Becoming an engineering leader

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Becoming an engineering leader
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Are you a new manager? Have you been asked to lead a project? Do you want to see change in your company but don't feel you have the position to enact it? Are you terrified or nervous or unsure where to start? Has a recent situation left you questioning what you did wrong and how to be a better leader? Software development doesn't prepare us for taking on everyday or official leadership and yet, leadership is what every team and company desperately need. Let talk with a group of folks at various stages of the leadership hierarchy about what they have and want to learn.
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welcome everyone to the end of this track was so closing out our leading at all levels factors owing speed is amazing Panel on becoming an engineering air and I also wanted to remind everyone that we are doing the leadership of birds of a feather about tomorrow at 150 it's on the board so if you wanna continue talking about um leadership and the I being a leader regardless of your title indefinitely come and chat with us but tomorrow at the back so Rebecca and Rebecca Miller Webster is a software engineer conference organizer and educator she's the founder of rates the code and practice lead at their mind back as been developing software professionally for over a dozen years and previously organized so ago go reckons hobbies include drinking Diet Coke wearing trousers telling computers what to do how and swearing the all about that I hi welcome so I'd like to start with a little audience participation how many people not audience like actually artificially managers of ticket number how many of you have a manager call center and not have meant couple of people company you have a manager sort of I so when I was thinking about this can was on I I use the term leader and not manager really intentionally because I think that there's opportunities for all of us to lead at every level that we are on and I also as someone who on is a manager has been a manager think that you know active were always better giving advice to the person who's just below us the so I really wanted have a range and I mean let everyone introduce ourselves themselves by on it but you'll see that there's a big range in terms of people's experience unofficial title the so I asked them to tell you the name and a little background about and where the current leadership and history with leadership and who are a few influences job searching I can guess and check how I'm the VP of Product for comical yellow and Chicago I've been in design in engineering and product of Management Leadership for or 5 years no I time where have I got my of leadership guidance from the it's a question so influence influence on its from from both good and bad managers had really bad managers and really good managers think that probably rings true for most people hope arm of few which I want specifically gentleman in friendly is a really great manager and mentor to myself I I think relation so where can I think about it and look at it and tenderness certainly the other people in terms books and things like that I read but excessively Fred has been 1 of the primary ones we we have I am a half I'm in software engineering active at all in and I am an individual contributor some manager yet I but I'm interested in the leader active at all and I have a few initiatives I'm also board member rights because and I'm going into making inferences that is actually when making inferences is working with rates because I'm and eventually being so influence I want to become a board member and am a lot of blog posts I read I'm and about people that actually look up to that's influence a lot of the decisions that are made and how I approach go like is known it's a man is evil Martin Amélie suffer engineer editorial were hiring materials no it's in the home is that a 3rd of the lead developer positions clearly to where this has some influences influences and higher-level much like a shave my influences have also been like you know very good managers and also vary that the anti-terrorism and all the parts that are the most you have an additional easily say is like my mom's also an influence on you know it's a single mother raising a child you know they're all the years and also of my life is a really big influence on me because we have 2 year old and and seeing leadership like happening in action in having someone that I'm bouncing like leadership offered as well in like better understandings in like kind of collaborations and what we should do about this brought the situation but is something that like you required actual but a leadership and development design and in its own way thanks so what is something that you wish someone had taught you were told you are given you the heads-up about when it comes to leadership the concerned and so on it's surprising that it took me so long to figure this out but I wish someone had told me sooner that I don't have to be a manager to lead which is ironic because amongst Carolina on Viet it 1 people told me over and over but I don't actually understand what that meant and I and it didn't occur to me until I applied it to the Manager for the 1st time that I realized that I was waiting for approval to do the things that I wanted to do and so i'd wished I don't know what it would have taken from you understand that but I wish it would have I would realize that sooner I think some of it would really beneficial some to it's OK to fail I think I got into leadership and management I set realize dictations for myself and I I try to live up to those and I think I avoided making mistakes but but that then in return led to essentially making mistakes not making medicines are I think what defines us as leaders is our ability to tender respond to that not in the ability to completely avoided so so religious came out and the like you're going to fail and that's completely alright go for it up you'll be defined by how you respond that the more so than your ability to avoid it altogether out little long way early on the yeah I I would say the thing that I wish someone had mentioned to me earlier in my career that would be to explicitly we figure out how the things that you are individually contributing to actually tied to an explicit bottom line so as an ICA feel like I was very good about executing coding making sure things get done usually would then be estimations that given out about when things get done but not always tiny that bring it back to the literal value that I'm bringing to the business so as I'm accomplishing things and now the leader like actually need to kind of focus more on that below my current role at the opportunity to really like dig into that and I now think about other opportunities and publish that I had where I could have been that much more effective as a leader if I had like a title link between the work to my team was doing in explicitly bottom line dollar financial oftentimes it comes out like as an after thought and then I was able to help me to move forward but still I feel like driving that out much earlier really great enough think so what i how do you think that that so we've been talking a little bit about like leadership vs. management and there's also coaching mentorship teaching all these things are sort of related how do you how do you see them as related and also separate the and yes sir ahead it's it is innocent but I think like a I think mentorship of more as an explicit no the kind the observe as I am doing things and you can be asked Moses of which is like cool in its own way but not always that thing that kind of it helps you to make the next that feel like teaching is literally like more of like a back-and-forth some kind of interaction where the teacher is actively trying to instill certain principles and ideas in then as a student you can see those ideas come to life within their actions and deeds no I see management as kind of having high-level visibility on all the things that are going on almost like but new relative gas s where is like you know you would really have you wrote to like instruments all the things are happening in your application to unit at a high level just see like all the things are moving correctly much correctly and trying to apply and any influence of help or you can and leadership when I think of it in my favorite example is you know more of a Leonardo and less of a splinter were like you know you literally like in the fray with the squad buying the foot getting things done and it's how I personally I have been a lead and my previous endeavors of in his my favorite way to be a leader 1 0 0 hey how many think some small pieces then since you did such a good job laying the
land and I think that I especially like for coaching and mentorship I'm coaching is something that can happen like day by day like as a working side by side and I mentorship is kind of like this formalization of the coaching but you might do and so you might meet with someone an arm on a regular basis or and reach out to them and I see them as complementary so it's related but not management so you can have a meant to wear that separate from your manager who can actually help you our progress and sponsor you and you can also have you me and you're you're manager and your manager can be a leader a coach and a teacher and I am I meant war present and it can be other things I'm and viet it really depends on like your situation if you need those 2 pieces and to get them as you need to cover to I think done well all of them are basically positions of service not power and I have there's stuff we like granularity there within our leadership to be is a it's not a position it's not a job titles are promotion you get and the anyone to pick that up and those that I believe that begins at the taking ownership of problem and seeking by everything you can to get to a favorable solution there with them of management others a little bit different that's at a point where you begin have direct reports and of your role slightly changes I think it uh he has at it so at what that is and that varies vary wildly based optimization size of size you team you like I then think and so on how do you manage out and by manager I mean how do you manage your own manager or others above the the that out of about half of whom I think I know the biggest thing not just a with you managers above you would hear you know engineers of 42 in in life as a whole i is really communication and setting expectations and if necessary resetting expectations I think the the biggest thing that everyone wants is like visibility inquiry into the ongoing of things that may be out of you know the day-to-day concerned but ultimately will affect the bottom line at some point and effectively if you're able to communicate like correctly and clearly to you know you're manager or any other stakeholder like above the project any PM excetera and you're able to kind of to ensure that they are clear about 1 thing to be delivered if there are delays if there are robots if there are dependencies other teams as long as you are really clear and explicit about these things and you give them the tools they need because these His liver is a talk and train that there's the Goleta rolls downhill I still alive and you find yourself like in this state where is like you feel the pressure from like you know you're you're lead really leader or whatever you say 0 it's because they are also feeling the pressure coming down on them in Abidjan and then ultimately as a board director somewhere in this equation and they're pushing all the pressure down on all the things so it is cool Larry all the way up to the stack then no 1 as a question about what's going on and why is a problem so there is a problem because it was clear what's going on so I'm really excited about this question because as an individual contributor who has a manager like at the bottom of the rung and this this is like my forte so I I manage a pretty strongly and I am the way I do it is I come to you everyone of was so I have 1 on 1 of my manager every other week on it's a cadence that I chose in and I come to every manager meeting with an agenda so sometimes it's in the form of a poster or a notebook or something more formal armor and I have a list of the things that I've done in the last 2 weeks that I want to inform them on so progress that had on my own goals where I think that's going so what are some future initiatives I have things I'm curious about opportunities that I want and I am questions so questions and concerns and I some of the questions are kind of like how does this fit into the big picture do I fit into the big picture I'm sometimes it's in the form of like I need reassurance please tell me amazing I'm and I become more and more explicit 1 manager about meeting that I and also concerns so I used to only talk about myself so this is me this is what I'm doing this is what I want the Narconon kind of transitioned over to these are the things that I'm hearing on the floor and I think this is important for you know these are the things that I potentially want you to bring about a manager meeting when you see it's fair because I care about our culture and I want us to keep a culture intact so I'm like I want this to be a two-way cycle so managing up for me is being able to be part of this partnership when listening to the ground for and helping them become better managers from other managers so because they can the busy managing they can sometimes keep the into the ground but are much closer to the ground as being on the bottom rung but we use only the dream employee to begin with but it every employee came in went 1 wonders like group says the business doing of the amazing but it's way earlier I think that's why you'll be a manager for order of it is a question of it's kind interesting something we think about our managing up when things are not truly going well and that's almost too late as at the wrong time that should think about that but when I manage about to manage tricky to CEO 2 board and I can't like walk in and just try Mike control situation as it's like unfolding of those are things I have to be ahead of well in advance and for me that space lead ability relationship with those people day in and day out that's a getting to understand how they think how they want communicate and how they move about the business and do things and up in doing that I really find understand exactly what the problems are and where they're going and I do everything I can actually make those problems my own and then seek to say how can I help you solve those and the entire thought there is about whatever word I can begin to take off the plate and put on my back the moment I have to turn the table around becomes a lot easier the moment something I need to push back right to kind of manage up to ask them to do that were presented us slide in under the Temple of it and the former willing to to lean into my side of the tables so that's OK like I can take that all except like the push back but this on the fact that I've taken things from them historically and that is something you have to be proper value to get ahead of that so that when it comes time action Manager of it's 1 of and you've already burned the good grace to say OK like fair enough although direction or water something slightly different I would also add on that like part of managing up I think also changes your vocabulary were suddenly there's this lake personification object called the business words like yes this is for this is that we need to focus on blood or labeled the business processes we can change our focus on like Gilbert correctly and I remember being ICT feeling like I hate when people see the business you you you mean Jill right like he means error right like the business but the reality is like being able to kind of extracted out a little bit ADC like doesn't like put it directly on someone's face in the you know what is you still have the light pole was that the bits of people kind of think of it like more objectively and have a conversation but that does help when you are managing up because we get this sort speaking in that way with like people who were like kind of further up like the brain of the tree that you're part of else wanted to add that and especially like with the brainy manager that you had some part of managing up is trying to figure out a way to build trust with them so I for me that's a little bit hard because I just take a while that build trust and so i've as an engineer I built a process and that process is to find things like small tasks right so it's like I need help with this and see how they react in kind increase that scope and increase their trust over time so managing that means I'm willing to put in this work and I have an idea let's work on that idea together specifically on building trust so that when something bigger comes down the line that we're gonna be OK and I'm going to understand how you communicating and why you're communicating and knows no that it comes from the place because I know inherently but it always does but need to understand how that fits into the actions and reactions the building relationships trust and again on a 1 open it up to some question if there are any if not I can keep asking questions have a whole list them going so 2 seems like 2 questions 1 as manager how do you recognize talent particularly if people are coming from nontraditional backgrounds into how you advocate for yourself if you're in opposition
either clarifying question we say recognized how like as in how do you recognize that in someone else for how do you basely give them praise for that 1st did I don't know that I have a great answer on I think it's it's it's it's about answer I and recognizer but is getting close to that person right and working alongside them and I having more once you know at some regular occasions really beginning to understand and how they think what they're feeling in and get a rope also the work they're doing and I think whether or not they're doing good or bad is relative to that person to do right so the output might not be that of another engineers on the team but that doesn't mean that they're not actually doing the job you right so I think it's building up that actual global compassion understand that on was the 2nd question how do you making the advocate self 1 we have had and what can I meant so for me personally sigh came from a world that was not in software are making from the consulting world so as an energy consulting and I switch over to software and so for me personally I feel that strongly because I want to consulting and I you know I built this interesting thought leadership I built this interests and like on how to develop a relationship with a a with a client and dealing with tougher conversations and like communication issues so the question is like how do I is an individual contributor start to talk about to my manager about like where I E M where they see I am and where and don't like and how close my to the next level so a few weeks ago I sat on of my manager and was like I want to talk about a skills matrix and so we sat down from skills matrix and I made I made that my manager do homework and I need them not play a number for each workout so we have categories of matrix rate so from 2 5 for like different areas and sub pieces and size I want you to figure out like what you where you think I am and then we're going go side by side and we're in a place each of the little boxes the and the reason I'm bringing this up is because now we're talking about the same thing again we're having seen vernacular and I cancer to point out and say I see this future piece and I think they either the really good at that would be a Ahmadi doing it and I can explain to you why because were pointing on skills matrix and that's the thing that's going to get me promoted so kind of talking about something much more granular and like personally I've had a lot of anxiety around like does my manager income amazing like I don't know do they actually recognize the things that I'm doing are my 1 on one's were strongly managing upward actually getting through to them and it's are they writing this stuff down I can find out from the school's matrix so I'm being recognized is a lot easier when you talk about something that the business business actually values and of building a conversation from there so sometimes see a skill that I had that's not there and I'll ask why prostitute can be on there and if not like how is that still ever going to be captured or is it something that I may have but may not necessarily like fit into the business of so fundamentally as a manager 1 of the things that I try to do is think about what skills are important to the team and that has to include crude things are coding and if you can start the conversation and sometimes you can start the conversation with your manager but sometimes you can start with your team I'm about what's important to the team they can come up in wretch rows and things like that you can like a roller style at How much is my preferred way of creating change in organizations and by being clear that communication arguing from a clients you deal with other departments water the ways that your skills and what you're contributing are valuable and make things more successful I'm and then tying it back to you the business whether that's quantifying in terms of money or quantifying it in terms of like the successful number projects have gotten dine etc. that is 1 of the best way is the other thing is to like ask for feedback from your manager and 1 of the things that but because most people don't are very good at giving positive feedback ask them what they think you're doing well if they're not if they don't tell you usually like because they any feedback for me and it's like 0 well you not anything badly so not missing a thing that you're probably doing something while and so sometimes it's just pushing them to do that in your sort of training them in some ways new hires training her manages to have certain kinds of conversations and in general that's a really positive yeah I just the and on the opening of the late what we're all m is described in some varying degrees and levels you an agile framework Canada and of that of practices 1 of the really important things about that is like at the end of the spring break and of attract work having the ability of gambling in some of the demos valuable demitted external stakeholders become literally see that all you know so and so did this portion of the argument today in like that it is the following you know bits the complexities understand imply correctly and what have you but it doesn't need to be the finished product and that no date it can still be like that of water cookie dough it's still on the other hand it's not completed yet but like a lot of work still when into it like by the time the sprinters over it's not like there was 1 person who was just shown all day playing Game Boy right like the people were working constantly throughout a sprint so there's always something that can be shown even if the thing to be shown was the result of research so the person that they're still insanely valuable because the still adding onto the value of your team and adding onto the overall value of the take it in yes we're going to get to that at the very end thank you for asking about resources they promised and good or in that on this share pretty sure everybody managers up whether they realize it or not of sometimes it goes better than others I think that 1 of the hardest things about being a manager for me was realizing that like how I like to manage or be managed was a relevant and so learning to adjust and recognize the way other people wanna be managed is like probably the hardest part because you basically adapting your style to them and that's what's most effective but it also the most difficult and so sometimes when people manage up may have for example we work together with right because and she started like stunningly these messages that were like number 1 here is this question number 2 0 here is this question and I was like this is amazing please can to keep continuing doing math and here's my answers with numbers and the but so that was also like very clear that like that's how she wanted to be worked with and and communicated with iron I think the harder part is when people are proactive and don't manage up and you have to sets out there sort of style yourself I would say if someone's managing about on probe pretty happy about that that ideally the taking work of my plate I the but the same time to of PrePer like Coughlin a believer that I will change my like process any given day of the week so long as it works with the actual team or the people involved arriving process is far easier to change than people so upset I'm over some almost all work is the way I'm going to work with them another try and get them do conform into my way of working of someone's trying to actually manage over manage me in that scenario I'm happy to do that and like work with them in their own process and how they wanna do that but I like that ASR is probably prefer the question the out of emotional work management is a lot of emotional work and the so I think that the hardest part of someone dealing with someone who's struggling at it is that you feel bad for them and that light often what happens is you were feeling bad the gets in the way of you trying to deal with this situation and you have to balance being this like someone objective person who has a job to do and has a box while also being compassionate i'm and so on it's always a struggle and and I think 1 of the thing that's been really effective when it goes back to resources that of mine we have a leadership coach and he kind of like to give us a framework for when people are struggling that like our job as the company in leaders is to set clear expectations define success criteria give people a time frame and give people the resources to be successful and and so that was really helpful for me because I like lists obviously I'm and so being able to like step back and think about the things in that way like what I expected from someone and I think the key part that we often forget in in that is giving people a time frame that's reasonable
and sort of close enough to assess and then I don't the resources as in like checking and making sure things are happening on like a regular basis and so that's how i've handled it is to give myself systems for when these things happen but it's always struggle yeah you definitely and loudly in in company where e-mails is how I can have a I think 1 of the things when someone is struggling is to try and help them out by giving them kind of an explicit things that can help pull them out of whatever the into sometimes with the in is like a legitimate problem where they're just not coming forward with some the complexities of finding and in similar times that in the end is the task at hand is perhaps like a little bit like heavier than the anticipated lifting which is wholly find happens all of us you know this state would solicit try and take a big bite you joke but you have to be little like kind of of as low as a leader kind of uh in the various touch points you have at this person like if you notice saying like you know these like really stand that messages are happening every day you're not really seeing like this other end of that which would be like can you know completion of stories or at least like some detail on the works of the forward under the kind of like the the small signs that things aren't really following the way that not only you as a weird quantum the flow but also as the individual was on the before because certainly like everyone wants to get a story on Monday banging on Monday nite and then by Tuesday stand up is likely as that's impure request you know but like you don't always have the opportunity to do that so this trying to like really listen and pay attention to the keys of is that the biggest thing for me to do it is also something that isn't that with 1 engineer with everyone's I choose at a given out there are 2 things that I would say and not specific to people of the emotionally the but any of like your employer should know like how much you actually care about them right into the degree to which they're far more important than the actual organization because the organization doesn't exist without them on ensuring that they know it's not like this apathetic like I like you cause I need you to do your job and that works well for me like the to the point of like you care so much about them like it that meant like referring them to go work elsewhere you do that because you know that was more aligned to the course of the war the long-term like sincerely making sure that they feel valued and that like their best interest is what you want for them right and you can do that on the spot when when it's emotional it's something you do everyday day in and day out you believe that we could to point to where something is emotional re million that have our conversation but you have to prepare you have to have that written down in in variable document outlines and when you walk into those conversations you have to be incredibly clear right leave no room for ambiguity on to face RCU questions and you don't have answers and they unit is designed like kill Kilkenny like a kind of they're obviously trying to like fill voids in their head and interpret what you're saying and that is like a dangerous place for them to go on so it's 1 of which you have to be incredibly clear with with certainly like you know what what you're kind trying to communicate appeared on an issue or thing you need done or what have you but the clarity around the communication is really important the OK we don't have a lot of time left and to someone have a shortish question at what point said leaders were managers or meant stopped coding which is kind of like around 1 per and I I I think that this is really difficult because they think that it's really hard to code and the in a project when you're also managing people and but I also think there's like that line where you're managing like the devil leave so you're managing but you're like on the project and and even that is like a difficult balance but I think as soon as you get out of like not specifically being on a project in only managing a project and those people like you can encode basically I mean you know you can on the side and keep a self fashion pairings that but basically can be an expectation that part of your job yeah 0 level like the low complexity of being a leader is so high that there isn't enough time for you also the individually contribute and move of move projects forward at like a reasonable but reason reasonably as leader found myself but In find myself today in problem for well but in more meetings than I have contiguous blocks of time because relax sit down focus on record like as efficiently as elective but in this over time this start to see that 1 more and more and more of members of it can be humans in the auditory the about you of our various stakeholders and require more appear in the in thoughts on 2 the best ways of executing the project is something that kind of will start to happen to you as a leader of In I guess it is kind happens kind of when you really recognize the fact that you trying to be individual contributor is actually selling your team down it's like an obvious point but ideally you're starting to kind yourself back as much as possibly can so for you that point but yeah it is over there honestly like I explicitly struggle with in like in that on job interview question but what's your weakness that's the right out like I want to be a Leonardo like I want to fight the foot like I wanted you might through so that it is not always the best thing and yet and yet it is kind of a itself into that space to recognize that an employer so far so I work computer labs and we do agile xt so take a very different model and the way it works right now so minute and explain the way the way works fairly quickly and then I say how I feel about it so I the way it works is that I am that managers work for the labs and the a are they have like a certain number of hours where they do spend more time managing and there is a certain number of hours reduced and time coding and on we work with clients we work side by side sometimes just exclusively with pivot sometimes with clients end the expectation is that with the manager on the team that you will have less velocity were like less productivity in theory because they're not as available as before then I think said there is like probably some potential for some i granularity in this model where it's like not necessarily like coding 30 hours a week or 35 hours a week and managing 5 hours and that's something that I know where actively trying to iterate on and it's difficult when like you have a manager who is like in and out of different things I but it 1 of the nice things about being agile P is that there's like no past but the anyone can pick up the next story and they have no context so I er like and then solve 1 other person has context and there's an intention behind sharing that context knowing that the manager will be around so it's a very much of it every different model and that's like kind of working and like I see some gaps in it and I we definitely are inactive conversations on data in on cuts at some point it just gets harder and harder and if you go beyond that level than you start cutting altogether at the same short sooner rather than later honestly and that's art and you could you'd like this we're good at that's what you know what you fall back to of the danger involved in that and just a ripple effect circuit have across the team in that you start doing something you pull away from it and they're letting with that the to basically takes a great amount of self awareness of and emotional diligence to know that but I am sure the interest in Roman great so we only have a few minutes left I wanna get back to the resources question so what are some of your favorite resources or the best resources training books blogs people other than the antibody mentioned for leadership something like the article 1st as a modern society but I like to read a ton of at normal amount but also a preface my answer also is metabotropic is made through it's also saying that of like I read a cookbook so numerical portion of so it's more so that like the practice of it makes a ton of difference and so say that like Figure books and it's weird but I love most of Patrick Joanis books of 5 assumptions of a team is like problem of all time favorite by for every single person on my team there is a leadership and so perceptions of great book of the hard thing about how things have been Horowitz is a great book i integral great book on my missing Peter Drucker's create their parties trade on will take this there there is a lot about apt to that set my the
resources shameless plug coping honestly they're really helps me a lot like selfishly on this the for me personally I am I do a lot of my learning by talking to other people so I and II look I actively look for men to words in the company people who were not necessarily in my line of work so people who could potentially influence me sponsor me from the outside I'm and I read a lot of like smaller snippets elite blogpost nite find ways at lunch and like during my breaks to talk to the people about it so I personally just happened to learn a lot by talking loud and sharing that information and like processing in that way so I know that I just take advantage of that and that means talking to people like many images on top and other managers have to their managers it's escape levels on and like I'm currently reading of the 1st break all the rules so that is actually ironically I give did to me so 1 great thing as a manager is like if you see potential and someone you know you don't have to sponsor them and might be by the side for the rest of like the entire the entire career right you can use small thing is like giving them a book and when that happened to me I was like 0 symbolism me so that's why reading a book apparent that those you know
in a similar way I I also have of unfortunate enough to have a lot of friends were also in the Lead positions and that helps have but network around but I feel it at a higher level of this being will be plugged into a general community if you're in private through local likely that groups from around rails Ruby around polyglot programming being able to pull that kind of of thoughts and ideas from other people in the general community it really helps because you can kind of be a little it pull it in a more abstract version of a real scenario you dealing with and if you have a great relationship with someone you can be a little more specific about it if necessary and better like the the personal touch the whose mean and 1 thing like 30 sec that 10 seconds of promise on fire as an organizer of meter my often just like create themes on the things I want to talk a lot about our our coast of speakers or like and doing our 1 of them on mica regression so they can learn more about that and understand everyone's perspective on how to deal with my own so sometimes you can create a solution like create the conversations that you want to have a minute throw 3 books out there 1 is behind closed doors which is a pragmatic permit programmers book on enduring management frankly is the best engineering management specific book I've ever right I very tactical but then book of trust and anything by bringing Brown who want leaves us with and talks of wanna ability her last book rising strong has some great stuff about building trust so thank you for coming things for close enough to leadership tracks strong have become much or how that so if