New directions in visual storytelling
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Transcript: English(auto-generated)
00:01
Thank you very much. Thanks for coming out. One thing that makes me really happy looking at this audience is that Ivan did a speech yesterday, and we are many more people today.
00:24
Thank you, BJ. I appreciate the vote of no confidence. Yeah, good morning. It's wonderful to have you all come listen to us today. We're very excited to have a chance to talk about this discussion because both of us are extremely passionate about these issues,
00:40
about questions of how we present and show stories and pictures and documentary. I think we're going to start by giving you just a short introduction as to why it is that we got interested, respectively got interested in this subject, and then we're going to have a conversation. We're going to show you some pictures. We're going to talk a little bit about some trends that we see online,
01:02
and we're going to show you some platforms and some examples of some really interesting work. So, as we all know very well, I think at this point, the story of how digital media technologies are changing distribution, supply and demand of media,
01:20
and that has, of course, affected the documentary and the photojournalistic field as well as everything else. And both of us respectively noticed quite some time ago that the dominance of a still image has been eroded by the fact that we have an abundance of images coming from everywhere around the world.
01:42
I think, for instance, that the last time a professional documentary photographer or photojournalist had made an image that had an effect on world policy was probably 1994. It was probably Srebrenica or Somalia. And we still see that images, still individual images around the world,
02:01
have a huge effect in terms of what kind of, or have the potential to have a huge effect on world events and the kind of ambitious ideal scope for how images can play a role in an ideal way in a documentary world. But the last time that that happened was probably Abu Ghraib in Iraq, and that was made by a citizen or a soldier in that case.
02:22
And it's sort of just a numerical fact that any given one image that's made in the world today, as likely as not, is going to come from a citizen rather than a professional. So what does that leave in terms of the art and the craft of professional photography, documentary filmmaking? What's left?
02:43
So one of my mantras is stop taking photos, start telling stories. I think the difference, the fundamental difference right now is not what kind of camera and all that stuff you have in your hands, but what you do with it, how you think about stuff
03:00
when you go out and shoot photos, and if you're thinking about an actual story and have a mission with what you do. So to get into a little bit of what we're writing on our slide, what's happening right now, I think there's several things that we want to get into in terms of tools.
03:21
So there's all these new tools emerging that's going to make it much easier for our non-tech people to be creative, basically, and to do these stories. And the second thing is that there's a lot of initiatives sort of setting content free and helping communities connect with each other and helping you publish stuff.
03:42
So just to get into the first thing, the tools stuff. So I think most of us know about this fact that everybody can have access to the tools now, and you have software, you have cameras and all these things, and everybody has that,
04:03
and that's kind of leveled the whole playing field. And the second thing is that everybody can publish also, so there's all these platforms that gives you a challenge to the world, basically. So like we said, the third thing which I think is really interesting
04:29
is how content is becoming really shared, and there's different parts of this. So one is these APIs, and if you're not really a tech geek, API means Application Programming Interface,
04:43
and basically it's a way to look into a database and take whatever is there. So all these databases of content are becoming really open at the moment, so you can take stuff from YouTube and Facebook and all over and mash it up into stories and create your own stories with this content.
05:01
The other part of it is the legal part, but we have organizations like Creative Commons, for instance, working on opening content and making it easier to share on the legal side of things. And it's sort of a move consistent of all these different aspects,
05:23
so the APIs are opening up the databases, then there's tagging and categorizing of all these things, so the metadata basically on the media is becoming much better, and of course the whole blogging community is part of driving this culture of tagging.
05:44
And then you have some search technologies that I'm proving, obviously Google and Apple and others are buying up technologies and working on developing new technologies, for instance, face recognition stuff, so if you know how somebody looks, you can search and find other photos of that person.
06:01
And then there's the licensing legal part with Creative Commons as the big driver of that. So all these things are emerging and making content really open. So there's the mix of the access to the tools and the open content. So obviously that leaves us in a space that's really changing.
06:23
It's changing two things mainly. It's changing the idea of who is actually doing the storytelling, I mean, what is a journalist and what is the role. Sometimes we're doing, we're just watching, sometimes we're participating, and it's changing how the stories are done,
06:41
so sort of the form or the aesthetics of stories. And so a lot of the images and the slides that BJ just talked about are about the supply side, they're about how we make something. We recognize that supply is abundant. The other side, of course, is the demand, and that is two things.
07:03
That's an idea of how we imagine who our audiences might be or who we're talking to or who we're participating with. And so it's both a question of, if you're trying to reach a mass audience, how you might think about doing that and thinking about what kind of community you're building
07:21
around the stories that you're telling, because these tools can also be used for small communities. They don't need to be for mass audience, though it's true that a lot of people, especially on the professional side, when they're building platforms and tools in this way, are envisioning a way of re-achieving a mass audience.
07:40
And as we know, sometimes things go viral and you can have a project that you put online and 12 million people will watch it or you can have a project and nobody will watch it and it's really hard to know what that's about unless you have a pretty clear idea of what your community is. And so it's not just about tools, it's also about building social networks, it's also about building context. And what we're seeing is dozens of projects and experiments
08:03
and startups that are thinking about various applications and instances or iterations of this kind of idea, how to build a platform, how to gather a community around it. So basically what I'm showing on the screen right now is the old model. So you had a pile of content, assets, video, photos, text,
08:25
all that stuff that were produced by professionals, journalists, call it what you want, publishers. And you had some gatekeepers which were deciding basically how to put stuff together and publish it and the rest of us were just viewers, we would be fed by the stuff.
08:42
The future thing is more like this. So you have a pile of assets and like I say, the APIs, the Creative Commons, the search and all that stuff is making it accessible. And then around that you have all these different participants and it's the different roles,
09:01
like one person can have different roles, I mean we can all have different roles depending on how we engage at that particular time. So sometimes I can just be a viewer, I can be viewing stuff, sometimes I can be a creator, sometimes I can be remixing something I see, I can be curating things.
09:20
In a way, all these new social networks are curation, Pinterest is a curation platform. And then of course there's also just engaging in other ways, like commenting on things, and it's all become really, really fluid. So the role of how you engage with the content is fluid,
09:43
but also the idea of pro and non-pro is pretty fluid as well, because sometimes you might just be shooting a story for yourself, but then it might bridge into a pro project and so on, and that whole thing is pretty fluid.
10:03
So let's get into a few examples. So this first one is Getty Moodstream, so it's a pretty good example of the use of these APIs, looking into a database. So in this example, Getty just did an interface for their own database,
10:22
and you can do a few settings. Let's see if it starts here. So you can set what kind of parameters you want for your stories, if it should be sad, or you can see all these nostalgic, contemporary, warm, cool, and choose if you want photos or videos,
10:40
and you just click a button, and then it starts generating the story based on your preferences. So it's not really storytelling per se, but I think it's a really interesting example of how you can mash up things and how you become sort of a remix or a creator of stuff.
11:03
So now it's generating away, and actually it's a pretty funny thing because it shows this monkey that's kind of sad because it said it to be a little bit sad, and this stuff shows up. So it's going to show a whole stream of video clips and photos, and it does also have audio on it. But it points to something in a very basic way,
11:25
which is that this is a very different way of constructing a story. It's not your typical linear narrative in a documentary form. It's based on a set of categories and a set of data, and organizing that data according to essentially an algorithmic process. And there's a lot of experiments in the aesthetics
11:43
of interactive documentary or interactive multimedia which are about trying to establish other terms. And it actually comes out of the art world, that kind of notion that we can build stories based on kind of structurally assigned ideas that will then allow us to think differently about our own moods or ourselves in this case.
12:02
And that's the reason that this is especially fascinating for me. And we don't have audio. That makes it a little...
13:08
So this is 18 Days Egypt. They essentially did the same thing as Getty Moodstream, but just with everything online. So they built an interface where you can go
13:20
and pull in things from YouTube and Facebook, all these different social media channels that were obviously playing a big part in the Egypt revolution. And so they've created a sort of storytelling creation tool for people that want to collect all this different content and create new stories.
13:42
And one of the interesting things in this promotion video is also the type of people that are contributing with their cell phones and all these things. And I think it showcases pretty good the sort of change from a traditional journalist role.
14:00
I have a journalist background and I do think there are some mythologies in journalism that's really working well and that's interesting to sort of teach new participants. But I also think there's a lot of darkness in traditional journalism that's really great to get rid of, like angling stories in particular ways
14:22
or this whole idea of timing and that you always have to hook it into a special event. Also, traditional media have this really short attention span. It was something you were talking about yesterday. So they go in with reporters, cover something, go to the next thing. And with all these things, you can create longer-term scopes, basically.
14:44
Yeah, I mean, stories like this have a temporality that expands in its own space, in its own virtual space. And it sets a frame, but it doesn't insist on a storyline. And so the interactivity here is that the aesthetic of a narrative story is open-ended and it allows the people who are participating
15:03
to decide the direction of the story for themselves based on their own histories. And we see a lot of projects like that that are saying, well, look, why should there only be one narrative? Why should there be a traditional journalistic narrative that's dictated by an editor? Let's see how else we might be able to structure our stories.
15:21
So the one thing is changing people's abilities to do stuff and changing the role of people. And the other thing is changing the actual storytelling. So again, the old model used to be you had a beginning and an end, and it was more or less linear. I mean, even in books and websites, you had front pages and sub-pages. And in movies, you just start at one place.
15:43
Of course, if you have a TV, you can zap with your remote control, but it was more or less linear. And in the future, it's more like this. So you have a beginning, and you can choose multiple directions. You have multiple layers sometimes in the story, so you can have a top layer that's maybe really short
16:01
and angled on one specific interest. But then you can dive deeper into certain sections of the story if you want to do that. So again, to show a few examples, this is National Film Board of Canada. This is called Bear 71.
16:22
I want to say a few things about it. So this is a documentary that focuses on one part of a national park in Canada that has been completely surveilled and fenced in and controlled in order to manage the bear population. And the documentarians made a film
16:42
by tapping into the CC cameras and also mapping the topography of the space and then inserting the viewer into the platform and into the mapped topography so that you can travel through the film through a range of passages
17:01
based on your own set of interests following the cameras. And it's a devastating film. It has a little intro here, which is sort of linear and very traditional documentary, just to set the scene. So basically, it introduces this one bear, which is Bear 71, that you follow.
17:22
And then if I move on to the next thing, this is where the interactivity comes in. So you can see that throughout the mapping, throughout the topography, it gives you both a shape of the land. Bears and humans here live closer together than any other place on Earth.
17:42
That explains the radio caller constantly beeping my location to some ranger playing god. There are 15 remote sensing cameras in my home range, plus infrared counters and barbed wire snags to collect my hair. I call it the grid.
18:02
I live around a town called Canmore, in the Bow River Valley. Now Canmore is here. So the film is narrated by the bear, by the way.
18:20
But you, as a viewer, are navigating through the same space that the bear is. So it has a curious role, a curious effect of... Bears and humans here live closer together than any other place on Earth. It has the curious effect of making the subject
18:40
of the film, the narrator, the bear, and putting you in exactly the same place. And I urge you all to go watch it online and participate in it, because it gives you a substantial amount of control in terms of deciding the narrative flow. But at the end, the end is always determined in a certain, fascinating way. National Film Board of Canada is a really good place to go
19:02
to see some of these things. They're fueling a lot of new, very interesting projects. So the next project I want to show is a British NGO that did a YouTube-based movie, actually, to try to get kids in the UK to not carry weapons,
19:20
especially knives. So let me just put the sound back on. And this is an aesthetic that's based on gaming.
19:45
So you can choose what you do, and depending on your choices in the movie, there are several points where you can choose stuff. You get different outcomes. What's interesting is that it's made on YouTube. YouTube introduced a few years ago these very simple ways of annotating videos
20:02
so you can have buttons like this appear. It's quite a hack and tricky to make, but I think it's interesting because YouTube essentially just replicated an old model which was linear video, but now they're actually starting to tweak it a bit, because there is a creative demand for doing these things.
20:21
And because the online medium basically caters to interactivity. Next one. This is another Canada film book.
20:46
So I'll just turn it off a little bit.
21:30
But this is another Canada film book story. It's about a little village, and it's basically a story about rural Canada.
21:41
But what I really like about it is that it has a really personal voice, and it uses interactivity in a subtle way. You can move through different tiles, and you have things on each tile that does stuff. And I think generally these productions that sort of have a personal voice to them work really well.
22:01
It's also interesting because it has a really curious play on the future of the book, and it's a great melding of website, film, and book, because it has a narrative structure that allows you to turn pages and it allows you to open into spaces in that kind of linearity. But at the same time, within those pages
22:21
there's video and text, and it's all happening in a way that allows the viewer to click on different parts of it and to navigate not just through the linearity of the book itself. So it's a wonderful example of how we take these old aesthetics that are based on different technologies and play with them. It's called Welcome to Pinepoint, by the way,
22:41
if you can't see the URL there. So you can go and Google it. Yeah, when you have access to Wi-Fi. Just saying. So just a few words about the next steps. So basically we've talked about how the assets and the media and the tools
23:02
is becoming a commodity. So everybody have a camera, everybody have the channels, and we're more and more gaining access to a pool of cool content. So where the hard part lies, but also the part where you can actually make a huge difference,
23:20
is in the actual storytelling and reaching a community, reaching people that want to actually see what you do. So the cool stuff is here, I've said. But the storytelling is where we started. It's about your mission and what you want to achieve with going out and shooting videos or photos.
23:41
But it's also about how you put together the end product. It's a lot with the interface and the design. I think a lot of the examples we've shown here has been these really cool packages where they really put a lot of thought into the personal voice and the aesthetics of the story.
24:01
And that's the hard part to do. The hard part is not shooting and collecting stuff. The hard part is refining it into an experience and a story. Maybe you want to say a bit about the community. Yeah, I think on the community side, the important thing about storytelling is not just telling a story that's based on your own experience, of course,
24:21
or something out of your own imagining, but we all tell stories with an understanding of who we're talking to. And it's kind of sometimes easy to forget that idea. And one of the things that's great about the coming tools that are being built that are based on broad access is that you'll be able to build stories
24:41
for the communities that you care about. So without necessarily a lot of technical knowledge and thinking about beforehand, I'm going to make something that lasts just a minute, and I care about my family having it, and that's all. And then if somebody else sees it, that's great. Or you can spend a year and a half building something like Welcome to Pine Point
25:01
and something that's really elaborate and really involved in terms of creative process. There are also really interesting platforms for education. And because while we say, of course, that it's possible and that the content's easy, it's still not necessarily the easiest thing in the world to take a good picture. So a lot of these tools are also really useful
25:20
for sharing or disaggregating educational platforms and having peer knowledge and peer learning within the framework of communities. And I think a lot of groups that are focused on education are going to be using these technologies as well. So yeah, I basically think the creativity
25:41
and the content is there, but we're still missing a little bit of some really good tools to do all this interactive stuff. It's something that's been a big issue for me all along. I mean, I learned to hack a little bit of Flash myself and so on, and just out of necessity because you needed to do this in Flash. Now it's JavaScript and HTML, and it's really difficult.
26:02
It's really a barrier if you come from a creative content background. But I think the next wave in this whole field is going to be a huge amount of different tools that allows you to put together the stories, but also, as Ivan is saying, reach communities that can help you
26:21
evolve as a storyteller and give you an audience. It's also things like funding. So there's a whole crowdfunding track at this conference, and I think what Kickstarter and others are doing is really amazing and very interesting. It's something we discussed at Magnum way, way back, and I saw a big opportunity for that, but we just didn't have the funds
26:41
to build a whole platform to crowdfund what we were doing. But now Kickstarter is doing it, and Magnum's Larry Towell did a project last year, and I know there's others doing projects where they're raising funds for their documentary photography, so that's really interesting. Maybe you want to show some of the story plans back there. Yes, so I took the consequence of my huge, huge annoyance
27:04
of having to always deal with Flash coding and spending hours, and then I discovered that I had a punctuation mark that needed to be swapped with something else, and then it was working. It finally led me to build a tool, because I was waiting for somebody to do a cool tool, and nobody really did it,
27:21
so in the end I decided to do it myself. And this is the point where I was supposed to go online and actually give you a demo of Story Planet, but we're not online here, even though it's a tech conference.
27:42
However, I do have some... So we'll show you something very basic. We'll show you some images instead. So BJ's project is called Story Planet, and it's in beta right now, but while he's setting this up, I'll tell you the names of a couple of others. There's a browser-based video editing project called Stroom, S-T-R-O-O-M-E.
28:03
There's another browser-based managing platform like this called Klint, K-L-Y-N-T. You know, if you actually spell a word properly in the Internet world, then you're just a loser, so I have to spell everything out for you, because there always has to be an extra letter somewhere.
28:23
There's another project coming out of Harvard's design school called Zega, Z-E-E-G-A, named after Zega Vertov, that probably is coming out later this year. There's a half dozen communities that we can talk about once BJ's finished showing his presentation.
28:40
So we're in sort of a closed beta mode right now, but you can go to storyplanet.com and sign up to become a beta tester, and within the next month or two, depending on our test phase, we're going to open it up to more people. But basically, the idea or the interface is two things. It's a grid where you can build stories out of tiles,
29:03
so you can place these tiles in the grid and build a structure, and it corresponds to a player where you can navigate left, right, up, and down, so you can build any kind of structure within this grid. You can have parallel tracks that you can jump between. You can have something completely linear,
29:21
or you can have tracks that have side branches on them. You can have different islands and link between them, so it's pretty flexible. And then if you click a tile, you can open it up in this canvas-based editor that's pretty similar to Keynote or PowerPoint or InDesign, for those of you who work with that stuff.
29:42
So it's basically a place where you can pull in all these different things, video clips, photos. You can do texts and create a layout. So within each tile, you can drop an entire movie that you make in another context as well. So each tile could be a single image or it could be an entire film, so it gives you a lot of flexibility
30:01
to go both within the product very deeply and also horizontally. And we're working with the idea of these apps, so you can have, let's say you wanted to ask for money from Kickstarter within your story. We have a Kickstarter app that you drag to your canvas and do a few settings,
30:20
and then people can actually donate to you. It could be a lot of different other kinds of apps, and we're opening it up for third-party developers. So if you do have a really crazy idea, you can develop your own app. You don't have to develop everything from scratch. So that's the basic idea, basically.
30:41
I wish I could have shown it live. Now spend all this time and money building it, but I can't show it here. So we have a few minutes left for questions or comments, and we'd love to hear what you think. Microphone coming this way, or are you passing them around?
31:09
Yeah, yeah, please. Let's go for some questions.
31:22
Okay, so I guess the setup is that people have to come up to this microphone to do a question. Is that right? All right. Okay. I mean, if you want, you can also just shout, and we'll try to. Okay. We got the first one. We got one guy here. Hi, good morning. Good presentation.
31:40
Have you tried any? Yeah, give him a hand. I do multimedia productions for 20 years now, and I'm also missing proper authoring tools,
32:02
but my question would be have you tried e-book builders, or have you heard about the news that Adobe director will be able to transfer their productions in the future to iOS and stuff like that? I mean, it's a different publishing and distributing model, but as a storyteller and going for pro, I mean, you want to get some money for it,
32:21
and I mean, it's a different model if you go for public and have some assets, but if you spend a lot of time, I think it's an interesting tool that you will provide, but have you looked and experienced other stuff that, as I said, iBook reader software is coming out, so kind of between book and multimedia,
32:41
something in between and having a distribution platform, et cetera. Have you got any experience in that direction? Well, I think, you know, a lot of the tools are really becoming much better at exporting to different formats and all that stuff, and you can do iPad apps using the Flash IDE
33:01
and stuff like that, but I think there's different sort of, there's different types of projects, so there's some really high-end projects that's always going to be done in coding, be it Flash or HTML or whatever, and you can never create a really easy-to-use tool to cater to that scenario.
33:20
You're always going to be able to do more specialized, cooler things with coding, but then there's a huge pile, and then there's some really, really simple projects which is just editing a slideshow in an easy-to-use slideshow builder, but then there's a huge middle part, which is stories where you might not have the skills or the budget to hire a coding team,
33:44
but still you have some ideas that are creative, and you have some ideas of creating something more than just a video or a slideshow, and that whole middle ground, I think, is what misses tools now, and that's what we're trying to hit with Story Planet, is to make it really easy to do something that gets you 80% of the way if you were using Flash,
34:03
but it's just much faster and easier. And we also note that a lot of those kinds of tools, Adobe is really expensive, and especially once we get outside of the developed world when we're talking about making sure that people from all over the world can tell their stories, if you've got browser-based tools or tools that are lightweight or free or nearly free,
34:21
then we'll give access to people who don't have the resources to purchase those kinds, that kind of equipment. I think you also really want a tool where you can pull in media from everywhere, YouTube everywhere, and then you can publish it to everywhere, so all kinds of devices, web, all that stuff, and I think a lot of Adobe and others
34:42
haven't traditionally been very good at that. I mean, I say traditionally, it's a new thing still, but, I mean, they're not really getting that still. All right. Yeah, I think, Ivan, you began to touch on sort of the question that I wanted to pose to you, which, or the both of you, rather, is that on one hand,
35:00
what are the more interesting cases you're seeing that are mobile and lower tech? The example of Egypt, you know, it could be a Nokia 2230, very basic bit of technology, or it could be an iPhone 4S, so meeting that broad spread of mobile, is there anything interesting you're seeing, Ivan?
35:20
And to you, Vijay, how critical is mobile in StoryPlanet, both at a creation point of view, so actually being able to create on the fly, and consumption, so someone created something in StoryPlanet, and here I am with any sort of device, you know, basic access, can I consume? Thanks. Yeah, I mean, I think mobile is really essential for us,
35:43
but we've started out sort of in another place, but the next component we're going to add is the consumption component, so being able to consume the stories on all different kinds of devices, but then you still have to create it in your browser, but the phase after that is creating on your phone,
36:03
which I totally want to do, especially for the Global South, because I've done storytelling projects in places like Vietnam, and they're totally mobile connected, but they've never seen a computer. Yeah, I mean, the short answer is camera phones are good and getting better all the time,
36:22
and for the purposes of small screen to small screen, it's more than adequate in terms of quality, and I think we will be seeing projects like that, especially linked to mapping, and there's a whole separate community that focuses on building maps and using maps as narrative tools, and there's a lot of development thinking about
36:44
linking SMS platforms onto mapping platforms and geolocating people and individuals and projects in that way as well. A lot of that is free, and a lot of it's coming out of Africa, in fact. Yeah, I spoke about it yesterday in my talk. Yeah, there we go. The challenge is actually the screen size,
37:02
because we can already now display our stories in all different places, but if you have a text page and it's designed for an iPad and you scale it down, I mean, photos and videos are one thing, but even just using titles or little things that you can add navigation elements become very different when you scale them down to phone size,
37:22
so for these kind of projects, the idea of just doing one design and scaling it to different devices doesn't really work, so that's the big challenge that we're trying to figure out. I think we have time for one more question. Yeah, you can just shout out.
37:51
Traditional media outlets, and they're very slowly only adapting parts of it, and not the whole bunch. I mean, you did Magnum in Motion,
38:00
and you know what it costs to produce stuff like this, or Brian Storm, what kind of money they put into creating those kind of stories, so what's the impact at the end of the day? So the question is, what's the impact? And we could have a whole other conversation about the idea of why one builds a community around, why communities gather rather than,
38:21
why communities gather around storytelling, and one of the interactive tools, or kind of interactive trends, is to offer people within the context of stories the opportunity to participate both and to act, and to get beyond that fairly traditional journalistic approach
38:41
of just telling the story and moving on. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, I do think that in the broader scope, and in the long scope of stuff, it does have an impact, it gives people an understanding, and it raises questions in your head, and makes you sort of think about the world in a way, but it's very hard to measure.
39:02
But I do see also these things still as generation one, and Magnum in Motion was very much generation zero in a way, we had a couple of internal missions, we needed to find a new way to fund stuff for Magnum, and that actually worked, we did create a new business model for Magnum with Magnum in Motion,
39:22
but there were a bunch of stuff we didn't achieve in terms of interactivity and community building and all those things, and for many different reasons, but so I think there's got to be a next generation that has more impact actually. And I want to add as well that the idea of building value,
39:43
educational value or outreach value to documentary is not a new idea. I started my media career 20 years working on long form documentary films, and we spent as much time pushing the products that we made into educational communities and toward policy communities to try to have an impact as we did making the films.
40:02
And so what's different here is whether or not there's actually technologies that make that kind of participation simpler and allow more people to engage it, but structurally the notion that within a certain aspect of a documentary community at least in the photojournalistic communities that one should be spending a lot of time thinking about
40:21
how to make those changes as well as making the product has been there for some time. The question is the ease with which we make those connections. Yeah, I mean, there's an overall shift in documentary that's not just connected to online, which is we all know by now what war looks like, for instance, so is there a point in just purely documenting and showing war?
40:44
I mean, in my opinion, no, we need to move above, beyond that. Well, that's the baseline. That's where we start. But that's a storytelling approach, and I do think that the whole online community building and all that stuff is pushing that direction, but it's also an overall thing.
41:02
Even if you're doing a book or an exhibition, you're still facing that challenge. I think we could have one last question, couldn't we? Anyone has it? Maybe there is no more questions. I think people want to get to lunch. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you very much for listening,
41:21
and I look forward to meeting you at the hall. Thank you.