we want to thank them for coming, for showing their support. We have a lot of people who are out there who have been listening to podcasts for as long as we've been stupid enough to record them, who have been stupid enough to listen to them for quite a long time. And this has been a very long road. And very interesting. About five years ago.

You sound so depressed. This has been a very long road. No, that's drunk, not depressed. Okay. I would like to start off today as always by introducing my co-host. First of all, Rich Mogul. Thanks, Marty. You're saying that because I took my pants off in my

last panel. I wasn't going to mention you're just roping it all. Not all of my pants, just the outer layer. And I really, really don't want to talk about other people who took their clothes off in your last panel either. No, no. Yeah. Ooh, the dollar. There's a

donation for the EFF. They were handed off with a case of hand sanitizer. Now that Rich has said hello, I'd like to introduce my other co-host, Zach Lagnier. How are you doing today, Zach? That was quite the applause. Rich, they don't really like you evidently. I'm

having a cool new haircut courtesy of my coworkers who feed me first. I just woke up with this hair. I promise. Does your girlfriend like it? She approves. As long as she

approves, I don't care what the rest of these people say. Well, you know, we started, I started this podcast about five years ago as I was saying. It started one day because I listened to a bunch of other people talk about what interested them. I heard people talk

about the things that were going on in their lives. Nothing to do with security. And then I heard this thing called security now. And I realized, you know, I could probably talk more directly to the people who were interested in security than they could. And even if they didn't, if I couldn't, I mean, I would get some feedback on how I could improve my own security career. Now that went on for a couple years. And then one

day I went, you know, I'm really getting burnt out on this. And at that point I turned to a friend of mine who had just left Gartner and said, you know, Rich, you really can't talk. You talk a lot. In fact, sometimes we have a hard time stopping you from talking. And would you come on the show with me and talk for a little while each

week? We do this half hour. I do this half hour thing. I think it would be a lot better to have you talk to me and us bounce ideas off of each other rather than just me talking. And Rich said something. What were you going to say, Rich?

No, no, we were just trying to figure out why the hell we agreed to do this. You know, I've been trying to figure that out. I was going to say, I've been trying to figure that out for four years. And then a couple years ago we had a ticket to give away to DEF CON and to Black Hat and we said, hey, would one of our listeners like to

come in and do this and do some podcasts, do some interviews from DEF CON and Black Hat. And this guy named Zach Lanier just kind of said, I'll do it. And ever since then, Zach, you've been a valuable member of the podcast. I don't know if I would say valuable. No, I was about to not be employed. So I

figured, hey, what better time than now to join network security podcast. Just in time to be a professional podcaster, move back in with your parents after losing your job? Yeah, well, I figured this failed. I can just go and be a social media strategist or something. And four and five years ago there weren't a lot of podcasts

out there. There weren't a lot of people who were willing to put their voice out there. But over time it has changed considerably. It's no longer just a few people. There are a ton of podcasts out there. There are some very good security podcasts. In fact, there are some that I will unashamedly say are much better than anything we do. And hopefully tonight we'll take a couple minutes to get some of those people

up on stage and talk to you. Who should we start with? Who's here? Well, only one of them seems to be here right now. And he's sitting in the front row. And I know you want to play with your phone more. And it was important. So come on up. We would like to invite up to the table Chris John Reilly. So Chris, which podcast do you do

again? I'm not really sure to be honest. I think it's called Eurotrash. So where can people find Eurotrash? On the interwebs. Just search for bad European security

podcasts will be the first one on the list. Chris is a great example of one of the best things about being a security podcaster is that over the last five years I've made some great friends and Chris is one of them. And there's not a lot of people who you can turn

to and know you're going to get support. Chris is one of them. Really? So Chris, being from the Eurotrash podcast, we're finding that it seems that a lot of the, you know, LulzSec and Anonymous being arrested is happening over in Europe. Do you have any

personal opinions on those particular douche bags? I mean people. Why are you calling Chris a douche bag? I didn't do it. It wasn't me and you can't prove anything. Yeah, I guess we just have the angriest hackers. I don't know. It's just the way things are.

I mean it's always been a European thing. Political activism and hacktivism has always been a big thing in Europe. I mean just look at CCC for example. It just seems to be the way things are in Europe right now. So I mean I made a disparaging statement there and it was unpurposely because I'm actually a firm believer in activism, hacktivism

as well and other kinds of social action when called for. But I'm getting the impression these are people that are just kind of messing around and breaking into things to break into things and using potential causes as excuses for activities they would probably engage in anyway. What do you think? Or am I just the douche bag? No, I mean people

just do it for fun. I mean you get bored late one night. You've been drinking too much. You hack a website. Why not say you're anonymous and put the information out there? Well I mean the name is sort of telling, Rich. LulzSec. I thought it was Louise Boat. Actually, Chris, you bring up a good point. I don't know if anybody has seen

one of these and what I'm holding up is this kind of pinkish orange card and you know somebody stopped me last night and out of the blue when I was having dinner with my family and said are you on the internet? Okay, this is Def Con. I avoid the internet at

all costs. Where else would I get my porn? Other places and my wife and kids are in the audience, please. So they handed me this little thing after saying are you on the internet? Well, no, not here, but I work for Akamai and we pretty much are the internet. So yes, I guess you could say I am. And you know it says Def Con 19. It has a

picture of the LulzSec guy or the anonymous guy and it says call this number at 2300 hours. Now what would you guys think if you received something like this? Does the word trap, does the word oh, this is going to be weird come to mind at all? Let's call it right

now. The number is and you might want to write this down. Wait, let me get my phone app up. You guys can call it at 2300 too because quite frankly I think it's a trap but if we can DOS them or DDOS them, I think it would be kind of funny. So the number is 1-402-672-8571.

Oh my God, that's my mobile number. I was going to say I heard from ‑‑ should we tell

them they're live on the network security podcast? All right. Well, that was pathetic. I heard for pissing off LulzSec, network security podcast got owned tomorrow. Now they have my cell phone number. So I've just been pwned. There's a guy in the front row with his laptop out already. Where were we going with that? You were the one talking, man. We

weren't going anywhere. We were following. Okay, I just wanted to get the number out there so somebody can figure out what that's supposed to be and what party it's supposed to be or if it really is a trap. So one of the other interesting things, I got a call, I ended up doing a press interview thing the other day about the NSA and other government

agencies recruiting at DEF CON. And it kind of seems strange to me that all of a sudden this would be in the news. How many people here have been to DEF CON before? How many people here have seen feds recruiting at DEF CON before? Yeah, it's been going on for quite a long time. Obviously. I see a smile, Zach. You got the Zach smirk.

There's something coming. We record over Skype and not on video. How would you know what the smirk looks like? You just hear it? Do you hear it over the Internet? Well, yeah. The green light by your camera, it means we're watching. That's because I let

you watch. We like to watch. Ouch. So I thought I'd get the opinions here. It's kind of interesting because there's these websites now, so this has happened within the last

week or so. Somebody did a big blog post on, what was it, don't sell out to the NSA or does anybody remember that one? I don't read. Okay. Well, great. It's going to be a really short show. Yeah. So there were a bunch of, there were apparently some big thing in the news about the anti NSA versus the NSA thing going here on DEF CON. I

thought I'd kick it over to these guys. Any opinions on that? Are you a sell out if you actually go try to get employed to do security and you just happen to also enjoy going to DEF CON? You know, if they want to recruit my kids, I don't care. Oh, come on, please say something. Banana hammock? I don't know. Banana, yes. That's the answer.

Wow. I mean, it's not like this shit hasn't been going on for years anyway. And since when has the news been important? I mean, face it, I've seen American news. Trust me. Oh, yeah. So it's, it's not bad. News of the world. Yeah. So Chris, actually to get

you, to get you, to get you talking, Chris, why did you start the Eurotrash podcast? What, what was the impetus for that? Um, I listened to the first episode of the show. I don't know. It seemed like a good thing to be doing. Everyone was podcasting and I

just thought I could be internet famous if I do this. Uh-oh. So, yay, I'm internet famous. For those who are listening to this after the fact, Paul and Larry just walked into the room and are launching hundreds of, well, not shmoo balls, but core security

balls. They are launching Paul balls. All throughout the room. People who want to play with Paul's balls. Everybody wants to play with Paul's balls. Who hasn't wanted to take one of Paul's balls to the face? So now we will have a moment of chaos while Paul throws his balls all around the world. Is this like a competitive thing? Like you just come in

and ruin our podcast? Yeah, you can't make it suck more, can you, Zach? I mean. And do not throw Paul's balls up here. By spawn he means his children who are in the audience.

You are the only two I have control over. All right, Paul, Larry, stop with the balls. Get up here, Paul, Larry. Just protect the alcohol. Get up here. Just so everybody

knows, in the last two years we've done a podcasters meet up and for whatever reason that just didn't get organized this year, but we kind of wanted to commemorate the episode 250 of the podcast and invite as many of the podcasters that we know up as

possible. I just have one question. Do you have a bottle opener? No, but I know somebody who does. Excellent. All right, I'm better now. So back to you, Chris, before somebody throws a ball at you. Why did you get involved in podcasting? I don't know. It just seemed like a good thing at the time. There wasn't a whole lot of coverage in Europe. Well, that was close. So what has been the single most important thing in

your podcasting career so far? Well, that would be joining you on the NetSake podcast episode 250. Good answer. Do I get paid now? No. $5. $10. People, what about not the

beer do you not understand? If they can get it, they can get it. So Paul and Larry,

now that you've joined us. Okay, for those that don't know, this is Paul and Larry from the Paul.com security podcast. Paul likes taking balls to the face. Paul got a face shot in Vegas. Sorry, you brought your family here. For those that don't know, I

think Paul and Larry got started just before Marty did. Nice one. They were the first real security podcast as opposed to security now, which is not really a security podcast. They

started about three or four days before I did, I think. Actually, you guys recorded several weeks before I did but didn't publish until weeks later. We're still working on that, actually. We had to figure out how to do a podcast, like how to publish it. You're still figuring it out. I've heard the editing quality that you guys have. That's

the capacity. So what made you guys decide to start podcasting? Well, for me, I gave a regular presentation to a university that I worked for. I liked the latest computer security news and stuff. So for whatever reason that ended and my coworker, who was referenced on the show as Ducksta, said you should do a podcast. And then we did.

Heads. So that's how we got started. So what it was in the beginning was just a security guys getting together at a conference or on a Friday night and having beers and talking about, hey, dude, did you hear about XYZ? Maybe we should record this. Maybe

someone else would want to listen to this. And sure enough, 250 something episodes later, people are still listening. What number are you guys on? I don't know. 54 is coming up. Maybe. And so what's the biggest event that's happened to you because of podcasting?

I don't know. That's a good question. Other than your job. We got a job. That's the rule on paul.com. You either have to work for a sponsor and then they become a sponsor or if you're on the show, go work for someone who is a sponsor. So we're pretty nice. Jericho's got some great accuracy over there. What have you been practicing

at home? You throwing squirrels in your backyard or something? Yeah, but he hasn't managed to hit me yet. He's not throwing these kinds of balls at them, though. But the faces are all cut out with a hole right around the mouth. What? That's Jericho

from attrition.org and you can tell he loves us. So I just have to say like one particular instance, but you know, certainly I think the marathon we did for hackers for charity, that was really cool to use our listeners and our podcast as a vehicle for a

good cause. It probably sticks out in my mind. It's gotten you a lot of attention. It's gotten you to places you couldn't go otherwise. I mean, it's been a good thing, hasn't it? Oh! And that was another dodge. People actually wanted my autograph.

Why? That's the weirdest thing about being a podcaster. You guys actually listen week after week. Right. It's amazing. I actually signed an autograph for a 16‑year‑old and a 13‑year‑old that both listened. And then I felt really bad for corrupting the youth

of America. As you should. Then he realized it was the DEFCON social engineering contest. Where was I going with that? I don't know. You can tell by the way that we do a lot of editing after the fact normally. Some of these things that we're going ‑‑ what

should we say next is actually something that happens quite a bit in the live podcast. For listeners, somebody just took the entire box of about 700 balls. I lost my ball!

Thanks for finding them. And putting your hands all over them. So this is ‑‑ yeah, antagonizing them. That's going to help us. All right. So one of the things we do on the podcast is always pick news stories and those sorts of things. Instead we've got you guys here in the audience. Let's get a little bit participatory. Somebody throw out a topic

you'd like us to talk about and for you yourself to talk about. Don't say balls. Goat porn. Whoa, wait. Don't leave that up there. All right. Who's got a topic other than balls or goat porn? Someone in the audience said APT to try and be funny and failed. How

about what? My co‑workers are hitting me with balls. DEFCON. Who brought the balls

anyway? You know what? That's a good one. We're on the late into basically the third day or the second full day of DEFCON. What have you guys seen so far that you liked? Fail panels. Anybody at the fail panel? That was a nice read. How the hell did that come from behind my head? Yeah, we made $800 for the EFF by you guys buying waffles.

So beer waffles, let's be clear. What? Blue waffles? Yeah. Okay. I lost that one.

So I'm going to cut it over to these guys. Paul, Larry. The go go dancers at the I bar. Yeah, nothing reminds me more about the importance of my job as a parent of two daughters than coming to Vegas. What about you, Zach? What stood out for you so far at DEF CON?

This. No, seriously. Seriously, this is the only thing I've really gone to. No, I like the hotel. It's weird that they would pick a hotel that they've already outgrown. I don't really

know where they could go from here. It's a good venue. I watched a couple talks on television. That's really the extent of my DEF CON experience so far. So this is becoming informative. Chris? Oh, this is going to be really informative. I didn't even know there were talks at DEF CON. I thought it was just like a big drink up thing

where everyone gets together. You guys are really good shots. This is turning into the SHMOOC on podcasts as we meet up all over again. It's like watching a tennis match.

All right. So I took a soccer ball to the pace yesterday. I would like to not have that happen again. We have a really important thing to play toward the end and if we don't

get to that. We'll let the SHMOOC balls go. You can throw a SHMOOC ball, I'm sorry, core impact balls when that happens. What was that? Yes, core impact balls. That is what I said. So we've got one more podcaster to bring up, Mr. Joseph Saccoli. Now one of the

sincerest forms of flattery is imitation and nobody imitates the network security podcast more than southern fried podcast. He's on paul.com now. Didn't you see twitter? Didn't you see the picture? I'm on paul.com now. I've been hanging out with them all

weekend. Big round of applause. You were also on the network security podcast for a little while as we traded you for Zach. There's an audience member question. We have a

question. Nobody wants to hear from Jericho. And Jericho says if every podcast he got to throw stuff at us, he'd listen more. I thought exotic liability was all about people getting hit in the face with balls. Ball being thrown. Who else is here? Where's

jaded? Is jaded security? You're jaded security? Oh, you're the co-host. Where is your other half? Who's three? Come up here and take some balls in the face. I thought he

was thrown out of the club. Come on up for a second, guys. Just give us a quick

second and tell us why you got into podcasting as opposed to just security. Why did you start podcasting? We listened to paul. You listened to paul and still got into podcasting? We didn't want to be paul. We listened to two episodes. You know this, man. So we

wanted to be. We're a daily podcast. We do it Monday through Friday. We've managed to

talk about everybody else by having LeGat on. Speaking of Mr. Chris Evans, we'll have some words from him later. Chris Evans is that actor. World number one hacker. Greg Evans

won an award today. He won charlatan of the year. It's just too bad. We didn't know that in time to include that in the questions for the interview. We're going to be playing in a few moments here. Is that Mr. Evans' award? The award for charlatan of the year is in

Jericho's hands which is really, really disturbing. But it will be going on ebay and

the proceeds will be going to a charity of his choice. So keep an eye out on that from attrition.org and on ebay. It's OSF or EFF. And by the way, if you guys want to leave any money up here for EFF, we will make sure it gets to them, I mean. We will not use it to

buy beer, I promise. So you guys were saying about why you got in security because you thought you could do it better than paul.com. No, that's a joke, dude. So it was just a bunch of guys that were on calls driving in Atlanta and the commute is like two

fucking hours. So essentially what we were doing was just kind of talking back and forth and saying, hey, did you read this story, did you see that, what did you think about that? And we made the mistake of recording it. And it made the mistake of saying

that it's a daily podcast. Paul lost his ball. So we made the mistake of recording Paul's balls. Paul's balls have been scattered all over the place. There's a reason why

Schmook is kept to Schmook on. You're using Rick to protect your laptop or protect his face. Stand in front of him. I don't need his ass on my face. So, Rich, we have

some recording we'd like you to hear of an interview. This is similar to an interview you guys have done. We only have a few minutes for it. We would like to hear your guys' reaction to some of the things that Mr. Gregory Evans has to say. Literally we had a half an

hour to talk to Mr. Evans a couple weeks ago. And in that half an hour we got to ask three questions. Three. Three questions. Because we found out that when you ask him a

question, unless you are willing to interrupt him in the middle of a tirade, you're going to keep hearing his answers again and again. And by the way, the panel is requiring. Hello, Mr. Evans, this is Martin McKay from the Network Security Podcast. Hey, how are you? I'm doing fine. I wanted to let you know I've got my

cohost, Rich Mogul and Zach Lagnier on the phone with me. Okay. Hello, everyone. Is this a one hour podcast? No, this is usually a half hour podcast and we're probably only going to do about a 15 to 20 minute interview. Okay. And what are we

going over again? Basically we wanted to talk about you and your company. Because you're obviously listed as the world's number one hacker. One reporter turned around and took it and ran it even with the book. So I tell that to everybody before I do.

Now remember, this is an individual who wrote a book, how to become the world's number one hacker. So I got people who work for me full time that do all of that. But no,

I am so far from world number one hacker. So with that being said, we can go ahead and start this if you like. And if it's okay, we might just ask you about that anyway. I'm going to fast forward a little bit. Some of you guys have also interviewed Mr.

Evans. You guys have also interviewed Mr. Evans. Did you get a chance to hear that? I listened to part of it. Especially the end where everybody started laughing the moment he disconnected. How are you doing today, Mr. Evans? So Mr. Evans, let's start with a little

bit of your background. I mean, you were convicted of hacking in the 90s. And how has that led you to a security career and how has that shaped your views of security?

Well, let's back up something. The first time I got in trouble was in the 10th grade. And my parents had to pay back $30,000 to AT&T debt in order to keep me out of jail. We used the school's computers and we were using the school's computers to make free

phone calls and having it billed to a third party number. And a friend of mine who was a programmer, and we were working on COBOL at the time, so that tells you how long ago. This was in the 80s. He was a software writer and he wrote it so it was randomly billed to a third party company. And it kept doing the exact same company over and over, which was

the Taco Bell Corporation. So at the end of the month, Taco Bell Corporation received $100,000 home bill. And they traced it back to myself and my whole conspiracy, let's

say. And this was in the 10th grade. And that's when I got in trouble and I had to leave school and I ended up going, because my parents were separated, and I left Maryland and went to Germany. And I lived in Germany. And that's where I learned to react some more when I got hooked up with the guys at the Chaos Club. I don't know if

you're familiar with them. The Chaos Club, by the way. Not to be confused with the Chaos Computer Club, but the Chaos Club. They're lesser known guys out of Belgium, not quite Germany. Yeah, we've heard of them and even dealt with a few of those people before. Okay, well, they were their first original acting groups. See, it's funny because most of

the people, when I was doing acting, I was told years ago, is that one thing you don't do is go around bragging about your hacks. Because what you're doing is, is against the law. See, that's the difference between a lot of hackers to this day. There's a lot of hackers out there that can out-hack me all day long, because I don't even hack anymore, I'm a businessman. So, but what ends up happening is that they'll go out and commit a great

hack. And then they will go out on Twitter, Facebook, or one of the chat rooms, IRC, and they will brag about, hey, I hacked. Why do that? Why bring attention to yourself? It's just like a person who goes out and commits a crime. Who robs a bank and

then goes out and brags to all his friends, I just robbed a bank, and thinking that nobody's going to know that it was you. The only way two people can keep a secret, Benjamin Franklin said, is if one of them did. So in this particular case, for years, I was always told, never go out and brag about it. Are you into the money or are you into the fame? And all the way up to the time I was hacking, and when I was hacking, there

was different ways of doing it. I mean, one, you could do social engineering. One, with my very first hack, we were using war dialers and we were calling every number in the company to get access to the modem. Two, when we had access to AT&T, MCI,

Sprint, and we were setting up toll-free numbers for a third-party telephone company, we just had most of the people inside the company on payroll. Now, when we started hacking, most of the people who go out and say, oh, he's not hacking, he's not doing this. Please, some of them weren't even born then. Ten years, I mean, there was a 19-year-old kid

who was going out talking stuff. 19 years. I've been in business for 20. So 19 years, I'm 42 now. So I mean, you weren't even around to even say what you did if you didn't. So most people didn't even know my name because I didn't even hear if I made a name as a hacker or not. All right, you guys want me to continue with this or fast forward to the really good spark? Okay, hold on. All right, so this is going to be the

last just three minutes of the interview. It's awesome. So the other parts were what? I can't. The software got it running right now. So here we go. I'm sorry. Yeah, I just wanted to interrupt for a second because, you know, in part

‑‑ so the question I'm asking right now is what's your ‑‑ you brought a bunch of interesting issues. We're very interested in it. What you're getting here, what do you overall talk about a lot of the issues in the industry and how security is perceived by just average folks over Barnes and Noble. How security is perceived by just average

folks over Barnes and Noble. What's the end goal here? Is it, you know, what do you personally hope to do with your involvement with the industry? Is it just to build successful business? Is it to go out there and actually help people become more secure? You know, for you what would be the end game?

Actually, there's a couple of things. One, I want to change the game. Because right now everybody out there has this idea in their head that Hollywood has put out there that all computer nerds, all computer hackers are ‑‑ so just in case you missed

that while balls are being thrown at us, Gregory Evans wants to change the game. For those computer nerds. He wants to change the game. He wants ‑‑ not make things more secure, just change the game. So whatever the game means. That little kid with coat bottle glasses with the tape in the middle who's in his mom's face, they're playing on the computer, never got the girl, never got pictures of the

basketball team and that's not true. Computer hackers carry just as much power as anybody else in the world and can be just as dangerous as anybody else in the world. Especially when they have body guards with guns. I was speaking to someone about how dangerous hackers are compared to Al Qaeda. Wait, you're going to miss the Al Qaeda

reference. Al Qaeda, you know who your enemy is. You've got people in the field. You can see them, they can see you. You can shoot at them, they can shoot When it comes to computer hacking, there's no face. It's like the boogeyman. It's like the boogeyman. And you have to find out. You know a crime has been

committed, but how do you catch it? So my whole end game is to bring more light to like, look, computer hacking is here, it's here to stay, and you guys, all you guys who went around and picked on those computer nerds in high school, these guys have power. So now, not just hackers, but just computer people, period.

So I want to turn around and change the whole game and bring more knowledge to everything that's happening out there in addition to that, make it more of almost like a lifestyle. When some of my friends were entertainers, such as Russell Simpson. So just in case you missed that, what he's referring to is he has a store

where he sells swag, effectively swag that you can wear to talk about how awesome of a hacker you are, including, you know, some of them feature the faces of some of the people in the audience. But wait, Zach. Didn't he say that there were

plenty of people who could out hack him? Well, no, the thing is, it's wrong to go and talk about how awesome of a hacker you are unless you're buying a shirt from him that talks about how awesome of a hacker you are. Oh, that makes perfect sense. And he's never been to DEF CON, has he? I think we've given this ass hat too much floor

space already. Don't you want to hear the part where he's hanging with Russell Simmons and Puffy? It comes up in just like within the next 30 seconds. When I'm sitting back and I'm talking to them years ago and they were coming

out with their clothing line and they were sitting back telling me one time we were at a club, well, we were at dinner before we went to the club, I should say, and we were sitting back talking at the table and he was saying how he makes, how hip hop has become more of a lifestyle. The way people talk is more than people picking up a microphone and just rapping. You don't have to be a rapper to be part of hip hop. And whereas in

security, when it comes to computer hacking, it has become a lifestyle of its own. So in the hacker community. So this is from a person who has been tweeting that he's going to be here that is not here. He owes me dinner, by the way. It's a group of people.

Just a, I don't know, we're running short on time. So spoiler alert, he wants to be more or less, more or less like the voice of the hacker community. The hacker community

wants to help change the game so people recognize how powerful hackers are and he's going to be the one to do it. So whatever that means to you. While wearing super cool swag. His parents had to repay already how much, whatever he said, $30,000 or anything else. Is that it? We've got more, but I think people are tired of the

interview already. So we can move on. By the way, this is a record people can't even tolerate five minutes of this guy prerecorded. So, yeah. The ass dollar. We lost the ass dollar. Someone in the EFF has the ass dollar. One of the EFF bankers will have the ass

dollar. We could make a new ass dollar. Who wants to help make an ass dollar? I have too nice of an ass to make the ass dollar. To be honest, it's not just. Yeah, Jericho, get up here. We need an ass dollar. We need an ass dollar.

Give it to us from a distance. It's your ass. He has balls. Literally balls. I'm not touching that. It hasn't been anywhere yet. It's not converted yet. Come on. It was in

my pocket. Exactly. Enough of this. We're going down the wrong road. Let's bring it over. If you want the most amusing part of Evans, changing the game, search for his rant called changing the game. It's on either GregoryDEvans.com or Legat. You read that and

it will really explain who he is. All this podcast fits right into it. It's worth it for that one rant. That really comes down to the difference between somebody like Gregory Evans and us. We are part of the community. We are here for you guys to

talk to us and to give feedback and throw balls at us. All of us are part of the community. I don't think there's anybody up here who would disagree with that. I think that's why we are different, I hope. We don't own penny stock companies. We don't

swindle people. That would make us different as well. We don't get our mail spools dropped. 7.5 gigs of them. Is that a challenge? No, it's not a challenge. No, Joseph, because it's just not going to happen. But I did hear I got owned tomorrow. So we've been all over the place right now with this. This is definitely even less

structured than an actual podcast. It is. It's more alcohol involved than a normal podcast. This is a normal podcast for jaded exposure. Only less alcohol. I have a question. There's no ducks either. There's tons of ducks with jaded exposure.

I was going to ask the question, why do you guys listen, and I don't want to know. You like it? Say that louder. Hey, we're in Vegas. What? Eternal optimism. In

other words, you think we might get better someday? Yeah, not going to happen. Everybody up here is just rich Zach and I. After 250 episodes, no. Yeah. Well, just before we wound this thing up, I couldn't let 250 episodes go without buying you a present, and I saw this and I just couldn't not buy it. So it is

signed. But I couldn't find Rick Astley, so I got Rick Hayes to sign it instead. So never going to give you up. Never going to let you down. I've never seen one

of these. What is it? It's broken already. Don't worry. It will never be played. We're breaking up. I'm sorry. But we've already committed to Malta, and my wife has already agreed. Okay, so like many of our shows, this is a

time where we've gone well past when we should have ended, and we finally realize it. So we want to thank you guys for showing up for this. We want to thank you guys for supporting all of the shows for all of the different podcasters up here. All my balls. It's kind of cool, you know, when we record these things and we put them out there, we get random tracking stats,

numbers. We know that real people listen to this stuff. It's kind of cool. So before we go, what are all the podcasters we have here? We have John. Joseph. From the Southern Frat Security Podcast. We have. Bones from Jaded Exposure. We have. Infosec Daily. You're a trash security podcast.

Paul from Paul.com. Just want to say congrats on 250, guys. It's awesome. Larry from Paul.com, Security Weekly. Sorry. That was loud. Why do I always want to spell it? W-E-A-K-L-Y. Jericho, I've

listened to less than five podcasts in my life. But you've given us plenty to talk about. No one wants Jericho to listen to their podcast, because then he'd just send us hate mail afterwards. That's a

blessing. He doesn't already send you hate mail? Is that just me? All right, Marty, why don't you close this out like every week. Well, this has been another episode of the Network Security Podcast. Thank you.