What is behind the new Migrations


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What is behind the new Migrations
A Massive Loss of Habitat
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Sassen, Saskia
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The language of “migrants” and “refugees” is insufficient to cover a new type of migration. They are being expelled from their land and homes by major coporations grabbing land to develop plantations, the sharp expansion in mining due to the demands of the electronic revolution, climate change, the explosion in the building of new, often private, “cities” and office parks.
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home the young men in the interior of a
and well it's very nice to be here
again the triple-B can enter and delighted that you here but I'm going to be talking about is not as delightful R. s being here are it is what is happening in the world today which is on 1 feature of it which I want to put under the umbrella of a massive loss of habitat In order to explain some of the new migrations that are happening and found I've been doing research on this now and 1 way of starting is to say that we're dealing with tool familiar subjects in the current migration war refugees and the other the migrant but that there is also a 3rd there's a 3rd type of migrating subject to for which we lack language and I want to make that the migrant visible and 1 way of making that 3rd type of migrant slash refugee really visible is too bold to ask the question why are they moving there is no war where they're coming from why are they moving why
are they just and so the umbrella explanations that I want to give and separate dealing with a massive loss of
habitat due to climate change and I must tell you I think climate change is far too pretty a word climate change yeah that's it just sounds like give me more so I call it dead land dead water which is what we have been making so that is 1 reason the expansion of mining the expansion of land grants the expansion of cities all of these processes have the capacity to actually force people off their land and we're talking about people who may have been on that land for centuries or for both essentially but they don't have the papers they do not have the instruments to
show this is my land so it can be thrown out and the estimate is and every year million the up to 3 million people are displaced by 1 or another reason the the main argument that I want to make is that they are invisible to the of the law to the i of any kind of what did I make that noise any kind of authority somebody doesn't like what I'm saying that that is the issue here on and so my
effort is we've got to make them visible we've got to meet them into a subject that is recognizable to existing
law existing in all modes of recognizing subjects and frankly I also think that this is just the nearest beginning of that type of fuel this is going to escalate and escalated now the refugee is a well-established subject countries law there is a regime UN HCI in it may not work perfectly actually imperfect the everything is Frankie imperfect but there is a regime when they appear at our borders they can be recognized the law can see them the migrant is a very different type of subject the migrant is a strong subject she leaves behind a hole on a farm a family a community she wants to travel to make money support
that community the evidence is overwhelming that migrants and a lot of their money back home a she
strong this 3rd subject yeah that does not exist in the eye of the law is displacement that goes on and on where there is no war that is really the challenge and that is what we need to work at not let you start with some images that I think are stunning I like to say we made this 20 years it took us to get from this ROC will know where that is right the biggest 1 of the biggest internal ceased 20 years to this you must say that's a capability it's amazing that did
not fall from the sky we make that we make that in multiple ways with a mix of elements etc. and you have to say and it's amazing and not typical you capability has a positive meaning
a Maja said I'm not using it in the Amartya Sen sense at but I think this is a capability it's a negative 1 that I want to sort of a riff on that and say if we made this what else can we make that is positive can we actually make new regimes that address some of the issues that I want to talk about but the other thing is this is loss of habitat this was that you would see now it's a salt field so there's a whole new industry that can install itself there but it has wrecked this is an invisible history this is visible because the scientists at
documenting it but what has happened to all of those communities you not such a
huge see there is many many worlds around that c Goldman where do those people call some of them are probably illegal you know limits mix whatever in in Moscow so this is just 1 example this is another example this also we make this in 20 years it took nature a billion billion to produce we eliminated and he so when I'm also trying besides the destruction what I'm trying to get at is so we make the so we should be able to also make on all the vectors now here is
something closer to some of these expulsions these migrations that I'm talking about here this is land grants no land crabs have long existed in the United States used a lot of land in Kenya for
instance to raise cattle because cattle quite destructive we know that Kenya has vast stretches of dead plant thank you to the United States deployed you know using that to to grow cattle same thing in Central America a lot of dead plant so we have been
killing land for a while but there is so much of it it's shrinking not so here are some figures the this is just you know just 1 room sort of post 208 crises new face and the estimate right now is that where over 300 million hectares of land that have been bought and again sink the image here is a loss of habitat that people are partly appearing at our borders and it's especially Europe supporters at this moment because Europe is surrounded by other continents In Europe is sort of tiny compared to say you know the American so on and what happens here yeah is that there are about 100 firms as I said and about 15 governments that does include the United States that also includes Saudi Arabia and China at such and such and who are buying the land mostly to in this case this particular case I'm talking about is to develop Our plantation agriculture now to develop these vast plantations and you know the condition
agriculture is a bit destructive of land tried it does not enable land to have births just earth to have a long life smallholder agriculture knows how to keep that land
going for millenia yeah plantation Norway that's not the brought it's pesticides and fertilizers unit to get huge to get it growing fast and it all has to look beautiful and I don't know what so it's
a lot of chemicals and stuff like that now what happens here is that the smallholders and you know there's they don't necessarily of documents that say this is my land I've been living here my family has for a century for 3 centuries for who knows what they don't have that they're easily thrown out expansion of cities yeah easily around the city just moves in private communities office parks as a column part had nothing to do with trees is just a collection of high-rise office buildings there are about 500 new sort of cities office parks etc. that have been built in different parts of the world the over the last 20 years we're only going to be expanding our cities so that images is crawling apparatus this is just now talking about constructive that moves into land that was once held by smallholders smallholders I repeat know how to care for the last a city discovers it always cement then there is well let me just show you a bit here the are just figures by now the
numbers are higher as you can see Africa just look at the yellow ones Africa is the highest has the most but year has been growing very rapidly you may not be aware of it but let me give you 2 examples this is about Europe now
land grabs in Europe so and friends the sons and daughters of former farmers in France given the bad job situation this this is something that happened about 2 or 3 years ago I
decided well maybe the best bet for me is to pull back to the countryside and buy some land and do some very specialized farming or you know agriculture guess what no land for
sale it has been mostly bought up by large corpus Saudi Arabia has more or less bought up and the quot turrets Bosnia a lot of poor farmers they're retiring very quickly very much retired move very happy that the lands to to grow wheat to grow you know assigned of crop that can only grow in that land on so when you begin to look out it last example I want to give England England to has a huge sort of very has
a lot of green land a nice
Swedish firm you know this close maker NHM or something like that has bought a vast tracts of land in northern English now this why I don't know in England is very white maybe they want to bid more water than they get in
Sweden I really don't know what what that they bought it now the sit just examples of the north most of it is happening in you in
Africa really Africa parts of Asia and parts of the latin America no another point that I well let me just actually let me finish with this the now this is a very important data the that so much of
it is going into on into a mode of agriculture that uses a lot of poisons this biofuels the yellow is biofuels many people think that most of it is going for food crops we which would be fine as well you know but though they would probably have plantation mode so it's not graded biofuels is really bad because that means
you're growing crops that are not going to be Fort eating so you have no constraints on the amount of pesticides the amount of chemicals the Poisson's whatever you're using the you are making that land dead now again I want to remind you all of this is sort of under the umbrella for me of massive loss of habitat all kinds of plantations are being developed and when they killed after 20 years that plantation mode can easily wind-up with land that is truly degraded then they move on to the next point I so and and I don't have images to show you say for instance water graphs is a lot you know about nesting in coca cola your should know he managed to exhaust
to the underground water tables in particular areas of India which very highly populated content air our country which now without water they depend on trucks brought teen with water once or twice a week coca cola and
as they are also exhausting water tables in the United States and in the case of New York New York is a huge water reservoir and Coca-Cola digging
in and they pay almost nothing for that they pay what we pay for the war and then they sell it to us of course and at 1 point the governor told coca cola OK you're out of here California just discovered the governor that Mr. Lay was taking out water and it told mostly out of the 2 this is happening all lower in the meantime another governor invited nest late to come Nevada and take water now when you when you think about this
is happening in the United States is happening in in sort of northern countries imagine how the extraction works in global south countries so this is
extremely serious stuff now the background story here if we
take the use of this land to the killing of Islam quick killings that the issue is really how it spread and more and more of it is getting
lost and moreover and more of an moral land is also getting killed by other means so the image here is a real loss of habitat and I want to show you something that again this is thanks to scientists now we're all familiar with what's happening in terms of you know all of the temperatures and this is an
indicator of the death of earth so here are some of these you know this is the northern hemisphere I'm not talking about parts of Africa or what Asia that actually sort of degraded and talking about
the northern hemisphere so this is a land area with hot very hot and
extremely hot temperatures so here you have hot is this the blue this is very
hot and this is extremely hot now yeah that's just expanded the United States has an area that it calls modestly
the bread basket of the world that's not a modest image you understand but it is
the land where there's a lot of farming happening very effective farm when you travel through that it looks either pulled in beautiful gold the weeks or beautiful green depending on the problem so it looks alive it turns out that this again this comes from the scientists that the temperature of the Earth is getting hotter and hotter and hotter that
means it is dying it is simply die 1 data 1 to wake up as the books it's done and this has happened in California think California a lot of land is
now officially debt now this is the global north were supposedly we have last population that certainly in in in in the United States imagine see we don't have as good
data for the global south but imagine what it is a matter what it is in certain parts of India imagine what it is in certain parts of Asia at center and he here this 1 by the way all of this is
developed and many more graphs in in this new book of mine that is now also out in German and I can't remember the name that in English it's expulsions expulsions so it there there is a lot of data about all of this now as you can see these are this is where water is already limiting agricultural productivity and it is also in North America but it is certainly in you know it's all over the place it's everywhere so this is again this is a massive loss of habitat and if
you look at our current policies if we implemented although part of talking policies are not talking scientific discoveries and scientific instruments just policy if we implemented all the policies that we have sort of agreed on in the world that is a little difference it would make if we don't implement them it's the broken line the hyaline if we implement them it's the law line just a little like that but the proof is still very sharp In other words we have much more
negative coming and again the image here is this massive loss of habitat no it it if you look at the global south there is a whole new modes of I don't know what turned to use I don't like
it term imperialism here that I want to juxtapose it to older imperialism so so when Britain and France sent in all such where the big you know imperial powers 1 image you can
have is they wanted the whole of Africa they wanted the whole of whatever Indonesia whatever it was it and enter and became with projects like the french the famous mesial CVDs set these right that all the children no matter where in the colonies all had to be studying French and be reading the same books as they were reading in France at Miss you'll see these at the British the the the those sort of official domain nor the impart to run the empire India is investigates the subaltern is sort of in the literature 1 example you know that they had big projects today you know we still have big powers moving into whole areas that are not their country if
it's radically different and in that sense I think that just using the language of imperialism is not quite enough we should find other language so for instance the time is a very good
example here so and let me give you the latest case of China so China discovered a whole reservoir off uh minerals and metals behind real the genera and so it went in made an agreement with the government it developed the mind you know my needs to be developed it developed the mine then he developed the highway to bring the staff 2 of port that it also builds In order to then take it back to China when it is Don extracting all of that stuff from the mine another was a mine is done techniques and it keeps you know the road and the new board it is it behind at 1 hospital for its workers because they always bring in their own work so this is a very different mode and coming back to everything that I had said thus far 1 marking logic that you could use is that these are logics of extraction I think in my work I argue that finance as opposed to traditional banking is also not G of extraction and exception means once you branded you're out of you don't need it it's not like say you know
mass consumption being the dominant logic way 1 the sons and daughters to do better now when you deploy this sort of imagery to the
whole world in which we are dealing with is a massive loss of habitat the what we're seeing in Europe those
migrants were not coming from war zones and those were not just established long-term migrations there is that 3rd sector and that's 3rd sector is simply moving because the they've been expelled from their land now I am working in my current research on 3 flows and I 1 is Europe but I I want to the to talk especially about the 2 other ones which are less known now the kinds of shows that I'm interested in right now I'm not simply produced by war war is a massive event you know and yes people have to feet this is all on the more under the vector of loss of habitat but there is also a war like in 1 of the the the basically
violence involved so a first one tried these as the new migration flows Europe is 1 of them and I argue
that these flows are signaling the 3 flows 7 to talk about our our signaling are the making of new history and we should take it seriously I think that that's 3rd subject that I talked about at the beginning is an emergent subject and the scene were going to see much more of it and there is I repeat no regime that allows us to recognize them and to say OK with these other rights are they have the claims that they want to make sure I'm not the first one comes from Central America and it really is barrier at among all the other
frozen are coming from the region so both Mexico and the Central American countries minus so that all women the
would ask they have all kinds of migration flows I am picking out the migration flow that does not fit the established moles either refugee or I mean refugee as recognized by war refugee or the uh the uh you know the traditional migrant and in the case of Central America that 1 flow that often is sort of mixed up with all the other flows is unaccompanied children that means people are younger than 18 the young is that we know of is 8 they're on the company to there without parents without adults now you all know the famous in all the Mexico coming from Mexico how tough that can be how difficult etc. coming from Central America you 1st have got to deal with getting out of your own country and these are all countries with enormous amount of violence that you have to cross the border into mexico tough and they have to cross the whole of Mexico and then you want up in the desert of the United States if you're lucky the these are unaccompanied minors we know that the United States has received that they countered that they you know at center and they don't know what to do with these minor because this is no there is no law for there is no
specific law they have 160 thousand they're all undocumented there'll unaccompanied by the grown-ups there also children coming with
their parents this is just by themselves so this is this is mind-blowing and you know what to do when they arrive in the United States we don't know how many have died by the way on the road would mean kidnap toward now working on whatever plantations in Mexico we don't we don't have
the full figures that is just what the United States actually said OK here they are so the non-citizen know what to do with them because there's no regime really and so it keeps and sometimes that we know that some of them have been for
over a year in these makeshift buildings you know which are between prison and non prison but more like a prison so this is a this is a bit and real for now here are some of the figures but I want to emphasize here so this is Mexico Mexico is this color here so Mexico for the longest time was the key sources of that
here these are the 3 Central American countries
of order where the myelin on the with us and look at this again this is on a company children this is not old migrations this is just the children it somehow 2011 it begins to take off 2012 more more enables will we talk then there is a significant for you know why
because the United States and this is a fall in those who arrived in the United States that doesn't mean those we leave because the United States asked the Mexican police and military to stop them and give them money you know at the Mexico with those countries within my landlord essence of those who were coming from the now the Mexican police and not
necessarily known to have a great sense of fairness or you know care so this is to be held we don't know how many are you know what happens to the
but it has make and warmest difference In the numbers now I mean there is a lot to be told and I'm sure that many of you are familiar With the horror of crossing Mexico but this is on the right let me just show you a few more
just to nearly down here you see this is another version this is just those 3 countries and you can see that this is where by the way that the data comes a lot of the data comes from the government because the data is really based on those who make it
into the United States so Unisys has the data the government but you
can see that this happens at a certain moment pass it takes all now we are now have a 3rd 1 here in Central America could and to show this is yet another
this is Mexico there was a time when mexico strongly dominant and then look at this then you see these other 2 3 countries taking over so when you put that all together you have a question he said why what happened why at that moment does it take off like that now here's the simplest answer this is an so that the children give
themselves because they have been asked him interrogated so to speak why are you coming why are you leaving and the basic answer is fear because the citizens you know those 3 countries along with the 4th country that is not in the Americans other places with the highest level of killing in cities those places have
been wrecked by the wars of Central America that were totally abusive was for the United States played a very big role and it these kids are afraid many of them have lost their parents to death and yeah they leave out of fear now I 1 to examine that question if if I I accept I accept 100 per that the say I'm afraid I'm afraid I'm afraid that I can't live here anymore and so scared that they're willing to cross Mexico they are not stupid they know what it takes and so fear alone is maybe something that you can say OK that is why they move
but you have to go back and this is sort of a theme that recurs in this analysis of mind what is happening from where they are coming and I use that same Analyses for the land grabs in
Africa etc. right what is happening from the places where these people are coming from the and that is what we must ask we must not simply ask when they appear at our borders well hate show me what is your legitimation we must really begin to ask what is happening in Africa what is happening in Central America what is happening and of course what is happening for instance the Central America is a massive amount of land grants a development of mining and a further expansion off already long dead like so again a massive loss of habitat that that's an intermediated by a drop trade as 1 mode of making a living and a lot of physical violence in the cities of these countries but we can to simply say it's the drug dealers it's you know we have to look at how we have wrecked the countryside how we have wrecked the possibilities of small farmers to survive we have plantation
economy and we have cattle raising in Central America it kills the land it so again I just want to go to deeper uh
factories and I want to insist on the notion that we must we must begin to recognize this you know this loss of habitat when we're dealing with current migrations now Central America is extreme it's extreme in many ways it's much more extreme than say what is happening Africa which has so many countries so many different situations and more difficult to sort of explained to make work now the other migration I'm looking at
again a very particular migration is 0 hanging out and the Bangladeshi but that's just look at the of India as you know these are Muslims are living in a country that is mostly Buddhist Myanmar here's the explanation the explanation is some groups of particular section of the borders which are about peace and love you know have gone a bit crazy
and are now saying they have set this is sister that's a particular set OK the only way to deal with Muslims to kill killing is justified this has produced a sudden migration over the last 5 years the count is 160 thousand have left of this role he India they have been there for centuries their
peaceful you know they they're not you know like I see strikes in Afghanistan
warrant and MM union in in Iraq accepted the they're not now and that is the explanation no that's not the
explanation that the former explanation that I say no it is not so I went there with my lens is on you know this is how you are as a researcher you use your particular lenses to see so I my question was OK let me
check out again the loss of habitat situation here well Myanmar as you know opened up
it's our borders you know the regime change it's up to all kinds of investors it's set against what Louis in development of mines in Myanmar was a bit of a virgin territory in terms of the global corporate situation so paid all this amazing stuff that nobody has exploited or extracted thus far massive mining massive land grants the question of land and growing food or biofuel staff or is enormous throughout the world you know we we don't hear a lot about it in in Europe because is there are other concerns that is massive Sue here so the crazy borders monks who decided that it's legitimate to kill are there'll hand yeah i being seen as the calls for this migration not not the course is very different it said millions including
of regular army young myope people Buddhist you know just just farmers had being thrown off their lack go the and and that there is there is a lot of all stuff happening in there but the point that I want to
make is that it is again it's a massive loss of habitat that we see happening there in the form of using land that used to be for farming for living on and off using that for you know stuff that expels people so millions of being the running have just become a symbol of something that should be out of there that it is really the wrong explanation it it's like with Central America 0 it's the drug dealers no it's a much deeper story and here are I if people can
see this but the on-demand see you know
when everybody was talking about the Mediterranean the ships with floating people etc. are migrants
the same was happening in the Andaman Sea where you had ships floating you happened to the the to learn you know the smugglers who made a business out of it not you had ships floating that the estimate is at 1 point In undermined city this is also in the summer 7 thousand were seen in various ships many of these ships had lost power people dying you had women and children crushed you know by the sort of they were at the bottom of it all and this is an amazing story now the story has ramifications because you see that green
arrow they're coming from Myanmar into Thailand and Malaysia so here just to date and just to give you a sense of what the hell is happening in this world that we just don't
focus on so this junction here you see Thailand to and
Malaysia so they found because
of these flows of people in a bit of attention went on so they found all kinds of camps for basically prison labor ties and people from Myanmar a which were treated as slaves mean know the ties fishery industry has long been known to basically they it's a huge sector it's very profitable sector and they basically use people to what the user might slaves physical tribunal desperate try people come from the mountains integer but how can be found more they found a mass grave where is supposedly those workers whoever to all . 2 belligerent they call them this is a major issue right now now
also there which is dealing with is this strange mixture of elements you know these people that there are so many ties were still desperately poor and so much has been taken from them that they wandered in these terrible situation so you know now I have a few more aggressive I want to show you here I don't know if you can see this but this is found on I can't so these are here and a few people this year that estimated
bolt people departures from the Bangladeshi Myanmar border region that said region way up there is so here you can see sort of some of the numbers etc. etc. This is found this is a key smuggling that way you see that arrow you know that sort of again my image was when everybody was focusing on the
Mediterranean you know this past summer yes there is a Mediterranean and then there is the on-demand will hold on the now I just want to repeat something that I already said I am focusing on very specific flows you there are also in that region all their long-established those I'm speaking about flows that are emergent that are sort of new if you want that coming out of extreme conditions that we don't have good explanations for and so out of that then this whole question of the loss of habitat and and so here are the trafficking routs because traffickers of course they are the ultimate intermedia in this whole business and as you can see the Bangladesh is also a sorcerer Bangladesh's who are also leaving and you can see and so Indonesia an Malaysia very important that Indonesia has become Indonesia's you know has like 15 thousand islands that are but not inhabited down a lot of stuff is happening it turns out that doesn't nobody thinks about the those 15 thousand islands but 1 thing that was found was the shipping that the fishing companies a big fishing companies they have settled some of these islands with their shapes and their workers and key workers like in a
prison camp so in Malaysia that has become very visible so guess what the occupying some of those Indonesian island what 15 thousand islands is no government can keep control over that so when I look at the world I see the whole set of dynamics in these extreme cases I'm looking on extreme cases recognize are extreme cases that they produce a geography of if you want utility how can we know the set geographers they're being used like the Indonesian case that I just mentioned and how you know the Sarah all these error signals that of extreme conditions 5th extremes this is not the on-going migrations it's not even the ongoing refugee fuels are this is something else this is of a brutality that is almost inconceivable all now here again this is just a real Hindi on these are some of their migration now this is also part of the world that many in the West and on massaliote familiar with many have you know you you you you can see it for yourself the so and I want to begin
to conclude and hope that we can have some questions and when I when I speak about yeah a massive loss of habitat I am using the term habitat I aim at using Chem habitat in its fullness habitat is the possibility of living making a living making a living not as in making money but is aimed at you know it could be making money but it can also be making your fault selling food to survive it such you habitat in this fake beautiful way and the
project after having document it all not not yet been documented for here but you know in my larger writing and set traps that I'm busy with the project really is an to generate
the possibility of the making all the subject I'm talking people had not issue keep who is profoundly affected by some of these chance I've just described few that are extreme ways in which we deal with a larger habitat of the world starting with the you know the oral C in all of that class and the more particularly developments are the destruction of so much land in Central America Central America is 1 of the areas of the world that has the most dead to more than Africa that can that's that's the United States has sold plantation and the cattle raising that's not bombing war that's just an economic mode so there is something about how we have handled the global habitat that
has had this 1 consequence the shrinking of livable space so I think I mentioned it
already but the chapter that got me most going in my expulsions book was a chapter in the last chapter which I called debt and debt water because really it's just saying climate change it's not enough to pretty it still so it's hard to we need to
develop this is my final image we need to develop regimes that any number 1 produced a subject for the eye of the law for the high of the political for but especially at this point let's say the law international law the that we can recognize that we
say yes this is a subject we have done that for war refugees countries most countries in the world have some version of an immigration policy we have done it for immigrants we have not done it for this time off
individual host simply has no place to live in because they have been thrown out because war because poisonous land from the mining or the plantations and that is in a way might call if there is 1 the positive want to extract of what Europe has gone through in the last really it started I would say it took off in November 2014 in the Mediterranean when the European Union said we close my nostrils just at the wrong moment thousands and thousands of people
drowned in the Mediterranean same time
thousand thousand were drowning in the Andaman Sea they gotten far less attention at home but there is 1 thing that we can get out of the european case is not so there is a kind of subject that we have difficulty recognizing we don't know what to do with that subject I n end and I think about the question
for me and what Europe has given us is these types of migrants what are they telling
me about what's happening from where they are coming if it's not
more the and it's somehow neither is it that there is something good that they leave
behind these are migrants for home home is now a plantation mind it's covered with water and climate change it's desert climate change or its build up terrain they are not the migrant as I started
out the strong figure who he's behind something that she wants to keep on contributing to and Michael back to
nor are they war refugees around awards and they have fallen into a kind of blank because we have no regime that makes them visible to the law so that we can recognize and hence sort of deal with them so that is sort of my call and I thank you very much for your attention Thank you and so thank you very
much that is as an olive grabs the
questions with global moments let other yes of course
yeah yeah spends a lot by members of much of the inter-speaker detention I tried the make microphone works on are you work and live currently ninja uh work of course successes in uh Central America and I have 2 questions if I understood you
right you spoke of some 3 million migrants of that so to sector I imagine that the numbers only in India as big as that in 1 year so where where does is number of 3 million you'll need the money I maybe I was just unstated 2nd question just to be very sought to give someone else the chance I didn't quite understand that you I know this is the situation in Central America very good that's a very complex situation alright many decades and over many centuries and I
didn't understand quite well in Europe uh argument of loss of habitat for a Central America or something as long as it is more than the sender as all these were were very adventurous cities spectrum mention rank you OK let me to start with the 2nd 1 because that's such as you just put in India so the at the typical explanation those who are aware of these show the this migration of unaccompanied minors I'm not using all the models I'm just using wire unaccompanied minors taking this absolute risk off leaving that's the question in the giza whether my the typical answer might be when users speak with the people who are aware of all of this is urban violence urban violence has escalated you know as I said they're ranked among the most this is a city story and and many of them of lost their parents of course to Gunsalus gangs it's just out of control end to end and that is the immediate cause that is what the kids will tell you they will say I'm afraid to leave the house because I can get killed the like on the I think it just I mean if the numbers are extraordinarily high for that among the highest in the world as i said no I the I accept all of that stuff facts yes urban violence is what makes us the I as a researcher I have to ask more and see what else why all these urban violence what has happened why are these the Central American countries absolutely extreme against a global context at that point I enter the question of OK how many people have actually moved from the countryside to the cities quite a few there is almost no possibility to be you know got to have a reasonable life in the countryside because of a lot of it is large plantations but all of it is dead land so that is where I get so I want to get at a deeper calls than urban violence urban violence is the standard answer and explanation I repeat and that's what the kids say there is a truth to that the question is why why is it so absolutely extreme guesses the drug trade but there is more and I am always interested in seeing what is in the shadows all the most self-evident explanation Out of that then comes looking out OK what what is happening in the northern urban areas z and then you get to this a lot of Atlanta's militarily control plantations no that's not pleasant and a lot of it is that Central America as 1 of the highest rates of dead plant you know given its total surface so that is sort of what I was doing now on the first one what did you say about the 3 million I didn't get that part I detention member none of it cool where the 3 million it is that someone other can ask a question I thought you spoke of 3 million people worldwide of that 3rd sector but maybe Nolan military so forget about no I think it is probably many more but you know it's it's not known I down sorry I didn't at and say that but what I said if I now I know the estimate is that that being sort of are expelled from your land is about the estimate is between 2 and 3 million every year and that includes a lot of small farmers that's what we're talking about and that is worldwide that is happening in in the you know in India a lot of sense here in India a lot of land is being used to create these new urban you know fancy whatever gated communities where you want to call them so that includes a whole world that is in young this is now happening at a very accelerated scale it wasn't happening 5 years ago you know is now happening so that is that figure so again that figure was 2 . 2 to 3 million every year is the estimate from various experts all around the world this very complicated node and unreliable data that was that figure the although thank you very much but that's about it that about the half of alright thank you for thank you to them yeah


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