A Twitter Revolution without revoluationaries?


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A Twitter Revolution without revoluationaries?
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Morozov, Evgeny
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"Its become common for pundits and politicians alike to laud the Internet as the ultimate technology of liberation that could crush authoritarian regimes and replace them with democracies. We have seen a barrage of such predictions in the wake of the so-called Twitter revolution in Iran. But is it really true? How are authoritarian governments responding to the Internet threat? Could the Internet be the very technology that would prolong their stay in power? In this talk, Evgeny Morozov, a contributing editor to Foreign Policy and a Yahoo! fellow at Georgetown University, will examine how far we can go in predicting the Internets true impact on authoritarianism."
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make of lecture by come bed yet settings so doing these things but they killed this gates my view the only goal was to take this there would fueled by the guns in the political element the guild deserve a it's comes little of guidance does guided Twitter angle and about as that is fit in a non-violent mention of the stars this team a abundant discovers gatherings started it says OK so order for life to looks and disease steamy against canal dig license so I get a Monday it's you but that's here good
filters mutant leaving mesh me is uh music of goods to the users have to see more deserving through the economist and a Newsweek International the International Herald Tribune vital dynamic because of also splitting Evgeniou moral self but there is a bit the tho the so hi while I I have no
idea what the person is using just south of a signal to have so let me start with this a little confession has so you probably saw that last year the reuse broke made in the very quickly at the where I hold on the analyst rate it unfortunately I think and they want to believe that I was actually the 1 who came up with this idea out
which are apparently of structural structural rolling on the fuel that has been used up then you know a lot of media actually got fast was this idea of young people of suddenly using new media and Facebook and there are 2 basically uh communicate with each other they are in a unfortunately I every single other our prior approvals or or else you will call it a got that label attached
and I know and others that the thing was probably there but decision on my part and I'm not particularly proud about our because of I think too many meetings are now are attached to this
term and if you look at the coverage of the events in the on for example in the American media you see see extremely divergent media newspapers like for example the nation
and the Washington Times which have nothing in common politically which are the opposite polar bonds are actually embracing very how this label but of course you
had the same thing in Germany you know they also varies legally I embrace label to the evolution in the world of research for my book actually spent quite a lot of time compiling all sorts off silly things so it's pundits most in America actually said about the state and the role that it played in the and if you go through this list
which extends to many many pages adjusted to snippets I will actually this thought and how much our enthusiasm and you talking is among people are associated with of the role
that technology can play thing that surprises into and this if you could follow this field probably heard about a very important stage that Hillary Clinton delivered after earlier this year she spoke about infinite 3 what I can't but I can assure you that now by the end of the year of all major think tanks in Washington and New York will also start some kind of infinite freedom problems because this is the new buzzword in column right everyone loves concept of raises money really easily be villages jumping on the bandwagon just to give you an example next week on April 19th judge you have an event in dollars an hour George Bush Institute rate which is this new conservative thinking out which is all about cyber dissidents and Internet theorem in it's actually opened by George Bush rate and this kind of shows you need latency for them to schedule have things like the freedom and it has things like uh in a stories from the Front fonts had is definitely a lot off of excitement which I wouldn't necessarily say is the health of the you know the last it 8 or 10 years taught us anything it's that they have George Bush get excited about subject it's probably not going to be any good results and that so I why bother why should we even be thinking about this matter and why is a very important to get this relationship right and how technology influences political protest put well you know I think that if the navigable that our you know all of
conservative for you and you near conservative pundits are eventually will eventually embrace Internet freedom s 1 of the leading causes that they think it's very sad but I don't think there's any way out here right there will be money allocated to where I think it will politicized logging in the media up 12 point where it'll just be very dangerous to be a blogger in certain countries no matter what your blog about whether it's about counselors about music the fact that now of all these are being perceived cyber dissidents and potential threat to the state i think makes alot off our pedometer Gearhart difficult for the full of people who are embracing new media for completely different reasons are to continue operating in their countries 2nd point a thing is that you know for sure all this money flowing into the field and I was almost certain to be misallocated made if you look at the the kind of radical I'm based in Washington figures from university now and I Q here what of this rapid eye along this revolves around circumventing Internet censorship red which has probably very important venture but that's not the only thing that can be done in many cases that's actually not going to help much bigger censorship now an infinite control takes many different forms which you can just sold by funding circumvention tools in our right to get to this at some point in i think lastly i will also have to understand that are the the lack of his may not actually quite a money rate and that by funding and naturalist for war off otherwise self-sustainable interpre your initiatives which would develop on their own but they think this is very important to keep in mind that money always comes with certain political strains of attachments and sometimes it's better under from the project and to have it associated with an American and European political entity but so before we know jump into you know that that should be the participation I think it is definitely a need for us I don't have a lot of
guilty of this myself but we need to go beyond this very abstract discussion of whether the is good or bad for democracy in spot actually TTK specific courses that you have to be looking at how money should be allocated you have to be paying critical attention to how healthy it is for governments and their impact on government to get more from the space and this is something which we would never be able to answer that for just continue talking about very abstract and you know looking out you abstract facts and so just to give you a short biographical their guassian here so that you understand what I come from and so that you don't think that in
online and then in the winter that freedom of something actually come from and I would say quite uh you know mixed in thing background I started out in this still working for an NGO which was doing a lot of media work in the former solid block I got involved very closely with the Open Society Institute which is you know the philanthropic arm of George Soros and still advising them on a lot of issues which have to do with that and democracy so actually from flying off allocating some of that money on the and also journalism so this as you may know writing a lot about and that that was right what about acknowledging forwards so I have multiple perspectives here also helps it actually to and from Belarus so I've seen some of this issues going necessary caring 1st half so that's how I would change my perspective it's definitely not just coming up with theories with eurozone say I'm flying to understand how we can actually use some of the theory is to bring out your tangible improvements to you know many of those closest to advance societies and and again I
just want to make it as clear a a lot of people and I think for good reasons I Valdivia promise that we should be democratizing you know any region with any technology radiate anything it's a position which is probably more popular in Europe than in the US and we can the have entire conference on thus whether we should actually doing anything the democratized middle with some erasure of this limit on the margins of the you know assuming for the is this sport that what I reasons this work will continue in the government will continue in the West will continue supporting the staff at so it's not anyhow you know moral taken ocean-going doing it marked and so the key takeaway gets
from this part if you don't remember anything in like to do influence of my 1st question is in the park it's really know very little about the Internet's impact research areas you know and I think we know very little and we are still I misleadingly thinking that we actually know a lot in the how wise here and I think all of those vices have to do with our own reading of history their own reading of political science in our somewhat shallow understanding of the dynamics of the Internet and I'll touch on some of those later on distinct amino for a very
long time I've been thinking about best waste actually you know think about those issues is you have new media you have lots you have social networks may have been a limited amount of funding and on the other hand are you you have some objective you want to bring fear that you want to be more respect for human rights you want to suffer democratize all societies and for making the best in the store will also be a inappropriate metaphor work is you know an analogy is that imagine that your stopped in a dark room rates and I know you force to the world what you're given a gun
and that you being asked to shoulder the moving party I right hand uh you know you'll have always the shaking and the
target is moving in the also told that well may be civilians standing in the room is and that's more or less of the challenge we think that we have faced you know the internet is constantly changing out tools you know how gun in our hand on it's it's always so all the latest changing its governance is changing other ways in which were added to the changing out but our target administrative areas and to think about a career broadly she as well In our China today is not which I used to be in 1989 our just later on is not what it used to be background it's very important for us to actually understand that a severe dynamic felt conjures the note getting too old tools which work them you know my information online in prior to apply them to a environment which is composed different and are in of course the most important thing is
actually to try not to cause any damage because I just think that there are a lot of activists are particularly this riparian States or not Filaria for that it's which digital activism entails no they're not for every are off to the extent of the extent to which this city's services somewhat in social networks that elsewhere where off the know what making friends with the rest and and feasible mean out there that could serve as evidence that our Dutch supported by the West is that is this very famous example of an Iranian academic was actually part of a mailing list about academic affairs and it was run by Columbia University and I arguing constrai when they're on the prosecutor actually used his membership in the you know that all of them in a list approval he spice to the west you know you can push it a little bit further start thinking about what kind of evidence you can get from facebook and there's no it's it's a completely different issue so yes there will be casualties and I think we have to make sure that our you know when you but the point here is not to continue shooting in the dark room and now
Ramesh here that would be the parent prescription but they they on the right
course of action is actually tried to search the lights which they they enter a and I think that's the only option that we have it's trying to understand how exactly governments have gotten this environments but in how exactly are you know and what how exactly bloggers and media types actually challenging the power of the government's anything until we understand those 2 will continue shooting in the dark and then we will continue missing of targets and will continue putting many people in danger and so
if the frame this question you would broadly about what role does information play under 3 areas I think that the obvious question always answer is that shuttle dicators hate information you know the behavior that threatens the process of the right to censor it why even bother asking this question I think it's a very simplistic view and that's actually are probably not true for I myself and list the plasticity ways right now in which um you know they benefit from
information you know and if you think about it and if you look at political science and how they think about being the carriers mostly that yes information can be very strategically used for propaganda purposes it can be used to utilize this and I can somehow you know push people towards entertainment and away from politics I know it can be used for 2 more attractive governing in all talk about that in a while and of course it can be used for spying survey and many other things made there is nothing that tells us that information Worthington and by extension has only positive effect on those countries and they think that's the footnote which always have to keep in mind I am I think if you look at the US specifically about this this
theory I think news inform you that the where section 1 the Cold War and they won the cold war because of there was 1 smuggling of Bam literature in your machine the fax machines and they were broadcasting through Radio Free Europe of those so as you're and I think that there is some truth to that statement but they think you know for for those of us who come from this Region it's very simplistic view which you know completely ignores the economic reality about no common of extremely know that well or off of tensions within that and that information I mean nor have been what killed that but if you look at the kind of off you know intellectual discourse and the last fully in the early and mid nineties in the
books like this 1 but which uh was it and actually by our foremost birch if 1 of the big American newspapers where you know this is this is that it's the information which the solvent union the initial about many of the statements made by people like you know Francis Fukuyama died in the early nineties so some hunting and I know all down dozens of Fatah the information was the fullest adherence and uh you know that's why we have people in Washington United States and about your sort of people in Washington I still knowing that assumption and knowing what happened there they still think that that's exactly the same all that information technology will play in modern around China or Russia whatever they think it is too early the power interests that although the someone motivations the counts off how actually no common is land that demand on to get into the historical debate but think it's a very naive reading of history and they think it's a very simplistic reading which can potentially use the police's we want to devise for no changing others returned regions on so you know this it's not for some official mainly no indication of information
but I'm going few people who are studying the internet you know and you know some you may know that had a lot of debates and discussions was glacier shortly for example we can also just over triangle here credible smart mobs on there is a water off of positive and I was saying optimistic expectation that somehow the Internet can on doubletree character and you know I'll try to summarize this theory here because the thing is the important for us to get out of this people are actually saying and try to see our what potential could be so I have the basic fear goes like this now the Internet allows people to see all the facts to see what exactly along with the government the government can no longer like for them and they also get very to tools to rethink and organized there's water social networks in the also have cheap media like cell phones like cameras with which they can actually document in is the power that would you know resulting in shared was the rest of the world and that was somehow prevent the government from are you know violent crackdown that and there are loads of academic theories coherent information cascades that you know the more people do that the more intensive the comes in and out and you I think that's widely popular view that that's exactly what the influence that I'm going to continue this theory I think we have to still task quite a few questions because I think there are too many assumptions built into this and I think our body are not something the theory without much critical thinking who actually is making that I posted this tumors and you see it out to me it's all about how you know what the future holds because we do have to base all poses on something and you know in most cases you have to build a mom assumptions that you know often fears like this 1 so in terms of actual you know unanswered questions on the he now isn't really true
that you know of blocks and social Lafferty and where I people would only gap positive incentives to participate because the see the government is falling would then be that are uh you know they would also see that the government is reacting very violently and all that was grown far away and they would actually incentives to participate in a you've all seen this famous matter video off of this young woman who was killed in an intermediate and it's still not clear what the overall impact of that once you know the name the few hundred others you know people into this this war that thousands of
people see that UN decided no it's not very safe and the of the whole right and the fact that it was spread the centralized manner before soldiers resulted in a lot of people seem about that they think that's something we didn't know we have to something that we have to study but it will be to be mature to say that this fact this kind of encouragement of low works only in 1 direction and the 2nd question which in general the think we need to ask this you now even in that
to what are the critical international points and work in the government intervene in the of the communication flows and of course is by blocking mobile networks is by moving Internet that works in the you know but kind the cables you know the Chinese were find that kind a cable the John Johns when you know the weavers where arriving last year that kind of stuff at them for 6 months they have no mobile carriers that had no
internet coverage rate in mind like this it's the apart the practical test you know we've seen in our for example Cambodia and 2007 for city days before the elections they just for novel mobile networks right where all the mobile efforts bound and the government knows how to do that it's very hard the spread those messages and plant if that's so again the key question here is you know that's the garden still have control over the intermediaries and again it is very little that morning has changed here we can give a satellite phone at every single individual right and even if we do I'm sure the government to find a way in which still jam satellite phones you know anybody who geographic area to get this is also very important but to think about that question which I think this is about 1
quarter it's the value useless of centralization and planning and evolution I get that the shot his book you'll you'll see a lot of our you know I think correctly pointed out observations that the Internet has made it very easy for people to organize right but again and know and securing their emotions the East somehow different from writing code and writing open-source software and you know in the and the because the kind of leadership he need this and a different infantilized leadership which has objectives which starts in about things with people should do whatever bit hold multi-condition I ah and again not everyone can be the revolutionary leader had you would don't want a people southerly pull you movement apart and the 5 different directions in it is incredibly easy was walking in Africa you know you look at Facebook and what happens in the wrong you have no idea where the some of the people who where you active on Facebook where actually around they there and industrial bolt to all those which is foreigners with sympathizing in this they hard to make decisions where you don't but a window or the people giving commands that so you know yes the infant has cheapened of the cost of communication but 1 of the indirect results may be that it will actually you know make it harder for people to act as a cushion broke and again this is something which I'm not cleaning of definitive but that's just another question which we need to continue answering because I don't think has been answered by yes and the so i'm just give some onions catch you know what what what else we have to be looking at because they think the current kind of thinking about broadcast about him over to the ocean it's all very much focused on the short term it's all focused on you know playing a protest but if you look at the actual technology under Rotarian know that has long term effects right has the facts which will show themselves in 5 or 10 years this by making government what factors or whether it's by helping to create a propaganda you know you name it we can just be assuming that you know they only impact it would have to be on how we know potential emotionalist by protesters
so come let me just lied to you a few you know false here
but again the the big question which is being we have answered to the mature way and this holds agrochemistry Karen states that benefit from fear of loss of information rate which may against
more like an ox more to share some slots our which united anything hint about are already my talk but so for example the question of improving governance you you have to look at all of this country is that threshold to the China built on is very complex entities where you know there is essentially ruler of you know and there there are people who you know who are doing things in the periphery the rate in the sample the word doesn't always know what a petitfour is up to you know from that perspective you know real great information flows help to you know keep some they're present tracks make sure this level corruption you sure 1st of all you know and the will design systems in which local citizens can report local production of the government and that's what's happening for example in China where they are very active are terms often government for example they are setting up a government websites and they don't want citizens to complain about what's happening on the ground that and the do adjective local MIAs with the bright red this is the reality was 3 caring is not so will they have a more effective a certain additional probably yes it would be a more democratic no I'm just not so sure come but then again did is I think a strong of propaganda value to you know pretending to be listening to people you know you open up people submit questions people submit our various talking points you know something's yoked themselves and you don't know the net result of your perceived as more open a friend government radio legitimacy of those up again this is not something that we have studied this to well and they think it does play an important role in and so you know again we have to look at this question not so much as the last of the internet and this was allowance often know-how so if you're evolve and adapt to this new environment where this globalization ways the information society has very little to the west of the entire process I'm going this other question of sort of you know cyber humanism as as like the call it again if you look at our
discussions in the West we do not yet half hour agreement whether you know the internet is making young people more engaged in politics or whether it's making them more is in politics right again that's something that still up for debate some people saying that you know this digital natives will be kind of digital renegades so will all areas often use feasible to organize and summer saying that they will all be digital captive school just be staying home playing computer games and you know participating in politics again I don't want to William in on this question and give any answers but does something which we should also be considered in in the context of a certain states historical certain atlas as far as I'm concerned that you know everyone
living Norway Vriend person living in those societies is by default opposed to the government the and the more entertainment and the more opportunities for our disengaging from holding to provide them what is indeed the will become so are again this is something which we need to consider and I can perfectly see how you know an environment where the searcher and government would be it would be happy this policy as they are actually you know from the lower than that you know in China or Russia was a few exceptions for exam in Paris you know well why because Broadway they don't have enough resources but another reason that well we know that keeps people be the you know and it's doesn't it's not exactly how you know views of human rights abuses that the sharing core BitTorrent you know in most cases hold films for not a few known among than than the music made so again this is another them mention which we have to consider you want to get an answer about the that's impact on the research areas if you're sure that question here in house I think we have to be completely I no clear on the fact that we cannot have a new branch of politics in those countries no I don't think that you know you can have a meaningful virtual programs through fees were put together you know yes you know you can organize campaigns you can highlight certain issues but to change the situation in any of those countries you still have to do a lot of the business you still have to get arrested you still have to participate in the GIVE elections In this will have to do a lot of things which you know a result in you being beaten up by the Polaris you know so what I don't want to do is for a lot of these young people who are comfortable with technology to get the wrong impression that the way to change things by engaging with the internet rather than risking their
lives on the state you know and that's very cynical but they think that's the reality that we have to face with conjures be pushing them away from traditional engagement because this is the additional engagement the change will come before ever come up so 10 know this is something that we shouldn't lose sight of AM and you know you look at
the theories officer at various right and look at political science of sociology In the final part of interesting things you find that you know many authoritarian states find with having Parliament's their fine having elections ill-defined was having called independent media how you know why did they allow that wouldn't know there are lots of theories that they do it because you know it helps to distribute our jobs be to and you know their weights or a the door it because it helps to Lauren was the most corrupt bureaucrats and the beauty of him there are all sorts of the areas that again we have also to be prepared to consider a scenario where you know Mr. Terrence state would say find you know it's OK let's have the blogosphere them boarding as long as a bomb engage in geo-political stuff you know and they think if you look at our you know from a contentious example with overpressure these very little control over there is no censorship of the Chinese kind of style reduce our health dimensions you know doesn't have a lot of impact on the country itself you know on social issues yes some political issues so say no late so again there may be a certain legitimacy value built in and allowing people to talk and again that's something that we can just regard focusing on pro tells me that was happening of the preposterous propaganda angle is really easy going to spend much time on you've all seen are
probably of stories about for example futures him party in China no that's a movement which is affiliated with the government and also people for basically being paid our if you Sanskrit and when they are in our foreign sensitive political pulpits online in the the them comment and try to take the discussion in our direction which is favorable to the government pamperer 280 thousand people who are employed and trained on the way out to do this but again it may seem I view we are facing a why would they be doing that are they think you know we've learned that in the west
you know we have astroturfing we have no corporations firing the same orders do you know go and promote their own talking points and profits and what not actually see that the Chinese propaganda officials or learning from the Labour Party in Britain the know having the world for our joint fashion some you know know how changes in unit of standard practice you want to promote you talking points you know you hire
a few people who undercover promoted talking points the question is why do those certain states I think that's important although I didn't you know and I can build on a
theory here all just all this try to be very quick I think the reason to do it is because traditional forms of censorship are along the various actors and what happens is that when you know 1 blogger writes something online and down you know the government tries to do let that it just encourages 100 bloggers to post from that what's in the end up getting did ability to the accusations and the initial vocals so what happens is that instead of trying to remove this information from the Internet altogether different to discredited known the discredited they just you know what was the author of being an agent of the CIA or M I 6 or you know being funded by the West End down it discredits the entire masses that they trying to say and it also makes other people you a suspicious of lending their support to this political blogger known we our the you know we also have that in the western was a Streisand effect which many of you have heard of community that up I think that the but that the other big issue here is that you know trying to push the talking points so anonymous bloggers which may be completely unknown is probably still more credible than trying to push their talking points awarded a distributed government media you know I'm not sure how many people believe the lifting of the Soviet Union will direct and probably there that if you do something given by the monomer Scotland the order person comes from you can do this and can be something else sure of course so the more likely to do that because you know you can trust problem right time and again you can there's just another so that we have to consider in a survey some data mining I think it's an issue you know very well in Germany so I don't want to spend too much time already yes obviously you know all the data we produce and social media sites with this phase of whether it's clear how does leave a lot of traces are which can down and I know the government to use are in order to identify who we are or were to identify I you know who it is that they're connected the cells of the you tools
stories from around so the government after the broadcasts quieted down would be government that they gathered all the photos that have been shared on flicker there have been uploaded to twitter and all the videos that having the potent you chew and this about the government and website with the basically posted all of those 4 arrows and the people to identify who are those people in the photos you know so they were taken for like this 1 and you know so it's pretty well and I'll do that the public to basically you know identified for those protesters and of course and they would ask them expel them from universities we do all sorts of of a mess of things and In on that happened the village and was report on BBC that they they got anything more than 40 the identified more than 40 people but again it just shows you some of the downsides of this increase transparency yes of course neutral make police brutality more visible to international audiences has order theories say we also have to be aware that it will make you know the broadcasters also more visible write them down what kind of reactions I totally agree with wouldn't know you know whether the fact that the Iranian government is learning such websites how does it influence the you know our eagerness of other people to participate in Proc tests you know if you know that your face will be shown to the entire nation then you have a lot of animals for rapid you I'd doubt you'd want to participate in broadcast that again those are some relationships which we need to continue investigating idea that the point and start another inning go from where on our again just to 0 in on the so called social
networking and in a lot of Iranians who live abroad have actually reported that when they go back to the on how people at the border of the you know the customs so the baby in the past regards they should ask them if they have accounts on facebook they can have the same no but they actually look them up on Google and they write down the you know all that science and art then because those people automatically look suspicious I'm and again you can think also what are the kind of consequences you know what are the kind of connections you can discover in in the past and I choose to be the quality of the did the KGB and others have to tortured to get that kind of data analysis of the schools that on Facebook and it can just go to some data-mining and you know all the social graphs you know please interval but again the fact is that mentioned before the fact that the even part of a meal and this already in our Avedon suffuse somehow connected to the west in this is where I think we have to be really careful when we did with staff when we you know try to promote something we seen run on Facebook because eventually you know that the be used of evidence and this is something where you know I think we need to have much better ethics of our new much better understanding of how things of and I actually working but so this will that you have also fallen Herzl's that you know that did all
Serbians which bothers me now as you know you you may have seen this innovation from China last year knows the softer recall down which they wanted to installed on all computers sold in China red and you know it was a very it was in such sophisticated piece of software much which was based on Western technology which she could have stolen actually as it turned out it was you rolled out of the more professional manner but would really bothered me about this pedigree case is that you know it it was smart it was almost aligned artificial intelligence to figure out what it is that you would incur a lot and I make a decision whether it used to be banned in our was a system which was constantly learning it was exchanging information with a central server who's getting their actions it was getting new vocabulary somewhat to ban you know it should analyze the 4 0 you're looking at the full determined by these pornography but it couldn't just battle together it would actually seeing you know 1 process and you can then imagine how you can link it to your other profile you know you take a look at who your friends are and then determine what kind of information it wants to block the there are all sorts of customizations you can think all of which I think about look very scary you know and and and that gets us away from this you know of filtering of your else and then you're also always focused on which is being you know wikipedia banning the websites of human rights watch you know as long as based on the content that can be many think it wasn't and have to do is you're also you know whatever copies apart if it finds that that has some language that doesn't like to shut down the application you know and those are the kind of things which I find very bothersome and the non amateur that we have ahead of all my computer just for experiment you know ahead 2nd get generally have to know like I'm I'm I'm a little advanced I know that user and another just means bonuses and but I think the last point I would like to make here is that you too much of our thinking came about the impact of the Internet on how certain societies suffers from what I call
the binary fallacy we think that it's all just a struggle between bloggers on the 1 hand who all pro-democratic and Western campus again governs on the other hand pronunciation is just watch more complex you look at this and you start noticing that you know their nationalist extremists their religious extremists there are all sorts of forces and groups and that words which are not necessarily affiliated was a state but we shall also not particularly conducive to democracy right and they too are being empowered by the internet no I'm not saying that they're being empowered to somewhere down say the democratic forces but you have to understand that if our common understanding of this and I'm talking now we know about the perception Washington if our common understanding of this is that the Internet thousands from so high right or Muslim Brotherhood in that actually what follows is that the US will just continue popping up posting Bach major this is this is a very bad actual political implications that so if you know that's the conclusion wanted or we also have to depict here the face and your political consequences right and the same in kind of removing the geopolitical angle from our analysis is like a to garrison achieved completely wrong conclusions I so if we go back to our doctrine but you know and and and and and I could figure out about
whether we should be controlling our hands is shaking you know which is the Internet or the was supplied to affix the you know the part I think the the best thing we can build this
roller to control our own hand you know because the product will go to polling you know at this point I'm not sure that them you know the Chinese leaders understand keeps China you know going and taking a date that thing at this point is so complex I very few people understand how exactly words and what thus and you know
what are the politics of resistance in a China but I think that the Internet is something that we can still control list ensured that are in those spaces it as standard doesn't become more centralized with doesn't become arm to know more as opposed to privacy on an immediate and I think this is weird that this
challenge actually gives at less than the West note that is if you wish tension at the 2 where the domestic and international Internet agendas I'm talking about the last ensures more was the case in the U. was well how if you listen to people working in the intelligence community and the military all the talk about us how we can fight cyber war how we can cite cybercrime how we can remove anonymity you know and and and you know recently Mike McConnell the former national the former Director of National Security Agency said that we need to arranging year turned out to make it easier you know to attribute cyber attacks and and you know I think it's a terrible idea right and this is where we'll start getting a lot of contradictory messages because we cannot be misleading anonymity online at the same time as with writing power Chinese variance however the students that those are to come from the that the messages are and we will be accused of hypocrisy you now and and and just to give you another example you know when you get an American actors quot that the websites of Iranian government they actually was a nonexistent in the local call it hacktivism and we just let it go there together Russian hackers attack in Estonian websites I would call a cyber war and you know we hold Russia accountable for the final whatever they and again I think it's just cannot continue for far too long because the warehouse and at some point you would also be accused of hypocrisy later in the this is inevitable so I just don't know for how long we can go on you know trumping this matter she went in the theorem have all doing is trying to stick to the tongue right and that's just a very big challenge which we don't you know of other less then I know laws the theories that did that the kind of slide from the beginning often on George wish Institute
holding a conference about cyber dissidents in the phantom yes a big business you know there's a lot of money attached infinite freedom will be even more money attached and I think it's very dangerous and do have to think whether we want our governments are to get more from this particular governments and institutions with various pointed track-record I think we cannot just continue acting at that's another sort of problem you know we can continue I'm talking about activists here existing in a parallel universe and saying that the Internet is good for democracy in you know and in the conversation because there will be people who use you sound bites and answer them into their own reports which will justifying warming yeah and whatever right and a thing at this point you have to be careful I you know you have to start engaging with false secretases because I'm really concern myself about the kind of decisions we should being made about the subject in Washington right now and then I just think we need to exercise more certainly and looked at this and you know they get uh we have a very very sporty
history fall off you know government and the branch of the know and in various forms can catalyst and so are what would be the you know it could be again we may get another the fall of the known Great Firewall of China just like we have you know the fall of the Berlin wall of remain that was a very abortion mango affair you know in the Iran-Contra scandal led to and I'm not sure which it would be um as upset you know I myself am very concerned about the direction the things that 1 and I think it's time for us to be paying more
scrutiny introduces on in a single step here and they have a voltage in minutes for questions and thank you very much but if it does dispute it does not fighting that is said in that state now desi nest well I have 1 question of your of studies is pretty much about of certain states that but of all the problems you talking about you also find in the west the much like supervision and control and I ask myself why you don't compared development in a constitution states the strong was so that this 1 the shiny and I was so happy that was not the message you wanted to send no I'm
actually are concerned about was happening in the west because I think a lot of decisions which are being taken and the final consumer like area for example they help to justified when the information in China you know I myself personally just happened for interpersonal distance much more interested in the kind of a future of freedom a certain states that's 1 looking into this matter but by no means mn trying to suggest that the situation the interacts with any better I think it's actually you know getting worse and think the consequences of it getting worse will be felt everywhere because you need to democratic societies someone towards more internal control insurer scouts are just a few past show I on the on the question this is something which I think you know do you in the last part of the well you know they're often the notes the use of society are competing on the dynamics and literature garden contacts between google and say you know and I think even of those contacts are not very meaningful in that they're all about technical matters eat dust research certain issues in the best you know raised many concerns and and I think even many of the certain governments which now want to build their own e-mail systems because they don't throw struggled and actually have a point and I'm not sure that Americans would be very happy enough of American government specifically would be very happy here for all the citizens that they e-mail on on you know about slide from by a Chinese company which had our quantity Chinese I know so some are more resumed up this has led to a there this but the it was a success with very little knowledge about the control techniques which are used by the services in the West that some of the problems I mean we don't know much about what is and so on and a common project has turned information the new those look on items that everything that I have to concentrate on something and as such is not identified yeah and you have rules I sold lamination did you didn't talk too much about a name but which was brought up in a recent you the talk with the ratio of the published in time for minus item in Germany where basically said that in that which range that can be the Revolution leader in the sounds of search anything new as we thought for a long time about an issue because it's just life only 140
characters still some the best has understood he was saying that well on this on the street is they they don't think anything through and now that can be a real revolution and then that's the Revolution any known and although I was I
what I want to ask is it what what do you believe we will adjust the our she should 2 days of Lucian it is not used in modern communications technologies in because
just shot child as a Saturday gaps outlined in and that's certainly not exactly where some them think that I wouldn't dismiss him people refer to the use of myself pretty active literally just that we have to understand that but here 1st of all many of those tools are not particularly suitable to planning the awesome initial upon the Westerner don't announced from every corner international out of phase and the argument that the Republic by nature I'm actually think 1 of the reasons why the Iranians did not lot of to learn and Facebook due to their progress was because they were used as very useful tools for intelligent gathering they just how was useful to care purity Facebook operational was you actually learn quite a lot about you know what people were saying who brought us the merging you know things like that and I I'm not and technological determinist you know so and by the fall cannot tell about her roommate from Washington possible could don't think it's all about here uh you know whether it the somehow pushes people who have not yet been induced importance to war it's kind of very naive interpretation of how social change happens I think yes I mean I don't I think it is a little you can change was better in undergraduate powers for China and there's something there are some practices you can enhance but primarily it's all about the real world actions it's getting engaged non-immunogenic up but the lesson I don't think it is an easy way out to those who have to go through all that stuff so from that perspective know I don't see you and have that and you're wrong you know can you have a meaningful campaign to raise awareness about a certain issue in democracies sure interest only a democracy the more useful there will be highlighting known the problems you working on it and so should it be publicized campaign in Germany and Britain altering you can get the medium to coarse
to act on the problem is that if you look at the country was no civil society what's the average electric managed standard is known to influence with the knowledge that is no media reports that will look at 3 r and c is popular pressure coming on its effects so on you know I'm not like I'm not subscribing to any deterministic views of all the plants in society that we have to get a much better handle all fossil societies work looking conclusions about technology but iterative density thank you but the 3rd such but because
of the high and so make forward into the new form of the here will but in Don much of the Kenyan and people know the questions it that the
so this so you have give it to the use In America defense effect
you know that many lessons and any and more cybersecurity and the State Department we needed Internet freedom of head and goes to work mentioned contradictory yes this is the come from 2 different places the faster and say that you see this as but attempts to but like that of American Internet and promote the the elsewhere always is the tension between 2 agencies trying to figure out how the American position on the you know I don't I don't think of the agencies are actually very rare pensions in I'm not sure that there is such a good conceptual handle the the intuitive issues in those agencies that that you understand that there are about to collide uh you know if you even if you look at Clinton's bitch units sort of getting you want to share but if you look at Clinton's speech from January she herself didn't embrace a picture and position she set on the 1 hand we need to protect the anonymity of all we need to protect the line but on the other hand many media are fools piracy and that hurts our companies you know so I don't think there is an inconsistency within specific departments but but I also think that you know that they they have to have priorities you know what the 1 and only 1 3 empowering and so that we want to defend Viacom in our then essentially again there because the few pockets useful later known it's just something that the the aware of but this so the size it's mixed in the back of
the norm of the day and also we have lost in the 1st figure right hand


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