Beyond privacy

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Beyond privacy
The human impact of drones
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What is the real impact of military and policing drones, and what is the way forward? This workshop will aim to go beyond drones' effect on the right to privacy and examine the impact felt on the ground, by examining the arguments for and against the use of drones, sharing the experience of people who already live under them, the precedents that are being set through these practices, and the safeguards we need to set.
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home the landmark and a and dozens and
talk a bit about our talk a panel would you more state is about exactly that's topic so if go beyond privacy of the human impact of drones and I will welcome on the stage and Jennifer Gibson at
group don't and that the Matthias gender
and last but not least pose sort of the discussions very high everyone
and remains a DT that I am what for global time instance to the London where we worked concepts and human rights in the digital context and to uh kicked things off today for this session of the UN privacy the human impact trends I wanted to 1st ask the audience what does the word trend mean to you can just shout out anything and just a word or a phrase the
bonds anywhere today which was that might have had any anything
know flying robots Peter the weapon had that kind of good but while those of spectrum of pizza and bonds and you can see that translinolenic different things to different people and you know unmanned aerial vehicles all that commonly known I use of phi wide variety of sentences from and supporting kinds conservation projects and like the monitoring of poachers in Africa and to you know promising deliveries stages you know being the latest of I Tajik President and making some Wednesday and at that stage and so we did talk about drugs all day and believe me I'm sure we'd have a lot stuff about but for the purposes of this section I'd like to narrow down our focus and linking it turns killing in the security sphere so the use of drugs by governments and to protect citizens in military operations abroad and pleasing so and we decide to focus on this aspect of German uses debates around this particular form use optically ferocious as with different sides emphasizing different impacts of how these this technology is used unanswered doing with and creating a whole new vocabulary of not only seeing what this technology is that I'm changing how we think about security about welfare our rights and about human lives at home and abroad In the last step the public imagination tends to categorize drugs and entirety mass surveillance primarily concerning privacy and to the changing harmful effects of being watched and monitored and under impacting on on the rights of freedom of expression freedom of assembly as well however on the other side of the world in places like Pakistan
Syria and Yemen Somalia turned a scene is primarily a steady work with surveillance serving as a means to play a metric and that's that's science you and with dressing interstate this panel aims
to go beyond drugs effect on the right to privacy and and look at the impact felt on the ground and examined the arguments for and against a users sharing the experience of people who already live under them and so they're looking at the precedents that because that and the safeguards that we need to set to do this and that discussion will be set around 3 questions up it and so where does the use of drones fit into the
bigger picture of global security see what impact imaging pleasing don't have and then what comes next
so we have our wonderful fans speak this of Polish Schulz
but is a nonresident senior associate in the Carnegie Endowment Nuclear Policy program and secular joint after decays Council Christian approaches to defense dominant and fellowships and research the King's College the Defense Academy of decay and display of Oriental and African Studies is also held senior positions in the UK Ministry of Defence has been steeped speed right to fit to UK defense secretaries don't forget sending areas as soft any
reprieve election June in London and she veterans worked in practice on prior to joining the free of Jennifer was at Stanford University where she co-authored living and it turns 1 of the most comprehensive accounts of
the impact of Trenton that today button Jennifer and pulls Service is on the University of Birmingham's police commission on the security impacts drought not the center and is a valine based technology Rights Act advocate communications strategist and creative director if X is understood censorship and the social impact of emerging technologies is a parody project strategies for online censorship doubled that so let's get started with our 1st question it let us these a transfer into the bigger picture of global security
policy to create a visual starting point I wanted data as to which too short clips and the 1st illustrate straight data 100 strikes in Pakistan today and the 2nd 1 outline some of the latest developments in policing
trends a you to the attention
yeah it it it
that says he can see them the bars and the top like act and civilian counts and and they grazed other the high-value detainees and we should see how this strikes increases as time goes on when asked us because about what this signifies and but I leave it to them to have that debate and then next we has all the things that is now legal for North
Dakota police to use drones to fire cases and tear gas at people thanks to the work of a lobbyist who
represents law-enforcement and has ties with the drone industry a bill was passed by the North Dakota State how's that allows police to use armed drones
after obtaining a search warrant from a judge North Dakota please can deploy drones to collect real-time intelligence video for criminal evidence these police drones
however are now also allowed to carry less than lethal weapons like rubber bullets pepper sprayed teargas sound cannons and traces but even less than lethal weapons and
killed according to the Guardian at least 39 people have
been killed by police phases in 2015 With
these weapons police could potentially violent criminal suspect's from far away was like how US therefore strong pilots Bomblies militants from 10 thousand miles away according to the FAA
401 drone operations were undertaken by the Grand Forks County North Dakota Sheriff's Department in the past 3 years the there were only 21 flights girls is seen as a positive thing in North
Dakota which according to the Daily Beast maybe the reason why few people noticed when the House bill passed with a clause allowing them to be armed with less than we've the last nite is weapons and have
and so if the go back to the question the and so if maybe equal if we start with you where does these in the bigger picture of global security
policy and perhaps you can talk a bit about the vote of trends and and how they use has evolved right well we should understand the adrenaline is not a simple thing
it it can have a number of meanings
isn't the flying report because it's remotely piloted so far off the maybe Artificial Intelligence coming along and we should worry about that and talk about it mostly rightly policy vehicles have been used for some what school I saw that's surveillance targeting and so they're mostly that kill people themselves they communicate with all the weapons systems or people who move in and yeah that kill or capture that that's the vast majority of June years later yeah maturation of technology which have made drones such a big deal has happened with the spread of the war on terror to very threatened of Fulton so from Israel America have pioneered by bringing together all chronic and uh like materials and satellite hampered communications to create the what we call these easily that the killer and they have use them as a weapon of
choice to go into areas which would otherwise otherwise be centralized uh drones seemed to be a lesser category attract transgression when they cross borders and
people don't protest too much states tended to UN about it so we see a challenge to existing concepts of international law by the use of our almost drones to kill terrorists in in what would otherwise be the centuries mostly those for propyl war high-intensity war drones on still not very useful because they can't defend themselves against ground defenses or an enemy fighters that may change as we get still drones coming along which remain developed but at the moment trends in combat are used in low-intensity combat assymetrical warfare counterinsurgency counterterrorism and that's really where at the moment how it's going to go in the future we can talk about later the moment these unleash weapons for particular kinds of campaigns which should capture the global imagination thank you full of this
anything you like to add to that the things you differently right yeah many many tickets might be and different tax from Paul here because what I do is work with the
civilians were being killed by the terms of so I have a very different perspective on what they mean for security and and what these potentially mean for the changing dynamics of how we fight for and that graphic he saw that DT put up and is a region in Pakistan that is and I don't have the German equivalent apologies for How the Germans and they equivalent the size of Wales in the UK we are talking about a very small area where the US over the course of the last 7 years took over 400 strikes me when I say strikes I don't mean 1 missile each strike can have up to 4 munitions releases OK we're talking at 1 point at the height of the German warranted in 2010 2011 where you had and missiles being dropped once every 3 days on the population of the rest of the time the Germans are heading exactly what Paul talked about which was I S and the problem with that is the population below they did know when they were doing I sorry when they were launching missiles do you have constant care on the ground as to whether the drone hovering in buzzing overhead was going to fire that day the next day when it was in a fire at the market when you went to get groceries what it was a fire a neighbor who was going to fire on how and you had a lot of deaths of 1 of my clients with a 14 year old boy who survived a strike with a lot of injuries but his entire family was killed it was Obama's 1st right books have come out saying that Obama was told immediately he killed civilians but to this date we haven't been able to get even
acknowledgment of the US Government better he they took the strike much less that they killed for his family injured him now that is
part and parcel of what we're calling germ warfare which is for some reason then we can unlock the why this technology has enabled countries to launch strikes in areas where they otherwise would not want strikes and to do so in a completely in holy unaccountable way where they don't need to acknowledge that they don't need to be transparent on what they're doing I they basically don't need to tell you anything and for that kind of an that shift in security policy which we've seen replicated in Yemen and Somalia and elsewhere it's a significant shift because we now somehow got ourselves with this new technology into a state of not war but not for the people on the ground this they let's make no mistake about it for my clients living in Pakistan US has gone to war with them from the U. S. respected they're not at work in Pakistan Yemen Somalia in any of these places in so there's absolutely no democratic accountability at the other end of the spectrum thanks 10 and so looking at and then transfer this kind of technology from the military and middle of military Duffield to the domestic sphere
when looking entrances to policing Matty do you have any and comments on where the trends these fixed will you before word is going to the municipal police issue I think that for node so all the
song that this is a new technology and but the same time right now we're seeing covered the construct of existing rules of war more or less that's being used as the we were still think there's not as much retaliation on of UN level but at the same time it's still a tool of global had to the hegemonic powers and I think is important to note that the US and is reeling country because of that what oftentimes in the international scene or out sort the using rules don't apply to 2 these countries as other countries but we organize rapidly same from development in China and Russia and so it is also was forced than the bigger global security issue right now kind of feeling comfortable with it because it's governments that they about transparency but that we're used to the sort of actions but all my concerns is that the arms race of could be building in drones is not gonna be secluded to you places far away in rural Pakistan that's this could be increasingly a new vector for for warfare and right now it's somewhat contained too few states but there's a rapidly developing technologies going on of all across the globe the the minuscule let down on commercialization size of were focusing on today but the or incentives inside of the from the but the economic side and also the the military side
having that not having a pilot so In an aircraft people to do some things that's you solely beautifully done with with conventional aircraft and but we or were of the view so no police departments especially in
in the US or using drones for surveillance and it's not not just surveillance between this is part of any of a larger cannot call on the street level surveillance of predictive policing and so I think that 2 the poor civilians and and that is and this is a technology that rapidly coming to our doorsteps is anything and you pull a chain you would like to add to that I won't ever coming from Britain which has the distinction of it is a distinction being the most of the old country in the world with CCTV on every street corner because we have a long campaign with the RA um the additional difference of having grows in the sky seems from the UK point of view not not so great shooting from the sky in in the domestic situation is is to cross a symbolic boundary I I think that British police and bring and in general European police and politicians
would these would easily accept and I also think especially having been to always fascinating new paranoid sessions here
about our data in security and um the spooks screw character geometry we shouldn't forget that at the moment if if your if the concern is about government surveillance there is an enormous amount of data that governments or something in every day and the problem is is too much of it for the problem from a constant perspective so the amount of differences and additional items violates when added to cameras on the ground or secret policemen with long zoom lenses treating from cause it seems to me it's something we shouldn't exaggerate so what what is the use bringing
transplanted coming in aged node that anything that wouldn't make much of what my impression is they're not in most countries being used a great to for
the domestic policing uh in a way that you would draw helicopter please have helicopters they they do traffic surveys um but there and then they've they follow what um shootouts and people inflating costs that already happens with helicopters to some extent I think friends of beginning to um replace some of that although the drums of fragile only break through the various services and you have broken them wrote rather oftentimes they they debated transform situation they may slightly improved these capabilities and in some situations I would like like
culture that is lower than letting the drones give the give police departments across the of
is this kind of monitoring and that the passive monitoring of things and why I'm quite concerned about this is if you or in in area and and at think when we see a lot of these of drones being introduced whether it's in refugee camps or in a inside of communities that are already maligned this this on the sky allows also play back then I think it right now CCTV cameras allow this as well but they're not always so effective but I am quite concerned that as these technology cheaper than in that the helicopter still requires refueling and so requires at least 1 of the pilots and maybe even someone on surveillance but the cost of 1 helicopter you by 15 drones and have been circling around the city for security especially in response to a terrorist attack or something then working now giving states that were some state
there actors like police departments and the ability to have been recall what happened before
events something's got the minority report in reverse where I can now see what happened before and events and I don't see a lot of disincentive for police departments or or states to not have any sort of new surveillance uh tools because those sold to the public of this will allow us to identify crime better or people identify the suspects in case and so if they have the price of 1 helicopter can have 15 drones see disincentive why would they have assisted Thank you write that started in Afghanistan on to
try and identify from explicit mind lot who had later playback video or the with this was almost never possible because it is so this intensive and but that's that's that was the intention if that would happen with a bank robbery why would that be a bad thing to be able to to trace back where where people came from the 1 of the things that I think is the challenge here is is is
part and parcel the broader challenge which is that governments has started to think that data and visual surveillance somehow gives them a substitute for understanding the human dynamics what's going on and and I think you're absolutely right and I think 1 of the things Bonner discusses year for murder occurs we do not want rewind the tape and see who committed the murder to make sure that you actually charging the right person it because anyone here who would wanna say that I think are would wouldn't wanna do that I think the danger and what we see constantly with government with new technologies and the end and elements like this is that it's a slippery slope between just using it to catch the murderer and then taking another step and maybe trying to predict when the murders going ahead to try to figure out who might be a murderer and before you know it you suddenly started charging people with crimes that they've not even committing you started punishing and
we've were already seen this in the context of the war on terror punishing thought versus actions
you're starting to charge people for even having the thought rather than actually can be cast out
and and and that's it that's the that's the germs pose in a in a foreign contacts outside of domestic context
we seen this happening we've seen this so-called thrown wars use patterns of behavior from the sky to try to bend take out militants the result from the CIA the CIA their own records which a journalist at a hold of in 2013 is the women have attended in whatever killing they could even say they were killing al-Qaida in Pakistan they just have a label people militants because they didn't know who they were killing on the ground investigations were consistently showing those were civilians and people who work at it's OK so you have this kind of well you know the famous times quote from a CIA agent when the antennas of 3 men and fielding jumping jack to that of the terrorist training but these are real problems that it's something that while persistence fruit surveillance
can give you a sense from the high in the sky that you actually understand what's going on you don't understand what's going on because you don't know you can
hear the conversations you don't know the people are you don't understand the local customs my favorite is our we work with an an investigation of a wedding party in Yemen it is 1 of the only sites where the US week they were going to conduct an investigation baby anonymously 3 weeks later they anonymously with the results of that investigation and found that have offered people killed in the wedding party were militants because they had guns ATM and they were going to a wedding of course they had guns everyone on the ground was flabbergasted by the response I would also argue if you're in Texas that means half of Texas is no target but there's a reality here that you if you don't understand culture you don't have a human dimension behind the sky tells you absolutely nothing and non contributors and and
this kind of to to push back a bit leasing American context like a set on and a constitutional level
every concerns 1 it's the chilling effect or you into the 1st amendment there the freedom of expression and assembly if we start looking at places in which the people are assembling then I think there can be a chilling effect of free expression and the I think that's a unlawful search and seizure what constitutes what constitutes search in the age of and on and on the present drone in the sky and 3rd if i in their place and Ietters drunk footage of me and the other element of the data points point to me could I be prosecuted for libel could my presence in a particular place be seen as an admission of guilt and so I think is also and the self then the the I think that they can the students of saying that I don't have to testify against myself and I think that's by having an eye
in the sky with playback that inferences to be made in combination with other data in which that we could there could be potential issues about my in my presence a place would draw without context inferring don't always seem to be saying what really
matters is what happens to the data the who has control over and in all these information of what kind of fusion areas now but that seems to be a matter of of constitutional control of legal and political decisions it is quite possible to imagine that you could have special restrictions on data feeds coming down from the top of a inverse Grenville in the local politicians could stand on a platform of having that kind of states can have but I think it will be very different position between states but it's perfectly possible say which we take a very restrictive view on this in 1 country but others were feeling for a cultural or historical reasons abrasive threat we remember our mother and another perspective if your voicing concerns about the US will understand that but
it's not necessary so strongly felt and in all the countries in other situations that plane and then move on to the next question stick to time it actually ministries diddly because now we should look that adamant that real impact of
heating and trends imaging policing its and we just get to the east of the to set by
impact image increasing trends have as an actor another visual cue stimulus as you well and we have a really show clear a faint interview of an and set of someone in accent users find that
we want want to look at them low dispersal who was the sons of the contribution of those
options throughout the a to what would be the the the but also the above model but you were removed that the Mitchell
overlapping might get that idea will be messianic of the Colombian some distance commit is it gonna I'm out
in them new that z and they give the same with the of only
he said no in Connecticut if of overlooking of the of set up public you
but many go a year for it cannot be the and the application of me but can become good collateral would just about the linear fit enough that the audience here on the wall of the
and so when looking at the impact we've already touched upon understood psychological impact that but do you want to expand a note on here I mean it that and the true reason white vocal and what you
think is happening in with this year's stand reamers when my clients he's actually in a lossy right now and in Pakistan against the CIA for murder of his son and his his 18 year old son and his brother and this New Year's Eve 2009 but it here here's the reality of kind of living under terms in these places which is we don't tell them was an oculist of we don't tell them who were targeting and because things like signature strides where you're targeting based on patterns of behavior they also can figure it out just like I don't know what all of my neighbors are doing they don't know what all of their neighbors are doing so very basic activities like talking to someone in the market or are going to neighbors house suddenly take on a life and death dimension because you can hear and see the drone overhead and nobody's told you I'm who
attaining and I remember 1 point a US official time yeah but haven't stuck in 6 months so this is just silly but nobody told them we
work in a strike for 6 persons so there's a problem then saying they're not afraid of the Germans just because we haven't stopped the other thing I would say is that what creams getting out when he's talking about the anger is this is then a highly counterproductive program so whether you wanna buy the legal arguments were the ethical moral arguments about whether we should be running hit lists around the world with these things but in places like Pakistan and Yemen because we've killed so many of the wrong people you're generating huge amounts of anger and the best case I can give you the counterproductive and nature of the program is 1 my clients by the Ben Ali Dobra is an engineering and his brother-in-law was in a mom who on a friday preached against al-Qaida in his community in on a Tuesday was killed in a trance the impact it had on his community was a meant any reason we think he got killed this because his sermon anger 3 local youth nobody knows who they are they showed up in the community and wanted to meet with them he took a local policeman with him because he wasn't worried about the drone overhead at that point he was worried about the 3 many was meaning when as soon as they stepped out of the mosque a
adjourned shopping killed all 5 of of them the impact on the community was that the youth
and thought OK well if the US is gonna summarize al-Qaida I might as well be al-Qaida because they don't seem to be distinguishing is you and I think this is really important things for us to grapple with in terms of what it looks like from the other and and many porous anything you'd like
to respond spin Tanzania I II and understand where the conversation keep coming back to Americans trillions in with 0
staff and and and Yemen but that isn't the whole story and combat drones have been used in hot theaters where there is a UN recognize stays with him and internal war like um Afghanistan on being used in Iraq and Syria now against the Islamic State in just the same way as men and aircraft with just the same kind of military and the legal justification so and that's actually a majority of the use of that is happening with common trends in the world today and and the Americans haven't struck focused on from uh among photo and minuses so mn but may well with the campaign is hot enough against the Islamic State so that it that is the rate that the major statistical reality of growing use in the world states and if you don't like it if you like that part of it than that I can understand that but then you have to be against man that power and then you have to be against Western troops and you even have to be against Iraqi troops who were fighting Islamic state
and with Kurdish systems you you would have resembled they are not entitled to get the support from programs and that takes you to very
strange territories and if you say this weaponization uniquely demonic become be used anywhere then the that's how to fit in with and with any concept of on conference I I think so we shouldn't we shouldn't forget you can have never tasteful but at least legal and sensible ground combat use and that that is the majority of the story remember severely impacted the
impact on civilians do you have the there the review has any response pass the the logical path and they use the you laid out I think to at
1 end getting away from Waziristan and you as this US imperialism there were almost talking about in the US a special case but what's up with the scalability of adrenaline for a on a global Russia is now building John flight meaning the even so what means technologies even pass trans gliders and what not serving about global strict people's yeah but what I think that if we're talking about a unified system of global drone use then it and OA I guess is a possible if you think it's possible would be what so what would it mean to be human and then at the end of the day where what rights to I have as an individual in a in a time in which the in 1 place the world drones or a delivering packages but also sucking up data and the place that the raining down on fire from the sky this is a new technology but I
do think because it has commercial applications that it's it's it's we have to see it not just as a as a
substitute for fixed-wing aircraft but start thinking about it in a way that this is the the amount of I did a file they can be learned in messaging about me and put into fusion centers as well as what it means for the chain of command as well as the 1 in in worth Peters but I think maybe we there may be such thing as a global treaty um on on drones is not possible but what would you say that the base of the guiding principles of you know it is on the um
and recognition of the the reality which is there is no global system for controlling the spread of DRAM technology it is there's no treaty in
prospect there's no set of export-control guarantee like lots of things in the high-tech parents fostering and out of control and and anything which doesn't come to grips with that reality and part of the reality is that terrorists non-state actor groups are going
to start using protons back in
that it was always clear they would America have been abortive attempts but they will do and it it'll be partly as a kind hostile nematic look we're doing this you could do it to us and that'll be my top um that's
inevitable but we have to just do not splatter 0 at what at and your
question was a mean to a human being is not structuring it's in it's a very serious question book but actually what it means to be human being is that you are exposed to a lot of unpleasant thing that's humanity in the 21st century as it always has been and unless 1 can see realistic ways of reducing that protesting the human condition doesn't get us very far but I think this was thing and it's not really on on public but there is a lot
of research going into eponymous within platforms and deepen governments defense ministries have signaled they are also interested in letting machines make
decisions and so we're talking about now is just is down aircraft essentially the mirroring fixed-wing aircraft were helicopters as well but we are now at the the beginning of an epoch in which the machines may very soon in some countries have a capacity to make a decision on who lives and who does not live you and that's uh that's a scary
and a largely bad things and most western governments will decisively against that
it isn't clear what the Russian Traditional Chinese or other people's positions and and up there by that get Jennifer skepticism even Western
governments can't prove that they're not working on something in in some abroad and this is made in terms of arms control were dressed
and is doing this this is a matter of how do you verify this if you if you have a set of of declarations or even if you had a treaty how would you know that somebody else was doing AI experiments in the lab somewhere and
when we speak about harm to civilians but is that really mean you know there
is obviously the death toll that as well as that 1 of the things that we're trying to reduce when you talk about the
global standards by the I think some part of this is maintaining reasonable respect for international law would would would
behave in response yeah I mean I guess I guess what I would
say is i equals absolutely right and in certain contexts in declared war zones like
Afghanistan and like a rock but you have drugs being used in much the same way that there have to be there providing protection for troops on the ground they're providing straight capabilities and in active hot battlefields I think the problem with the technology in of really not server the prominent politicians at the technology could I feel my mother the technology is in is being used by and large complies with international law the problem is is that the temptation to use the outside of the bounds appears to be too great for the politicians to resist and so well we can say right now it's this is real and US and I would be halfway added UK in there and then we can leave it to the side thing upon I disagree the when you got
the prime minister standing up in September insane you departure for us we're gonna take a strike in an area where Parliament told as we did not have authority to strike in a targeted kill type fashion
but that is the US carbon copy model especially with you when you follow it up with we don't have to tell you anything and we're not going to tell you anything Parliament were the public but aside from that there seems to be this kind of and temptation to use it and the reality is if the US like it or not set precedents 8 sets the rules for how we play the game and right now it's been playing the game in an extremely dangerous fashion for 7 years while Europe sat quietly binding criticize either because it wants to use them for because the thing about how the
size of the president-elect here and so we have real danger here now is China comes online with these
things in Pakistan's now used it in a wrong tries to develop it it you're suddenly going to have a whole bunch of countries who we would in no conceivable way want them to use them in a way that the US is using them suddenly thing although you know just across the border in the South China Sea that that the Japanese cities there might be a terrorist on there or or on taking a strike Saudi because there's this there's a number of a terrorist there I mean that the lack of transparency and accountability has created presidents and rules that should terrify everyone including you and I think I think
the question of the freezing of global security and it is to disassociate this from just
military because I think the thing is what now what the refugee migrant crisis you know in in Europe and that makes headlines get I think what we're gonna see is drones used for surveillance and perhaps even targeting but even from the surveillance uh perspective on the most vulnerable communities and this is going to rise in refugee camps in words it's more convenient to cheaper to have a drone overhead and then having guards walking through
a walking through can't of the but it's not just this technology is also combined with facial
recognition with other ways to track people in the Bay area in distances go if you look at a heat map of where a police license plate readers Auwera and catches are being used to simulate cell towers in and I from so this is this is in places this is not it is not known in view and its place in which the vulnerable communities and In goal was to that when it comes to the flow of people and 2 point the organ or bad people out there but to what degree or we're going to let the scary in would be terrorists dictates an entire global policy that could affect or it was going to
primarily and and and upon antigen affect those who or you don't have a voice don't have you don't have legal
recourse and don't you don't have look the don't have anyone standing up for them and that's that's my concern that there's always going bad people out there but they were not thinking of without seeing this in the context of the super slope and that was actually going to be a victim of the throne to not just maybe not a admissible sky but but a constant was looking for the panopticon there this histamine whether the human costs of drawings Holland if the if your point and I understand that the
the the the passion behind is that states can misuse a whole
nexus of high technology options and aerial all sorts and that's all true we we can all send bad ways technology that but then the important thing is not to get hypnotized warm particular type but to look at the control arrangements in the political system of the legal system what a conversation we haven't even really begun to start a neural over
a much in the in the US what what is the way in which we want to electronic privacy and visual privacy hand what what what rights doesn't have to so to to one's
body in the way viewed inches trade off screen that that's that's a key and it's then it's not of course just governments it's it's big companies who will be operating because of cameras which were recorded great data um and fly uh delivery systems again those recalled data so it's it's it's big companies and government and small hobbyists and not cases what do we think about that uh that whole range of visual possibilities at and to talk about the dreaming of Waziristan which I agree is legally problematic and
horrible we could talk further about its overall strategic impact which is a complicated matter in itself but it misses the point of
this but of this bigger thing we're all to have to live with on all streets and our and and in the media as our houses thing that segues quite
neatly into our last question which is what next and I think
as we have not very many much time left at home and if each if you have and maybe a couple of
minutes of summaries on the body think is the future and what could be a solution of what what are the 1st steps and all the red lines in going forward and then we can have some questions seconds so as to reduce the size
of the so we we the the 4 of us make it stands and to me that the word
that i'd like to introduce you to drop on your right now is the idea that drones but this would be Ombudsman for drones um and and I think all pointed out that that this fusion of data coming from so many different sources is really at the heart of it really comes down what does privacy mean in this panel panicked college not just about or or it's keystrokes but there's also no eyes in the sky and so I think the 1 practical thing would be for what on corporations governments and police departments to be able to have an outline of what handles or who has access to this data where is it go and how is it was able to access it and it was looking up things like machine learning water actually we did properties of these databases that are learning is it if there's a drone driving around in a black neighborhood and that's all it sees it is is the machine learning going to start suspecting a particular the type of person because of the
way that we live or what they look like and so 1 of the equations that I would have would be some sort of
civilian oversight for municipal police departments and the data this is stored outside of traditional fusion centers and this data needs to because of privacy implications uh needs to have additional level of oversight and so I would say that the go the other thing is I think we need a larger conversation about what is the exceptional and a reasonable act text expectation of privacy in the days of drones to me is related to the heart because it's only 1 part of a larger rubric
of a surveillance state and so what then does this guy in sky bring on top of the existing surveillance technologies that already existed already know more about it and it's not just the
government but cool drawings and and other things and so what is in the medical declined heuristic question what is it mean to be human borders and there have always worsening the have human privacy when and what I not only have a digital identity but now physical identity from the sky this is visual aspect is now incorporated into the met picture of me that's going to be the basis of decisions whether to kill me or my credit score whatever may be so I would say that 1 civilian
oversight for for data collected by drones and be a larger conversational elements what despite singing in the tutorials no with an AT and use the analogy is here I think of cyber-information you you need
trusted reliable information commissions with with an oversight role to see what's being collected in my heart computer just when when it commutes drawing but uh I think this is also there's a role for enforcement just isn't happening in the UK I think in the rest of Europe but there already laws about what's not flying drones over airports for example all but the buildings but they didn't force that this the registration system the least and follow up so at some point if if if we want to mitigate the bad effects of friends have we gotta get serious about thinking about race
people and finding them arresting them um if necessary and imprisonment set if finding them for wild and reckless or greedy producer would have to think about paparazzi and our and at the
absolute right to um to journalistic exposure and I think they're gonna have to face the fact that they're very different national attitudes to this bridge that seem to worry about being photographed they absolutely resent having to carry documentation around um uh that the the real levels of trust or distrust in the state which will not be the same in each country the cultural attitudes towards robot some some counter cultures find them very disturbing Chile Japanese for example quite like lot so you would expect rather different solutions in different countries but we need to think about this trade-off but but to to take a pessimistic view it may be part of the price of living in a high-technology 21st Century city that you give up some of those
rights to anonymity and that's just how the system has to work know whether trade I history does not which I don't know that that's the discussion we need to have a very different way of this it's this security versus privacy that's a false dichotomy is not just about security it's just about it's about it's about the future about about
technology we we 1st for thousands of years we we've lived and to saved because we have technology doesn't mean that we have to usurp or right as human beings to an existing to do with a lot of technologies not not
completely the following content is anything the let's say the following movements such as the state's going in writing this is great in
the domestic perspective on the middle part of the 1 medium the back to the union of the sets it could mainly because that's what I did in India said that client from getting killed by the I here is here's the reality on the international front in terms of how to be used outside of wars in which is it's not just the US in might previous pressing the button but we know you case helping with the finding fixed and you know that Germany has a base rate here at Ramstein that without which the drums don't plot is a relay station that enables the strikes Yemeni take them and thank you don't go flying and because of the curve of the year and were involved 5 on behalf of Iceland litigation right now against and say the courts in the public and politicians to step up and start at doing with the which is checking government power and making sure that if governments are gonna run
around launching missiles and places were not formally at war that they're being transparent accountable about it so that there is that checked so that people are mistakenly getting killed and so that quite honestly this war on terror of it
seems to be professional and then endless and starts to get somewhere which is back to a place of normality were were not running after OK
I think mood should move on to questions non-Christian had a little bit of time left
OK man the anybody who has questions please come to me or my colleague
over there and I k surfing and this lady here hello Angelina on my question is primarily topology curious for
everyone on the panel and look I'm excited I was excited about it then Peredo delivery drones everybody I love to drone photos but I thought I heard you say that that regardless of what's happening 0 stand there ethical users were murder drones and I'm really wondering what those article uses for killer drones are I I just had been racking my brain and I just don't see it what kilograms are
somewhere so um in Afghanistan on Western aircraft
all flying in a war sanctioned by the United Nations trying to drop things as precisely as possible art and drones can be more precise because they go slower and low and fast moving fighter jets um so if you regard any use of their powers ethical there is no reason why dreams can't be used as ethically as any other and armed aircraft I don't understand why you would think that that there's something special about the of and add up all the
evidence from Afghanistan seems to be the locals don't don't regards use their as very
different from Borland's all rockets is whether it's a drone old an aircraft or not to replace 20 miles away doesn't really resonate with with the people concerned with vector question is that does it hit civilians on lot 10 negative but I would say that it depends
where you are in Afghanistan I think it depends on the prevalence of agents there but there have been reports of people saying that the terms constantly sky diving and knocks out of Afghanistan as
well as Pakistan but the other thing you have going on in afghanistan right now which is not the time to go into is all the western powers technically declared war over in December 2014 in the past year we've dropped 500 demonstrates the on Afghanistan in fact around the very quickly
replacing manned aircraft in the Afghan theater because it allows us to withdraw from the war while not actually withdrawing from and I think that's a real problem again when you're looking at
accountability domestically can I mention of there's a
Pakistani man called a very brave from physics professor competitors who boy who wrote this article called our drones and there's and his point is that if you're in
Pakistani as a kind of secular liberal person you are at war with people who is sending human drama lecture with suicide pact arm and what you mean about war is is pretty much everything you need political reform you argue audible conversations but you need sometimes just to kill these people before they
can be organized this and more more people lectures and I know system where the width of a literal what would what would I think there is a Pakistani with with you but but it's like with this this is again this pre crime right that they were work saying that intends
to do something is this is equivalent to a lot of and taking up to a sample of is is being implicit absolutely engaged in in in the crime is loaded wording but it's not the same as work it's not to say that just because somebody has has this to
the other 2 away at the at the lessons and say you know what maybe i wanna live in so this is this is a problem with the idea of a desire to some sort of saying you know that this person because they taking this 1 actions were logically drawing the license also
using here things is OK case of going from marketplace and deformation field go for it to be I think that we have to process of all the address the architecture of the 1st
things going on here wine and seek a ticking time bomb snide Jessica happening at the time and now is no evidence that any of the
strikes in Pakistan were people putting on the side Aston in at at the door it's Hollywood fiction it depends on fiction it being targeted way before the point in the vast majority will be partly based on patterns of behavior we can even say they were what the intentions where the 2nd thing is when you're looking at the the link between domestic there is no debt personally suffered most from the war terror is the Pakistani population it's not the Americans it's not your it's the Pakistani population itself it also suffered from their own government policies and a whole bunch of other it we won't go into right now the
reality is when you look at you visited the academic at the University of back he tried to correlate terrorist attacks
inside Pakistan to John sites in the correlation they were experienced it was the wife of various refer to this problem it's
a disputed study OK but there is
some evidence to suggest that when they were run straight the read palliation was to go into marketplace about because you can't build you can build a drone if you're looking at this is a this is the fundamental kind of this is what you get with asymmetric warfare if I
contacted from which is what I think that more my only option as
far as something the world and I'm not the only 1st thinking that all the terrorism that's going on there OK then you it caused massive problems and
and massive loss of life but their responses to go blow themselves up in 1 OK minister then so we have a couple more questions was a very limited
and usually also get the making
so the interesting discussion I was wondering a little bit because we talked a lot about the drone strikes and less about the surveillance by drones and
am I see others is really big problem that to meet the surveillance is also every problem so I was kind of surprised to see that we are only talking about the strike part and in Germany we have a constitutional right not to be an infringement of privacy so we have the right not to be a person of interest the whole time every day when we you go about our daily business and you said before that and light is always but also sometimes unpleasant and that we have to open a new discussion about how we want privacy to look like but we have a lot of answers to this question not all of them but we have a lot of them and a lot of the answers are in our
constitution we've set the rules of hundred years ago so why don't we look
to these rules to those principles and apply them now and say no just because there's a new technology doesn't mean the government can severely all the time why don't we do that
we would like to if I had he ideation actually going to get it in I think the problem is I and I can't speak to the German context because I'm not a German later when I can say in the UK and US context as the technologies
that had the law to the Lord don't necessarily rain the technology in the way we would want to policy makers as tends to happen with technology so far behind the curve but they're also not legislating training a technology and I think that's coming I think in part of the way that coming in the court systems I think in a way that's coming is 3 things like this node and saying I think there will be legislative change and I think in some of the estimated the rules are slow in coming in part because it 1 equipped to deal with this they were designed for the new helicopter in the sky that flies
for 20 minutes once every week rather than John that's in a persistent maybe they're picking up everything for weeks on end and and I agree that every solutions will come out in terms of their national political choices that maybe there is an extremely strong
commitment to privacy in Germany which will lead to a different system of laws and regulations of how that will play out against technical realities and also economic realities because some of these technologies are actually extremely profitable and companies are not going to want to lose out by by excessive state restrictions so how that will settle down in Germany I
mean no no non-German could can say and I doubt it possible to predict even if you are a German lawyer I would say that a lot like concerns is the I did like a national
security letter in the US context in which a lot of this is being done behind the veil of of national security or the intelligence agencies and so on they play by the game and the B and the like there's a scandal like it with the NSA was acting as and it came out that 0 well they were there was there was massive data collection that is as well that they they had to do so I think it
from 1 to the intelligence services or don't play by the by the same rules as everyone else and secondly what we see in the US
now with the militarization of municipal police departments along this is done by the Department of Homeland Security grants they're basically offloading budget of military equipment the now find its way on the streets of cities across America and so weird about it
is to 1 delayed intelligence agencies operating on a different legal extradition extra legal framework and secondly under the guise of national security and secondly that the normalization of these technologies find its way into the our city streets before the time that policy makers have a chance to protect us I think every single question is going to launch a whole new debate track down here and chapter in this section today so that I think we
have to wrap it up the thank you everybody and coming thank you to our something in speaker's thing will be to realize today is that the key thing is to open debate how these conversations that difficult and and to get those red lines of what we need to to the fullest transparency is key accountability is key because we need some form of checks and power on these on these decisions are being made by people who and I feel you know they may not need to consult because it is an immediate urgent threat and it is a non these are decisions that quite and of expertise by think if we try and democratize that by having these conversations so that more people know more about it that is the 1st Eiffel
prayer um because