A Computer Museum Why and how?
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DipolmomentNeuroinformatikOffene MengeDatensatzMultiplikationsoperatorVorzeichen <Mathematik>DifferenteVollständiger VerbandViewerProgrammiergerätVIC 20InformationInteraktives FernsehenBildverstehenAutomatische HandlungsplanungLeckDesign by ContractFestplatteFlächentheorieDiagrammBesprechung/Interview
08:27
Interaktives FernsehenProzess <Informatik>Formation <Mathematik>NeuroinformatikTelekommunikationAdditionSchreib-Lese-KopfBenutzerschnittstellenverwaltungssystemMultiplikationsoperatorSystemverwaltungDifferenteInformationstechnikInformationDienst <Informatik>ProgrammierumgebungBeobachtungsstudieDiskettenlaufwerkBitVersionsverwaltungMini-DiscGanze FunktionClientPunktRoutingMathematikDatenverwaltungNP-hartes ProblemTranslation <Mathematik>UnternehmensmodellRelativitätstheorieBesprechung/Interview
16:48
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25:10
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32:24
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39:38
Lie-GruppeGebäude <Mathematik>QuaderSpieltheorieTotal <Mathematik>MeterMultiplikationVollständigkeitMultiplikationsoperatorPunktRechter WinkelVorzeichen <Mathematik>Exogene VariableQuadratzahlNeuroinformatikBitDatensichtgerätBesprechung/Interview
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NeuroinformatikAbstandArbeit <Physik>PunktHypermediaProzess <Informatik>Stochastische AbhängigkeitBitVideokonferenzGruppenoperationSchnittmengeSchnitt <Mathematik>ZahlenbereichComputerspielDatensichtgerätFlächentheorieArithmetisches MittelWeb-SeiteWhiteboardMini-DiscGamecontrollerEinsSoftwareDiskettenlaufwerkMereologieInformationsspeicherungEinfach zusammenhängender RaumGebäude <Mathematik>AggregatzustandVIC 20Virtuelle MaschineBesprechung/Interview
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Offene MengeMereologieMetropolitan area networkMultiplikationsoperatorComputeranimationBesprechung/Interview
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Virtuelle MaschineNeuroinformatikNotebook-ComputerNormalvektorMultiplikationsoperatorBesprechung/Interview
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ModemVerschlingungVersionsverwaltungPunktNewsletterNeuroinformatikTotal <Mathematik>EreignishorizontNummernsystemFrequenzGüte der AnpassungMultiplikationsoperatorProjektive EbeneVollständiger VerbandMereologieWeb SiteNotebook-ComputerBesprechung/Interview
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NewsletterPunktPay-TVNeuroinformatikVollständigkeitMomentenproblemWeb SiteHypermediaBesprechung/Interview
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StrömungsrichtungMessage-PassingCD-ROMDiskettenlaufwerkMereologieLesen <Datenverarbeitung>SoftwareBesprechung/Interview
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Office-PaketElektronische PublikationMereologieBesprechung/Interview
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NeuroinformatikMereologieGruppenoperationVollständiger VerbandBesprechung/Interview
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ZweiNeuroinformatikVirtuelle MaschineBildschirmfensterNichtlinearer OperatorBesprechung/Interview
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Ordnung <Mathematik>Virtuelle MaschineVIC 20MultiplikationsoperatorNeuroinformatikBitLeistung <Physik>Mathematische LogikKlon <Mathematik>AusnahmebehandlungSpannungsmessung <Mechanik>Besprechung/Interview
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NeuroinformatikSpielkonsoleTelekommunikationPunktGanze FunktionDigitale PhotographieVirtuelle MaschineVIC 20DatensichtgerätMultiplikationsoperatorBitGebäude <Mathematik>Besprechung/Interview
01:11:13
YouTubeTouchscreenMailing-ListeVideokonferenzMaßerweiterungBesprechung/Interview
01:12:16
Projektive EbeneNeuroinformatikWhiteboardBesprechung/Interview
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AssoziativgesetzNeuroinformatikVIC 20PunktHauptplatineSicherungskopieQuaderArithmetisches MittelSchlussregelDatenmodellInformationsspeicherungBesprechung/Interview
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DifferenteVersionsverwaltungDatenmodellHauptplatineBinärdatenZahlenbereichVIC 20Güte der AnpassungBesprechung/Interview
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NeuroinformatikHardwareVIC 20PunktBesprechung/Interview
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NeuroinformatikEinsIBM PCSchlussregelTypentheorieDatenmodellHauptplatineSchnittmengeBitWhiteboardKlon <Mathematik>BefehlsprozessorVIC 20Bell and HowellBesprechung/Interview
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NeuroinformatikGeradeQuaderFlüssiger ZustandBitBesprechung/Interview
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NeuroinformatikCoxeter-GruppeCAN-BusBesprechung/InterviewComputeranimation
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Computeranimation
Transkript: Englisch(automatisch erzeugt)
00:06
Hi, my name is Bart and I'm the founder and the CEO of the Home Computer Museum in the Netherlands I've been honored to speak to you via this medium now Unfortunately, I was really hoping that I could be there and that we can all be together in this
00:26
For Fosdam, but yeah, it didn't work out I've been asked to to tell about the Home Computer Museum and why it existed and How it became to exist and what are we doing now?
00:42
As you may know Today as of recording and the Netherlands is still in lockdown That means we don't have anybody in this museum at the moment, which is a shame but Normally, we have plenty of people here. We have over 500 computers Which can be used hands-on
01:02
And that's one of the first things I started out with with the idea The reason why I'm opening and why I decided to open a museum and the idea came to me back in 2016 is Because I I knew that there was a lot of history. I mean all of you viewers right now
01:22
You all have a first computer It could be a Commodore 64 or maybe a PDP or a deck or maybe an Atari or an Amiga You do have a first computer and that computer really made you It made you you are now one of the programmers you want of doing something in the computer else. You won't be here in this
01:45
in this virtual meeting right now So you have something with computers so you started out in the computer and this computer that you first saw and the first time this really made you today who you are and Back in 2016. I couldn't find a place where this was
02:04
Done correctly in my opinion. I was visiting a few museums one of them in Cambridge and Yeah, the the thing in Cambridge It didn't feel like you could touch it. I mean you you could see the computers
02:21
I mean we have computers over here right now as well You could see them but you couldn't touch them. I didn't feel like you could touch them They were off most of the time when I visited at least and Also a big thing. I was really annoyed by The fact that there was misinformation. I saw this
02:42
Tandy TRS-80 and it says it's dated from 1979 and as a collector, which what I was at the time I Knew this is 1977 so it's a two-year difference and they also had an Amiga 500 and the little sign said Amiga 1200
03:03
Which is completely bullshit because it doesn't it's not true and I felt really bad because I Trust museums if I go to a museum, I I think I assume They know what they are talking about what they want to show me and their information is correct
03:22
but this information was completely incorrect and Even I I am a collector. I would say I am a collector, but I'm not a collector anymore I'll come to you in why that is in a few minutes, but So my vision was that this information should be correct and of course
03:44
I mentioned the misinformation to the people over there and I assume they have now fixed it But yeah, that was one of the reasons What occurred to me? Why is there no such thing as a museum? I mean everybody knows about the Rembrandt or a Van Gogh
04:02
everybody knows about it because it's on a museum and people actually research it and You know, there's this particular painting or this particular artwork did something in the future and that's what With computers, it's exactly the same. It's exactly the same it
04:21
there's also the History and this this particular computer any computer has done something in the history It's it made even came to a mobile phone. I mean acorn computers came to mobile phones The Apple computer the first Apple computer the first Commodore Kim
04:43
They all meant something and if it's not for the business or for the complete IT world It's also for people because yeah, as I said you started with a computer as well. So Even you have a piece of history with a particular computer and that was something I was really missing in
05:04
In the museums, I visited back then lack of information incorrect information so yeah, I went home in the Netherlands and Yeah, I was doing my collecting I had about 35 computers or so
05:24
And I was collecting all these old stories as well I love the stories of the people who gave the computers to me why they bought this computer in the past Why what did they do with it? What made it that they are today? What did this computer do what they are doing today?
05:42
This was quite fascinating for me and Then my wife my lovely wife was still married with me, by the way she said to me you have a garage full of old computers Yeah, 35. It's not that much but okay. Yes
06:03
Your garage full of computers you go to every gathering every meeting you are online very active in the communities Why don't you do anything with that? Yeah, but I think I mean come on this like 35 computers it's not even
06:22
Scratching the surface of the history of computers, but then I came to an idea in the art world and in the museum world in general It's quite normal that you lend people or borrow stuff or borrow stuff from other museums or private persons
06:41
Why not with computers? It's the same. It has a history You can register it you can you know, put a name on it and you can do anything with it So that's when I Came to in contact with a few collectors and I told this idea, okay Let's say I'm going to open a museum
07:03
And this will be an interactive museum Computers have to be on and because in my opinion if your computer is off all the time It will eventually die Capacitors will will leak batteries Hard disks will block there's so much going on for why a computer should be turned on
07:27
And I said that to them I'm going to maintain them and These people were enthusiastic about it. They were like, this is a great idea because it's now in my attic It's in my living room. It's in a room
07:42
and Oddly enough most of them didn't have a wife but If They had a wife then the wives were very pleased when I came along because I basically took their room back I gave them their room back Instead of me buying all the computers and trying to get all these computers. I would gently lend them
08:04
borrow them and Put them in a museum and make a contract of that and that's how we started. That's how the idea started And Then something else because Running a museum is a terrible business plan
08:23
No matter what you think of it a big museum is a bad business plan Why? Because it's you have to rely on the governance You have to rely on external money money you get from the city money you get from the
08:43
national government and money you get from subsidies for Different kind of fundings and that's a bad business model. I mean if you work in a company a normal company Which makes profits or whatever? It's a bad idea to have one customer and there are companies doing that
09:03
But it's it's a high risk to have only one customer. You need more customers. So more people bringing money in and Why not with museums? Why is a museum immediately? Let's hold up hands and let's get let's try to ask money from everybody and assume that you get something
09:24
No, I was not into that. I'm absolutely not. I Used to be I still I run a few companies Mostly websites, but also in the music industry. I was in bands a lot. So therefore I know kind of how a business works
09:42
So this was a bad bad idea, so okay, I need to do something else Because I can't rely on external money and I can't rely on people coming in Asking for entrance So what can we do?
10:00
Well since my primary goal was to have an interactive computer museum Computers should be able to work or should work in the museum people can touch it people can play with it This means I have to be able to repair these computers and the team I was envisioning and
10:20
so Why not use this knowledge to make money and that's what I did I started the repair as an addition to the museum And making simple prices and it doesn't matter if you have an old computer or a new computer
10:41
Bring it in Simple prices and from there no cure no pay. So if you can't fix it, just give it back without pay So that's that's the the goal that was one of the ideas I had and also Read out old media
11:01
Because yeah, you all know the floppy disks, right? I have a few over here. I'll grab it Quickly like this is this is not Street Fighter by the way, but this is a floppy disk Then currently you can't read them there's no computer in the entire world
11:23
Well, there's no computer new computer in the entire world who can read these things and you can't buy an external USB version of this one on a five and a quarter inch But there's a lot of data on there So there are a lot of people putting data on these discs back in the 80s and 70s
11:41
so why not provide a service for them provide them to read out these data and Give it back to them on USB stick or on Dropbox or whatever online medium you have So that was also one of the services. I was going to provide next to you know, having entrance fee
12:00
Doing tours guided tours and all this kind of stuff So that was basically the business idea I had But there was still one thing left and I couldn't do this alone and I never intended to do this alone, so
12:20
Yeah, let's let's I needed people and how to get people One of the things is a little bit of my history My sister has autism and it was discovered on a very relatively late age She was 18 and then was discovered that she has autism
12:43
This means I lived for nearly 20 years with somebody with autism without having a label without people saying you have autism just it was a Hard learning child that was the most thing I heard
13:02
But she has full-blown autism so When it was discovered it was really okay I lived and I know how people with autism think or what they can do how they how they Work with how their mind goes
13:20
And at that point I had a girlfriend as he was studying psychology And I Figured that was a nice nice idea to go that route and I was studying information technical information I was just ICT I'm studying ICT and I
13:45
Think okay, I'll finish this education and then I'll go to the psychology education. However, I I Was already reading her books every book she took home every lessons she had I was listening to her
14:03
I was learning in this way To get a head start when I started the education the psychology education. I would have a head start that was smart thinking But I saw my girlfriend change and it changed a lot in such a way that
14:22
Eventually, even the relation ended We were still in good contact. So it's not that we were having fight. So but we See she quit the education and she finally ended up being a client of psychology
14:42
Because the first few years of the education of the of the study You get your own problems you have to go your to your own problems and fix yourself and She never came over that so she never was able to fix herself and Therefore she left school and eventually even went
15:03
to a closed environment to heal and I think she's good doing right now. I don't we don't have contact anymore, but I think she's doing she's doing fine now But for me there was a reason not to do this anymore. So I finished my education
15:20
I finished my my study on information technology and I went to work as a system administrator at my work I saw a lot of people having autism or at least I was thinking they have autism and somebody someone they
15:41
some of them knew some of them didn't knew but I also saw My bosses at the time Weren't really the best people were good people, but they didn't know how to cope with people with autism and I saw these people with autism. I saw them losing their jobs or you know calling in sick because
16:05
Something happened and and they couldn't deal with it and Yeah, it was a shame because it wasn't necessary It was only a matter of the way of communication
16:21
So I was kind of in between I started to be the middleman As I always say I speak fluently autism So I started to be the middleman. I started to be the translator to the between the boss and or the manager and the people with autism and I
16:42
translated it in such a way that the people with autism understand and knew what they had to do and If they have any questions or after if they were finished They came back to me and I was saying okay, they're finished now to the bosses and managers So I was in the kind of middle between Despite I was still the system and network administrator in most cases
17:06
But I saw this this this thing happening and That's was one of the reasons I started to help these people because I feel I felt they need help And since I had this idea of this this computer museum
17:23
Why not help people as well? So I Just decided okay, I'm going to help people with autism Right now it's it's not only people with autism, but with a distance to the labor market And in the Netherlands we have a system
17:43
That's You get money if you help people with autism or people with distance to the labor market if you help them You as a company get money from it from the government from the care part of the government and It's daytime activities its official call and the official name and
18:07
So this was another way of making money Instead of relying on the entrance fee and relying on you know external money. This was a way to make money. I Have people helping me and I can help people
18:22
It's a win-win situation so In general, this is the business idea. This is the entire business plan laid out for you And I wrote it down And There's a whole history of why I decided to write it down, but it's
18:40
You can ask me in the Q&A later, but that's another roughly one and a half hour of talking And it has to do with singing lessons go well But So I started I wrote down I wrote down the idea and
19:00
Of a computer machine. Okay, I want to play the computer machine Interactive computer museum. I'm going to borrow stuff computers from external people from Companies or private persons to show in the museum because I only had a few
19:20
Helping people with autism at the time and providing services like repair service and like The the data discovery data recovery of old media we call it now digital heritage So I wrote down this plan I literally wrote it down a little bit on a paper just you know
19:44
it started out with a few words and It started to flow in and a full-fledged business plan came out of that and I was like, okay I have created the business plan and I Showed it to friends of mine who had companies and friends who have find our financial advisors. Is this a viable?
20:05
company and The person who I trusted most He is a Financial advisor for banks International and so I trust him when it comes to money and he said to me
20:22
It's going to be tough, but it's not impossible And that's all I knew and that's all I needed to know so With this business plan piece of paper. I went to the city and I said to them I have business plan now What I have no idea. I never run a museum. I have no idea what to do
20:44
and I remember It was 2016 November 2016 And two ladies of the city of Helmand came to my house And listening to me we're talking about two ladies in the 40s
21:02
The first thing they said to me after obviously saying their names was we don't have anything with computers so Yeah, there we have we needed to I needed to convince people who didn't have anything with computers Of course I put in my garage I put the most beautiful computers
21:24
I put there. I turned them on and I were like, okay. This is this is the idea and After some talking and they were like, yeah, it's going to be tough very hard I went to the garage with them and I showed them what I meant what what this was and it was Commodore 64 like this
21:42
one and I think attendee or so and I told them the stories I knew at that time about these computers and about the people who had these computers and They were completely amazed and from my garage there's a small walk my garage to my house And they all started. Okay, maybe you can have this this particular building or this building you can put in
22:04
So they in from we don't have anything with computers. They were like, this is a great business idea. We should have this Unfortunately They were talking a lot but The city didn't have any buildings at that point
22:22
They had a small plan That's a few museums should be combined in one big building and they were like, okay You should you know be with them that that that sounds like a good good idea having a computer museum and there was a supermarket museum and
22:42
Museum of pianos and church organs and anyway, that kind of stuff and They they wanted having these three museums I want they wants to have them in one building and one entrance and then a big Welcome for and you can buy entrance for all museums or one meeting
23:02
So it was a good plan sounded like like a decent way to go. So as I as it goes with With cities a lot of talking a lot of talking we have to do meetings. We have to do all this kind of Things and talking about the ideas and
23:22
So and nothing happens really nothing happens only the ideas and okay we should do this and we should arrange a key and we should go there and It just didn't work out by the end of 2017 I believe in October 2017 the one of the ladies who was first at my at my house
23:46
She said to me yeah, I think it's better that you already start because you're the only one who doesn't have a museum yet and For reference this at this point, I think nine companies were interested into going inside that building. So
24:03
The feeling I had was okay. I'm going to have like hundred square meters for my museum instead of the 1500 I requested So it was it was already Going the wrong direction, but anyway, so she said to me I should start already you should start already
24:22
In in hindsight they said to me you should already start promoting yourself on the Internet But I already done that I done that at the point. I had the business plan I started to talk to people I started to post it on Facebook. I started to post it on Twitter
24:40
And so I already done that I had already a website they had a name I had everything The yes, he meant that however, I interpreted as Users rent the building so I did I rented the building And I think my video editor is now putting all some more some great shots of the old location over
25:08
And I went to this this Realtor and I said to him listen I have this idea. I think I can help the city I can help You know promote the building a little bit
25:21
And I only need it for two years because at that point I was still thinking way in about two years One and a half to two years. I'll be in this building with the other museums So Yeah, we discussed a Decent price which I could afford I didn't say I'm going I want this for free
25:42
Sure, I want it for free, but it was not my primary goal. I said I want to pay but I can't pay that much So they started out with three months for free and then I paid like I believe thousand or so a month for rent and And
26:01
So yeah, we went into the building and I mean if you know how an empty building looks This was empty completely. It didn't have electricity Well, it used to have electricity, but there was some some Sun tanning studio in there
26:20
and they went bankrupt and they cut everything copper away and What was left was, you know, we had wires with power on it and connected in a strange way to each other So basically every time I try to turn on some electricity it will blew up immediately like oh my god So we have to recreate the entire electricity network
26:46
Again, I didn't have any money at all. I was still a simple system network engineer Nothing's that spectacular. I was good, but not that spectacular
27:00
So I I was just having some some I found what I did do a Kickstarter at that time As soon as I knew I had this building I do I did a Kickstarter and this Kickstarter Failed
27:21
miserably, I Needed 35,000 euro and I think I ended up with 3,000 or so as so it failed and Kickstarter never paid me So the next thing I did was to go on GoFundMe. So I started on GoFundMe from that point Which only gave me also 3,000 ish
27:44
in the end, but the benefit of GoFundMe compared to Kickstarter is that they will actually pay you Even if you don't meet your goal so that's However, there was one sponsor who saw me on Kickstarter and
28:01
He decided okay. I think this in this prison interesting project So he basically gave me all that money from Kickstarter that I requested. Well, not entirely he gave me We made an agreement that he internally it would give me 25,000 euro But it started with 15,000 I think yeah 15,000
28:23
and the beginning and the rest of the 10,000 I would get every month and The city of Helmand gave me 10,000 in total 3,000 of yearly Subsidy and 7,000 for startup and I put some own money in my own savings. I put in I
28:45
quit my job and We started to build Literally we started to build because we didn't have any money I did pull some I talked with a lot of people and we got some free stuff and
29:01
They were like they were nice most people were very nice However, there was still a big wall in the middle of the museum and As soon as I got a key, which was in December Yeah, I think December 2017 I got the key
29:22
Yeah end of December, yeah, I got the key And for the first time I got there and I was finally having some decent light And I found out that behind the wall. There was no floor. There was literally no floor in there There was nobody ever rented that piece of building that part of the building
29:41
And it was no floor so Now what we have a wall in the middle and we have a huge space in the back without any floor Without any electricity without any cabling. There's nothing there Okay, that's problem so I called up the The owner of the building and said listen you you rent this to me, which is fine
30:03
but I can't do anything with it because The biggest part of the building is is still not Not having a floor or at all and Yeah, we're going to fix that. We're going to fix that. Yeah good that you say because we forgot and okay fine
30:21
So they're going to tear them down the wall and put a new floor in perfect So I figured okay, this will take well Let's say a few weeks two or three two weeks or so And then we have to build this museum and a few other weeks. So yes March the 17th, that will be the day. We are going to open March 17 2018
30:47
but Yeah didn't work The building the owner of the building was asking to a lot of companies to give prices and
31:02
Eventually, they found the the person who they asked first is the person who eventually Put down the wall and put a floor in there and it was exactly ten days before opening Yes, ten days
31:21
So ten days before opening they put in a concrete floor and I don't know how many people I know a little bit about concrete Well, I didn't but I started to know it apparently has to dry And so I asked and yeah, I don't know how much you know about concrete I didn't know anything about it, but
31:45
Apparently it has to dry So I asked the the people who put in the concrete floor Okay, how many days I can actually walk on it and they were like, yeah after two days, but you have to be really careful
32:01
okay, I asked the Landlord about it and she said now you have to wait six weeks Yeah, I'm not going to do that not six weeks so two days it is So indeed after two days we started to build the museum That means put in a full electric network
32:22
Put in all the computers put in all the walls put in the entire roots put in old signs Clean it clean it clean it and clean it and also some cleaning We worked that day with the volunteers we had at that point
32:43
We're still in the museum at this stage And we worked for seven days straight starting at 8 in the morning and going home between 1 30 and Usually 2 In the night we went home and the next day exactly the same we did
33:05
Worked very very hard with about seven or eight people in total There's I'll show you some footage there will be some footage over this where you can actually see what we did at that point
33:22
Um Yeah, so that's that's how we open puts and even one week before the the biggest sponsor came to me And we're like you're not going to make this I was like wanna bet And surely enough we were open on March 17
33:41
2018 I Can tell you I had pain. I had so much pain in so many muscles I didn't even know there were muscles at that point in my body, but I had so much pain Was we made it we made it we were open and Because I was already doing a lot of an internet I was a lot of promoting and a lot of you know
34:02
I have this Facebook page and on the internet and I was in several Facebook groups And all my friends knew about it. So people started to give me computers and by the time we were open I Had my garage was still Relatively full. I had a storage unit externally which was completely full and
34:25
we had I think 30 ish computers in a museum active at the point and So that's how we opened and Then the first day it was great. We had a great fun. We had a great day a lot of people coming in
34:42
all the people who did a girlfriend me and my friends and all the sponsors and all these people who helped me and Helped us at that point because we were having a board of five people People who joined me on several occasions
35:01
We weren't particularly friends before that or I didn't even know them But Especially one of them this I consider him the co-founder His name is Patrick. He's now our art director and He's responsible for our logo like we have over here
35:20
The logo and he's responsible for all the Scenes we created over here and every the host the whole styling of everything we do in the museum He loves the the 70s 80s and 90s so we can work together I put I usually have this, you know, I have this computer and I say to him Okay I have this computer and it's from 1982 in this case and I put it on there
35:45
I want it there and he will make sure the correct table the correct Background is there the correct wallpaper in some cases the correct chair. I'm sitting on now He makes sure this this whole scene looks correct looks time correct. And actually this one works
36:02
Normally but it's now off because I don't want to have all our younger viewers going like So it's off now, but if you go if you ever come into the Netherlands You'll see it working But yeah, we have at that point when I opened I think I had 400 computers in total and
36:27
Yeah, that's how we started and in first at first we were just yeah, I was there for well 24 hours is Not my is Little bit ridiculous, but I was there every single day
36:42
Living on my savings, I didn't have any job anymore. I'll quit my job And it didn't go well at all People didn't want to come or didn't come I don't know why it's probably because it's a known It's a new museum and it's an interactive museum. So that's hot
37:05
and And we didn't have any people Which will get paid for it We there was a company Nearby who repaired computers, so I didn't want to be their competitor So I only repaired the old computers, which apparently is not a big market
37:26
So, yeah, it was not going well and by the end of 2018 Nine months after we started we were on the verge of bankruptcy We were behind on our rent we
37:42
Were I didn't pay myself at all. I nobody was paid So and and there were no people in there was no money coming in from Nowhere, nobody was giving us money So we were really struggling to stay alive
38:03
And the only reason we were open is because we kept open and we were open in everything We did we were open to the people who we still owe money to like the kind of the owner of the building And we were open. Okay, this is going to happen. This is these are our plans and
38:23
Everything looked so well and so great, but it didn't work out yet But Then the company that was repairing computers, which is nearby Went bankrupt before us
38:40
So I went there On the day we heard they are bankrupt Well, they were not bankrupt at that point. They had to close and they had to move to a city about an But So I when I as soon as I heard I went there immediately and I said
39:04
they heard that morning that they have to move so this was ridiculous and So it was like, okay, and it's this shape, but can I put a sign over here? can I put you know a sign on the door or so and They said and no you can't there's no way you can do that
39:22
But I'll be gone at 1130 and I don't care what happens after All right So at 1145 there were two Papers pieces of paper on their door if you're looking for computer repairs go to the left first street to go to the right and left first you to the right because that's where we were and
39:44
We took over all their repairs And that saved us we were really saved by the fact that another company went bankrupt and The month after we got our first people first person in Who we got paid for and he's still working for us, thankfully
40:04
and from there we started to grow and It's it started to grow and it's I'm already yeah, I already got to sing a sign. That's that's that I have 10 minutes left apparently but
40:22
There's so much Enough time for one hour Yeah We got We were starting to be started to grow however, we knew at that point that by the end of that year that was
40:41
2019 by the end of 2019 we have to remove we have to move away from the building because we only rented it only for Two years and given our way of paying and there was no chance that we were being extended in that point also, the city decided not to continue with the
41:02
the building for with multiple museums in there or at least Not with us because they felt and these are exactly their worse We don't have anything to do with the city So the home computer museum doesn't have anything to do with the city of Helmond's
41:21
So that's why they put didn't put us in the museum So We were a little bit looking around. Okay, we have to move probably so where do we go? And then Out of nowhere somebody
41:40
Yes They wanted to create an IT company in the city of Helmond specialized to Get people with autism to work for them And So I Heard that I was like, okay. I'm going to call them because that's exactly what we do
42:02
So I want to collaborate with them So I call them up and we I invite them over to the museum. I Told them what we do and I was like, okay, you can be in our building as well But this guy was like no, this is the building is terrible
42:21
So We talked a little bit about other buildings and I said across the street as as a big building But it's impossible to pay because there's no way I can even consider that pay so Yeah, he went away and the next morning he jumped in he literally jumped in our building and he says I'm going to rent
42:44
The other side of the street and I'm going to take you with us a Long story short That didn't work this company Didn't return the concept at some point. They we did show the building and we did see the building
43:03
But there was no way They didn't respond at all and they were Forgetting their appointments with us So, yeah, I gave up on them However, we were still in the same situation. I need to go to another building
43:23
So I did what I do best is just simply call and ask and I did I called the owner of That building which is this building. I called him I said this is the situation this is the current situation and
43:40
can you help us and He was like, yeah you you get a lot of subsidy, right? So no, you're not going like no, I don't get any subsidy so this is this is what we have and we make our own money and Given our social networks our social skills
44:03
They okay, this is interesting so he visited us and we started to talk and Eventually he Yeah Yeah, he decided that he was going to try it with us and So he gave us the benefit of the doubt and we were able to rent this
44:25
enormous building of thousand ninety square meters And it is it's complete. It's a beautiful building We immediately removed all the old tube lighting and we put LEDs in there and we did a lot of work
44:40
and we opened on February the 2nd 2020 and We enjoyed here for one and a half months because then Corona hit us And we were closed and up until today we are closed
45:02
Well, we were open a few times in between but all in all we were closed in At least one year in total we were closed now since early 2020 and it's ridiculous and Despite that we managed to
45:21
Survive we managed to be here and we've been stronger than ever in 2020 we got the biggest collection of box PPC games in Which is still on display right here We got the biggest collection of CDI in We became one of the most important points for digital heritage in the Netherlands
45:45
We collaborate with the National Library. We collaborate with the Sound and Vision Institute we collaborate with international museums with the American Museum the Computer History Museum
46:03
With museums in Russia with museum in Spain with museums in Everywhere in the world we collaborate with them and people are jealous of what we do because we managed to survive without subsidy and
46:21
Yeah, I'm really trying to Making everything shorter now because I'm about at the end of the time because we still have a Q&A left But in 2020 we grew from 2020 and 2021 we grew out to be the most
46:41
Having the most internet followers of all the museums computer museums in the world on Instagram by simply doing Putting a picture on every day. We are still putting pictures on every day We are open and honest in what we do we currently have
47:03
Well over 500 computers on display in the home museum. We have very unique pieces. We have to We have an Amiga which was Used for the movie Titanic We have an Amiga for NASA we have the only working a status
47:23
Computer which is one of the first cut computers We have so much different things here, we do a lot of research and We are not The the current team is 40 people We have 40 people walking around here 40 volunteers and most of them have a distance to the labor market
47:46
Actually, only two or three are not having a distance to the labor market even and from that group The big part of that one is autism and we actually help these people we make them
48:02
Return to work we try to find and we are successful. We are actually successful in that We have Say We We Gave people's life back because they because of the autism they
48:25
Didn't have any job anymore or fell out of work and We're completely depressed and everything and we got them back. We by simply Treating them the correct way by treating them nice and by providing this enormous
48:44
Building and an enormous collection and doing something that really changes the world and Yeah, I'm already talking for for a little over an hour now and I think I covered most of the things I want to say
49:05
As I'm all I'm always when I start talking I can easily talk for three hours straight So and there's no not enough time for you. So what I'm going to do is I'll be online now After this this video I'll be online For Q&A and I will
49:21
Do a little bit more in depth of what we do More in the museum at this point because it's so amazingly big what we do It's not only keeping the history alive. It's it's not keeping the Commodores and amigas and Atari's and Sinclair
49:40
Alive we also do research we find stuff in the in the in the past we can make connections between brands We know Why Commodore Eventually went bankrupt We know why the the Dutch
50:01
Payment how it became that Dutch banks could do payment via a telephone Because we knew the we found out who the company is responsible for that and they made computers We have the computer. That's the a state is as I said only two hundred of them are made and
50:21
We have the only working one in the entire world and not because there was documentation. No, no We simply I try okay. Let's see how it blows up But now it works and We Do digital heritage we be discovering documents from media zip discs jazz discs
50:46
5.25 inch floppy disk 18 floppy disks. We do it. We actually write The history we are the ones that changed the Wikipedia page because we feel that something is wrong over there We found out that something is wrong over there
51:02
And that's only still scratching the surface of what we do That's even the worst It's we have I believe it now has few numbers to give you an idea We have a set I think five hundred and twelve computers at this point in the museum hands-on
51:24
we have About two thousand ish computers in storage We have four hundred four four thousand Documents so books manuals technical documentation. That's four thousand
51:43
3,000 original software titles And we have a high electricity bill it's also a question I got a lot so I can already yes Our electricity bill is a lot. Yeah And We are still existing and we build a base
52:03
With this museum that it's completely independent. It's independent for me Even I can die tomorrow and this machine will continue to exist Because that's what I feel is important that this history is Kept and it's not relying on anything external which we can't control
52:23
so we have 40 volunteers we have six board members at this point and We are looking to a very bright future with the home computer of museum and To make sure the history is not lost Looking forward to all your questions
52:43
I'm an open book. So ask me ask away and I hope to see you at some point in the home computer mean Bye Oh
53:12
Hey, hi Bart, all right well, we already met an hour ago, but So what a story
53:20
Thanks. Thanks so much for this story I think many people on the chat loved the way you you talked about this and how it started and everything Thanks a lot. I think we're all crying man Success story, it's really really a success story So I there were many questions on the chat, especially from the half the second part
53:45
So I think the biggest one and biggest cry out was are you open now? So I think you already said it but are you open today? Yes, actually we are open today as well. We were the lockdown lasted for museums at least until last
54:04
One week ago So we were we are open now for one and a half week or so and Things are looking well It looks like that this time. We'll actually stay open for and we are not closing again in the future
54:22
Because we can't do it anymore we were locked down for four five times now and it's it's it's really not fun We locked out. So, you know, what did you do during the lockdown? I mean all this time Repairing machines. Yeah A lot now well, that's that's also fun of the business what we do is
54:45
We do also we offer repairs we offer because we knew that's what saved you yeah, and and offering repairs saved us in the beginning and it saved us during the first lockdown and Actually in the last lockdown we had which started in December was official lockdown
55:06
And we also started to repair and this time we were repaired laptops for schools So as you can imagine, it was a company that rented out laptops to
55:21
To schools to to high schools And as you can imagine those laptops are usually not Used in the way and normal people would use a laptop for so, you know Throwing them and water over and they had a huge backlog of repairing these computers and
55:41
We stepped in and we started to repair between 40 and 70 computers a week We didn't have to diagnose them thankfully so we get a computer we get the parts that were broken and the only thing we had to do was you know, Put them together and that gave us money for a laptop and that's how we saved
56:02
In December and we basically started this year with a fresh fresh goods and financial start Because that's something I didn't do in the in the in the talk yet But we were at a very bad place last well not last month
56:23
by the end of November We were practically bankrupt at that point It was terrible and It was because the Netherlands again all omicron version came up and
56:40
People the Dutch government locked down the restaurants again and Everything has to close at five that was the first thing that said that happened and we were immediately affected by that because people didn't dare to come anymore that's that's Happens all the time as soon as something happens with with the corona
57:01
Immediately we noticed that and we don't even have to watch the news that it's it's that obvious that it happens and We had a few events planned at the time and they were cancelled And in the same time we got a few unexpected bills
57:20
And so it expected that the bills we had were like three and a half thousand euro in total and the expected Events we would do were six and a half thousand euros worth of money and they were cancelled So we lost basically six and a half thousand euro and we also lost three and a half
57:40
so we ended up with only having a thousand euro on our Bank account and we had to pay the rent at the point. So yeah, that's technically bankrupt But Yeah, we got Oddly enough we got somebody in who is a business analyst and
58:03
Because we were on a big website there was an interview a few days before a few weeks before that and he called us and he analyzed us and He He did a meeting with me and he said I want to have I want to make a business proposal to you
58:23
I was like sure come on come over and he said you are such a strange company. It's like Why what what? He said you are doing so much and it's incredible. It's in inhumane what you're doing It's it's really it's out of this world the the project you're starting the the things you you
58:45
Set up for next year for them for the coming period It's ridiculous. He said if if Corona wasn't here you be one of the biggest museums in the world So I said yeah great but it's not happening because there's Corona now
59:03
Yeah, so he came came up with an idea for for a simple sponsor scheme we call it friends of the museum It's 250 euro a year for any company Who become can become friends of the museum? So any company starting from 250?
59:22
And there's no company in the entire Netherlands and even outside that that Can that's been able to miss 250 euro a year? it's but for us it's a lot of money and So he basically got that idea and we put it out on a newsletter
59:44
with this idea and Also this business analyst because he was so certain of What we are doing? He decided to pay our rent without Anything back. He said
01:00:00
I can't let this die because you're so on the edge of becoming so big, I can't let this die. So I'll pay you for this month, I'll pay you rent. If you need it for next month, I'll be able to pay it as well, but you must remain open. And so that's the first thing that's gonna save.
01:00:20
Was he someone who loved old computers or just he loved your story? Yes, both. Both. Both. So we got this idea and we put this out on the newsletter. We put it on our LinkedIn accounts, on our social media. And then it was picked up by a big website in the Netherlands, a big computer websites
01:00:42
in the Netherlands. And from that moment on, it was crazy. Donations came in, a lot of people buying year subscription and by the end of the year, we were completely out of financial problems, completely.
01:01:02
And we turn around, by the beginning of December, we had a turnover of the museum, of the company, of minus 13,000 euro. That was the turnover. And by the end of December, we were having a profit of 10,000 euro.
01:01:23
So it's crazy what happens. And our bank account was near 30,000 euro having on our bank account. And it's crazy, it's just what happened in four weeks. So we were from the edge of bankruptcy,
01:01:41
we become, well, financial, as successful as we've never been at this point. And it's crazy. So yeah, and we started this year, so quite relaxing for the time being. And yeah, we're home. With a lot of friends, a lot of company friends.
01:02:01
Yeah, and we have a lot of friends. And do you have an example of, I mean, 250 is the minimum, but who pays the most or not who, but how much? Currently the most is 5,000 a year. Wow, yeah, that's awesome. That's a company, just a company from the Netherlands. But we also have companies,
01:02:23
the company Cooler Master, MSE, and Intel responded to that. And by the end of last year, we got a message from the National Institute
01:02:42
of Sound and Vision in the Netherlands. We are part of a network called Network Digital Heritage. That's a network of companies that are able to read old media, think of floppy disks, but also CyQuest and CD-ROMs.
01:03:03
But we are the only one who can actually take the data off something and convert that data. I've heard that there are companies who do that too, which are very expensive. Do you have those also? Do you have those in your country?
01:03:20
Yes, that's what we do. You're the only one, so. Yeah, yeah, there are a few that do that. The National Library is doing that. The Institute of South Division is doing that. But we go one step further because if you have data,
01:03:40
and one of the most famous examples I'm using is WordPerfect, because if you have a WordPerfect 5.1, if you created a file back in the days with WordPerfect 5.1, you can still open that with Office 365, that's no problem. But the layout is gone. There's no layout, there's only text.
01:04:04
And we, because we have the original WordPerfect running, but we also have Office 97. And Office 97 can still import those files correctly. And so we import them using Office 97, then convert them to a newer Office, et cetera, et cetera,
01:04:22
so the data is returned fully. Is this something that will take part of your income then? Or to what extent? Because you have the repair, you have the data recovery, and you have the museum. So is that one third each, or? Yeah, roughly. Okay, roughly, okay, that's awesome.
01:04:40
That's what we hope. But yeah, museum, obviously, the last two years, we never have decent income from that. But the idea is we have, I call them pillars of the museum. We have three pillars of the museum. The first one is being the museum, and everything connected to the collection. Meaning, so we have entrance.
01:05:03
I saw a question about, do we do something for schools? And the answer is yes. We do tours for schools, guided tours. Next week, actually, I have a meeting with somebody specialized in how children respond to computers and to museum stuff,
01:05:21
and we see how we can improve on that part. We do tours for businesses. We do tours for groups. We base everything connected to the collection we have. I saw a question also on virtual tours.
01:05:41
Do you do virtual tours? Yeah, we did that in lockdown. I think the second lockdown or so, or the first, I'm not sure anymore. We did a virtual tour, but yeah, my problem is I talk a lot. My tour took six hours,
01:06:02
and so I stopped doing that because of that reason. Well, you should charge the hour. It's nice. Yeah, if you charge the hour, but we didn't. Maybe there's a question which has been upvoted a lot. How old must the machine be to be considered historic?
01:06:23
And did you take it in? Now for us, our computers we have, the newest computer we use in the museum is from 2008, and the reason why is because those computers can still run Windows Vista,
01:06:43
and that's where our end point is, Windows Vista. The simple reason is because you can still, in secondhand markets, there are still a lot of computers with Windows 7. So yeah, the Windows, and the people now in the museum
01:07:01
still have Windows 7 as a new operating system, and Windows Vista is already considered old. So that's why we have everything before 2008, we consider ready for the museum. People still bring new, try to bring you new machines for repair. So, but they don't stay in your museum.
01:07:24
So everything that's after 2008 goes back in working order. Yeah, but even if people bring in, I mean, a Commodore 64 or so for repair, we'll repair them. Okay, so next time when I come to visit you, I'll have a few machines in my luggage.
01:07:41
Sure, we basically try to repair everything. Is everything working? All the computers which are exposed in the visit, are all of them working? About 90% are working. Wow, and do you switch them on for the visits? Yes.
01:08:00
So that's why you have a huge bill. Yeah. And you don't use switching power supplies, which maybe use a little bit less to do that? No, for some, yes, for some, there are a few exceptions. For example, we have an Altair 8800,
01:08:21
but the one we have is a reproduction. It's not a real one. Well, first of all, the real one is impossible to get for a decent price. I'm not paying three, 4,000 euro or dollars for an Altair. While we have a very real reproduction,
01:08:42
we have the Altair 8800 clone. Secondly, the original Altair is quite power hungry. It's all based on TTL logic and there are CPU, there's no switching power supply in there. And the Altair 8800 clone is only using 1.5 volts.
01:09:04
So yeah, that's why we can do that. We don't have big screens over here. That's also one of the key things. We have the CRTs are usually 14 inch, maybe 15 inch, but that's it. We don't have much large screens,
01:09:20
also the television, all small ones. Do you also build things, you know, for example, I was thinking that sometimes when you have a console like the Vectrex, but it's very small and you would like to project anything, something, do you build things to expose, to show the computers to a larger audience or something? Do you have projects, electronics projects?
01:09:45
You mean that we really wanted to highlight stuff? Yeah, exactly. Well, actually that's something we were brainstorming about yesterday because we feel that if you come in here as a visitor,
01:10:01
it's overwhelming what you see at that point. And there's really a lot to see in the museum. We have really over 500 computers on display. And so if you come in, it's usually mind blowing how big it is, the actual building. And then inside it's completely filled
01:10:21
with computers everywhere. So we are going to put up some walls to block some views. And we're going to make a tour with highlights. So you can either grab a flyer for a Commodore tour or a flyer from Atari tour or the highlight tour
01:10:42
or the Dutch computer tour. And we use photos of small photos of the machine we want to show at that point. And hopefully with the tour, you can actually guide yourself through the museum and see what you want to see. Of course, you can still go to the entire museum
01:11:01
and watch everything, which is also possible, but I can tell you, you don't have enough time in the seven hours we're open every day. You don't have enough time in seven hours to see everything. So people can manipulate the computers a little bit or is it, okay. Yeah. And there was a question from Christoph
01:11:20
who was asking how do you train people to repair the computers, the old computers? Well, we use YouTube a lot. Yeah, I mean, come on. Now we have, obviously we have some knowledge for people. They usually something like older people,
01:11:44
not that old, but we have older people and they love to explain to the younger people who are interested in how things work and how things can be repaired. And then obviously we follow all these repair channels, all the YouTube channels.
01:12:01
We have made a big list, an extensive list with videos of how things should be repaired. I mean, there's a very clear explanation how a CRT screen works by- Do you produce yourselves new how-tos and do you produce some tutorials yourself?
01:12:23
Because that would be awesome. We are thinking to do that, but yeah, despite we're having 40 volunteers, there's a huge lack of money. Because there are people repairing, there are people doing, we have so many projects going on at one time,
01:12:43
at one given time. I mean, we're working on a game, we're working on artificial reality. We're working on that. We are rebuilding the museum that it's more museum friendly. We're repairing computers for customers, we're repairing computers for the museum.
01:13:02
And so if you're overwhelmed by all this, because you must be, do you also collaborate with other museums in Europe or on repairs, on exchanging your computers with them, et cetera? Yeah, we try to, we want to,
01:13:20
but so far we are now helping the Apple Museum, a new Apple Museum, starting in the Netherlands. We are helping them how to create a museum. We are repairing their computers because nobody else can do that. So it basically only gives us more work usually.
01:13:42
But now we are now in contact with a tectronics museum in America. There's a museum of tectronics. We are repairing a tectronics 4T51. We got recently and it was broken in many ways.
01:14:03
And we contacted them and they have a solution for something. We had one of the problems, it's about a Rome issue and such. And yeah, we are contacting them how you solved it. And they said to us, oh, we have a solution. Here it is. And they have a particular board created
01:14:20
for repairing those things. And they're going to send it to us. So yeah, in that way, we are collaborating. If we can't do, we are doing a lot of collaborating and trying to get stuff from other museums. And if other museums need stuff from us, we'll have more than happy to help.
01:14:40
I was, yeah, I was speaking to emo-sanq.com which is a big association in France where they have a huge collection of computers. And so they were thinking also about sharing and even probably giving back some computers to their members because they have too many.
01:15:02
And I know that sometimes you have not one Commodore 64, I'm sure you have at least 50 of them. So at some point you think, do you need all of them? That's a good question. We have created a rule for ourselves to prevent this.
01:15:23
And we have one rule for that. We only have three computers of each, of each distinguishable model. Meaning we have, for a Commodore 64, we have one in the museum, we have one in the storage as a backup
01:15:42
and one in the box. But there are at least eight different motherboards Yeah, but we're not doing the motherboard thing. For, I mean, it doesn't really matter how the motherboards, there's no big difference in the motherboards.
01:16:02
There's obviously the number of chips going down and that kind of stuff. But it's, we are a museum, we are telling stories. We are telling the story about, for example, the Commodore 64. And for the normal visitor, it really doesn't matter what motherboard is in there.
01:16:20
They see a Commodore 64 bread bin model and that's the model they remember. And yes, we do have the C64G, the Aldi version and the different, the C64C because those are visually different models. But the- Will you have a Mega 65?
01:16:42
Will you have also new hardware, new old hardware? Is it something you think is good to have in your museum? If we think it's good for the museum, then yes. Because you're telling a story and what I think is that the story still continues of old computers. I mean, there's so many enthusiasts.
01:17:01
Yeah, yeah. We try to have everything original to begin with. The Mega 65 is a great example. I don't, I'm not going to buy it. It's for me too expensive for something I really can't show at this point. And I'm not really interested in showing it
01:17:22
because we have an original Commodore 64 at least. I'd rather have an original Commodore 65. But then again, who doesn't? Everyone wants to have a Commodore 65. But we, the reason why we, if you get a 65, we'll show it.
01:17:41
If the Commodore, the Mega 65 was an exact copy, exact case, and it doesn't say Mega 65, but Commodore 65, the original label, everything is exactly the same, then we would consider it. But we call it then a Commodore 65 reproduction. And that's different.
01:18:01
So we do have new hardware. But that's a reproduction of the old. And we're not showing, in a museum at least, we're not showing modern hardware. But you know that in our, in this IT business or computer museum business,
01:18:24
the computers, old computers are not that old. I mean, for a normal museum, things are much older. So I guess when there's a new computer coming out in 2022, and you think it's going to be important in 30 years, you need to keep one.
01:18:41
So how do you know which ones are important? Well, that's also a little bit connected to what we say about the three of each rule. Because every computer, we try to keep at least three,
01:19:04
every distinguishable model. And in the 80s and 70s, 80s and early 90s, it's pretty easy. I mean, there's the Commodore 64, there's the Atari, you name it, that's a particular model. In the later, late 90s, you get a lot of clones
01:19:23
and a lot of clone boards and a lot of IBM PC clones. That's basically what happens at the late, late 90s and early 2000s. In that case, we keep some brands,
01:19:41
like we have Packer Bell and Dell, we keep them as a whole set. So including the monitor, including the keyboards, we try to keep them as a whole set. And we have a few spare boards, just random boards from any particular type of CPU.
01:20:04
So the 286, 386, 486, Pentium, Pentium 2, Pentium 3, et cetera, and we keep main boards from that. And cases, obviously, we try to keep the brands original, so Dell, Packer Bell, and that's the whole set.
01:20:22
But if you have the nameless clones, there are so many nameless clones and they only released one computer or two computers and they're really not that spectacular. And we just remove the main boards from it or keep it as is and yeah, keep them running. That's basically it.
01:20:41
We're not keeping all the many millions of clone computers. That's completely useless. Okay, but interestingly, you do keep new computers here for what's coming. So we are going to be cut off quite soon in three minutes.
01:21:01
So I think you can answer one last question. Just pick one. I think there's one about retrobriting, if you're doing retrobriting. Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. We have retrobrited a few computers over here because, well, one was a little bit of,
01:21:23
it was a tulip computer from, it was a relatively modern tulip computer, but it was more of a challenge. It was a computer, a Pentium 3 computer, which lived outside for a number of years. And we challenged ourselves to make it
01:21:41
as good as possible, so try to return it completely back to how it was in the shop. And I can tell you, we managed to do that. So we retrobrited that case, for example. But the method we're using, because that's probably the next question,
01:22:02
which method we're using, we just have a big box of peroxide, peroxide, liquid peroxide. We just put in what we want to bleach because retrobriting is nothing more than bleaching.
01:22:22
So we just put it in and put it on a heater for, let's say, 48 hours or 24 hours. And after 24 hours, we're fine. Okay, it's good enough. But yeah, we try not to do that too much because we think these computers lived and it's basically a scarce of how they were.
01:22:45
And it's how people remember those computers. Yeah, that makes sense in the line of telling a story so people remember how they were. Very interesting. The idea is people coming in here and they get nostalgic feelings.
01:23:00
And we're using the computer to get nostalgic feelings. And because people get their nostalgic feelings, people will tell stories. Yeah. And it improves the museum again. And that's really the spirit of your museum. And we all thank you again for your great presentation on these questions you answered.
01:23:22
So the next talk is about Trajectware from Christophe Ponsart. So just stay here and we can continue to ask answer questions in here. We are hanging around as long as you want.
01:23:43
So I think people will start joining into this channel if people want to hang out with you. Okay, yeah, sure. I'll wait, yeah, I'm fine. So everyone, even Christophe can.