Open Source Graphics and Web Services: A panel discussion

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Open Source Graphics and Web Services: A panel discussion
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This session will be a moderated panel discussion of some specific questions that relate to how the FOSS graphics suite can or should react to the RIA movement, which is largely non-free. In addition to Picnik and the other well-known services, Google Docs has now added a Drawing app, so RIA isn’t going away.
Keywords Libre Graphics Meeting (LGM)
awareness build code view time part privacy Outline web Facebook Services Meeting/Interview Frameworks model office Systems areas collaboration Headers Capacity software developers types browser applications Google job Editor rights free Space servers App open source browsers product Lecture/Conference internets terms default shift response interface projection front end content Applications Word URLs Computer animation networks visualize Case web development Query Ensemble
web Computer animation software developers bit Games parameter Applications program power number Space form
servers file code time stations sources regular program Twitter Computational number web versions Services goodness Dense Frameworks distribution law sharing bit Applications particle Computer animation networks Richard Stallman website configurable essence board free protocols freezing library desktop publishing software
point awareness open source laborers file code view set clients Canonical part Perspektive web versions Mathematical different shell Frameworks interface software developers projection instant messaging databases bit instances Vektordaten kernel networks website iOS editors library
transition code time view function part privacy Energy web Facebook Mathematical Frameworks pad scripting screen software developers 3rd Join tablet browser applications job Chain organization editors rights sort cycles free point open source Resolution similar driver jump browsers Twitter specific causal internets platforms level interface Standards graphs projection law Applications potential networks university cloud family library
transition stations unit privacy program Computational wiki Biomedical Imaging Services signing different media exceptions Systems paradigm Relation map software developers list effectiveness bit nominal complete mean Ordering sort DTN write point open source file students discussion forums terms hardware platforms selection form netbooks focus scale surface unique law content lines later Applications potential freedom people environmental networks Case statements life Games family frame bottom attitude state view time ones set part web Facebook Mathematical Meeting/Interview Sync filesystem box Frameworks Google App Engine areas scripting Headers Store fit deg alternate forms Google hard drives disk rights free reverse-engineering laptops servers machines browsers power Twitter versions internets operators domain interface genders projection plane Logic physicist's cloud speech service margin protocols
virus Flight paths code directives view real-time operating system water part privacy Perspektive Computational web Facebook Mathematical Services different areas software developers Store bit revolution scenes bandwith messaging job Richard Stallman Ordering organization quantum rights cycles free Space servers statistics file connection guide realtime audio mass color power number Formulas internets level form addition shift graphs projection content Applications Demo Word Computer animation networks recognize Tabulated
so the sessions in view of a different rather than just
presenting what the answers are were not tried as some open questions and hopefully get some response from out there the subjects is quite simply how the open-source graphics community response to the challenges of web apps which as we just a job explaining our biological so for we start like who responded to my e-mail with interest in discussing this to introduce themselves you probably know with are but in case you don't you I would like to find constant and emotional fonts and I'm quite interesting idea of a Web-based collaborative online content this that's where my interest in Haiti and Johnnie just talked a noun that shut up I knew I knew he was going say coincide birds and now I'm not up on talking in the capacity year of status that net mostly in freezer or services I'm standing on visual artists and the developer and to well mostly involved in different bottom projects and I presented such in this conference OK so just to give a brief introduction Web better here like we all know that right in a what areas of computing the premise that the default interface you you wouldn't it was Ginny occasions on networking is to have a web app front and firstly Google voice is on the Web before it's on a mobile device uh disappointing on a desktop apps to look at Google Docs quick even some free suffer product like at the word and tomboy boys are working on their own the rich Internet that type of interfaces antifreeze of people there's some problems with this the 1st is that in cases it's a software as a service model which means that the user at home and have some jobs running in the browser but they don't have access to the the code on the server in In case the understand freedom like this religion modified and if you're a developer anyone to interoperates with that service you're limited to what they let you do with the API the what the document what they support and even worse closed service running with GPL'd code on the server the ship in the modifications back to the community there is also a practical challenge because let's face it google Docs here should be our users right like the OpenOffice people spend a lot of time convincing people out there in the world that they don't have to use microsoft office analogous to the Google said right that's too bad we want those people but at the same time you know there's a challenge here is also a big opportunity for open source because let's face it there's no installation the assessment of URL all app and the the running into something they type in uh you have to compete with what's preinstalled operating system a and like is sharing in getting people to collaborate together is what open source does best and so that's a good opportunity for the creative acts to encourage people to build interfaces for people can collaborate with each other over the internet in this is a good time to talk about it because like it said you're seeing web that front ends take a lot of mocha away from desktop business apps but not really creative space there's photo editors like picnic and something like that but by and large it has to have the same impact as the officer it that's going to the 1st question which is the tools so as the panel here are the open source Rich Internet frameworks already good enough to facilitate building open source graphics Web apps and if not what are lack we get J query with violence and things like that coming but just what's missing and what we want to help people who work in these frameworks yes who that response thank you're listening and was this and useful so when I was a kid you know how and so OK so network services basically feet rephrase the question quot I don't it's also questions are the tools good enough for the tools lack yeah hello I think of what you're seeing in web development and what's important for us graphic uh application developers and that's part of that acceleration is coming to the browser and for a lot of projects I think in graphics application that is very important because without hotter acceleration it will be the user experience will be just too slow and here we have GL which is evil and there will be more of 4 of these involutions uh I also would like to do to comment on on the uh dh PL I will bring but this more questions the broader demographic software alone that's maybe I the slip something in that the GPL became a kind of a b is the in the sense that uh it can be used by companies uh without contributing much back-off contributing maybe 2 too little entities but not like pushing the new innovation in the open and so in that sense for me like Facebook it's it's really like the apple of of the Web like uh apple if you buy Apple products you're locked in and to like if you buy music maybe knowledge changing ownership by devices your money's locked in an all these devices and if you have to have great shift pay more money uh facebook is just the same Just shifted place monograph privacy and we have a saying that Pyramus money but I think nowadays it's you could say like privacy is money and I think I will bring of would not be better for the free software movement if all project starts moving to a DAG GPL because you cannot just say because your application is directed to the web that it should be a GPL I mean we are in a context we are in a context where the glottis evolving where a lot of innovation is pushed by an investment by and uh innovations and right now a lot of these companies Facebook Google and both of them they can although some of them contribute quite a lot back still uh there's the feeling between free software developer that there's kind of free right so uh Mike question in that sense this is a GPL now not like to be is the and should be not move to the GPL even for desktop applications I am I think that's a good idea 1 of the things I want to show in terms this kind tools question is this system pajamas and this allows you
to the kind of compile a Python program into a telescope web based application and then by using the um what kids have which it this in qt in GTK you can then bring them back into a desktop application and the the the power of the the Web stack is quite a number of the very
impressed and this is a simple space invaders games Thomas Chalmers and it works very well it's just curation of 5 CSS and the that that yeah it's idea very president that and the developer league latent argument with him a little bit on some form development tools and just just
starting to do that was couple weeks and 1 of the very president pajamas so recommend people can checked that out and I think we very GPL is essential for
licensing these kinds of applications because even if you will initially targeting the dust ability to then cut that the web is is is there something else I've seen kind of similar to this kind of going the other is to use the the NC particle and projected onto a canvas tag on a webpage so that you can have a regular desktop publication brought 7 and you allow people to interact with purely through the web using chemist density and say again you know if if if these that's a publications referring licensed now carries through to the network compartment and is becoming more and more easy to use back and forth between these 2 distinctions British coming blood In the other thing too is and let the last of the BER planet the free software conference and Richard Stallman released a paper on suffers a service basically articulating that I'm not really shutting down services like Twitter but looking more at where the computing happens so let's let's say Inkscape OK Inkscape developed this this little protocol but what is the white board and that was running on a network service so also desktop applications run on these network services I think a GPL license is useful as well and hopefully can push shattered maybe the combining GPL for the yeah right yeah I think they explicitly did make detailed 3 D GPL come in because that's not a good thing the we will if you don't know times what did we mention details somebody clearer what the distinction is there are no OK via the issue with that the GP always how defines distribution like when distribute your program to somebody you're supposed to give them the source code or making available somehow but if the code running on a server the way the GPL the findings distribution it has really been distributed to the user and so you don't have to give them source code and a GPL is an attempt to correct that but redefining what it means to distribute the programs are running over the network if you're making available to a user in that in that sense you still have to give them the source code and show that with the community that's the the essence of the AGP moving on thank you for your OK the common law so the a GPL is great for the of the applications that people are going to use and much the smallest this but for libraries and frameworks in is problematic and if there are good libraries and frameworks that some people just can't so we can use it because it's not compatible with the other solvers they're using whether being open-source or proprietary license so a lot of this kind of problematic you really should think about if you should use a tubular not if it's a stand-alone application that's great if it's a library framework you know then you here basically oscillating users but it's not like if something is like a uh 5 based and see you know application that anyone including another application then that is a GPL then you just can't use it unless you're all yourself as a GPL as well so then it's basically driving down the number of users for these things as some people would have to use proprietary framework or rolled around which is also limiting kind of their freedom as well so I don't forget GPL is really is good for all so the publication share but can you can you be a bit more specific because it GPL well the a GPL freeze perfectly compatible with the GPL 3 so and that to an unknown and other licenses so can you be specific about which kind of conflict is framework libraries for libraries and frameworks you know if you're using that you're application has to abide by the GPL 3 has to be compatible with it and not everything else so another thing I would say is on there's a lot of ways to to solve problems come with licensing and so I lose my founders of greater commons allowed times of the ICA radio station would come in and they do it we need a radio station license site know you don't you don't need a radio station license on dead so for example with status that and there is some concern about the configuration files and because they were actually PHP and PHP
site OK so I have a convict files that now under the GPL license OK and so 1 of the things we did is removed those into the database and so this the changes it changes a little bit so so it's a way around that that's 1 way around and get on with ID framework to speak this is another idea is that the there's something there's we've made some modifications because of running on the inside of the database it's also a path here having work-arounds because you know a license is incompatible doesn't make sense but I mean the other thing too is that it's not necessarily a problem you like and I mean if your goal is to have coffee left in the entire stack then it's good but that's not around school special it's true it's it's not a request from which it it doesn't sound like a solution it does have to be a solution for every 1 you there and I don't think we're advocating that our I and is greater in in some contexts but other context is not I'm just I want to point that out before everything's a GPL you know everybody she's for everything on the what that would be really problematic for a lot of people and then you know people using proprietor frameworks then there's lock into that as opposed to like something that would be like a library version of the GPL for instance work you can use it but if you make changes to the need of private changes back that's that's a little bit different than the I have some good examples of where it's actually benefited and particularly with companies that have own big companies that have chat clients that are in Redmond that we want to use of libraries and create libraries that plug into a GPL licensed software that's a good instance of where that code is OK it's a GPL license this is now a gift to the community OK uh and I like to do also in the bonds which for me is very important issue official artist or as an architect uh and ended goes on on what's John set that before that's about the fact that if you use Web technologies which offer me quite interesting in the sense that I feel that innovation in user interfaces Interaction Design is happening now look phones and on the left uh because there are so many designers and developers perspective but for me it's not just that there are more people may be known these technologies it's also that that's also different kinds of people that know these technologies and so I think what's needed in open source is that designers more considers developers and designers gets more involved in open source and 2 other PVC that a bit happening like that of the daughter are steam who now came to the conclusion that well it's not just about art work that's also read about design canonical is also having special design team and I think that's uh well we have dim projective which has beta sitting but I think a lot more projects here uh really you won't good good good gone become a lot better with with the input of the uh designers and so like they for showing the pajamas project I think it's an excellent framework from a developer's point of view but I would like to get more design involved because the resulting user interface is well it's not how can I say it won't be the next sexy weapon to look tho would be duration so I think there's really need for designers and like you cannot easily Boston 0 where does the publication to the weapon like what you can do it through the and but it's mostly dead slow uh but you can go the other way around so uh you see that now if the kernel 3 commentary shell is written in JavaScript and CSS or like labor annotated client uh it's also using gets and uh a lot of fear maybe days to greater than 0 but they use a lot of that technologies to make it look nicer so um that's a possibility and so that you you do you make a user interface and just since users and then it's more easy to get the sinus enforced and they cannot just propose mockups but they may be even can propose there already interactive designs which are working and maybe that's something interesting which is not export enough and maybe it's a good of for some applications and for all but for some of this might be good really I have a comment on that and and kind of moving into a new new topic to come up with with clip-art library is it's always been a big concern is the I and I wanna get more people involved with the project and different kinds of designers people from other parts of the world and so is now have projects like aviary where there's an online vector graphics editor it's very quick easy and they have thousands of users and created a whole community around the and and now with the SET
edit tool here which is HMO 5 the SCG editor and there's a company that's for it is collect exact cloud cloud the making where there is a cloud book cloud based on they formed a company around this this tool and on it the open clip-art library the proposed added on so you build it quickly click in any right there within your houses in contributed that's much easier than trying to get some designer to run uh on on a bond to ICT or something when it's just directly right within the browser so I'm really interested it did encourage and or C how people here 1 2 used various skill sets to create a similar web applications to the desktop applications you're developing so is it byte
so there's a lot of people were hiking code lacking projects is here hacking browsers is what invited contributing to any of this kind 3 of them what they so 3 of the major John JavaScript observed when the engines are open source you that would give you the model and you've got there is no no uh so is if you're doing if you're interested in graphics and if you're interested from the web what people packing on these on these frameworks that that that's part of the question the other privileges it seems to me that the the lock-in here is in the browser's right if you if you're trying to make web applications you trying to I don't like for 4 years you couldn't use I think 1 reason OK you see redesigned OK that's awesome if it is probably you know 80 per cent of why people are now using the we did the job this is I think another 1024 sense because it makes for where morning is the gene the bring some way behind it ended 4 years the lot out essentially you that that's OK that that's cool hair cycle but it but now there you know the the point is to get the stuff into the browsers OK how how do you get into open source for you get you get into a resource by contribute sources how you get into Internet Explorer ideas to operate we adopt because it's also in the puts it offers like that where the best is user-agents right but the way you get generics for and when you get into other browsers is by putting into a standard and so that's why if you were if you have would city centers toward a canvas standard or you know all the so that's why I'm really really encouraging everybody to seriously think about if you're an open source software getting royalty-free licenses in getting browsers to actually like if you're if you're concerned about the platform the platform is controlled by browsers not just 1 branch you could make 1 source browser they all have to be doing the same thing in explorers not going to go away so do you have all these standards to get people to open things up is critical absolutely critical on it that's why I am tte really trying to get you guys to I realize that if we put a lot of energy into opening up the view the sees so that it can get community involvement in were not seen it really were not seen people really come to us and join SCG interest groups don't drive requirements help drive the dictionary so this region it's astounding to me that seen so I guess my question to you is so what 1 of my doing wrong how and why did have a change this such that people see 0 here's here's the causality chain right really asking where my doing wrong and so 1 1 level is to say like OK you know everybody should be doing this but I think there will way to look at it as incentives and to see how the free software open source software developers can contribute and the there is this incentive is a cash incentive for 1 now I don't know if that maybe it might not motivate us here which for some reason we can keep developing on pending skate forever right regardless of Facebook what I I like to call to its face now Twitter and Facebook but it is this can happen forever so we have to look at the incentives and for me the incentive is to and time self is that it to be older have more impact on the world in a larger impact in my own output by I want everyone to be using free software OK and I know that there's a lot of investment into the web so I know that if I build a successful business it's going to do a lot more and I'll be able to do a lot more then he I'm just in my room around just you know I'm at university and unpacking like that does not sort wrong right just comes and we want to do so I think for the that every 3 c the standards by your participate arrested has he clearly instead of how that work and I think for developing on the Web has to be this feeling of whether it wants to do this at the let's get pissed off you know like this would happen with Facebook and the privacy issues is there a lot of pissed off people he that you might have read about this in diaspora project right OK like immediately like our community we're looking at this diaspora project immediately some like Lewisville and others like we just immediately go to the code base there's nothing there Her like sale you know this is going fail is going to fail whatever you know but regardless of that is cited about that is that there is a demand and a desire there's pissed off people because a bunch people with each to be scratched so how did they raised 100 thousand dollars in a weaker 2 weeks because of this anger is far so until there's that there's an incentive I don't see that the river you know being redirected are the people coming to that redirected river so here's a good example of I saw just the top on the uh pen tablet drivers on the on the future I think it was and that's awesome you need those on you know every platform right harbor we also need and the Web like you have pressure-sensitive during is spec under the working on you know going forward but there's some reluctance by some of the browser vendors to actually the part of that work so do you want tablets on the web you would be able to use multi-touch on you knew of applications you're not going to get it the most people are clamoring thank you said get angry must be people are demanding we want this in In a royalty-free data see you know in w 3 c specification already or in any any specification the brothers are actually looking at you have as the owner of the 3 so your your hands are tied in listening you have you letting your hands be tied by not getting involved as well because you're you're letting them people limit what you can actually do in the browser would like to join in because you just said who is working on long long these web platforms and been uh my my companies actually trying as an experiment to bring OpenDocument audience into WebKit and see whether that can work and if it works for you want to become great so that that that's 1 level at a low level I for also done a little application that just and that will get and rich Javascript on the desktop that actually really bad experience because we couldn't get the best of you correct and on the 3rd level Sesame Tenerife creator I can't imagine that it's just my lack of imagination how you can get an education I creator where you have to have a little about 2 gigabytes of data if you from their which was lots of malodorous solution at pixel count inside to a branch of that step that that that's the level where I come to mention about these platform so far from open document to do it would be great roster have well as features in the platform but if I want to have an application Russia application creature again in a web browser I need something like SCG built into web get and all the other graph arrangements so that that point we only have 1 library for everyone has to work on budget but this is a panel that web applications right so there may be things that are possible in that's that's a good example it maybe too maybe things are possible modifications and maybe we need to be examined why they are possible only when the underlying assumptions that make them not possible like there's web 3 I wondered what G where G L is a 3 D stuff going on across know Webster's organization and that's also a muzzle-loaded is there and that such looking really good job was stripped engines beginning we dont jealously fast like you do really great stuff in JavaScript engines and their is the browser vendors are really competing on performance these days and that's a great thing so maybe in few years it was believed that that the 1 have that the problem with getting created and I'm not sure actually yeah I think that the kind of relentless march of moles law and that's that must be provided in gel script engines in the browsers is reproducing the potential for a performance like dust of level performance things I even with something which very data intensive like pixel-based editing and and ICG nevertheless went up but I was really shocked when I saw this because you may put this in full screen I mean that that everything of being scared user interface and so on and it just got you a this kind of essential basic features that you need to do some basic illustration already right there emissions 1
additional page with yeah I the only thing right and that's what I'm saying is that the the it's the reason this is here now and was about 10 years ago is because all of the the marginals and that improvements is made in browsers performance and that that's going to continue to happen and doing these things the the economy gonna be really realistic as desktop software 5 10 years down the line than that is gonna be realistic what browser I have 2 questions here so and then the the claim that they're more like a journey here the as much so so that have to do things to talk about wanting to select lateration go-ahead question of questioning of the should be elections she just he just talk about Bulgaria but if used ever GPL which is strict you can baggage recalled using with order what soldier or there are frameworks of the forward but the accolade GPL has far I can always do it you have other me right so 1st your your sliced through you can write exceptions for life to game right and the BGBl softer in which it picture specify OK uh ifyou Jimmy change to the soldier have to publish a cold but if you add these to around with all the libraries or or the framework you don't have that you can make license is yours to the soldier we have to have that on the gimp license because real-world known GB oblivious to be running it that was of mobile what I consider to be when my 1st the 1st 2 which is due to begin the community back intervals and for the 1st 5 gender glorified of have an area that may not have on L the GPL but you can make shorter behave as it was felt 80 GPL so the and that like to remember you we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for elections like GPL both corporations will get all the get the work they get there they'd like to think of resources free like indirect this of the point but it but there was another thing I just like to raise here and and and but maybe make a make calls by a similar 103 at other than than Web substance which are but the foremost where we cannot run also after you know Microsoft Windows original Internet Explorer unleashing you always School of major operating environment no always series of of over the with regret credit where can't get a shot addressed at all so cultural from top to bottom to top to bottom shows show should again in a major major examples here on the top of we can see from station and the Apple platform mock Macintoshes but all the ones on the bench no just I begin to run an and Belself softer infrastructure at all the potential of that store which is the only way for you to get subterranean this device I compatible with visual relations at all just on the 1st term on GBL say she can run softer even if you have the latest license in terms of this with initial through their ways of the law you can run the softer the 1st on on the episodic terms of use you can't from the softer but on a computer you bought so thank you that's that's definitely true is 1 of the ones that come forward movement completely uh but this point in just the speed of hardware and JavaScript engines has made it possible to do things that were possible 3 years ago that made that may bring us the ability to the restaurant the same with the network if network speeds keeping up it takes a lot it's a lot more bits to arrested images over the Internet obviously but the other thing that is relevant for free software projects is that you have to store a lot of this on a server somewhere and for-profit companies are going to do that directly to that of the losing money a lot of people will give you a gigabyte or 2 gigabytes of storage Hussein give you 200 gigabytes to edit video online probably nobody may be wrong about that but if you're talking about a nonprofit world of open source project is not interested in making a profit on storage that's something as possible I have 2 questions from the audience is 1st we I just want to quickly to react because maybe 3 different questions and well that I think the same was true in the complete beginning with free software and mailing lists and forums and all this kind of infrastructure ants it's just a sign that we are not the 1 that thrilled to it that there are not that large but better source for sure short and of these hosting services don't provide the infrastructure for that so I think that's uh might change in the future and for example from my personal point of view I get all fish from companies to to to get unlimited access to servers and to do with well more what they want and even get an assistant to to configure them so if people like you work uh they were are willing to do this kind sponsor and I would also say that I mean as far as that reality comes around you know as as and it becomes realistic to me hundreds of cases of data storage come back to you to use such application domains can be very monetized cheese and stuff like Amazon Web Services to the Google App Engine they're offering reason is relatively small amounts of that the cheapest thing and then they let the rental prices kind of rock up as you get bigger most prices becoming come down and the dream based off is reverse slope of unlimited disk storage what is the end of this year and what I did I just close the book on the Internet saying only the server and I go to manufacture because you're cool but I think the other thing is that this would not just kidding OK I'm not I'm actually trying to get back to statements that to to the point where some at some of the by the impression that some for some reason you all seem to agree on that the browser as a platform to use because of schools or at our I don't actually see why the browser is such a desirable um platform because some I think that I think what's our or but about why that maps seem to be so important maybe I'm just an old fart puzzled by the time I think that this this puts you in a very specific environment they you maybe on start up have to download made up of of JavaScript unless you have cast them from the locally and I don't see it as that do that desirable I think that's an infinitival but once I state and what to do with applications to do with lots of data and about what I think is what is the incentive that makes people use actually use these applications like Facebook where you don't actually actually could have known from the very beginning that there is a privacy issue so I think the main problem them and maybe this can be detected in some way different than with brother applications as how to enable people to work to to exchange that attitude to I make it possible to work on a project together and if you think about companies will put their customers and Kobe docks and with lots of and the that very obviously is a problem even to exchange files locally so from 1 computer to the next 1 so and Google Docs as the solution at that point I think this is the point where it gets interesting and well we might have to think about the alternate alternative solutions you I mean I still really interesting and I think you're totally right about that I mean the desktop is a browser and if you think a little more abstractly about the concepts and is is a browser already right I mean that this this wiki reader seen it's a little odd 99 dollars to out guys media the open open broker the OpenMoko I but it's the end ending that's another form of browser right and I The other thing I've been in Peru interested in this idea of delay tolerant networks and I think this also shows another problem right we we we when we get on an airplane nominal right you guys it is I open my laptop and I just showed it again it's like it's like
useless to me without it being on the network so I think that we have to look at this and look at this this problem in in in in also look at why is it that Google Docs and suffers services been useful what's the problem has been solved there's less features but there's some people can work together that's the great thing OK how can we make that better and that's it in a little more abstract I I like to to give a comment on that because I think that it was a very good question uh what we see in open-source role is that we are moving more through distributed systems like distributed version control well before its subversion and Google boxes for me more kind of like Subversion even if you can collaborate so I think the BitTorrent protocol is is a good example of how you can swap a lot of that around and the modern people share the better it works so people often think it's a blocker but it's if you if you take the the like BitTorrent all source technologies we have proven that there is an alternative and about the bright lights important we also moved to that application this if we if free software is not moving to that and leave it up to other companies well then a I would like to have a we we say when we talk about 3 we free has got these honestly but having now there's a kind of 1st meaning free and privacy as well and if we we don't offer solutions which don't raise privacy issues uh then I think this is will be the you'd selling point not because it's free and because it doesn't cost anything because people like it because it's free for the privacy you that also brings up a good point about the BitTorrent protocol because he never been peer-to-peer development was superactive hyperactive and then companies that were building running getting student oblivion and now it's like how long is BitTorrent protocol been basically standard I think it's a good example of how the legal infrastructure that's not solved or at least is that social network a behind something like GPL can there could be a chilling effect that are created so there's not innovation so that's actually I wanted to comment on in the more slowly and I want to remind you go Hope English of logic rat 3 years ago he pixels net it was about 6 I think today if you go to the store and buy a program you get kicked in and of itself and this is also growing with the martial there will always be a slot for application that will not be on the web and this is their prostrating began editing and some things that require direct contact with the hardware some things that don't fit netbooks self it's just that a chilling reminder that Moore's life both ends of the scale I think I would like to say that I don't want to give the impression that I think all software should be replaced cloud-based I just think that certain software is ideal to do so and like well as he said I have I had the readiness Fiji 10 years ago and now it's much more possible because of the the speed so certain things will become possible certain things might never become possible I don't see quickly running in a web browser but um I'm not I'm not in favor of I have here but I I don't if we have I don't think we're all in favor that every being everything should move to the cloud of to the web come up and I would so a say this is physicists this um of thing about significant LibraryThing will fit in that in that but that's true of and on the other hand I I some of my friends you working is like cable programs banks and what they're doing they could've been doing lately 4 years ago and and it's exactly the same and the amount of people who doing that for years ago was everyone and now it's a very very very small part of the computing industry and uh I think that's really what it's significant that the majority of people switching their computing being done on these on a power devices but with the Webster and therefore the free so what if the free software movement is to enable deliver freedom to computer users that it's going to have to deal with people who read using that kind of technology and ask me I think for the majority of the popular computer there always absolutely can be the specialized cases by using more in a traditional computing environments is is always going to be the way to go but I think that the more popular computing after has gone to the and people's freedoms can be respected the environment that yeah that's that's has and I agree with many of the things you've been saying and going back to like John ask what is the thing that's being solved by these applications and some all I think calls and go back to Africa degree withstand said that the of uh innovation in use of the user interface is happening on the web what the Web's doing is that basically it abstract you totally away from things like the file system which like in a way OS's are still like super old fashioned in a way that you have to remember a like OK which director didn't put that in each is 1 that would have if you have a picture you just wanna put it somewhere you know just this is a picture and then faced Google put in the pictures they're like you Ulysses isn't your friends you just put it in a big box of staying there forcing them to your friends you don't have to remember where to put it how to deal with and I think that's the challenge for a desktop and I also believe that this distributed around the paradigm is in I think we need to build technical like that on on this very advanced technology that's already there protocols thing that that technologies like versioning and the fact that every Linux computer is basically a full server like this technology was developed as something which is a big thing of the tiny things now we have it in every tiny thing and so I think the challenges for the desktop to abstract away from all this underlying technology and enable this sort of that distributed computing that's happening on the web and also then get away from your computer as this sort of a unique container of you're at that and I think that needs to be more lexical more distributed or like you could have like your own computer and then automatically sync it to your server in the cloud and then set up scripts that push it through all the service you want use stuff like that I think that should be the focus yeah it is accounted for that and even made uh has been talking last couple speeches that he's given at the published online about about this idea about anything itself and their diesel computers article cheater plugs that maybe I think that's a commercial brand names of and the idea is that these these there's a tiny little machines which have the power supply from inside the cases 1 unit just plug into a wall socket and you can stick in our table and and In its set many separable forwarding when out but then you have this this set which is physically in your home and you can still your private data on your private so in your eyes and so if anyone wants to access that data then they have to get 120 a house rather than just asking the family by state to hand over and I think that there is a group there's real possibility that guy's going be of what this distributed freedom respecting privacy respecting compute popular computing environment looks like when you have a very on the power the mobile phone computer and of the power of becoming amazingly powerful and continue the emitted from any of several you 100 we'll data on the content of the donor probe surface in your own home is fire like you might use everything else alerted about an interesting project where you can share your hard drive the friends and it backups distributed but then cryptid so your friends cannot reach about that but it's there so in case something happens you have a 5 program or something you can excessive that then you can be corrected home and then 1 other thing I wanted to say to you is that it also who underlines with having these various web services what we're actually doing on the services themselves and OK if you're being distracted all the time OK we have advertising right google the facebook now as as OK with Twitter now basically the plan is to inject ads inside of this
stream right so now this this eye color real-time addiction busy many have is 2nd son was like a disease it's it's formula you right clicking clicking clicking clicking clicking I think we have we have a real chance to build something meaningful as well just like we have in this room we have a chance to build a kind of slow FI technology and so while also like urging and I think world looking at this is OK this is a really active area of investment will set look at the longer trajectories well of how we can build something that's lasting and look how long it's taken for the free software foundation and there are 2 Richard Stallman to build and Unix right how long does it take it not even done right it's a big project so he was set to start chipping away at it and looking at how we can innovate and build something meaningful just a small component all the stats you could call a shared ready to go to 0 the AppStore shareware store the distraction 1st order CF remember that the new is not you next from about but principally so violent jumble must much with my nervousness and but the way that I think about the the GPL mechanical where that can about is of basically use know guide I was discussing that people were being asses in and they would need the there examples of it and others of example virus software and you know released for freedom of modified and they don't get back now as prevalent has something to do nearest this number nice and certain waterways this this licenses kind being like all of them being asked the vast takes answer and and I see that the laughter GPL-based being very similar but it's true easier bogged down can we we use of it and whether near the spices is compatible with that are not as something that that matters so it does matter in a practical sense but in the water social issues and something make such Shiffrin's but that said taking way to answer so yeah that's what just relaxed depressed I so as as developers there's kind of a different sense of of of what it is for someone to can of be a nasty right if I if I'm a developer having robust offers us a lot different than someone who uses that's often like as a user I don't really care so much better as a blunder user example and is not so critical to me whether or not the code is actually open and and it's really more about the the the developers and carry on outside I think there's a lot of practical than issues that that uses recognize nothing privacy is actually a really big 1 and I think perhaps is more important to tackle this from a social standpoint you look at how the or a new treats people who share files right it is like a lot of people recognize like the assets and we like that Facebook and violating people's privacy and entering assets and the organ recognizes and something that people can can connect to so maybe focusing on on how it's really impacting users on contents of the real the real level for them would be a good way to go about this because as developed 9 I'm not much of a developer but as developers we really only have so much power and a lot of a lot of the power for the social change is going to come from users not developers so maybe however the microphone on yeah right it's it but it does come down the power of the the the user and on what what can 1 person do and often jaded about this but it you if you want to make big changes in the world right now you really have to have capital in and you have to have you have to have capital and you have to have some kind of of interesting problem to solve but I I really believe that you have to have some form capital of services for enough from registering is given there is this large was we have a huge world of people that use software and there's a lot of issues right now they're actually very tied into our these these problems of of suffer getting very closed on the server side on and there's a lot of and these these use privacy is is a really big 1 is something that a lot people actually are very pissed off at us a lot of people and and this is the and may tapping into that like finding what people are actually angry about with the existing set up and I think it's it's 1 of the things the the sad part is like what is it takes the take like Facebook to become a major corporation enlightened low down a country you know like and that is to wait right In the like like Night right like OK they have 98 d it would it take OK nite use running sweatshops they release cycle area uh you what is the word you UGC User Generated Content portal next thing you get is nite I love sweatshops on the IGAD issues that were customize individuals are making these that's too late I just like to comment on that as aspect of the GPL license that's 1 way of looking at it wireless looked at it's that it's about building community like if you look to the GPL license is BSD license and the community which had built around that I think why Linux as communities much more bigger and successful is because of the GPL license and it's something you cannot realize as as a user and I agree that the user it doesn't matter for a for of them but also for a lot of the importing skip uses it doesn't really matter but behind the scenes it puts in a process which builds a community I think the message I've been hearing full past our about licensing is that we need tighter licenses to and stopped organizational repentance salt and OK that's a fair enough latitude and also during the past 4 days been hearing how wonderful Python is and I just wonder how many people here would be using Python if it were not for the fact that it was produced not by somebody who is supported by a massive capital and capital and so forth but also it was released on a very unrestricted license and and I just wonder whether perhaps with joltingly the playing rather in 1 direction in this discussion there was 1 question maybe that's a good 1 to respond to this really talking about Python will actually to say that you have a thing that's a bit out of place and of course we're talking about the idea and the way here but since we were talking about how these will affect the development of desktop applications and how shift is happening let's not forget that this it's kind of a very Western view where we're always connected and like you said it's really tough sometimes when we who are always connected people do not have network let's not forget that there's a huge amount of people that really do not have access to it and that's kind of the same mistake as when computers have enough graph had enough graphical power that command lines would become obsolete and in and then and I think just for perspective on what might happen maybe some quantum revolution or fiber-optics thing comes along and everyone gets internet access maybe you get a diplomatic crisis and the Internet goes down and have no idea but in the end I think it's not issue about this the publications moving to the way it's not an issue of data bandwidth or a lower are there any other kind of approach is it's just it's not it's it's been regard this as shift because that's a corporate you but I think that's as free software developers and as people who want to develop a critique of these notions it's just in addition to suspect that's been growing and nothing that's happening right now will be obsolete by this move that by opening give impression that we're saying that this stuff is didn't realize that I have is just this is something interesting to talk about because all the crude people are and this is an interesting new space and you know you can do everything on the Web or what people wanna do stuff and so this 1 to open that up for for discussion is looking caring close the discussion at least get here behind the table thank you very much here