting about the analysis from the Harvard Business Review article is that they felt like what women felt was holding them back was more of this perception is it's not necessarily how they perceive their skill but I'm mistaken perception about the hiring process I think that's really interesting so the question here is do you agree or disagree with the student study's findings and what can we do to address it I totally agree with this and see it happen all the time stop putting so many bullet points and something 5 plus 6 plus a 7 + years at some experience which is really what you're really saying me might have 3 in the great so what do you mean what are you really articulating in that bullet point and maybe create narrative out of that rather than a bullet point because that is when I see happen on yeah I I don't know if I've seen as as much on the hiring side there definitely see it as someone who works with new developers and the community a lot where I have to do is basically direct people say you will apply to this job and you will interview and I get very like mama bearish about it and I only have to do that with women I've never had to pull a male friend assigned in like you can do it you can do this I have to sometimes tell them
I'm not sure I'm here quite ready for that whole but no I completely agree and both what you said is basically what I've seen as well and it is interesting to me because I think it goes go back to our 1st question about job descriptions and how we just hapless defaulted just laundry listing every acronym we think they might need to know in passing and for 1 person you know that might be 0 have you heard about another person might be going below that inside out I'm terrified of applying for position I don't know those and I think another thing we could do going back the jobs can answer but is try to list all the things that actually from a job which could be like there's a lot of jobs which start of every job you Jack involves a lot of things we call soft skills but those are never on a job description or with the order like I 1 1 the very like being able to talk to a client to communicate effectively with your team members are things that on those so we have a gender bias either way but they ground out the requirement other than just technical things people feel they need to know the great so I wanna turn it over to questions from the audience so I wanna take question from Twitter 1st of open it up for a community from other people here so as the the so questions the use of force and images that and how important is education versus experience how important is education versus experience like 1 of the can I positive experience is education to expand In in my background the I have a computer science degree and I am I think it has allowed me to nearly no that made other people feel less error and I did not have to feel that lesser staying and that's about what I got out of mandatory to to add on to that I don't have a computer science degree which account amount so you speaking but what that means is I've spent over the years of being a self-taught programmer countless nights reading Wikipedia articles should for no value other than I would feel dumb anymore when people with savings path so like I can throw out all these conversations about matters because they read them because someone said the hard and I wanted to make sure I mean field on a conversation 1 right so let's turn it over to the audience so just to repeat um on the mike for the reporting are there any practices that you're trying our near company there are considered to progressive in this about that up but if you wanna talk about teal organizational structures you can talk to me after this a session and I I scare H our teams a lot more than a scare engineering in product teams and I think organizing your business and your organization there's organization or changing your engineering structure is super scary to peoples of that doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do that yeah it's a not to progressive but the same where are engineering team is on board to do anything but it's just a matter do we want to formalize things in the policy loss still figuring out how well it works so that's kind of where things you know think I've currently come up with something that's to progressive for someone but I have had the conversation of talking to a client or company about the existing hiring process and telling them that the filtering for the wrong thing like a lotta company that notice of made the health process longer on because hot like they have not the fault of the lattice hardening of what they're doing at the time of and you just got weed out sometimes but that just means you're filter for the person was the most time and has been most ability to weight which normally is filtering for some some type of privilege were well what we look at it on and that's normally not with the court the company wanted at all they wanted someone who wanted to work there it was a good fit for what they do instead they filter for the person who could wait around a month and a half of the minimum of happened in the 5th interview arrow and they don't mean to do that so I think we have time for 1 more question yeah so the question was how do you measure productivity after new higher out when your whole team is remote I but I normally used agile for that ontology say that is a dismissive way but in most thermo teams I worked with we kind of role them the into are like sprint planning process we have do the same estimations we do and I can only expect a certain amount of slack time as they ramp up on the project on I can't build that into the hiring process but after all the applicable the to which are evaluating OK this is where we expect you to be this is where you should expect yourself to be was armed that's measure what the output was so sprint after spring to start to see how we can make the changes great so we have like 1 more minute so maybe 1 more quick question so how do you normalize feedback from the members of the colonies were connecting different interview we use an application called a greenhouse and you do score cards and we worked very hard on the questions on the score cards and you're not allowed to talk to anyone better than interview until everyone's done the score card because it's so easy to introduce bias that how did you think when you're thinking like Sony so weird face in year 0 I must have missed something to the news earlier but the bad things so we have everyone do this big brain dump with some very specific questions and then it we read at all and it's very clear as some people had a very different experience and then we debriefed by a lot of times there's pretty good alignment or you can kind of pick out where the similarities are so keeping that keep not talking until you write down all your thoughts and then getting the thoughts together there's been immensely helpful for that it I can't like stress this enough every person who goes into an interview is representing your company their ambassadors and they should have interview training before they going that way that if you are interview interview training the people who were interviewing those candidates so that they can feel comparable in in writing in that greenhouse and having a conversation in the it's a huge win at very low cost and high impact right well thank you everybody i've you still have questions will be here and we can talk out in the hallway area maybe we'll do about and know about it or you can also reach us on Twitter and so yeah were were here to continue to talk to you about all this stuff it's super exciting and then we solve problems and there so
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