How to make IT-recruiting suck less.

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How to make IT-recruiting suck less.
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Iwan Gulenko - How to make IT-recruiting suck less. I am a programmer and I am on a mission to make IT-recruiting suck less. This talk should be useful for both hiring managers and job-seekers. We will assess the status-quo of hiring engineers and talk about resumes, coding questions and tasks that firms make up to assess engineers. Also, we'll discuss salary negotiation best-practises from a candidate perspective.
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and everyone welcome to barrier to to listen to if even calling code I will talk about how to make i t recruiting so basically will have talk for about 25 certain minutes and then we'll be able to to share to ask questions of power and to have the discussion about what you have heard of it cool so high on the goal of this talk is essentially through on give some of you were hiring managers are chance to get inspiration how Our recruiting in your company and 40 years who are more candidates many seekers culture you tailor your profile in a way that companies will not overlook you so let's let's the so i'm an engineer and people often ask me why why would you recruiting by you do this job but often well I'm done with people who are non-technical who just match keywords and well and the reason is that there is many things to do just because of that and there are a couple of companies that are during already a very good
job on higher than 100 people are trying to reverse the process salt to make companies apply for engineers there is a star for a fight the IO essentially and their teaching in years for the stock market works and hold right sort in this space non bipeds McKinsey who is sort of famous on Hacker News also there is
interviewing I by using the there was a sort of like a Computer Science MIT during that has been doing technical recruiting for a couple of years in the bay area and now she has a platform where they area companies are matched with engineers and it's all about code so they have sort of a call the past and they do a algorithmic challenges that challenges in data structures and that even went so far that they was anonymized voice so it's not possible to see if it's a woman or a man interviewing
also this a bio from London they essentially had the the idea well let's come after the news what you want to do in your next job and in this case somebody said OK I want from them and UI UX and the company says look for it like UI UX person and and is like a shape and is much like over each other so you can see clearly on the interests of the engineer and the interest of the company so this is whole matching number which very good company then there is triple
bite Silicon Valley based Y Combinator start that recruits for other like start up so they essentially tell you well if you interview with us you will skip all the steps and run jump right to the final interview and drop box or while the whatever and this is definitely a super attractive offer for engineers because in my experience of literature I know that after 5 interviews there's a interview fatigue so you like tired and want to you like anymore so this company gives the value at that you kind of get off steps which is pretty my motivation is that
I believe that hiring is even more important in Europe because in Europe it's classifier hire and fire unintelligible like in the US so here if you hire somebody you really stick with the person and its the most important aspect in my opinion to have cool co-workers because I mean no matter how close project or product is that you were on at some point you lost in a way and the only thing that in my experience kept me going in where 2 co-workers my boss and the people I would hang up will spend more time with them with my spouse stuff like that so that's like something to keep in mind that there would be no research did you get involved with the interest in hiring process in your company no matter if you're a hiring manager a candidate don't let H hours like a job and don't take part in In the recruiting process in your company and will recruiter once told me that it will be a player is higher places for a post players where's the normal companies the players higher in minus ROC players so please and well don't do that because I believe it's kind of true that some companies and I I would really like to see that you invest a lot of effort in Twitter recruiting process right however on I would not recommend to copy the retrieval process of rule and asked to arms well spin well not like in all transfer trees into binary trees where the prime numbers of divisible by 3 or something like that because the big companies they can ask those questions because they have a revolving door of candidates because of the big brands anyway and you will come to them and don't like many many areas of these prism is to look at so they have a kind of prestige being such a big brands which your company probably does not have yet but don't be disappointed because prestige is just fossilized inspiration if you do anything well enough you make it stages but up until you're at this point you have to make your processes in which would thing in a way that are attractive to on engineers social what you have you have to have a big brand names but you may have a cold technology stack red oppurtunity to contribute soldiers especially junior engineers will of development well we need an API that does this and that we use in this internship Fremont you're going to build this for us this is in my experience the only way to get like will quality inference in your own no brand company to give them like a big chunk to work on and revive vastly increased so just talk yesterday 29 years and he said well the with like to companies and the 2nd 1 wanted like in 2 minutes and you stop sending resume to others so on as the hiring manager would you urge to do this as quick as possible to reply and the eigenvector people at this conference I saw 1 especially good example binder they have composers and on the right also used the the exactly the technology stack very clearly and on the left you see do you have what it takes to influence of product so the communicator OK you have called technology stack and you can contribute you don't say anything really about the product and what in doing whereas on the other posters if you go outside you have lots of you know more marketing-oriented are material which was clearly not designed for this conference where this poster is clearly Richard immaterial so if you get into the effort to really look out what you want and which kind of engineers you think you want to attract there is a list of programmer types are done by triple bytes becomes this sort of based on 10 thousand matches that they have done so they matched engineers were companies and then they looked at what are the differences and you get some kind of profiles that some of you might recognize solvent for instance there is the academic program so those are candidates who have spent most of their career in inconvenient programming is part of the master research they have very high intellect and use it to solve parts of programming problems so this kind of guys I usually ask if they can explain what it did to me basis to see if they ever have collaborated like what and not just rolled scripts to well bang out of research and published the paper there is extremely interesting program so those are candidates who have lots of experience and and talk in depth about different text text database thing the positive and negative with the when programming during interview there bit rusty usually get to the right place but it takes a lot so this is a place where probably all of us will end up in the the history of both both some of the young programmers are older but at 1 point will be there and I see on especially of small and middle-sized companies approach problems to really on behalf of the rolling over 15 to in the company and like to to different opportunity to continue right but I'll get back to that later on trial and error program for candidates who write code quickly hand me their approach seems to involve a lot of trial and error however the straight into programming and similar talk but the speed enables and tools and solve the problem of productive so this might be on early stage companies on that have more process in place and the people buying out called like really quick practical problem can be sold particles task which is you very abstract problems they are uncomfortable with CS terminology and have a deep understanding of and don't have the understanding how computers work they're not comfortable with stuff like C for this might be engineers work like prevent agencies child prodigy program Canada is very uh 19 years old decided to go straight into work skipping college have been programming since a very young age and very impressive and the ability to to solve hard problems they've also been prolific recite projects more mature for her age slightly below from the company in the future across Canada is performed very well on tech interviews will have and will have the respective other ingenious they're not motivated by solving tech problems however they want to think about the product customers and have an input into how public decisions are made for their like more oriented toward the customer and and and but also UI UX on issues the problem candidates are the inverse of products from the interview well and communicate clearly but they are not ready to think of all the you x or product since they want to sing the Tunisian hearts technical problem so the thing we
was find there is essentially something that was only like communication what's technical promote rather than product or in and those roles that we saw while triple provide in the very very huge study an infant algorithm is really like a lot they found all that like for programmers at least in Silicon Valley they are the all companies companies like most whereas the academic programmer is kind of bit in our I'm not sure if this applies completely to Europe because we are talking here about Bay Area start ups and neural that demand is a bit different and I'm thinking if it's worth made to do a similar study in Europe with companies that are more or less a normal
so we're together engineers so there are a couple of ways so if you're like a company that doesn't have a the brand name I recommend you have for instance of log of all technologies or about the in your city so I For instance when I moved to Zurich the 1st the thing I did on I I wrote a blog post was like a reasons when to Switzerland where can i t and this was like almost 2 years ago and I still get e-mails from people who are like a alone which very interesting to a great company so this is this blog post was the reason why felt I could start my directly company quite quickly so if you're a company and wherever as we commend to well into sort of an online presence of technology of course need ups and attending the depths where the teacher of your company or organizing the dentist better it's an obvious way to get like people interested in your company and so make this sourcing problem easier so like I mean the problem most most companies have is they don't have enough so you have to do as much as you can solve on referrals are underrated insult companies should pay or incentivize somehow if somebody brings in great people source of windows so she joined with the 1st thing they do is like they force you to spend your classmates or stuff like that the other Miller heard from some people on did not as some obvious way also to get engineers so if you if you like using our flask a lot then it would be great to see you know I just look at the profile the people who contribute their and get them on board this is the problem of like
location so you can formulate queries like this so that a little bit so you can use like the API to query for all of pixel and they get question and the truth see from the back side API developed search users location mobile language Python and on then you get the engineers who are like evolve that through from
so and and don't be evil don't spam them rather a look at the quark and if you send the called male try to make it personalised and interesting for them to read so like as a side project I
did sound like gods that the
result of lack of we will like a web interface they should do this only bigger like an old jealous period thank you love and then you go yeah find engineers nucleic and
then you get like what you saw before like nicely displays and then I yeah you can I mean look
got what of the people that before and stuff like that so and that's my legs project cycle of length 2 to choose the and now I tried to correct combination between like automation of manual work in our so right now I have a lot of manual work in theory and instead of in Munich and I will just build are more and more also like tools in Python to well made on the of the API and the cool stuff that again without trying to evil yeah so if you conduct of the people on would be great and like to learn how to reach out on a great example of that I just on and I
looked up all my all hot right and undermined quickly so that's a very very very cool company and they send the cold males In this called male it's like not sure tho it's rather long but you going was like so I'm the cofounder of our and ingenuity you to trial at 1st line to get in touch and to well with the same so not notwithstanding the intruder who who just spoke stamps and all the people but rather on this a while while I usually try to make this part like personalized and here it's rather say my personalized I would say it's like a a chemical website and based on your experience I think it would be a great fit for us so that the blame on when when I do this males I try to really look at the block in the Flickr somebody else of block and evolved longer expressions in Java 1 . 8 I tried to tell them OK with the company also use Java 1 grenade and also well you care about this and that would be really agreed on so it's a bit less claim the 1st line should be something meaningful and and you tell me what the company does and what the Canada Canada
of for years and this mail this company read the whole male is actually pretty good on and they development of the city all and shoulder-length like 30 people interested in and then they made students send all those e-mails to scalar knowing that the
those pretty efficient timely and then what you do so you have to go the candidate and you probably want to get to know themselves through a phone interview so in a phone interview the goal is like to really find out the candidate cannot do anything so you ask questions that are like everybody should be able to answer like the famous visible challenge where you just from the numbers 1 to 100 and divide them by the divided by 5 so let's In stuff to like get rid of the people who obviously can't do anything that would be important and efficient and and then you give a homework assignment which should be like 10 days how but rather maybe 2 hours of pre hours and this you can use to on their head on side of talk about the homework and also on top of that given maybe small arms coding assignments that you can do with their programming to see if the person fits into the company in the way they work so on I generally use see demos of successful companies in which we think they try to spend with the candidate as much time as they can so as a candidate what can you do I mean obvious way is to have a very clear is immediate kind of red resonates with the community so on people however we resume is all the pilots it's really I mean I think the average spanned by each other people and even hiring managers is maybe less than a minute so that would be great to are made of really short so like a page for a decade will say this something that was reasonable and contribution is more important than text and framework so like showing how you contributed to the product the company or project rather more important than if you use like this that framework however there is the problem with age 5 so if there is a bigger company and if there is a giant ball you always will get the problem that you have to go to this for the 1st and then you have lot the mention some frameworks such that they wanted to the firing the worst case my experience is when like the great engineer doesn't have awarded the hiring and just because the keywords are missing like that's really really terrible and should not happened at all so let's look at our couple of chunks of text and that's decide together if there's like good and bad so like on the first one will be like this is like in there is a major part we talk about what you did right so design software applications including data modeling software architecture design software hardware integration user interface design and database management created and launched a service that collects product opinions and recommendations from Twitter service finds related tweets remove spam analyzes sentiment and creates a structure that every everything that was said about a particular product or service that exposes the consumer web site and as widgets that can be embedded in common with the website develop primary using Python Django from marketing and allowing end users to experience what and validated and identified on some richest system network stack performance like in latency per pack process alright and scalability of different network bio-models to various the measurement of filing its so which 1 do you like best 3 4 to the history of the word what would you do you want right yeah so the gentleman said for depends reading this so on the 1 hand like mandatory more amorphous and like the 1 of the most people yeah I mean that's obviously right on so I would also like to refer to the most because you literally can expelled this short sort of short text and see what happened and what was in the and of the number 4 is my like 2nd favorite and 1 and 3 is literally like especially 1 I can like and don't care like there's no like information and that's always 0 and the amount of so I don't get on really understanding what the person didn't want although you right like if you have a charge then that each of and inventory you might like 1 more those where interesting aside for this the of you can what you so from number 1 you don't see the result and you go into the buildings that I wouldn't let would agree sold on the phone and there something to it I'm investing is just short to other people but the problem of this anyway so the rate of people and now you can improve so like this and this would be like totally trivial that USC I typos but there is actually the that supports it like a lot
so this is also a statistic made by the learners in her blog about I think she look at 8 thousand resonates in her long career curricula and the frequency of errors and typos was higher correlated with good engineering performance than other factors and those factors include a bachelor's from Stanford for that for years and years from vocal for the 2nd biggest correlation point was if the person was up at the top companies before like Google Facebook so on if you wanna for interviews and you wanted to I will style interview or a company that does this and the user just look at correcting decoding interview in the UK interviewing also the electrons in terms of platforms on depending on what I mean by your level right now I will calculate and liked to recent of 2 months that you train in the evening another will perform well for regular companies will return to communicate what you did exactly what your problem project and what you contributed and ask the companies holding will assessors and prepare accordingly so like don't be shy to ask exactly what other company looks for so and this is my most of them like this part most so what many many candidates this is to really until actually company back to it's a good mom place to work on so the like couple of questions as you probably have heard of called the dual task so the USOS control communicable than 1 step you make daily builds beyond the vase if box before you write new code the have an up-to-date schedule you have occasion to programmers have quiet working conditions this is what I checked if I go the companies to like talk to them about what they need in hiring so I look at this a lot actually because I see that this is what happened in the as a programmer I want to have a quiet place to to work on the use the best tools money can buy we have testers due to new candidates right code during interviews do you have hallway usability testing and of those I mean there are things you also find the colorful career so they do the same assessment and on questions I will also try to ask is if it's possible to see the source code of the companies which might be able this would be like something also to show off your cold reading skills right and also some companies to invite you to go with the guys for a year and stuff like that so I will try to politely I'll suggest this to get to know a country so they're bonus questions that they're really tricky and I would ask them if you like fuel of sympathy with the hiring manager and an integer so you can ask what is the most costly take decision made earlier on that the company living on right now and where a product and future ideas generally come from the the 1st question would be more for a technical program and the 2nd question will be more for someone who is like a product for I mean this categorization in the beginning it's just like a funny out well interesting way to look at all the engineers so I kind of like the way of and generally trying not to ask like question that the super uninteresting evolves at all like vacation days to engineers because the time valuable and just ask this to the job please salary negotiations probably something this underestimated on and should get more attention and if you get a new job so try to the the couple of points that I like like to recommend people don't disclose their current salary of major asked for it so because I mean essentially this can be a benchmark against right arm and responding discussion about money as long as you can just well it's a benchmark and if H in this then tell them you feel uncomfortable because you want to find out how you can benefit the company and based on that you can give a number so I'm a fan of holding that as much as possible that and if is like absolutely not possible which might be the case for bigger companies and telemarketer want it to not be a benchmark and hopefully find them so if you like had the army a lot to get through mutual the criminal process and now this important moment salary comes and they need suggestion number then in my experience in dominant strategy if you try to just be silent because the kind of person of of social awkwardness well maybe continue talking there is a need to have a a blog post about all somebody made 15 more just not jumping up and down forgetting actually and offer that was like on the Doppler scale of what does she expected so no matter what number you get it's a business relationship and in the end you sell your time and you get the salaries for for them resource in a way and 5 more or less what companies that already went through a very painful process interviewing you in the end for them it's absolutely of 5 K moral relaxed but for you but it makes the difference in 5 years or 10 years if you can buy a holes or not so for use of the field for them it's not so don't use that to ask so the last thing I will start with discussion with is long-term engineering carried past so the old and rusty programmer like I think that a very senior engineering roles at smaller middle for companies that don't really exist and people after 50 don't only have like found a way to of all become better in their career unless they go to management so this is something of bigger companies on and this is something I tried to do research about and the computer on where I try to match companies with candidates and if you have other ideas on recruiting just say hi and getting with the label and on the other that's my ideas about recruiting so the without so we have a microphone if you have any ideas that you want to contribute to you can just start from now on we can also like just the other thank you so we have a discussion if you have something to show for Christians a site a in my expedience and maybe this is just what you 85 send enough to a person without mentioning that this salary I get lots of projections so maybe this is how output right thing but here in Spain companies just 2 of the grant money and they give you the mishap by giving ostensible of lots of candidates reject the effect how you found this or is this something from good terms that might be actually cultural sigh operate mainly in the Germanic part of Europe so German-speaking countries and I think they might be less willing to discuss salaries and like talk about money are compared to other cultures all that's all I mean the bigger places there is also more like an appearance in Zurich is very small and the variance and like standard deviations around and so you have a muon salary analogous standard deviation and variance were so for instance I met senior engineers who make like 130 K and it's like same qualified people who make like 70 at smaller companies because they're like global and you can make the city is small and therefore you have not like a standard number in New York or London you do have that so there like less variance and there it might be more common also to to ask for this because then they wanna check if you like the aware of the market or not where sensory or smaller cities the site there's no actually numbers is much more dependent on the company and and other factors but cultural things talk was quite interesting to see the other side so in particularly I like so when you mentioned that the HR people spend like classes on the minutes typical in reading city where manipulate less the 2nd maybe 11 30 seconds so that the was from quite a similar case on our side against developers spend like 20 seconds reading the recruitment males because they all look the same so then the result of the a question who should read bills because uh developers don't get money for that than which are people do so the next question actually is if the HR people who did not read the city careful and still get money for that the 1 and capable getting those keywords out is it actually a good sign that they've been supplied to you which means it is probably about and you wouldn't probably apply there anyway or using that there could be that these are people representing actually good company with your experience is the correlation between call quality of 3 of the city and the quality of the company the following probably there is a correlation I if you're 1 thing you could have like other things so this is actually alive question asking myself another and you have to say people and the 1 thing that think of about things but then that also there is like this halo effect so you shouldn't jot somebody because you the running that is also good the like like just like other things so all right so so this is like a research thing I think of all of the pictures that can be answered so what you is where things remember that's everyone who works for a company has passed through each 1st so the rich are especially determines who is working for companies and so urgent along with which are the main issues that Internet company has a right of the here are the well I mean by that a company is small there is no way charge and the charge comes later and I have like an example in Zurich 3 company they just hire hired a internal intruders and this guy was turned down like I recommended them with workable of and like he would turn them down and I will likely rather because like I mean his age are guys like a new higher and I'm very short of this effect and the the world on H R is definitely used in well anybody who was not able to to write a rate code is that assessing engineer so what I think I'm environment like a workshop for a job people learn of always science jobs the following are individuated in it to created a course on on that might be successful actually like this kind of training who would extend this quite good optical right so I believe on you need some kind of training sets and the nearest town and I should like a giant it in a more traditional companies they think in a way that at other jobs there is really true that the engineers have to like the fact that the candidates have to back to get the job but in our domain engineering the other way around like companies have vector in and manage job people don't get hi come 1st things for his book I'm here and and from my 8 uh experience I can confirmed that many of the things that you recommended worked so recommend air sending out some tests assignments before even looking at the he's so that's what we do for instance that we receive application but we 1st had at UBC some work of that person before checking with the but that's not the the point I wanted to make them on the vitality to make a is 1 way to sack said ID recruiting new easy to be exclusive to only talk to a certain type of the engineer and there's and of course talking about every CD which is a very broad topic keep them about gender it's about uh orientation it's about being be small it's about race it's about many things and I am 1 of the tricky things about uh there was very successful ways of recruiting variety is reference for instance so if you get to your employees to refer their friends and their former inmates well they will bird we recommend seeing other people to this so you will like never see and also if you go for appeal as beers with can or the guys are going Riviera them with that candidates you also like missing out on opportunities to meet informally some candidates from other backgrounds we don't drink article for many reasons could be held could be a region could be pregnancy or whatever and from and so do you have any traits said to themselves the spectral issues of what we try is to have you informal time for meeting can is during the day where people are coming to the of this so that's the lunch that's the coffee break something like this but maybe have some other ideas in your experience on the other side there like a big tendency towards all said so to only way university graduates from the school and feel like very in 1 direction that's very bad and inefficient so my dream as a technique to is to help to make the market more efficient to make a perfect so everybody finds a job that he or she likes and this is a very important aspect should focus on things that people who were not fitting your profile in order to look at all available on candidates as fully supported yeah the 2 things again but of course in I have 2 questions 1 is say regarding the you're suggestion that it when we get an offer we should mention up in it that apply also for 40 minutes and then we we should wait to our house or sometimes the opera comes in the image of the collapse of a constant you may get so what what do we do and so you don't I mean the social sort of like you you you you acquire because you exploit like social yeah they should only by American interest also placed on you could for instance call back ground rather quickly and of saying that you you you are not sure about this other point if she is she or he can repeat the aspects of the offer and then you again have a situation where you can let the other person knowing that you're like happy but not to have same general it's related to membership this version that's your advice and I have another thing that I learned during this business is that if people don't comply your e-mail that doesn't mean that they're not interested so I like that also in I'm hiring also for start-ups so they're like 1 from the and that just recently we we talked and get grade yeah the intruder everyone work review because you're soften engineer will belong to send me an e-mail and then I'll send a e-mail it was great chatting to you a cool I have of this and this terms and conditions let's what like for a week so I Writing and Fe color you I just wanted to have to ask if you receive e-mail and we can continue fertile talking about on this cooperation that we talked about last week silence and I have 1 example where I this for 13 2 times and the 3rd the 3rd time it was like hi I have and I made some really sorry that I cannot answer had to launch this rocket ship and stuff like this happens here and there and and so happy that you got back to me let's meet again so so the million for and so like when people tell me I'm not interested I stopped Mary but you have to it's about that in a conversation because people have other things to do and you're like not the most important thing in their lives usually so and this is probably 1 of these learning so I think In the 1st half of the and what about the guy types of contain guessing you might be a bit biased but when for somebody's seeking a job would you suggest going through a recruiter if if as opposed to as opposed to a job offerings given directed by the company's and my motivation for that is that so far my experience with recorded was was a bit dreadful theory of aggressive and I kind of felt like I'm in blockbuster for more we just with me being the the main character in that kind of felt career that I've had most much but is it OK to perceive the recruitment as the end as somebody who is working for that company is is trying to get my salary lower as a result I sorting of all external recruiters third-party yes yes so the absolute like I'm I think about together out of my projects mainly because of the because the world in we will recruiter has such a negative connotation there has a result of that both properties of recruiting companies are usually pretty bad the whole sphere has a recommendation because people in keyword matching respectful well to what's engineers on so I would suggest working with recruiter if you like to know the market rates on which companies are the goods in that's a new city and like detailed information about the market then it could make sense to work for a further but then again there is a big variance and quality so I tried to be like on the top of the level and quality and what they do also somewhat like the not so good companies with only all only 1 of companies that I myself as an engineer will work so I have to decide for yourself if you want to another city and you want to know the market rates it might not hurt to exploit the intruders to you know to to get to know the market for salary again uh no uh just to the question of about the well as a team we interview people sometimes and well the what told the good coding questions to to ask whether it's a bit late but well I error something about so a world of classical things like if you energy true when and this is a really good well it was quite a bit of an open question that causes some In that talk that you see in more moreover 0 in the pertinent this is the whole class label with questions for interviews involved like the 1 hour that always works through to ask about projects the person there so this is my question I like the questions most that are not getting easier when you know them and those are questions like that you can talk about a project that you have in the past and if you're familiar with the technology stack you can like that were likely made in an area and you see how much you can go all of what you're asking and that this is a way that always works as heretical questions notes maybe don't yet who questions I would will and other like companies that can afford to ask and it would be I mean if you will the excessive communication over to a drop in the interview with the question what kind of projects that the started forest may have something to truly competent to talk about the effect of high that the is the no area will not cover here and there was a when I speaking assure some tips on how to find a good freelance this is how to to find a good friend it would where it is shown that the that was and and and the church of the different platforms on the Internet and I think the most important part of this freedom to build trust as fast as you can so for instance if I need support of some engineering always go like on our work on or similar platforms and I look wonderful people from Ukraine because then I can say that they have been born into all lot of a lot of the same like above already like common heritage and and there is some concern of trust and the public this a little thing that I do do we have any other questions you know how much of size community where so that we make like quantity but labels 1st actually from the new for hierarchical it's not a it's required at all so although I do recommend they all go to but they were only in London Paris and berlin so for not wanting to go there don't worry about it and so I and my experience was a comes from the us and we moved here about a year ago but I wanted to answer you know I'm sorry also plotted on ones answer your question about external recruiters are 1 of the problems with why it there so aggressive and horrible is because most of the time they don't actually get salaries and their salary comes entirely from Commission based on the place you so they're going to be as aggressive as they can to get you to accept an offer and to get you to accept an offer with a higher salary you can possibly get because that increases the likelihood of course if they don't make a single placement in a year they don't make any money that you're which really some home I also want to thank you for the presentation and I if you all are very interested in the data behind recruiting he had mentioned a lean learners blog she is a phenomenal and here she is about 10 years of pi bond at a science background and her blog is all about that in ways that best practices when it comes to actually sourcing those e-mails and sourcing from 1 day and if you don't use any external platforms to really fantastic arm and my last question to you Sir really quickly was what's the most creative interview process that you've ever seen the arms because a lot of the times when I start up does interview these 1 on 1 interview processes of noticed just don't work out quite well on comes very intimidating for the individual and if you don't know the runtime of a specific algorithm but you shouldn't have to know that on the spot where some people I Google really do you think that that's important and so have you seen any better particularly outstanding they're really get to that you know programming techniques of the start itself the mean of natural like about the process but the way people were higher 1 of my absolute favorite story like US student and a his actions conference and I'm not in this room so she was essentially uh dreaming of becoming a software engineer until he was 12 and it affects became homeless when he was 14 like really really for a growing up in Illinois and the world really living on the streets and so he was 23 and then he started to work as a mechanic and that mechanic and then we looked at interview that well software engineers actually make some money and then he founded the simplest possible walk in the thrift store for 1 dollar 50 and every nite after during his mechanics job to do this as it was book where everything was like with this code is duplicated this could be the beginning because of the book was sold and and and then he somehow have ended up on a conference where he made a German company and this German company like 7 months later higher than like right away after he had quite enough experience in Python Django sold the life time like this goes back to to what you said like exceptional that exceptional in the old where like the homeless and stuff this experience like maybe on of the more questions different from I have a 2 questions the 1st is take a topic search available online or the other does locally for the API can be can be crawled labeled of devolved let's say this is available online did the fact that much that you built they will not satisfied that no local and 2nd the 2nd question I have is is abolished your website mentioned that didn't could services and training suicide power of free will be take 20 % of attribute that you make with us so what does that mean lower case for you right so what what I try to build this on 4 different should become a tool for enable find engineers but I want to have like partners in the city that using user begins critical for for instance this rule and other tools build around and the applicants tracking system that you can use for free so this is what I'm building with a friend and then the person who does the recruiting in while in and new on Indian if he she gets all the training of a sort of a free and then I did headquarters difficult difficult but this time natural on much the because of public like that on so this guy's already labeled on the website and this was a very specific answers and sorry for the rest of you there are any questions and the from the more questions that you even in scenarios and she was reported for you want few